My family is mostly Brits. I have heard that joke before.
Droll humor in stressful situations is common.

T.—

"Revolution" is both too dramatic, and in a way, too hopeful. But cultures around the planet are changing. Imagine now the end of Commie media.

Our planet's surface is coived.

Live long enough, anything can happen. Consider this airplane.

Rummy flew in one during his first stint as a SecDef. He's still alive, right?

Even if the paywall stops you somewhat, the comments should still be legible.

(It's about how men, even millennials, still don't do much of any house chore that needs doing every day - unlike mowing the lawn.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/upshot/gender-roles-housework.html#commentsContainer

A few comments:

MG
BostonFeb. 11

"If some man was doing my laundry, cooking, shopping, ordering, and cleaning, I would be so delighted I think I would face any change kicking and screaming too."

Thomas Gilhooley
SyracuseFeb. 11

"I will be 80 in May and am the care taker for my wife which means a new found experience with household chores. I have learned that cleaning a house or apartment is hard work, bending and moving many muscles. I have had to learn new things—— who knew about Swiffer, for example. Also, I am ashamed how much I took for granted during our married life. She never complained so I did not pay attention.

"I write this not to praise or feel sorry for myself, but to say, to men in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, help with the housework now that you and your loved one can share even the most mundane things. Learn to fold a fit sheet. It’s a challenge which I am still working on."

Lawren
San DiegoFeb. 11

"...Many men seem to think that washing dishes occasionally and mowing the grass is equitable housework. They often forget that you also need to dust, sweep, mop, (you got vacuum because your wife insisted), clean the baseboards, clean the toilet, scrub the bathtub, clean the mirrors, empty the litterbox, water the plants, restock the medicine cabinet, replace the fridge water filter, clean out the fridge, clean the microwave, etc.,

"I've been to my single male friends' homes and it is clear that cleaning just doesn't occur to them."

CHICAGO
ChicagoFeb. 11

"My Marine WWII veteran father taught me and my two older brothers to clean the house, and not just because he and my mother both worked full-time jobs. He wanted to make sure we were able to do for ourselves, and that included cooking. So now I clean the kitchen and will do everything else, along with my wife- except the laundry- the one thing she will never (rightfully so) let me do, lest I shrink all of her clothes.

"Men will never be a woman’s equal if they cannot pull their own weight around the house. And every day, I thank my father for drilling it into me to do my share."

Elise
BostonFeb. 11

"... The best thing we've done to combat it is to divide tasks rather than rotate them. I never have to think about emptying the dishwasher or sweeping the kitchen. He never has to think about cleaning the bathroom or washing the towels and sheets. This way we're not getting hung up about who the last one to do X was. The division of labor is a lot clearer."

Tony Francis
Vancouver Island B CFeb. 12
Times Pick

"Look vacuuming is a perfect male oriented job. It is running a machine, it’s loud, and if you leave it out when you finish it’s like showing your wife the carcass of something you have hunted and bought back to the cave for her."

H
ColoradoFeb. 12
Times Pick

"The great thing is that it is never too late to learn any of these skills. If you are a grown man, you can take a class, ask for help, watch youtube, or search the internet to learn basic housekeeping chores. You don't need to blame your parents, society, etc. Take the initiative to learn. If the house is half yours, then the mess is half yours and you had better learn to deal with it because the mundane and tedious chores of everyday life will end only when you are dead. Be an adult and contribute and prevent resentment from building into something bigger."

Jim
PAFeb. 11

"My wife believes in gender equality, but she still won’t change the oil, put air in a tire, mow the lawn, rake leaves, shovel snow, or even change a lightbulb. We all have our burdens. You better believe I leave the vacuuming and dusting up to her. Sincerely - A guy who does his own laundry and cooking."

Phil
NJFeb. 11

"I find this amusing. I am 55 yrs old. My father is 96. Until 10 yrs ago, I watched (and learned) him do all of the housework with the exception of cook. He even did the grocery shopping. So, as an adult I never thought twice about doing the housework, plus my wife doesnt clean as well as I do, but she is a gourmet cook! Anyway, as with everything, it comes from parenting. You know what you see as a child."

L Bodiford
AlabamaFeb. 11

"Now that I have the perspective of a second marriage, it occurs to me that one of the most important factors is the level of cleanliness or neatness that each partner views as ideal. Also important is the energy level of each partner. It doesn't matter what chore a person is doing (indoor or outdoor) — if their partner is napping or watching TV while they are working, forget any chance of a happy relationship."

Lawren
San DiegoFeb. 11

"My progressive millennial husband falls into this category and isn't super interested in cleaning. Over the years, I've made some changes to help balance the workload:

"We each have a room with our closets, so if he wants to throw his clothes on the floor at the end of the day and leave his stuff everywhere he can do so and close his room door and I don't have to look at the mess.

"On that note, he does his own laundry because I started to prioritize mine and wouldn't always finish his each week.

"We used to have an agreement that I cooked dinner and he would wash the dishes. But the dishes just never really got done. So now I just don't cook (which is fine by me as I don't really enjoy it) and I let the "breadwinner" buy us dinner.

"We decided to not have kids, mostly because we didn't want them, but also because I knew how much extra work would be given to me alone. No thanks!"
____________________________________

And in response to the argument "men are Oscar; women are Felix," I say: "Thou shalt not claim blindness to dirt that any visitor could smell."

(After all, maintaining a household that won't make you, children, or pets sick, is no joke.)

Not to mention: If parents don't tolerate it when their kids try to argue that they, the kids, should ONLY have to do the chores they don't loathe, since kids need to learn to do ALL types of chores well to become independent adults, why shouldn't adults rotate at least a few chores between themselves every six months or so? That way, at least, they won't be helpless or worse when one of them is ill.

Oh, and this sounds pretty relevant too:

Anna
BrooklynFeb. 11

"I had an assistant once ask to be let off two hours early from work as she 'needed to get home'... I was of course concerned and asked if everything was OK...child sick? emergency? Child care issue?

"The answer was 'Well, my husband is home with the boys, and he never gets anything done, he just plays and roughhouses with them...I need to get dinner, homework and laundry finished.'

"I was stunned.

"I told her that asking me to give up paid work hours she was hired to do, because her husband didn't feel it was his job to truly parent and perform housework duties, meant she basically had a third child on her hands....and that she and her husband are setting the example to their two sons that men 'don't so housework' for yet another generation of grown men who keep the scales imbalanced.

"I truly hope she took it all into consideration, and demanded some changes.
I would NEVER put up with such inequity in my home. I grew up with a stay-at-home Dad, I know men are just as capable of childcare and cleaning as any woman."

And, for the record:

Whether you're male or female, if you ever suddenly decide to show up at a friend's house to stay for the weekend - or indefinitely, through no fault of your own - please do what Snow White did and offer to do ALL the housework. (In the original story, the dwarves kept the place quite clean on their own, but of course they wanted compensation from a homeless stranger!)

Just because it's THEIR house is no reason to give innocent "hosts" extra work to do.

Corona Virus Live Thread 2/16 to 2/17

My hubs (both of us Gen Z) is great at the visible stuff. He will load dishes, do the laundry, cooks more than I do. But the not-so-noticable stuff: the dusting, vacuuming, air-filter-changing, the removing mystery stickiness from counters and tables, the de-stinking of trash cans etc etc...thats all me. Tis my fault, I saw his place when we first started dating. It wasn't nasty to the point of hugs (ie: dishes were done, laundry done, trash out) but it was darn sure icky.

> And in response to
> the argument

Yeah yeah, but women talk about feelings too much. Don't they? Sure. Sure they do. And with enough time and their full, sincere attention, I'd obviously be able to persuade them of that...



…Except that there's no way in Hell. People (somewhat more often, women) who care, care. People who don't, don't.

These distinctions are not going to be meaningfully ameliorated by rational discussion… It's not like that hasn't been tried.

Nonetheless, this…

> if you ever suddenly decide
> to show up at a friend's house
> to stay for the weekend - or
> indefinitely, through no fault
> of your own - please do what
> Snow White did and offer to
> do ALL the housework.

…makes a LOT of sense. I've never had to impose that way, even for a night. But life is dice rattling in a celestial fist, and especially as years become so frequent, the odds are that it will happen.

Having read your comment, I'll have the offer ready as a reflex. (Or will have no excuse.)

Thanks, Crid.

But the problem with "not caring" is that it takes just one transparent plastic bag or glossy magazine left on the floor to result in the broken leg of a spouse, child - or a visiting dear friend or relative. (And even if visitors are polite enough not to say anything when they smell something awful or see dust mice everywhere, doesn't mean they aren't disgusted - and they may well refuse to eat anything that was cooked in your house, in the future.)

So it's just plain childish - horribly so - to act as though it's the "fussy" spouse who needs to change his/her standards, just because most couples cannot afford a daily housekeeper and plenty can't even afford a weekly housekeeper. "Fussy" only applies if you're talking about what housewives of the Greatest Generation used to do - that is, they kept the floors clean enough to eat off of. As baby boomer women said: "Well, that's ridiculous - we don't eat off floors."

But I agree that women should at least check out men's private habits before living together - if only because it's the PARENTS' job (NOT the wives' job) to teach their sons to have consideration not just for the hygienic standards of wives AND guests, but for other people's health and safety! "Marriage was never meant to be a reform school."

Just make sure (somehow) that a man with a highly tidy apartment that he cleans himself isn't pulling a bait-and-switch. (That was what happened, in one commentator's case - once they married, her husband suddenly stopped cleaning.)

On top of everything else, it is just plain wrong to steal other people's leisure time. How would you react if, as a kid, your sibling came to you and said "you don't like housework, but I hate it ten times as much, so from now on, you should do my share since it isn't fair that I should have to do ANY - and while you're at it, you should do my schoolwork for me too, since I hate school and you don't?"?

Don't know how I put in that unnecessary extra question mark...

One more thing. Even a three-year-old can, with a big sponge and a minimum of water, play at washing floors - with a bit of supervision, of course. So if a couple has kids, they can teach them to help cook and clean, of course - but eventually, the kids are going to complain loudly if they have no leisure time at all, while the parents do. So I would hope a lazy parent would be willing to get off the couch rather than put up with the kids' screams of "unfair!"

But again, forcing a highly selfish, inconsiderate person to change bad habits should be done while that selfish person Is Still a Child.

Finally, from the late Planned Parenthood executive, Sheri Tepper (she later turned to writing novels):

"If you can handle an eggbeater, you can handle a screwdriver. If you can turn over a mattress, you can change a tire. If you can sew on a button, you can drive a nail. If you don't know how, you can learn. And so can he..."

I still think you seem very eager to believe this pattern (which is, where health matters aren't concerned, essentially a matter of taste) is subject to broad social forces of correction.

And even if it were, there are fifty other matters in public life to which I'd want those forces first applied.

You should hang out with clean, orderly people… and I bet you do!

(PS- Apparently there's something statistically real about a Latino unconcern with littering.)

And even if it were, there are fifty other matters in public life to which I'd want those forces first applied.
________________________________________

You make it sound as if this were about reforming adults rather than children. (I trust you don't think that teaching children the rules of common courtesy is trivial?)

Civilizing unwilling human beings is what ADULTS do to CHILDREN. I don't think any individual should have to waste time trying to reform ADULTS who don't really WANT to change - unless those reformers are getting paid for it. (Take people whose job it is to try to reform criminals, for example.)

But, if parents can learn to order, not ask, kids to bathe regularly, even when the kids scream "I don't care if other people never bathe, so why do I have to? UNFAIR!" then they can teach them, early on, to be considerate in all other ways, including fulfilling their responsibilities and pulling their weight.

I suspect one main problem is that parents don't realize that a toddler can NOT be expected to pick up more than half a dozen toys, if that, since there's nothing inherently fun about doing so. So, do they make sure the kid doesn't RECEIVE that many toys in the first place? Of course not. They just give up and pick up the toys themselves - and down the slippery slope of cluelessness the parents go. Hint: Even if the toddler already has 100 toys, parents can still keep them locked in a closet or box, allow no more than one toy at a time OUT of the box, AND order the kid to bring the toy to the parent before another toy can be taken out. It's all about establishing polite habits as early as possible.

To finish off that tip for parents of toddlers: Once the kid is willing to pick up ONE toy without complaint to exchange for another, one can slowly teach the kid to pick up TWO toys without complaint, etc. Even if it takes months to get to three toys.
______________________________________

You should hang out with clean, orderly people… and I bet you do!
_______________________________________

Not exactly. I would never really enjoy the company of preppy-style people, and one of my best friends used to smoke a good deal and still seldom cleans his own place (he has a roommate who doesn't clean either) - but I seldom visit his place anyway; we just meet somewhere else.

Bottom line: Yes, housework can feel degrading, so I empathize with that. It does not mean I will ever clean for someone else without getting paid for it - or live with anyone who shows any sign of not sharing the DAILY chores that need doing. "Better to be alone than to wish you were."

C'mon now, invoking the precious children doesn't reform the calculation. How man generations of intrusive indoctrination about this would have to fail before you'd acknowledge that some 'problems' are private and insoluble... Perhaps because they're not that big as human nature 'problems' gp?

Hearing, 'Don't worry, I'm only "reforming" the babies' doesn't enthuse one to the project.

I mean, "pulling their weight," as a goal for others will collapse for many as soon as they decide that it isn't "weight" to be pulled, it's must a dusty bookshelf.

I don't quite follow. What is the "project"? If you mean it doesn't solve the problem of a selfish husband, then she shouldn't marry him.

Also, there's a complicating negative factor, regarding the generations from the 1970s onward. Many housewives, in their desperation to get the chores done in a hurry, put their preschool sons AND daughters in front of the TV when they could have been putting them through the motions of doing laundry and dishes, on a daily basis. Yes, that would have slowed down the chores, but at least the kids would have gradually learned how to do them before the age of being told to do them unsupervised - and so they would have been less likely to sabotage the chores in indignation. More importantly, they would have learned that no, they were NOT entitled to be passively entertained after the age of three, when there was work that needed to be done, for the whole family's sake! Not to mention they would have getting "quality time" from the parents, even if it wasn't the "quality time" the kids might prefer - like going to a mall.

Or, sometimes, both can get what they want. The Frugal Zealot, Amy Dacyczyn, said she would say to any one of her six kids: "You help me with the dishes and then I'll play cards with you."

And here's a great tip from John Rosemond: Do NOT rotate chores every day or even every week; it's too easy not to take pride or make an effort in the job when it's not fully "your job." Simply exchange chores only once every four months or until everyone has learned a chore to perfection, whichever comes second. That way, little liars can't argue "it's not my turn!" They also can't claim they forgot the chore, so easily.

My point: That there's a good chance that too many parents, since the 1960s, have cared more about their kids' temporary "happiness" than about making them good citizens who put other people first - or the common good - on a regular basis. So until that changes, big-time, BOTH sexes are going to behave selfishly. It's every parents' job to do what they can to make their kids good potential marriage partners; trying to drive down the future divorce rate is no joke. (Another good reason to raise the marriage age, as I mentioned in the other thread.)

Btw, that 90-year-old psychologist friend I've mentioned is a terrible hoarder (especially of papers, books, and clothes), which may be one big reason he and his wife divorced years ago - but I never asked. At any rate, I relish his company at cafes because he's as sharp as ever, loves to talk, and loves to listen. It does not mean that I would ever consent to be a roommate to a hoarder.

Oh, and would you explain that 8:42 AM comment a bit more too? Thanks.

There've been enormous changes in our culture over the last century, and people forget stuff. I remember a friend of my mother's who'd come over for dinner sometimes. She was slender and in control of her appetites, but I remember specifically how she almost literally "cleaned her plate"... Not just that she was responsibly and gratefully pleased with what she was served, but that there'd be zero drippings or sauces left on the plates when she was through. She ate everything she was served without going for seconds, but she wasn't showing off.

People who remember the Great Depression have different ideas about this than teens at Burger Doodle in 2020. And on like that with clothes and reading and decorum in all things.

It would be better if people taught their kids to be tidier. But it's getting late and-----

IJS the genie seems to be out of the bottle.

Also, that was a typo: To a certain masculine archetype (ahem), it's JUST a (lightly) dusty bookshelf, not a failure of one's own rearing in childhood.

(I know most people won't see this.)

Yes, things don't necessarily need dusting every week.

But if preschoolers can learn to accept the crazy idea that things that are too tiny to see can still make you really sick AND, therefore, hand-washing several times a day is mandatory, what's so hard about teaching kids to develop a sense of repulsion when it comes to bad HABITS that could easily attract vermin or disease? Namely, leaving dirty dishes overnight in the sink, for example. Dust mites, fleas and lice are no laughing matter, either.

Bottom line: If parents can and should be expected to teach kids that, for the sake of one's health, many daily chores simply cannot be postponed, such as bathing, flossing, exercise, eating vegetables, etc., they can also teach them that removing dangerous clutter DAILY, plus dusting and vacuuming at least twice a month isn't just for the family's sake; it's common courtesy for the sake of family and guests alike. Many a guest can see and smell what you can't, after all.

Not to mention that some types of snobbery are actually good for society. By that, I mean that it's GOOD when we look down on members of royal families, all over the world, who, like the Emperor Pu Yi, have no idea how to tie their shoes, turn off a faucet, or put toothpaste on their toothbrushes. (I doubt the average American teenage boy really aspires to that level of incompetence, but one never knows.)

If men are really so sick of the buffoonish media image of dads and men in general, they could change it by not only boycotting any future Homer Simpson characters, but insisting their sons learn how to do everything around the house. (Same goes for daughters and home repairs, of course.)