"That one has special relevance given this year's rioters and looters who upended several cities and exposed their political leaders as weak and indecisive."

They weren't weak or indecisive. They supported the rioters. Given how they oppressed many other people who live in their jurisdiction they in no way were weak. Nor was there any hesitation with using force against other politically aligned groups. They supported the rioters. The issue wasn't inability to shut them down. It was lack of desire.

I think it's unrealistic to think we could be a country without taxes, but I think we are vastly more taxed than we should be because, well, no money spends like other people's money...and especially other people's money in giant government coffers. ~ Amy

Amen.

We do need government, albeit limited government. And we do need to pay taxes to finance that limited government.

The income tax was, in retrospect, probably a bad decision. It warped the perspective on taxation and limited to what degree the taxpayers could hold the government to account. Graduating the income tax (the so-called "progressive" income tax) divorced the recipients of government largesse from the providers.

Having the government seize the money before the taxpayers ever see it gave the act an imprimatur of being something other than robbery. Having a guy in a mask seize it after the taxpayer takes it home would be outright robbery.

"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns." ~ Mario Puzo

"When capitalism gets fucked up, the communists come back. They're waiting in the bushes." ~ Lawrence Garfield (from the movie, Other People's Money)

When the government wishes to give $1 to a person it must take $4 from another, keeping 75% for administrative expenses. See federal child support program and other government entitlement programs.

One thing I appreciated about Trump was his desire to pull out militarily of the rest of the world. I get that it is easier said than done, but really, that's a big part of what we're wasting money on/

No NicoleK. The military has been around 20% of the federal budget for a very long time. If you want to find the largest waste of money in the federal government you follow the money. Medicare, medicaid, and social security. Those three programs just about are the federal budget.

Um,. you don't see 20% as a big chunk?

Recent wars or not just about since the income tax went into effect the military has been ~20% of federal spending. Prior to that it was much much higher. I.e. 70% range. The military is one of the few original constitutional duties of the federal government.

And as for it being a big chunk, geriatric welfare is 37% of spending. A significantly bigger chunk. Non-geriatric welfare is 24%, a bigger chunk. Interest is running around 9% and growing. Defense is actually on it's low side right now at 15%. And everything else the government does (education, housing, meat inspectors, research, yada yada yada) is only 15% and shrinking as a percentage like the military.

I get that you think you can grab that 15% and go on a spending spree, but reality has never worked that way for previous administrations with similar goals. At least half of that spending is politically tied up. You have a better chance of cutting SS than redirecting those funds. And that politically tied funding covers most of the 'waste' you want to go after.

Then you look at spending over time and the problems are quite clear. The US spends $1.25 for every $1 of tax revenue it makes. And that number is growing. Where is the growth coming from? Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The military is on the low side at 15% not because of any cuts. Those three welfare programs have just grown so much faster they are devouring the entire US federal budget. Welfare programs in general are 77% of revenues and growing with no end in sight.

This is why no one cares about spending anymore. Anyone informed on the issue knows you can't get elected if you talk about cutting welfare (especially social security). And if you don't cut those welfare programs you can't control spending. They are the budget.

You can actually cut the military to zero and still not balance the budget.

So your spending and deficit hawks have given up. They just wait for the inevitable default and hope the US doesn't collapse entirely when that happens.

Just to give you a feel of what people are talking about with wasteful federal government spending here are the numbers as a percentage from a Forbs article on that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/02/06/trumps-new-war-on-wasteful-spending--an-advance-draft-of-the-presidents-budget-to-congress-fy2021/?sh=2bee229d4074

1. End Improper Year-End Waste - 2.2%
2. Putting an End to Improper Payments - 3.1%
3. Conducting Oversight of Spending - 0.6%

So Forbs (or Trump if you want) is talking about a grand reduction of 6%. And that is the advertising politician number. The real one is probably 0.6% or less. When you are already spending 125% of revenues this is called turning on the grass sprinklers while the house burns.

The disturbing thing is that progs act like if you are successful you must have stolen the money. Biden keeps talking about the rich paying "their fair share" when in fact the top 1% pay 50% of income taxes (roughly).
Almost no rich people just sit on a pile of gold like scrooge mcduck. They use their cash to start businesses. Jeff Bezos doesn't have cash--he has Amazon stock. Furthermore, you only get rich by creating a business that people need (as walter willams pointed out). People love Apple products. Noone forces them to stand in line for the latest apple thing. Thanks to startups, you can get a package delivered overnight, stop by and pick up a fancy coffee, and watch hundreds of shows on your tv. Capitalism only makes money by making your life better. And anarchists want to tear it down? idiots.

cc "The disturbing thing is that progs act like if you are successful you must have stolen the money."
That's where progs get their money. It's how they think. They use government to steal it. Then it's a common pool resource for them to waste. Work is too tedious. Personal incomes are too small to have the grand effect. Thinking is hard.

Sixclaws, thanks for the plot thickener even though it's very depressing.

> that's a big part of what
> we're wasting money on

Nicolek, do you pay stateside taxes? How big a budget item is the military where you live?

Nicolek, do you pay stateside taxes? How big a budget item is the military where you live? ~ Crid at December 14, 2020 5:22 PM

And how much of Switzerland's defense needs are covered by being mostly surrounded by a US-funded NATO?

♥

Yes, the NATO thing is a good point.

Doesn't change the fact that for 20 years the US has been embroiled in a bullshit war in the Middle East, and yes I know the Dems voted for it too.

Switzerland's defense needs are 7.4% of the budget... it's a different system though because all the men are in the military unless they get an exemption.

I'm now a SAHM so I currently do not pay taxes in the US, but I've certainly worked in the US and paid taxes there. Works both ways... I was voting in Switzerland when my household wasn't paying taxes there either before we moved.

From a budgetary standpoint Iraq and Afghanistan are irrelevant. You can argue the benefits and losses from a policy perspective or humanitarian perspective but from a budgetary one they sum up to zero. No more or less was spent than would have been spent if those wars never happened.

> the US has been embroiled in
> a bullshit war in the
> Middle East

The taxpayers of the United States are sorry to hear that you feel this way.

Conan makes the larger point, that the one who pays the fiddler calls the tune. And despite Switzerland's relative discipline, for rest of the continent, that's the United States.

But in recent years, you'll have noted that many voters share your reticence towards aggression and readiness.

Good luck out there.

Assuming your comment from the other thread was intended for here:

"I wonder if creative solutions have been looked at like group housing for seniors..." ~NicoleK

There are a wide variety of options out there for seigniors. None of that has much to do with current welfare programs. SS pays cash and medicare pays for doctors. That alone is 37% of the budget and growing significantly every year.

Also mind the budget numbers I posted were pre-pandemic. Any pandemic related spending and revenue losses only accelerate an already well established trend.

Mind, the only reason I got into this conversation is because I'm a budget gnome.

Your line: "... that's a big part of what we're wasting money on" is demonstrably false. Waste in the US federal government spending is relatively evenly distributed. So if you are looking for most of the waste you are just looking for most of the spending.

As for comparing numbers with Switzerland, I don't know much about how their government spending is broken up. US government spending is mostly split between states and the federal government with the states being 30% and the fed being 60%. So from that perspective military spending is roughly 9% of government spending in the US. Not too far from the 7% you quote for the Swiss, but I don't know the numbers for total government spending so I may still be comparing apples to oranges.

It was on Wikipedia. I'm not the one who brought up Swiss budgets I was replying to it. I agree it is totally apples to oranges, Switzerland is a tiny confederacy and the US is not. What works in one may not work in the other. (Though of course successes in another country are always worth looking at)

I found comparable numbers!

In 2019 the US spent 3.4% of GDP on the military.
Switzerland spent 0.7%.

When you look at things as a percentage of all military spending in the world the US sits around 30%. But the US has a lot of money. As a share of GDP it is 14th highest at 3.4%. I'm not sure where it sits as a percentage of government spending. The list only had the top 15. South Korea at number 15 was 12.1%. The US at under 9% was well below that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures