The Competition To Gnaw Away At Civil Liberties
Matt Welch observes at Reason that politicians across the U.S. are now "vying to see who can impose the most freedom-infringing clampdown in the name of flattening the curve."
We've been in lockdown in LA -- the city where the Mayor blinked like a cow as the homeless population multiplied and multiplied...but yay, we'll host Olympics, his boyhood dream, which will be ruinous.
Matt writes:
It is worth thinking this stuff through a bit more than your average politician. I sit squarely on the worst-case-scenario side of the spectrum and have been practicing the kinds of social distancing de Blasio is only belatedly preaching, but there are at least four main commonsense objections to curfews that arise even before you start considering the constitutionality and massive economic impact of it all.1) Shutting most everything down creates real shortages, not just the no-toilet-paper-at-Whole-Foods kind. The more people and industries you order locked down, the more supply chains get broken, the more stores shutter, the fewer goods are available. We all still need stuff, even if we're sitting indoors all day. And in cramped, big cities like New York, where living space is at a premium, there is frequently neither storage space nor predilection for stocking up on weeks' worth of food at a time.
2) Compressing the commercial day will mean more people shopping together in close quarters. The smart play until now among germaphobes has been hitting up the local Rite Aid in the wee small hours. Mayors, county executives, and governors are increasingly foreclosing that option.
3) Law enforcement has more urgent priorities than policing the free movement of citizens. At a moment when National Guard reservists are being called up to build emergency ICU capacity, do we really want available man/womanpower scaring peaceable residents straight?
4) Human beings do not have a limitless capacity for self-imprisonment. We are about to see a lot of resentment from the healthy Youngs about how they no longer have jobs or the ability to make student loan payments because of draconian governmental measures to combat a disease disproportionately affecting the Olds. But even setting that aside, in the absence of V-1 bombs flying overhead, people are eventually going to bust out of their containment. Setting up legal regimes in contravention of human nature is a recipe for all kinds of trouble.
How do these curfews and mandatory quarantines end? No really, how do they? What does success look like? When is the "emergency" over? We see very little acknowledgment that these questions are even relevant, let alone attempts to answer them amid the cascade of competitive shutdowns.
I'm staying home. I moved my appointment with my accountant to May in hopes of being able to meet with him then rather than doing it remotely.
I was really only leaving the house one day a week -- to work as a volunteer mediator at LA City Hall, doing free mediation for LA residents.
Now the program is retooling to be remote and I'm just waiting for them to finalize the details.
Most other people I know are avoiding contact with others -- though some will obviously violate that. I think we need to be very careful about ruining business and blowing off civil liberties in the name of "safety." Killing the golden goose to save the golden goose is ultimately a bad idea.
As Matt put it:
I, too, urgently hope that people mostly stay the hell away from each other over the coming weeks. But not at gunpoint, and not in such a way that creates new and perhaps even worse pathways for unhealthy behavior. Let's be careful out there both personally and governmentally.
And now Chloé:
One of the political challenges of this time is that those who raise alarm over the potential of civil liberties being trammeled on by the govt. and those who raise alarm over how failure to follow govt/health guidelines will result in increased fatalities are both correct.
— Chloé S. Valdary 📚 (@cvaldary) March 22, 2020
This might set an example for future politicians fighting to save the world from catastrophic climate change.
Ken R at March 22, 2020 12:28 AM
I cracked yesterday. Full blown sobbing and yelling in the backyard, where all the neighbors could hear.
I've been holding up pretty well. We've had enough food for now and haven't had to venture out much, except for walks in the woods. Kids have been gardening, houseworking, homeschooling, and playing outside and with dolls and things.
What set me off was gardening, and the kid wanting to plan ahead for other plants we would get "later", and I just couldn't take it, I don't know when the "later" will be when I can go out and buy my kids some pink carnations to plant. I just started yelling, "I can't get them for you!" over and over.
I think being the one who looks in the fridge and shelves and freezer and thinks, "Do I have enough to make healthy meals for a while, how long will this last, how fast are we going through everything" is kind of wearing on me.
Guys... it's only been a week. And I'm at home in a house with a yard, and we still have the ability to go for walks in nature.
I talked (via Whatsapp) to my friends and pretty much all the moms have had a moment like this.
It's only been a week.
I dunno, maybe we will all settle into a routine and it will become normal for us, but shit.
NicoleK at March 22, 2020 12:36 AM
This guy is an optimist:
But if we were going to allow one last tweak of language, this might be it:That seems reasonable… Physical distancing is what I'll call it. Those who'd interrupt to say I'm using the wrong jargon will probably recognize the error as the words leave their lips.Crid at March 22, 2020 2:24 AM
I am NOT homeschooling. Our school starts online April 6th and I'm fully confident will start where they left off and go into summer to catch up so THAT nonsense is right off my list.
Which is good, cause I'm working 14 hour days, 5 days a week right now as an RN, without sufficient PPE cause #panic....
I live in TX, HEB is rockin' it with the restocking, curbside, and delivery. Also, we are rural so plenty of farmstands, farmers markets, and country grocers so food no worry.
We have internet, live on acreage with animals to care for and be entertained by, and my kids are HALLELUJAH old enough to not require supervision, though having some would be ideal.
Hubby is essential healthcare too, so with the lovely PPE shortages we will get it, just a matter of when.
I'm also pretty sure this has been around a while. There is zero percent chance this wasn't poppin' in Wigan well before they let the world know, and people were still travelling. 1500 company execs from the company I work for went to our annual conference in Vegas in Jan, over half came home sick like flu, high fevers, but none tested positive for flu. Same thing with friends who went to Vegas in Jan.
All were well and fine in a week which is the rule, not the exception, with this Covid 19. If you aren't really old or chronically I'll, you're fine.
Headlines this week: Houston has first Corona Death (dude was 97, it was coming)
Corona Virus claim lives on Infant and Teenager (infant multiple chronic illnesses, was already hospitalized with small bowel obstruction and multi organ failure, both highly fatal in ill babies)
The hysteria ISNT warranted, but here we are. People in America refuse to remember that lives have an expiration point, and no we should NOT intensively artificially keep alive ill people in their 80s and 90s. Ever intubated or done CPR on an elderly person? It's inhamane, cruel, torture.
I really feel for moms home with young kids. But truly, you can order plants online, Nicole. There's almost nothing you can't order online, if knowing you can get your kids a plant or game helps you right now.
Momof4 at March 22, 2020 6:37 AM
Poppin' in Wuhan. We need an edit button..
Momof4 at March 22, 2020 6:39 AM
“Ever intubated or done CPR on an elderly person? It's inhamane, cruel, torture.”
So is chemotherapy. If I wasn’t a total bitch the medical establishment would have been quite happy to put my elderly mother through this.
As it turned out, without the chemo, she got another eight really good years.
There certainly are limits as to what we can do to save people. And there are even greater limits on what we can do to save people from themselves. Drugs booze cigarettes and obesity kill more people every day than the corona virus ever will.
This doesn’t mean we ignore sensible precautions, but there is no doubt that when government is given the chance to crack down, they always err on the side of totalitarianism.
Isab at March 22, 2020 7:24 AM
We already detain (handcuffs are SO much more comfortable when you don't say "arrest", right?) people for simply not telling police who they are.
We allow morons to pat down preteens because their actual, documented, parents want to fly on an airplane - and some cheer this.
Recall my idea that Reasoning Deficit Disorder is a disease on par with Asperger's and autism? It's been around for a while.
It causes us to believe what we read in print so long as it is awful.
It causes us to call the act of flying into the WTC "cowardice", as we displace our own fear readily and emphatically to deny that anyone could give their life to a cause.
Faced with "freedom", the common man BEGS for shackles. They will keep him safe!
So what made you think anything these officials do should be a surprise?
We, the public, will NOT say NO to anything, no matter how outlandish, if it will be inconvenient.
Radwaste at March 22, 2020 8:27 AM
A bureaucracy always defaults to rigid enforcement of the rules. It's the nature of a bureaucracy and of bureaucrats.
Conan the Grammarian at March 22, 2020 8:29 AM
For NicoleK, when you feel like cracking up a bit.
https://youtu.be/sPGrvymxFnk
I R A Darth Aggie at March 22, 2020 9:13 AM
> I live in TX, HEB is rockin' it
> dude was 97, it was coming> with the restocking, curbside,
> and delivery. Also, we are rural
> so plenty of farmstands,
> farmers markets, and country
> grocers so food no worry
The outlines of your fellowship grow clearer.
Crid at March 22, 2020 10:55 AM
As a friend of mine noted: It's been only one week, and already some parents are realizing the teacher wasn't the problem after all.
Kevin at March 22, 2020 11:14 AM
momof4- I'm also pretty sure this has been around a while. There is zero percent chance this wasn't poppin' in [Wuhan] well before they let the world know, and people were still travelling... The hysteria ISNT warranted, but here we are... If you aren't really old or chronically ill, you're fine.
Exactly. This virus was going around Wuhan possibly even before December. They didn't start restricting travel between countries until late January - the WHO was still advising against it in early February. The outbreak coincided with the Lunar New Year, a big holiday in China. During that time there were millions of people going to and from Wuhan all over the world, including the US and Italy, like the first person to be diagnosed in Seattle and the first three in Italy. A headline on January 27th said: "5 million people left Wuhan before China quarantined the city to contain the coronavirus outbreak".
momof4: I'm working 14 hour days, 5 days a week right now as an RN... without sufficient PPE cause #panic... so with the lovely PPE shortages we will get it, just a matter of when.
I'm not working as many hours as you are, but a lot more than usual, often 12 and an occasional 16. A lot more staff than usual are off work. Also I work in adolescent mental health. When the kids are out of school our census goes down. Two of my nieces are also RNs. Where one of them works they have to lock up face masks, gloves, alcohol and iodine swabs, gauze pads, pulse oximeters, goggles -all of the PPE supplies - and other items, and restrict who has access to them, because patients and even some staff have been stealing them. It doesn't make sense because there is nothing about the COVID-19 outbreak that increases the need for those things in everyday life. If you're out somewhere that you might be exposed to COVID-19, wearing a Halloween mask might help because it could keep you from touching your face.
The threat of COVID-19 doesn't justify all the totalitarian restrictions, but it's possible the restrictions could still save thousands of lives... from the flu.
Ken R at March 22, 2020 3:18 PM
Harvey Weinstein. It's just a rumor... Nonetheless, the streets of Hollywood are moistly salted by the tears of his many admirers.
Y'know, there's going to be some death and a whole of suffering, especially for those who couldn't get into overloaded hospitals. But I'm starting to think the US has about a 30% chance of getting out of this will less that 100K dead from the disease itself. Maybe 50K.
That's probably bullshit. I have no clue.
The economic, political and cultural impacts are going to torment us nonetheless.
Crid at March 22, 2020 3:23 PM
> This virus was going around Wuhan
> possibly even before December.
They can calculate from genetic analysis: It jumped from animal to a human in the late second or early third week of November, with the first human case seeking treatment on the 17th.
Crid at March 22, 2020 3:31 PM
The cutoff for “too old to treat” keeps getting lower and lower in Italy, but it’s okay bc we are going to die someday, right?
https://m.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856
Sheep Mom at March 22, 2020 4:41 PM
Twitter calls that "Boomercide."
Oh, BTW… That new school bond issue you were hoping to issue?
Yeah. Right.
Crid at March 22, 2020 4:51 PM
Twitter calls that "Boomercide."
I've seen similar comments in various places, but they're a bit off the mark. By far the highest death rate is among those 80 and older; the oldest Boomers are 75.
Rex Little at March 22, 2020 8:58 PM
Thanks IRA!
Guys, it's a fun time of year to go foraging. Dandelions are out. You can eat the leaves in salad, turn the flowers into jam or wine, or fry 'em up in fritters, and turn the buds into capers.
We've got bear garlic here, I suppose stateside there must be some local wild ramps.
Also, nettles.
NicoleK at March 23, 2020 12:02 AM
Haven't you been paying attention? Anyone over 50 is a Boomer and anyone under 50 is a Millennial.
Conan the Grammarian at March 23, 2020 3:55 AM
Crid Says:
"But I'm starting to think the US has about a 30% chance of getting out of this will less that 100K dead from the disease itself. Maybe 50K."
The US is on track to exceed 100K within 7 days.
That we will exceed 100K positive tests overall is pretty much a forgone conclusion at this point.
Your 30% prediction is extremely optimistic.
Artemis at March 23, 2020 10:08 AM
Crid,
Sorry, I misunderstood your post... you are talking about "dead" and not infections.
I don't actually think we will have that many dead.
We will have that many infected though.
Artemis at March 23, 2020 10:12 AM
Artemis: That we will exceed 100K positive tests overall is pretty much a forgone conclusion at this point.
The reason we don't have more than 100,000 positive tests now is that there are only enough test supplies to test a fraction of the people who might have the disease. Healthcare providers are still being selective about who they use the tests on (in most places only people with symptoms and whose symptoms are serious, or have risk for serious complications, or have known exposure, or for whom a positive test result will make a difference in treatment) Of the people they've tested about 6% are positive. For the vast majority of people COVID-19 is just a cold, so they don't need or look for treatment or testing.
Ken R at March 23, 2020 1:20 PM
About half of people with COVID-19 in Iceland and a third in China have no symptoms.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-22/one-third-of-coronavirus-cases-may-show-no-symptom-scmp-reports
Ken R at March 23, 2020 3:58 PM
Ken R,
I am aware that the issue is a lack of comprehensive testing.
"Healthcare providers are still being selective about who they use the tests on (in most places only people with symptoms and whose symptoms are serious, or have risk for serious complications, or have known exposure, or for whom a positive test result will make a difference in treatment) Of the people they've tested about 6% are positive."
This isn't quite accurate.
The selection process is based on whether or not you have been in contact with someone who already tested positive for the virus and/or you have recently traveled to a select number of other countries.
As a result they will test you with very mild symptoms if you say you have been in contact with someone who already has the virus as a contact risk... but if you show up with a high fever and other flue like symptoms without knowledge of any direct contact you are unlikely to receive a test.
The issue at hand given what we know is that there are tons of people with the virus that we cannot track due to lack of testing, but our criteria for testing is known positive tests.
The entire response is a giant debacle.
We even now have folks dying from following Trumps non-expert medical "advice" that chloroquine is a cure:
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com
Artemis at March 24, 2020 4:29 AM
We even now have folks dying from following Trumps non-expert medical "advice" that chloroquine is a cure
I'm sorry, but anyone who dies because he took medical advice from the President (any President, except Ben Carson or Ron Paul if one of them should ever be elected) instead of a real doctor is a leading candidate for the Darwin Award.
Rex Little at March 24, 2020 12:11 PM
Artemis: As a result they will test you with very mild symptoms if you say you have been in contact with someone who already has the virus as a contact risk...
Exactly. Like I said, "known exposure". Symptoms plus "suspected exposure" would probably qualify too. In my profession, when we take a medical history we always ask about signs and symptoms of infectious diseases and possible exposures, even before anyone ever heard of COVID-19, SARS or MERS, and then order tests as indicated. Is MERS (Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome) racist now?
Artemis: but if you show up with a high fever and other flue like symptoms without knowledge of any direct contact you are unlikely to receive a test.
It depends. If you have mild symptoms and no known exposure, but some other condition puts you at high risk for serious complications, or for some reason knowing the test result would make a difference in the treatment you receive, then your doctor would probably order a test. There might also be other reasons unique to an individual for ordering tests.
Artemis: We even now have folks dying from following Trumps non-expert medical "advice" that chloroquine is a cure
That's ridiculous. If Trump said Tylenol might relieve a headache, would you blame him for everyone who overdoses on Tylenol? You probably already do. What's really needed at this time is some kind of effective therapy for Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Ken R at March 24, 2020 1:43 PM
Rex Little Says:
"I'm sorry, but anyone who dies because he took medical advice from the President (any President, except Ben Carson or Ron Paul if one of them should ever be elected) instead of a real doctor is a leading candidate for the Darwin Award."
Unfortunately there may be many such candidates this year then.
As you can see folks are already hoarding these chemicals despite a lack of clear clinical evidence that it is effective as a treatment.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/24/stop-hoarding-hydroxychloroquine-many-americans-including-me-need-it/
Artemis at March 25, 2020 3:59 AM
Ken R Says:
"That's ridiculous. If Trump said Tylenol might relieve a headache, would you blame him for everyone who overdoses on Tylenol? You probably already do. What's really needed at this time is some kind of effective therapy for Trump Derangement Syndrome."
Don't be daft Ken.
Tylenol is well known and established to be a pain reliever that is useful for headaches. It is also a chemical that is available over the counter.
It is irresponsible for Trump to recommend the use of an untested medication as a "cure" when we don't actually know what the efficacy is.
A major part of the problem here are the Trump sycophants who refuse to acknowledge when the guy screws up.
Artemis at March 25, 2020 4:02 AM
On the other hand, there is this: https://www.wnd.com/2020/03/doctor-treated-350-coronavirus-patients-100-success/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=wnd-breaking&utm_campaign=breaking&utm_content=breaking
It doesn't come from an unbiased source, but what does these days?
Rex Little at March 25, 2020 4:25 PM
I just read the article Artemis linked to. It says that what the man died of was not the antimalarial drug Trump recommended, but rather a version of chloroquinine that's used to clean fish tanks.
Think of it as evolution in action (with apologies to Larry Niven).
Rex Little at March 25, 2020 4:47 PM
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