If I had to guess, I would say Kristol has tricked again by an obvious fake letter.

Isab,

Unfortunately all of the available evidence at the moment suggests this letter is in fact genuine.

This has been confirmed by the New York Times, NBC, as well as a variety of other news outlets that have each confirmed the authenticity with the white house.

Even if you were so inclined to disregard all of these news organizations because you suffer from the believe that only severely conservative leaning news outlets can be trusted (which in and of itself would be extremely delusional)... it is also confirmed by Fox News here:

"https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-erdogan-letter-turkey-syria"

Do you have any evidence at all that this letter is fake?

If not you are really deep into tin foil hat territory.

Yes, it's a simplistic letter with third grade grammar usage. We all know, and knew in 2016, that Trump is not a well-read or well-spoken individual.

However, let's keep in mind to whom this letter is being sent. The recipient is not a Harvard-trained linguist. The recipient is a brutal Third-World dictator.

And English is not Erdogan's first language, if he speaks it at all. Keeping such a letter simple makes it easier to translate, to be understood on the receiving end.

Trump is walking a thin line here, between the Kurds, who have no nation and the Turks, who are our NATO allies. He's trying to avoid a war with Turkey over the Kurds, while trying to defend the Kurds from Turkey as well. Standing firm in a fictional Kurdistan while PKK fighters set off bombs in Ankara and Damascus is not a viable option.

What happens if the US attacks a Turkish brigade while defending Kurdish fighters and Erdogan invokes Article 5? Are we willing to risk a war with NATO?

Hostilities in that part of the world run old and deep. How many of our sons and daughters are we willing to send to die in order to defend the Kurds? How many years will we keep our sons and daughters in the Middle East, refereeing animosities that are thousand of years running and don't involve our interests?

I'm not a huge Trump fan, but I'll agree with him on getting out of endless wars in the Middle East. Like any briar patch, getting out is trickier and more difficult than getting in was.

I'm sure that if the letter were reviewed and wordsmithed by a committee of 17 Ivy League graduates at the State Department, it would be much more effective.

If only we had a John Kerry strongly-worded memo.

I know we all hope this turns into the Peace-Prize winner, the light worker, Pres. Obama's greatest success - Libya - in which American intervention led to slave markets, and the nation with the greatest standard of living in Africa was brought to inter-tribal warfare that still rages, and the dictator known for wanting to liberalize Islam and back away from the hard line of Saudi Arabian Wahabbianism was assassinated by illiterate American-back thugs on the hood of a jeep so that no dictator anywhere is willing to negotiate a transfer of power with the United STates.

If only Pres. Trump could speak with the eloquence of the Light Bringers Obama, Clinton, Power, and French-Kerry.

Meanwhile, in London, an Extinction Rebellion activist is self-glued to a train. David Thompson and his gang of minions discuss.

Fave comment, so far, from Burnsie: "Ya gotta admit, 'Extinction Rebellion' sounds a whole lot cooler than 'Cluster B Collective.'"

This has been confirmed by the New York Times, NBC

Ah, bastions (seems to be my word of the day!) of truth telling, even with this president. Meanwhile, one of them allowed their senior staff to have actual rape rooms (Laurer), and spiked adverse stories about Harvey Wienstein. They're only marginally more believable than CNN.

Of course Captain Bill (ahoy!) never met a foreign military entanglement he didn't love to get the US involved in. And the Dems? amazing how they're always opposed to the next war, except the ones they favor.

Let's take an example where Trump spoke above the chattering class of trash-flingers:

'The United States and Italy are bound together by a shared cultural and political heritage dating back thousands of years to ancient Rome,' Trump said.

And idiots who think they are smart claim that statement means that Trump asserted a military alliance between the US and Italy since Ancient Rome.

If Trump speaks above you guys who hate him, you intentionally twist the words. Of course the US founders mimicked Rome. Of course they invoked Rome. Of course the cultural traditions of the West are a political heritage going back to Ancient Rome.

So perhaps he chose to be blunt so that there was no chance it could be misunderstood, or rather, intentionally twisted by the Kristol bloc of lunatics.

How much has Bill Kristol destroyed himself over Donald Trump? Which left-wing billionaire is paying for his lunch at the Bulwark, or whatever collapsed P.O.S. anti-Trump hard-on newspaper he's running today?

Are we willing to risk a war with NATO?

They don't exactly make me quake in my boots. When push comes to shove, the US is NATO.

If the Turks want to play with Russian fire, let them. Just so long as the understand that if they get burned, any Article V request will be rejected.

Protecting the Clerisy.

https://twitter.com/Heminator/status/1184464825889492992

Not understanding your base readership. Or, to paraphrase Instapundit GQ changed into Vogue so quietly I didn't notice.

GQ is rejecting men as a readership.

"One way we've addressed it is by making a magazine that isn't really trying to be exclusively for or about men at all."

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1184092088977297408

Unclear on the concept of what it means to be a Catholic university. Particularly a Jesuit school.

The decision of the president of Seattle University (SU), a Catholic Jesuit school, to remove the name of Planned Parenthood from its list of student healthcare resources has sparked protests from some students, faculty, and alumni. About 1,000 SU students, faculty, and alumni have pushed back against the decision by Father Stephen Sundborg, S.J., reported the Seattle Times.

Protesters delivered a letter to Sundborg that said they “firmly denounce the administration’s removal of Planned Parenthood from advising resources.”

The letter added that protesters are “frustrated with administrative decisions that do not consult or reflect the beliefs of your students.”

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/15/jesuit-school-presidents-removal-of-planned-parenthood-from-student-resources-sparks-protest/

I would remind those upset that the University of Washington is just up the road a piece, about 12 minutes by car, 20 minutes by light rail, 30 minutes by bike, and about an hour on foot. And probably a hell of lot less expensive.

Rome's Heroes and America's Founding Fathers

Journal of the American Revolution, October 23, 2018

I R A Darth Aggie Says:

"Ah, bastions (seems to be my word of the day!) of truth telling, even with this president."

Unfortunately facts and reality do not care about your feelings.

All of the available evidence across the board suggests that that poorly written, childish, note was composed by the guy sitting in the white house.

You can either acknowledge that reality and its implications... or you can continue to live in crazy town and don your foil cap to keep out the mind control rays of the lizard people.

Conan Says:

"We all know, and knew in 2016, that Trump is not a well-read or well-spoken individual."

Maybe you all should inform Trump... because he continually refers to himself as a "stable genius". As you may or may not be aware, with reference to this particular event Trump claimed he had "great and unmatched wisdom":

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1181232249821388801?lang=en

None of this constitutes the behavior of a person who is fit for office, or really any job.

As a test I suggest you walk around your place of work constantly declaring yourself to be a "stable genius" and sending out e-mails to coworkers referencing your "great and unmatched wisdom". See how long that lasts before someone brings you into a room for a conversation.

You know this guy is totally off the rails, but all you can muster is "I'm not a huge Trump fan"?

That is just hedging so after all of this is resolved you will suddenly disassociate yourself as if you weren't constantly defending his erratic and criminal behavior.

I seem to remember you haven't much more to critique Obama about than defending his actions while claiming you aren't a huge fan.

This has got to be really embarrassing to watch when so many folks told you ahead of time this was the type of nonsense that was on the horizon.

All of the available evidence across the board suggests that that poorly written, childish, note was composed by the guy sitting in the white house.

I'm sorry that the message was too childish and simple for you to understand. It came thru clear as a bell. But then, I'm a dumb ass.

We were told that Trump would get us in a war with the Norks. Or Iran. Or someone else. And still...we haven't. Strange, that. Especially since you claim he's "totally off the rails".

Sorry, Artie. Can't spare the man. He fights.

To the friends on our left screaming about a betrayal of the Kurds:

But, again, more irony abounds. Those on the left now screaming about loyal allies, and the ignominy of selling out friends, had no problems abandoning the Vietnamese and Hmong to Communist retaliation. They have demanded abject withdrawals from both Afghanistan and Iraq, which could lead to slaughter in the former case, and actually did in the latter, by creating a void that birthed the mass-murdering ISIS in Iraq.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/kurdish-syrian-turkish-ironies/

To members of Congress also protesting, I give you Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Go on. You've made your desires public, and you have the power to make it real. Do it. What, you'd rather blame the warmongering on Trump when it comes time to stand for re-election?

I R A Darth Aggie,

Good grief... this is pathetic.

Darth, maybe we should assume that one reason we haven't had a war yet is that every foreign country is afraid that if we did, Trump wouldn't hesitate to use nukes. Even at the worst time and worst places.

That doesn't make him safe for AMERICANS.

Btw, here's an ALLEGED reaction to the letter:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50080737

So far, Fox and the National Review have chosen to trust the BBC and make the same claim.

(I can't understand why the more professional members here don't do a little more Googling before calling something a definite "fake" or not. At any rate, this story is a little newer, so I'm not about to jump to any conclusions.)

Lenona Says:

"I can't understand why the more professional members here don't do a little more Googling before calling something a definite "fake" or not."

As far as I can tell some folks aren't at all interested in discerning facts that are inconvenient for the narrative they would like to believe.

Isab just "guessed" it was a fake without looking for confirmation... which suggests she knows the way the letter is written is stupid and is an embarrassment for the entire country.

Conan seems to acknowledge it is real and childish, but then bends over backwards to align with his perceived thoughts behind it... despite the extraction operation being a complete bungle so far.

Aggie apparently thinks the letter is "clear as a bell" and has no criticisms about it or the execution of the non-existant plan at all.

There are no principles here to be found as far as I can tell.

As far as I can tell by checking and cross referencing numerous news outlets the letter is real.

My prediction is once everyone is satisfied it is real everyone will align with Aggie and declare it a piece of strategic brilliance.

This is the behavior of sheep, not independent thinkers interested in facts.

I can only imagine what these same people would have said if Obama removed troops from Syria and within a week captured ISIS fighters escaped from prison. They lost their minds at far less.

And while we're all deploring Trump's penmanship -- so "statesmanlike" diplomatic gobbledygook is superior? -- THE LEFT ROLLS ON!*

*courtesy of a "woke" corporation that makes "period-resistant" underwear.

The letter is so bad, that it's even worse than THIS!

I can't understand why the more professional members here don't do a little more Googling before calling something a definite "fake" or not."

Displaying a glaring lack of understanding of what google is, and how it works. Not to mention complete oblivion to the definition of actual evidence and where the burden of proof lies.

Someone needs to go back and dig up the early posts on the Rolling Stone UVA rape hoax.

I present you the forbidden dumpling.

https://twitter.com/NatureisScary/status/1182840060267433984

Nature is Scary, Chapter Two: Swimming Kitty.

Isab,

Amy provided you a copy of the letter.

I provided you a fox news link supporting the authenticity of the letter.

Lenona provided you a BBC link supporting the authenticity of the letter.

All of the new organizations claim to have verified the authenticity with the white house.

At what point will you come to the realization that the available evidence supports the notion that this is a real event?

The burden of proof has been met until such a time as contrary evidence comes to the forefront.

Invoking a hyperbolic doubt to all things you happen not to like is not a sign of rational thought.

Isab:

That still doesn't explain why you chose to jump to conclusions. Most of the time, there's no harm in NOT jumping to conclusions.

And believe me, I don't rely on obscure (or brand-new) media sources just because Google is capable of finding their websites.

Ok. Assuming the letter is real, And the only real proof is Trump verifying it, I want to ask the gentle readers here:

What gets the point(s) across better? This letter? Or Anything, on any topic, written by Artemis/Orion in the last four years?

The US and Turkey have agreed to a 5-day cease fire.

Isab:

That still doesn't explain why you chose to jump to conclusions. Most of the time, there's no harm in NOT jumping to conclusions.

And believe me, I don't rely on obscure (or brand-new) media sources just because Google is capable of finding their websites.

lenona at October 17, 2019 4:12 PM

The fact that you rely on media web sites at all shows a childish level of naïveté.
All of it second and third hand information at best.

I didn't jump to a conclusion . The burden of proof is on the other side.

We have the head of the intelligence committee in the HOR reading out loud fake transcripts of a telephone call and you trust these people? Geez Louise...

Lost in the weeds you people.

You probably still believe that George HW Bush “loves” pork rinds.

The fact that you rely on media web sites at all shows a childish level of naïveté.
All of it second and third hand information at best.
_____________________________________

Does that mean that when it comes to YOUR preferred newspaper, you only believe the hard copy and wouldn't believe any article it published online, per se? Or what?

I don't get it.

Does that mean that when it comes to YOUR preferred newspaper, you only believe the hard copy and wouldn't believe any article it published online, per se? Or what?

I don't get it.

lenona at October 17, 2019 5:07 PM

To answer your question I don’t automatically believe any of it. If I am looking at data I need to use to make a decision I ignore journalists in general. Hard copy or internet.

Okay, so it is real.
Okay, so Trump wrote it.
Okay, so it is a "cartoonish" style.
Okay, so what's the point?

Anything Trump does or doesn't do is hated by those who hate Trump to no end.

At this point I do not care what Trump haters think. They have marginalized themselves with their talk of Trump is a _______ (insert any name such as clown, fool, crazy man, bigot, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, Hitler, evil, fascist, rapist, woman-hater, liar, cheat, etc.) projection rants.

> At this point I do not care
> what Trump haters think.

The loyalties of a seventh-grader

BREAKING: Vice Pres. Mike Pence: "Today, the United States and Turkey have agreed to a ceasefire in Syria."

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1184887924363542528

Isab Says:

"Ok. Assuming the letter is real, And the only real proof is Trump verifying it, I want to ask the gentle readers here:
What gets the point(s) across better?"

We've come full circle as I predicted.

First the letter was so clownish you assumed it had to be a joke.

Now that you concede the possibility it is in fact real, suddenly it is getting the point across.

Unbelievable and pathetic.

The loyalties of a seventh-grader ~ Crid at October 17, 2019 7:38 PM

In some ways, I can understand loyalists circling the wagons. Since before the inauguration, the Democrats have been screaming that they're going to "impeach the m**********r!"

If the Dems had only waited, they could have avoided the pall of partisan politics hanging over their impeachment efforts and could have gotten some Republicans on board from the beginning. Instead, they went all out announcing their intention to overturn the election results in a procedural coup d'etat. Things other presidents were allowed to get away with nary a squeak are high crimes and misdemeanors when Trump does them.

The Dems have snidely impugned the electoral system that has worked reasonably well for over 200 years, claiming the Electoral College is a relic of slavery (isn't everything they don't like?). This is the same electoral system that they supported when it gave us Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Barack Obama.

When your guy, even if you despise him on a personal level, is under constant attack by partisan and hyperbolic opponents, you tend to rally to his defense. Whether he deserves your support matters not at that point. The enemy of my enemy....

Perhaps Republicans shouldn't rally 'round him. Trump is doing to the Republicans what Obama did to the Democrats, he's wiping out their bench; sucking all the air out of the room and leaving them with a candidate roster for the next election that looks like a clown car.

Fortunately for the Republicans, they have a never-Trump contingent from which to draw candidates for the next election and won't be stuck with corrupt DAs, failed mayors, and defeated Senate candidates hogging the spotlight.

Impeachment won't be the cure-all the Democrats are hoping for. It will be destructive and will open wounds that will take decades to heal, if at all -- even for never-Trumpers. And couching the proceedings in secrecy, like Schiff is doing, will only make the fallout worse.

The better bet would have been to let Trump be Trump and defeat himself soundly in the next election. However, with their depleted bench, this is something the Dem's current roster of candidates appears incapable of doing.

With their frenzied attacks on anything Trump and spirited defense of Joe and Hunter Biden, the Dems appear incapable of understanding the voter frustration and anger that led to Donald Trump being elected.

When the drug-addled son of a pandering politician -- one who's never held any other job -- is hired by an entity with business before his father for a $600,000 a year job in a field in which he's unqualified, voters smell a rat. Same thing when an entity with business before the State Department donates millions to the Secretary of State's "charity" - a rat. Even if there is no rat, voters smell something foul.

Established politicians of both parties go to Congress with middle-class savings and emerge wealthy. Who wouldn't smell a rat?

The voters knew what Trump was and elected him anyway. He was a non-politician, a loud-mouthed working-class oaf - Stanley Kowalski in an ill-fitting suit. That alone tells you what they thought of their politicians and the mess those politicians have made of the government, at all levels.

Conan Says:

"In some ways, I can understand loyalists circling the wagons. Since before the inauguration, the Democrats have been screaming that they're going to "impeach the m**********r!""

Why are the facts you present always distorted or wrong.

Rashida Tlaib said the aforementioned "impeach the m**********r!" in January 2019.

Trump was innagurated in January 2017... a full two years earlier.

I think you are confusing things Conan.

It was the Trump campaign that continually chanted "lock her up" with regard to imprisoning his political opponent during the campaign leading up to the 2016 election.

Regardless of any events the wagons would have been circled because the evidence shows that conservatives almost never hold their own to account even for gross violations of conduct or even the constitution.

I heard an interesting quote that I think it relevant.

For at least some conservatives, if they had to choose between a democracy that didn't represent their conservative beliefs and a dictatorship that did... they would more quickly abandon democracy than concede defeat on conservatism.

Such a stance is about an unamerican as it gets.

Well, this did not age well. The letter worked perfectly: there is now a ceasefire that may become permanent.

Trump wins again! #MAGA

Conan,

Also... Trump voters thought he was "working-class"???

Even you cannot believe the standard Trump voter is that ignorant or stupid.

The guy never worked a day in his life outside of being the boss of an inherited business from his father.

The guy inherited hundreds of millions of dollars that he never worked to produce... and folks thought it was "working-class"???

This guy has melted your brain.

Dalai,

The letter didn't "work perfectly" unless you define the escape of ISIS fighters as all part of Trumps master plan... and to what end would he want those ISIS fighters to be free?

The entire point is that he is like a bull in a china shop.

If he had engaged with the pentagon an extraction plan could have been created without the ensuing chaos.

Your argument is akin to saying everything is fine after someone just took a shit on your living room floor because they later agreed to stop defecating on the carpet for a few days.

"The letter worked perfectly: there is now a ceasefire that may become permanent."

Maybe not so perfectly.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/trump-is-letting-turkey-bully-the-united-states.html

Yes, dumbass, Talib’s quote was from 2019, but Warren’s efforts to force a redefinition of conflicts of interest, in a bill specifically tailored to facilitate a future Trump impeachment, date from December 2016, before the inauguration. Both The Independent and Vanity Fair described the bill in 2016 as laying the groundwork for a future Trump impeachment.

And, yes, Trump is working class. Class is not entirely your income or your current economic status, it’s your background, your outlook, your social behavior. Trump is a working class oaf with a lot of money.

Conan,

You get extremely aggressive when you get all of your facts completely and utterly wrong.

Trump brought impeachment upon himself by continually violating the law and the constitution.

That had nothing to do with Talib, or Warren, or anyone else.

This is a mess of his own making.

Needless to say I can't really take you calling me a "dumbass" while you are down on your knees before our "stable genius" of a president who has "unmatched wisdom".

You've become a joke, and for what?

Trump was never "working class" Conan... "working class" don't get 5 draft deferments supported by fake medical issues, the upper class gets those.

"Working class" folks do not get a 6 figure salary from their daddy from the time they are 2 years old... the upper class gets those.

If you believe for one second that Trump has a "working class" mentality then your mental capacities are beyond redemption.

This is the same guy who continually claims you need an ID to purchase groceries... only someone who has never set foot into a grocery store in their entire life would be that obtuse.

The guy is crude yes... working class?... not a chance.

Artie, don’t conflate wealth with class, nor income with wealth.

Conan,

Just because Trump is crude and has no class doesn't mean he is "working class".

You must think very poorly about working class folks if you think Trump is in any way like working class people.

Most of the working class folks I know use things like "Sir" and "mam" and are respectful, dignified, and polite.

Trump is not like any of those people and doesn't think like they do.

He doesn't see himself as one of them either.

🙄

Let’s see. Trump likes tv, football, pro rasslin’, and fast food. That has “proletarian” written all over it.

Harry Truman was a working class guy, a decent human being, and a decent president. I’ve nothing against the working class.

Conan,

So the hallmark of the working class is that they like to watch TV and each fast food???

Really... that's it?

How about you give a comprehensive description of what working class means.

I happen to know tons of working class people that enjoy home cooked meals and spending time with their family playing board games.

All you've done is defined working class as the lowest common denominator in terms of activities and food.

Working class folks don't just sit around all day watching TV eating hamburgers and fries from fast food places.

Good lord.

So whom DO you trust, Isab?

Conan,

Just a story for you to consider while you are on this bizarre quest to prove that Trump is in some sense a down to earth regular guy.

This is Trumps retelling of how he reacted to another human beings grievous injury:

“So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head, and I thought he died. And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away,” said Trump. “I couldn’t, you know, he was right in front of me and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him… he’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible. You know, beautiful marble floor, didn’t look like it. It changed color. Became very red. And you have this poor guy, 80 years old, laying on the floor unconscious, and all the rich people are turning away. ‘Oh my God! This is terrible! This is disgusting!’ and you know, they’re turning away. Nobody wants to help the guy. His wife is screaming—she’s sitting right next to him, and she’s screaming.”

He was more concerned with the look of a marble floor than the fact that someone might need immediate medical attention.

That he sits around all day watching TV and eating fast food just makes him fat and lazy... not working class.

Do you honestly think if Trumps life depended on it he could change the oil on a car?... does he even know how to pump gas? Could he fix a leaky faucet?... can he build anything?... could he identify a socket wrench if you asked him to?

The guy is a trust fund baby who watches TV and eats French fries.

The guy has never done an honest hard days work in his entire life... but apparently he is working class because he likes to watch television.

Last point for now:

You keep saying that you want to disentangle wealth and class.

That isn't the issue here though. Words have definitions and meanings.

Working Class for example is defined in the following way:

1 - those persons working for wages, especially in manual labor.
2 - the social or economic class composed of these workers.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/working-class?s=t

Trump doesn't work for wages by doing manual labor. He never has in his entire life.

You are twisting and contorting yourself into knots to make being working class about being a couch potato who eats McDonalds. However that isn't what it means to be working class.

A person who works in construction and comes home to healthy home cooked family meals isn't suddenly part of the elite because they aren't stuffing themselves with empty calories and processed food.

You are avoiding the actual meanings of words because you don't want to call Trump what he actually is... a spoiled fat and lazy rich kid who never really grew up.

Artie, you’re being far too literal here.

A person who embodies working class traits does not actually have to work for a living. We’re talking social class here. Fred Trump started out in the building trades, working construction sites in NYC. Working class Fred Trump did not inculcate in his son the traits of the upper classes, although Donald has learned to imitate a few of those traits without really understanding them.

Trumps is classic nouveau riche: tacky, loud, and out of place in the parlors of established families. He doesn’t really fit in and doesn’t know why. People who work for him say he’s more comfortable among working folks than among financier or high society types.

Think Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack.

Conan,

I am not being "too literal"... There is no meaningful definition of working class that would include someone like Donald Trump.

I agree with you that Trump fits the classic definition for crude "new money" because he is one generation out.

If you want to say he is crass new money you will get no disagreement from me. However just because he has some behaviors that don't fit with the "old money" types doesn't suddenly make him working class either.

When you said that Truman was working class, that was real. Truman grew up on a farm and after college spent time sleeping in hobo camps while job hopping. That is real working class.

Trump just has some crude habits that you are associating with the working class, but there are lots of actual working class people who don't partake in those habits.

Many would actually find it deeply insulting for you to attribute eating fast food all the time as part of their social strata.

“Arrrrrgh! Assholes do vex me!” ~ Robin Williams

Artie, you are the least-well-read person on this blog. I’ve implored you before: please, for God’s sake, read a book once in a while.

Try this one for this discussion. It’s a little out of date, but still relevant:

https://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253

Artemis, you work so hard to present yourself as a snide, pedantic prig.

Are you and Lenona married? If not, you should be. You really are perfect for each other.

Conan,

Just because you like to flip through coloring books all day long does not make you "well-read".

Quality matters.

As it stands you continually get your facts wrong which suggests that whatever it is you are reading doesn't actually have information content.

Saying Trump is "working class" is one of the most stupid things you have ever uttered, and that is saying something quite profound.

What I find amazing is that you seem to be far more critical of a random person on a blog than you are of the president of the united states when that president is part of the republican party.

If you were so very concerned with folks being "well-read" you wouldn't twist yourself into knots trying to defend and excuse the idiot clown currently in office.

If you cared at all for folks being well read then you would be ranting from the rooftops constantly how Trump famously avoids reading official reports and instead watches TV all day long.

If you really felt I was so poorly read you would just call me a down to earth working class person.

Like I said, Trump has made you into a joke.

Jay R,

I am just a salt of the earth working class kind of person... I know this because I like TV and fast food.

Also... since when do you folks have issues with prigs?

Trump calls himself a "stable genius" and claims to have "unmatched wisdom" and yet you all lick his boots.

The real issue you seem to have is with anyone who isn't a sycophantic conservative that bows their head to anyone on the team.

You guys need to grow a spine.

Saying Trump is "working class" is one of the most stupid things you have ever uttered, and that is saying something quite profound. ~ Artemis at October 18, 2019 12:29 PM

Again, you need to stop conflating economic status and social class. They're not the same thing, even though they often use interchangeable terms. You're way too wedded to Marxian concepts of class.

"The concept of social class itself is a complex construct, with many competing definitions and models." ~ Douglas Eichar (Occupation and Class Consciousness in America)

That you cannot conceive of or accept the existence of a definition not in accord with the one you've cemented in your mind betrays your intellectual deficiency. You've flunked Fitzgerald's test: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

"A more or less accurate measure of class in America is TV size: the bigger your TV, the lower your class." ~ Paul Fussell (Class: A Guide Through the American Status System)

Conan Says:

"Again, you need to stop conflating economic status and social class. They're not the same thing, even though they often use interchangeable terms. You're way too wedded to Marxian concepts of class."

I don't need to stop using a perfectly acceptable standard and definition because it is inconvenient for whatever delusional point you want to make.

I'm not even conflating economic status with social class as you assert.

Instead what seems to be going on here is you are conflating superficial nonsense with social class.

Liking television and fast food is hardly a reliable marker for social class.

Only an idiot would classify a person who lives paycheck to paycheck as a construction worker as part of the "upper class" because they happen to have a refined taste in wine.

Conan,

Also, I am amused that you adhere to the definition of a "first-rate intelligence" as one that is perfectly in accordance with the definition of double-think from 1984:

"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

Needless to say I think your brains have turned to mush and oozed out of your ears.

...one that is perfectly in accordance with the definition of double-think from 1984 ~ Artemis at October 18, 2019 6:26 PM

Fitzgerald is not advocating that you believe both conflicting ideas, just that you be able to accept their existence in your head. Like Hitchens, he argued that a first rate intelligence should know his opponent's position better than his opponent.

Your rigid adherence to the one idea that fits your pre-conceptions, to the exclusion of any other, is not indicative of the first-rate Intelligence you keep telling us you have.

This is the second time you've referenced 1984 on this blog. In fact, 1984 is the only book you've cited, quoted, or referenced here. Artie, it's high time that you read a second book. This time try looking beyond the thinnest one on your high school's required reading list.

Let us know how it goes. We're rooting for you. We'll be here to help you with the big words.

Conan Says:

"Fitzgerald is not advocating that you believe both conflicting ideas, just that you be able to accept their existence in your head. Like Hitchens, he argued that a first rate intelligence should know his opponent's position better than his opponent."

If that is all that you are saying then why would you assert that I cannot do this based only on the evidence that I do not agree with you?

Your original claim only made sense in the context that unless I concede your ridiculous position as being correct or valid that I therefore must not understand it.

Your contention only emerges from your own apparent inability to admit the possibility that you could be in error or wrong.

The reasons you are in error are on the basis of the facts when properly analyzed, having nothing to do with your particular theoretical formulation of class structure.

"Your rigid adherence to the one idea that fits your pre-conceptions, to the exclusion of any other, is not indicative of the first-rate Intelligence you keep telling us you have."

That is actually what you are guilty of Conan.

You rigidly adhere to a definition of class that places supreme weight upon completely superficial structures while giving no weight at all to deeper more important considerations.

It is stupid to look at a person who was raised as a longshore fisherman... watch them toil day in and day out just to make ends meet for their family... and finally to conclude that they are part of the upper echelons of society because they happen to enjoy classical music.

You are willfully ignoring the deeper more important items in favor of a complete focus on the surface.

Sure Trump likes TV and fastfood… but those items do not in any way define where he lands in the social strata when one accounts for his actual life time of experience and behaviors.

You fancy yourself deep Conan, but this is the superficial childlike thinking of a toddler. They look at bear and conclude it is a dog because they both happen to be fuzzy on the outside.

You're mean-spirited.

Besides—

> the superficial childlike
> thinking of a toddler

That's redundant.

Conan,

Also... I don't really think you grasp what Fitzgerald is saying.

For a deeper understanding you really should read the sentence following the one you quoted from "The Crack-Up":

"Before I go on with this short history, let me make a general observation—the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise."

What Fitzgerald appears to be getting at is how to show mental resilience in the face of overwhelming odds against you.

That it is important to understand that a situation seems hopeless, and not to give up and persevere anyway as if it weren't hopeless after all.

Needless to say your application of his principle doesn't seem to show any reading comprehension on your part.

Fitzgerald literally means that one holds two conflicting ideas as true at the same time... but they are subjective ideas... not notions based in fact.

Doublethink on the other hand is the Orwellian concept of holding two mutually exclusive factual beliefs as true at the same time.

Lastly, your argument about Hitchens advocating understanding all positions in depth to be able to effectively dismantle the incorrect ones in debate is a separate concept still.

Needless to say Fitzgerald's concept never applied here and you have completely butchered its intended usage to try and score cheap points.

Crid Says:

"That's redundant."

Indeed it is... consider that sentence like a well designed airplane.

Inanity and profundity are distinct.

Are you the drunkard who's resentful about being duct-taped after threatening other passengers?

Yes, Artie, that was the immediate example Fitzgerald gave. Now, perhaps instead of simply Googling the quote to rebut me and prove how smart you are, you should have actually read the essay.

As an example of his intellectual test, Fitzgerald cited the ability to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to carry on. He then went on in the essay to talk about stoicism, despair, and optimism -- the ability to understand the argument that things are not hopeless while also understanding the opposite. He also cited the ability to despise the excesses of the rich while striving to join them through making a living.

The mental ability described by Fitzgerald -- being able to see both sides of an argument -- is rare and getting rarer by the day. And, Artie, you don't have it, if you ever did. You use information only to rationalize a preconceived notion, not to learn something or find the truth.

Conan,

Yes, indeed that was the immediate example Fitzgerald gave... and notably it does not match with your description of what he meant when you said this:

"Fitzgerald is not advocating that you believe both conflicting ideas..."

In his explicit example he is indeed advocating that one has the capacity to belief both conflicting ideas simultaneously.

You've demonstrated zero understanding of what Fitzgerald is actually describing.

As usual, you make some claim and upon further inspection it turns out you have everything completely distorted or wrong.

Fitzgerald is decidedly not talking about being able to "see both sides of an argument"

Furthermore, as per usual you are completely lost.

Let's take a step back and try and analogy.

While one should be simultaneously capable of understanding modern chemistry and its classification of the elements as well as the classical elements described by Aristotle... never the less it is stupid to "see both sides of the argument" when one of those systems has been demonstrably proven to be incorrect.

It would be stupid and ignorant for someone to argue that we should give equal time or consideration to the idea that wood is composed of earth and fire... when instead we now understand that wood is composed of organic molecules that are mostly constituted of the following atomic elements... Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen (with traces of other elements of course).

It isn't that I don't understand the idea you are putting forth... it is that you are wrong on the basis of the facts.

You simply cannot accept the possibility that you do not understand something... therefore you end up concluding that when someone disagrees with you the comprehension failure is on their side of the fence.

You haven't properly understood Fitzgerald, you haven't properly understood the theory of social class you are trying to put forth... and to be honest I don't have many examples of you properly understanding anything.

Artemis/Orion, you're thinking like a child, and arguing like a child of divorce.

Institutional youth, right?

Crid,

Don't you think it is the least bit obtuse to talk about anyone "arguing like a child" when we are discussing the president of the united states acting like a complete imbecile and we have folks like Conan declaring him to be some sort of working class folk hero?

My favorite part of this whole discussion was actually when he decided to invoke Christopher Hitchens.

I am quite confident that Hitchens would classify Trump as a nutball narcissistic tycoon.

Yet here we have someone so wrapped up in defending this malignant tumor on society that they cannot see straight.

Your confidence in your own political insight does not enthuse. How old are you? Were you raised in a loving home? Read lots of books?

Crid,

You should really spend your time worrying about your standards for elected officials.

Notably they should be higher than your standards for random internet strangers.

On a separate note, when I say I am confident that Hitchens would classify Trump as a nutball narcissistic tycoon, I don't say that lightly.

I don't express confidence on any proposition unless I have good reason to believe it to be true.

Artie, your argument style is disingenuous and dishonest - as are you. You scan innocuous pieces for sentences you can willfully misconstrue. Then, you present those misconstrued sentences a proof of a flaw within the person who offered them. Finally, you submit the conclusions drawn from your deliberate distortions as proof of your intellectual superiority.

You remind me of those folks in dictatorships who report their neighbors or coworkers for an offhand joke or a comment in order to gain some advantage for themselves while smugly declaring that they've done their duty.

I have no doubt that if a dictatorship were to take over the US and you could discover the identities of everyone on this blog, you would readily turn in anyone who ever dared to disagree with you, smirking as you imagine them being led to the torture chambers and yourself receiving a medal.
__________________________________________________

...you haven't properly understood the theory of social class you are trying to put forth.... ~ Artemis at October 19, 2019 10:43 AM

No, Artie, it's you who doesn't understand. You're still wedded to Marxian definition of social class.

A working class person does not become upper class simply because that person grows up with or inherits a great deal of money. A "lazy rich kid" is not automatically upper class.

Money can buy material things, but it cannot buy taste, and Donald Trump has none. Many of the newly made dot-com billionaires are in the same boat - they have lots of money, but no class.

Artie, I've given at least two cites for my social class argument and you've given none for yours. You've relied on insults and snide comments to get what you think is your point across. You call your assumptions "commonly accepted" and "generally held" as cover for your arguments' lack of substance.

If you need more cites on this, try reading John O'Hara, Arthur Marwick, or Russell Lynes. Try Richard Cohen, who declared in a 2016 Washington Post editorial, "Trump ain't got no class." Hardly an expected sentiment if the subject is "upper class" as you declared Trump to be with his 6-figure income and draft deferments.

You haven't properly understood Fitzgerald.... ~ Artemis at October 19, 2019 10:43 AM

Artie, I've actually read Fitzgerald's essay - all three parts of it. By your arguments, I can see that you have not read it.

You are not well-read, Artie. To be honest, Artie, I don't think you've even read 1984, the only book you've quoted, cited, or referenced on this blog. Google? Cliff's Notes?

The 'weight' of your daydreams about Hitchens is vanishingly slight, as are your suppositions about how I might "really spend" my time. See also & again, "confidence in your own political insight," above. You missed it the first time.

Group home?

Crid Says:

"The 'weight' of your daydreams about Hitchens is vanishingly slight"

It isn't a daydream Crid… it is called reading.

I say Hitchens would classify Trump as a nutball narcissistic tycoon because he said it in print here:

https://www.thenation.com/article/our-rigged-elections/

"Just for fun, why not set him up against Donald Trump, so that even the supposed outsider faction can replicate the only allowable division, between machine-produced clones on the one hand and nutball narcissistic tycoons on the other."

Your stupidity is astounding.

As I said, when I say I have confidence in a claim it is because I have evidence in support of that claim.

You and others here just confidently make things up.

That isn't how I operate.

You've been "reading" his reactions to the Trump presidency?

A multi-unit series of cottages ffor afflicted youth?

Conan,

As I have said on multiple occasions.

My disagreement with you is on the basis of the facts. That you cannot accept this and presume that any disagreement is "evidence" of a lack of understanding on the part of the person you are talking to is a deep character flaw you need to resolve.

"A working class person does not become upper class simply because that person grows up with or inherits a great deal of money."

Of course... but that doesn't describe Trump Conan.

That is your fundamental problem.

Trump wasn't just some working class trucker who suddenly won the powerball and became a multimillionaire.

If you knew anything at all about Trumps upbringing you would understand this.

The penchant for eating fastfood is not a defining characteristic of social class.

It is about how one related to money and what one expects when dealing with society at large on the basis of how they view the world.

Trump does not in any way shape or form have a working class view of the world... his love for burgers doesn't change this.

Your analysis is superficial and meaningless.

As I have already shown Crid… Hitchens doesn't agree with your assessment either (and you've already identified him as a 1st rate mind whom I should try and emulate).

Trump is a nutball narcissistic tycoon based on Hitchens own appraisal. He isn't the working class folk hero you desperately want to believe he is.

Your just a mark Conan... another in a long like of dupes that Trump has conned. I'm sorry to deliver that sad news to you as I am sure you considered yourself to be someone with "street smarts" and "common sense". Unfortunately your just the dumb looking guy the con artist picked out of the crowd as an easy target.

Hitchens was right... and while it may pain you to admit, his perspective is in agreement with my own.

Crid,

What are you suggesting... that Hitchens would have changed his assessment of Trump as a "nutball narcissistic tycoon" to that of a "working class folks hero" on the basis of his candidacy and his actions as president?

Good grief, you are grasping at straws.

Do you need a marker to draw on a weather map by any chance?

Just admit you were wrong on the basis of the evidence.

Conan Says:

"Money can buy material things, but it cannot buy taste, and Donald Trump has none."

This type of comment is just dripping with disdain for actual working class folks by the way.

Working class is not synonymous with having "no taste".

Similarly, the upper class is not synonymous with having "taste".

I get your perspective... I simply reject it as disgusting elitist nonsense.

Trump ... isn't the working class folk hero you desperately want to believe he is. ~ Artemis at October 20, 2019 1:28 PM

Working class hero?! Is that what you got from what I wrote? Damn, you're even stupider than I thought you were.

You really do just read whatever you want to into what someone writes, don't you? You've made up your mind and no amount of truth is gonna change it.

Muffin, Hitchens has been dead for years. Kapoot. Concluded. The Fork/Done Syndrome, The Choir Invisible. Masturbating like he's your favorite pinup from your Mom's generation is not something he'd have thought of as flattering to him or ennobling of you.

It's fun to imagine how he'd have responded to you for speaking on his behalf.

Try Paglia next.

Conan Says,

"You really do just read whatever you want to into what someone writes, don't you?"

Why is everything with you projection.

During this entire conversation you have asserted that I have been conflating wealth with class and income with wealth.

That being said, I defy you to find one time I even mentioned the words "wealth" or "income" with regard to Donald Trump.

It is actually a quick hot key search... the fact is you will discover that you were the only one ever mentioning wealth or income with reference to Trump.

That was never something I even hinted at.

I did however talk about the power of connections and growing up in an environment where one was rewarded far beyond their merit would warrant... these are just some of the hallmarks of an extremely upper-class upbringing, which lends itself to a very specific way of looking at the world.

That being said, you just constantly ignored what I actually said in favor or your own made up fantasy.

As for what you have written, let's be very clear about what you have said.

You have classified Donald Trump as part of the working class specifically because he has "no taste" and "no class" in terms of comportment or chosen leisure activities. You have cited specifically that he likes to watch TV and he eats fast food.

All of this is quite telling with regard to how you actually see the working class and it is really quite disgusting if you ask me.

Working class individuals are not defined as people who have no taste, have no class, or as folks who sit around watching TV all day while eating fast food.

You have generated a horrid caricature of the working class that defines them in terms of negative character traits.

Apparently for you, having no taste and no class, and being a lazy couch potato represents a set of disqualifying character traits for being considered to be part of the upper crust... but it fits right in with folks who work a hard days labor.

You've made up your mind and no amount of truth is gonna change it any more than it would be possible to change a racists mind that their target group isn't the repository of all manner of negative stereotypes.

Our disagreement never stemmed from me conflating wealth with class and income with wealth. It stemmed from the fact that I fundamentally disagree with you that social class is defined by superficial aspects of refinement.

The upper class can be every bit as crude, lazy, tasteless, and crass as any other strata of society. It is a shame you view the working class the way royalty used to view peasants... just as a bunch of dirty unrefined rabble.

Crid Says:

"Muffin, Hitchens has been dead for years."

Of course he's been dead for years... what is it you are failing to comprehend here?

I simply claimed that I was confident that Hitchens would classify Trump as a nutball narcissistic tycoon.

I made that claim specifically because that is exactly how Hitchens himself classified Trump. I wasn't guessing... it was a verbatim quote.

"It's fun to imagine how he'd have responded to you for speaking on his behalf."

I'm not speaking on his behalf you cancerous dolt.

Are you even literate?

The only "positive" thing Hitchens ever had to say about Trump was that he "has managed to cover 90% of his head with 30% of his hair". That isn't my imagination Crid, watch the guy for yourself because this is on video so even your inability to read will be no excuse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2phQnqva8hQ

Needless to say, I am not speaking on behalf of Hitchens... I'm simply referencing what the guy himself stated.

I don't need the man standing next to me to know what his opinion when he already documented his thoughts on the subject.

> Needless to say, I am not
> speaking on behalf of Hitchens...

Naw, I'd say that in that regard, you're desperately needful.

It's never been clear exactly what childlike psychographic patterns you seek to hone here. From your first comments, you were saying naive things in a defensive and brittle tone. Every year you've become more personally offensive without any growth in your insights or practical knowledge of the world... As if, after fifteen years of youthful isolation from other children, you were dropped off back in second grade, and have been advancing apace with the class in your schoolyard snot-blasting... But without any of the lessens from classroom, whether socially or by curriculum.

You've always sought to convince us that you're a heartbroken, quibbling naif. Well, we believe you!… You're a heartbroken, quibbling naif.

You never had to work this hard.

> Such a stance is about an
> unamerican as it gets.

No way you were born an American citizen... Certainly not stateside. Not possible.

You're a native of institutional life.

Crid,

Why is it whenever the facts demonstrate you are wrong do you pitch a fit?

You can cry, you can whine, you can throw a tantrum all you like... but none of that changes the reality that Hitchens directly stated that he classifies Trump as a nutball narcissistic tycoon.

You keep talking about things like "growth", "insight", and "practical knowledge"... and yet you cannot even bring yourself to admit that you were mistaken.

The interesting thing about all of this is that I don't picture you as some strong or wise individual Crid. Instead you've always struck me as a deeply lonely, socially isolated, and broken man.

Do you have friends that you socialize with in person?

Do you have family that love and care about you?

Do you have children who run up to give you a hug when they see you?

What mark will you be leaving on the world beyond a useless collection of deeply bitter and trollish interactions on the internet?

You have no legacy Crid… and I think in your old age that is starting to really bother you.

> You have no legacy Crid

It wasn't for reunions or anything, but I happened to spend the weekend with both family & high school buddies: They each affirmed, unbidden, that my enduring contribution will by my abiding physical beauty, unfaltering and unblemished even at this late hour. It soothes and inspires… I've launched ships, etc. There's also my provident estate, which —composed with compassion and deep research— will enrich many lives by its scope & astounding generosity.

You've never once expressed an opinion: Every word is immovable (and irredeemable) certitude. You have maximum ego on the line, yet can't manipulate rhetorical positions; your comments have no features. You're right, others are 100% wrong, and you're terribly upset that we won't say so…

You were raised in an institution, and not long ago. Don't kid a kidder... 'Fess up. Best case, you're on the spectrum, and probably overseas anyway.

C'mon, don't kid a kidder.

Crid Says:

"They each affirmed, unbidden, that my enduring contribution will by my abiding physical beauty, unfaltering and unblemished even at this late hour."

That you would even feel the need to make up such a story is deeply depressing.

I honestly and sincerely feel bad for you.

This is why at this moment I just can't bring myself to insult you... it feels like punching down or kicking a dead horse.

"You've never once expressed an opinion..."

Sure I have... I just did in fact.

It was and remains my opinion that you are a deeply lonely, socially isolated, and broken man.

In addition it is my opinion that I think in your old age this is starting to really bother you.

One clue to discern when someone is expressing their opinion are the words "I think".

Have you purchased any Halloween candy yet?... will you be taking or accompanying any children around town to knock on doors?

Have you started thinking about purchasing holiday presents for anyone?... do you expect to receive any presents from anyone?... do you expect to have people over for the holidays, or will you be going somewhere?

They're coming over; you're not invited. The words "I think" only appear in the insults of you comments, not the matter under discussion.

Group home? 8-to-15 other kids in a dormitory on the edge of town?

Overseas? I knew it.

Crid,

When I say that I think you are a deeply lonely, socially isolated, and broken man that isn't an insult.

That is an expression of concern for your general well being because you strike me as someone who is suffering from an emotionally empty life.

This must be a particularly difficult time of year for you.

There are probably local hobby clubs you can join or you can choose to get involved in community service organizations such as the Knights of Columbus, the Lions Club, Kiwanis, or the Masons.

There are probably even opportunities for you to volunteer at the local hospital as a retiree baby cuddler (for this it is likely you would need to submit to and pass a background check).

Its been a while, but I distinctly remember when my kids were born how much joy it seemed to bring to those older folks to help care for newborns.

Its not too late for you to have real and emotionally satisfying interactions Crid… just give it some thought.