(*reining in)

God™ forbid anyone restrain their precious.

My boys did pretty well in restaurants. They stayed in their seats and stayed quiet, or were taken outside. I was shocked when people stopped us to tell me how great they were. They were just being normal.

However, my eldest would have failed at the Arby’s. Between a reverse swallow and poor small motor control, his food didn’t always stay on his plate. One time, a waitress said that I needed to bring a mat for the floor next time because he had dropped some rice. I was surprised because I had left a 25% tip to take care of extra cleanup. 20 years ago, 15% was standard.

"I was shocked to find a sign like that," she said. "It is a fast-food restaurant, it's not something with white tablecloths. It's supposed to be family-oriented, as far as I knew."

Because other people dining at Arby's don't deserve consideration and respect? Because decorum and manners are in play only at restaurants with "white tablecloths?" Because "family-oriented" means "human zoo?"

There seems to be a movement afoot that says that parents are not to be criticized at all; that parenting is such a precious and difficult job that the parent cannot be taken to task for any breach of decorum by the child.

Well... this is to be expected. We lower standards again and again to make people who cannot perform comfortable, because they are the most important thing in the world.

Everybody said so when they were growing up.

Gee, where does all this crime come from? Aww, it's so uncomfortable making money when it's so easy to steal things. Hey, I should be able to do any drugs whatsoever because I feel uncomfortable otherwise!

I'm wondering when we'll stop making military recruits do pushups.

From the article:

She said dinner with her kids went smoothly, but she told the station she still felt “uncomfortable” during her time there.

Then she is far too snowflakey to be a parent.

"Yep, when I want to have a pleasant and quiet sit down meal with my family, I immediately consider Arby's," the commenter said.

As Conan, is this because those who choose to dine in Arby's do not deserve consideration?

It isn't that parents shouldn't be criticized, Conan. It is that they shouldn't be criticized. They just happened to be parents this time.

Of course, the irony here is that ten years ago, that Arby's probably had a playground for children, as did most other fast-food restaurants. But they are eliminating them due to -- you guessed it -- liability.

(Actually, I'm noticing that a lot of fast food places are focusing on drive-through service and shrinking their eat-in dining areas. A McDonald's near me that was rebuilt about four years ago now only has seven tables; the rest of the space was taken for more kitchen space, so they can serve a higher volume of drive-throughs.)

Yes, people controlling their kids in public is good manners and expected civilized behavior.

But still, a sign like that in Arbys? Presumptuous behavior in the extreme. You don’t lecture your customers.

@Isab: Pshaw. The customers shouldn't need the lecture, but one of them did or the sign would not have gone up.

I'm annoyed that it has been taken down, and would not eat there now. Management that doesn't expect kids to behave decently is almost as bad as management that doesn't try to keep bums out. (Of course Starbucks has nothing I want anyway.)

We have reached the point where all these so-called civil rights laws help only the unworthy, so it's time to start repealing them all.

“@Isab: Pshaw. The customers shouldn't need the lecture, but one of them did or the sign would not have gone up.”

When you are an *employee*, you don’t get to decide these things.
Hence the retraction and apology.

Know who you work for, and do what they tell you. Simple rule that apparently a lot of smart people don’t understand.

Also notice that the *sign* in this case was directed condescendingly to the general public, and not the parent in question because whoever put up the sign was passive aggressively reacting to a previous incident that they most likely did not address at the time it needed to be dealt with.

Putting up a sign that says no *bums* or no *badly behaved kids* like those stupid *no guns * sign doesn’t accomplish anything. Just pisses off your customer base.

There seems to be a movement afoot that says that parents are not to be criticized at all; that parenting is such a precious and difficult job that the parent cannot be taken to task for any breach of decorum by the child.

Exactly. And if the person criticizing is (horrors!) sans bebes it's even worse.

It's not my line — I wish I knew whom to credit — but my response is generally, "I may not own a helicopter, but when I see one hanging from a tree, I know somebody done fucked up."

Seriously, one does not need to possess either a car or a driver's license to recognize poor driving.

1912, Bullitt County, Kentucky

Eighth Grade exam

Speaking of standards ...

I was shocked when people stopped us to tell me how great they were.

One of those people might have been me, Jen. After several dinners in a row sitting near screaming kids, I've been known to congratulate the parents of ones who were well behaved.

Kevin, maybe you got that helicopter line from comic Steve Hofstetter?

"Heckler doesn't stand a chance"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoDt_uxb_E

It's 3:26 minutes long. Bottom line: You don't have to be an insider to have common sense.

And, from Bill Maher's "The NEW New Rules":

"Now, I know what you're saying: 'But, Bill, what do you know about raising kids? You don't have any.' Yeah, I also don't have any fish, but I know not to fill their tank with Mountain Dew."

And, in 2005, he wrote:

"This is not rocket science. What you should do when Skylar won’t do his chores. How about using your size advantage. Make him...

"...So, no, I don’t have kids. And you know what? I don’t intend to have any until people start making some I’d want my kids to play with. Until then, I’m just glad I own a lot of stock in Ritalin."
___________________________________

And I agree that an employee, per se, doesn't have the authority to put that sign up.

But, as I've mentioned, parents shouldn't let kids run and scream even at McDonald's. Why? Because the parents never know when someone else might have a headache (including themselves, of course) or when some frail person with a cane might come in and get knocked over and get a hip broken! Common sense.

The idea seems to be: "I have to put up with their screaming for seven days a week; why the hell won't YOU put up with it for an hour or two? Give me a break!"

Of course, it doesn't occur to them that no, the parents SHOULDN'T put up with screaming at home if the kids are over age 3 or so. (I chose that age because the only kids I ever see kicking or screaming at supermarkets are those preschoolers already strapped down in their seats. Kids who walk and are too big for the shopping cart seats have generally been trained to behave in THAT setting, at least.)

And in the same vein, while it makes sense to avoid the word "no" or to use distraction with TODDLERS - see here (you have to click on the top one on the left, I think) -

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22lamp+store%22+%22family+circus%22+%22pretty+lamps%22&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjejt7StobmAhUQqlkKHbW4DVsQ_AUoAnoECAYQBA&biw=1920&bih=921

- it's just plain wimpy to try to keep using those tactics after a certain age - AND they don't work! Sooner or later, kids will hear "no" from teachers and classmates, and things will get ugly unless they're already used to hearing AND accepting it!

Btw, remember "A Taste of Heaven" in Chicago?

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/us/at-center-of-a-clash-rowdy-children-in-coffee-shops.html

Can't find this part, offhand, but IIRC, the owner put up the sign saying "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven" after seeing more and more customers come in and take one look around and leave immediately.

Naturally, "parents" got mad. (As if there aren't plenty of REAL parents looking for a relatively quiet place to eat - and some even pay for a babysitter and a truly fancy restaurant only to have that ruined by "parents" who bring in babies!)

As I quoted here, some minutes ago:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2019/11/pay-for-your-ow.html#comments

"Chains are of our own making.

"However heavy these may be they will never feel as irksome as limitations placed on us by others."

So if that means having to go through the terrible ordeal of not taking babies and toddlers to most eateries - or having to MAKE older kids behave in public - so be it!

Speaking of kids who haven't been taught to limit their demands...

Father writes: "My 10 year old daughter must be out of her mind with this Christmas list"

https://twitter.com/a_johnson412/status/1194689352992903169?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1194689352992903169&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fatherly.com%2Fnews%2Fthis-10-year-olds-christmas-list-hilariously-includes-an-iphone-and-a-hydroflask%2F

I mean, at that age, no WAY would I have listed more than half-a-dozen items - and only ONE of them would have been an expensive item, since I knew we weren't rich! (Yes, we always lived in pretty safe neighborhoods, but we did without plenty of things in order to do so.)

I can only assume her parents didn't teach her to have any sense of shame - or that there's anything wrong with greed.

And, from People Magazine:

...On the other hand, some users mentioned that children need to learn from experience in order to understand public dining etiquette.

“When the children in our family were little I took them to a variety of restaurants for the purpose of teaching them how to eat in public as well as to spend time with them,” one person wrote. “There is an etiquette and how we eat at home is very different than how we eat in public. Children don’t know what they aren’t taught.”
____________________________________

Um..."very different"?

Kids who crazy in indoor public places should stay home until they're old enough to promise not to. (Or, at least, be immediately removed.) Kids who, at home, run, scream, and throw food can be taught not to do that - at HOME!

Get the idea? No? I thought not.

The best ones are the moms that also come with their besties, and once their kids start touching things and/or opening packages; these ladies start yapping in a louder volume, as if their noise will make the children's irresponsible behavior will magically vanish while they are shopping.

Another favourite of mine is the single mom with her single mom double team and the kid who wants one thing for 30 seconds. They're fun when they're buying the kid one toy and in the middle of tearing the package apart, the child drops the toy and wants something else and hates what is was holding. You should see the single mom do that head tilt when you tell them they have to pay for the toy and her single mom instead of teaching her skank about responsibility and parenting spouts Don't pay shit. Fun to deal with three generations of spoiled-rotten thots.

And dads aren't exempt from this. Oooh, a 5yo boy trying to get into a baby walker, the dad is watching the kid doing it, he's watching you watch the kid. You tell the kid to quit it, the dad's face gets very red with anger. And then the boy gives you one of those You ain't shit to tell me what to do and rides the walker.. No fists between me and the dad but a lot of yelling from his side.

TL;DR, parents do know they have an unruly child, they're just gambling how much they can get away with it until the management notices.

Radwaste said: "We lower standards again and again to make people who cannot perform comfortable, because they are the most important thing in the world."

There is a big difference between can't and won't.

Lenona said: "Sooner or later, kids will hear "no" from teachers and classmates, and things will get ugly unless they're already used to hearing AND accepting it!"

A lot of them won't hear "no" until it's from a police officer with a gun, and then it does get ugly.

Around here, RBs stands for Rich Bastards.

Sooner or later, kids will hear "no" from teachers and classmates, and things will get ugly unless they're already used to hearing AND accepting it!

Already saw what happens. The kid will freeze for about three seconds and then will cry as loud as he/she can and then drop onto the floor and continue crying nonstop; and the child will cry and cry and cry and cry and choke on its tears, and I'm not talking about a pretend cough, I'm talking the child is actually choking because the moment all the phlegm went into its lungs.

At the end of the day, it's a game of chicken and the parents lost big time.

On the point of who can and cannot put up such a sign, a manager at that store may have been involved. Can't really tell from the information provided. Such a manager or a franchise owner I would expect is fully authorized to post something like that. The groups that objected appears to be Arby's the parent company, not the owner of that specific store.

On the parents with unruly child thing, get to know a few of those people. I understand it may be painful. You will quickly notice it isn't just the parenting that is a problem. It is their whole life. Like Sixclaws mentioning breaking open packages at the store and not paying for the damaged goods. They are just irresponsible people in general. The kid issue is just one symptom. Even without the kids there they will still break things open and then put them back on the shelf.

As Iowaan said, the only "no" they will respond to is the one coming out of a policeman's gun. Tragic. If you have a better solution please get out there and make it happen.

Around here, RBs stands for Rich Bastards.

Parents and other adults who expect children to behave well in public will most likely NOT be offended by the sign. Rather, they might think: "good, it is about time management said something."

Parents (and I do use that term loosely in this paragraph) who don't teach their children to be respectful of others will take "umbrage" at the sign and complain about it.

P.S. I use the term "umbrage" because "big" words scare such ignorant folks. LOL!

Parents and other adults who expect children to behave well in public will most likely NOT be offended by the sign. Rather, they might think: "good, it is about time management said something."

Parents (and I do use that term loosely in this paragraph) who don't teach their children to be respectful of others will take "umbrage" at the sign and complain about it.

P.S. I use the term "umbrage" because "big" words scare such ignorant folks. LOL!

charles at November 26, 2019 9:06 AM

Admittedly, I over analyze everything, but if I was a parent today, with two small children like I was in 1986, I would have been thinking. Ok. They want my kids sitting down, but if I leave them at the table in their seats, and walk up to the counter to order, some government Nanny bitch will probably call the police.

And if I take them to the counter I can hold one, and get out my credit card but the other is going to be standing in the line with me milling about my legs. Is this allowed?

Also, if my 4 year old knocks over a drink, or my two year old drops a fry, am I banned for life?

At this point, I say, screw it, and go somewhere else. Preferably thru the drive thru somewhere else.

Probably telling that Charles can’t put himself mentally in the place of a responsible parent who is being passive aggressively scolded preemptively by a fucking pretentious and overly wordy sign.

This is a sign that I would probably find acceptable:

“For liability reasons please do not leave your children unattended or allow them to run around the restaurant. Thank you. The Staff “.

See how easy that is?

As Charles said, if you're already a responsible parent, why would it offend you instead of giving you a slight sense of relief? Unless you're the type of so-called adult who's always LOOKING for an excuse to get offended?

But yes, your 22-word rephrasing does sound more polite - and formal. The trick is not to get so gentle and subtle that it goes over the heads of the offenders. (Plenty would be too lazy to read it anyway.)

Also, I remember reading a story about a similar sign in a cafe, and one commentator said that if she saw a sign like that, she would sigh with relief and think "now I won't have to put up with my kid's asking 'if those kids can scream and run, why can't I?'"
_________________________________________

They want my kids sitting down, but if I leave them at the table in their seats, and walk up to the counter to order, some government Nanny bitch will probably call the police.
_________________________________________

Um, if they were alone in a car, maybe, but when has that EVER happened in a restaurant? Even if it were another customer?

Obviously, the STAFF can't do that - it would be contradictory. If a customer called the police, they would likely leap to the mother's defense. It would help their reputation - with Lenore Skenazy and her fans, at least.

And yes, I remember the library in Beaverton, Oregon that imposed a "draconian" rule in 2016:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2016/11/linkakeet-2.html

But there was no contradiction there, as you'll see.

I am such a parent Isab. My boys are 4 and 5. I don't have an issue with the current sign. But I will agree that your choice is the more professional one.

Lenona, you would be surprised at the dumb stuff people get up to. Yes it does sometimes happen in restaurants.

Apparently, at the Pinole, CA In-N-Out Burger, people sometimes use the drive-thru instead of eating inside because there are so many car break-ins, even if nothing is visible in the car. I believe that I read that police have put up signs saying that they have decoy cars, in an attempt to reduce car break-ins.

Yes it does sometimes happen in restaurants.
__________________________________________

As I said - when, exactly? I constantly hear news stories involving kids in parked cars (on mild days, mind you) but never ones involving cops and SEATED kids in restaurants. Even when the stories are about kids behaving badly, the police didn't get called - because the parents WERE there.

Btw, from the Reason link on the Beaverton library (the comment is not about libraries but about kids in cars):

Hrod: "My wife is pregnant with our first, and we’ve already had discussions about how to handle busybodies. I told her to say and do whatever she has to in order to put the busybody on the defensive...

"...I told my wife that she should immediately get on the phone with the cops and say the words 'child molester' in the first sentence to the dispatcher. Get that on record as soon as possible, and keep saying it until the threat is gone. You’re in a million times better of a position if you call in a 'false alarm' because you thought the person creeping around your car was a child molester than if the person calls the cops on you as a 'neglectful' parent.

"Also, the busybody can’t keep giving you crap about leaving the kid in the car when they’re trying to defend themselves from loud accusations of being a child molester."
_______________________________________

I will, however, play devil's advocate for a bit and point out that small children are sometimes the greatest danger to a baby.

(Yes, I'd say the father below deserved to be charged with abandonment - but what if it had happened in just ten minutes instead of ninety minutes?)

From 2018:

A Houston man has been charged with child abandonment after his 6-year-old daughter strangled her 1-year-old brother with a seat belt when he left them alone in a car.

Adrian Dreshuan Middleton was charged Friday in the May 20 killing in Houston. A criminal complaint says the 26-year-old father told investigators he parked outside a thrift store, left the air conditioner on, gave the children water and snacks, and played a movie while he went shopping for clothes.

Surveillance video shows Middleton in the store for almost 1 1/2 hours. When he returned, his daughter was crying in the back seat. She told investigators she was playing with her brother but got angry when he wouldn't stop crying, so she wrapped the seatbelt around him. She thought he had fallen asleep.