Apparently, a large number of Americans already live in Oz, by their own accounts.

I wish people I want to respect would stop using words like "insurrection" and "coup."

Jan 6 was a mob of lonely idiots. "Riot" is the most complicated applicable term.

Pretending it can only be described with big, dramatic words verifies the politico's detachment.

I don't even think the interlopers were "extremists." They don't have the brains for a political position, let alone the mutual coherence.

This was a MOB.

It's a riot when goofballs burn down your neighborhood.

It's a coup when goofballs *checks notes* trespass and cause general mayhem in their neighborhood.

I wish people I want to respect would stop using words like "insurrection" and "coup." ~ Crid at January 8, 2021 4:54 AM

I wish people for whom I have no respect would stop tossing charges of treason around lightly, trying to stir up a crowd.

We already had a president who injudiciously used inflammatory rhetoric to stir up a crowd. What we don't need is more of that.

Cooler heads need to prevail in this.
__________

It's a coup when goofballs *checks notes* trespass and cause general mayhem in their neighborhood. ~ IRA Darth Aggie at January 8, 2021 5:53 AM

It's a coup when you can *checks notes* use it against your political opponents and exaggerate events to charge those opponents with treason on your way to creating one-party rule.
__________

Mind you, none of us insisting this was not a coup are saying in any way not to punish the people who invaded the Capitol. We're saying get the crime right. It was not sedition or insurrection.

Nor did Trump urge them to take over the Capitol. He was foolish and injudicious in his exhortation to the crowd earlier, but it's clear he wanted a mass protest, not an occupation.

Trump will suffer for his lack of discretion and his vanity. His will not be a respected presidential retirement. No publisher will clamor for his memoirs. He will not be called upon to attend White House events with the other former presidents. Nor will there be speaking engagements and board seats waiting for him in retirement. I would not be surprised if his pension was cancelled. He'll have to fund his library, if any, on his own. He will likely go down in ignominy, even if only due to events of the past few weeks. I doubt most cities will let his company build any major projects within the city limits, so his business interests are ruined.

The concept of hubris is not easily translated from pagan to modern times. Trump, nonetheless, suffered from it. The Democrats, in a fit of their own hubris, have appointed themselves Nemesis. Their downfall is coming. And that won't be pretty either.

Objecting to the certification of the Electoral College vote count is not, by itself, sedition. Nor is asking people to protest it. If the objectors actually believe the vote is invalid, it is their duty to object. Arresting or unseating them simply for that objection would, in fact, be a move toward establishing one-party rule. And that would be a coup.
__________

Now, while we're at it, let's take a moment to reflect on what drove this madness. Our election process is what makes us a democratic nation. The people who should be guardians of the integrity of that election system are treating it with a casual sloppiness that has given the vote and the vote count the appearance of having been compromised, if not the reality of having been compromised.

When voters in a democracy have faith in the integrity of the system, they don't storm the Bastille. They organize, they protest, and they urge people to vote. When voters lose faith in the system, they storm the gates.

A disturbingly large number of voters believe this election was compromised in favor of Joe Biden, including a significant portion of the winning party's voters.

It's time the people who should be the guardians of the integrity of our election system answer for their negligence, or prove the contrary.

Conan Says:

"Mind you, none of us insisting this was not a coup are saying in any way not to punish the people who invaded the Capitol. We're saying get the crime right. It was not sedition or insurrection."

Sedition is in fact the correct crime to describe what occured:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

This seditious mob did in fact use force to hinder and delay the execution of the law as described by the Constitution.

Furthermore, they took by force the Capitol building contrary to the existing authority (which would be Congress).

This was in fact sedition despite your deepest desire it was something else.

Mind you... the evidence we have thus far does not suggest treason occurred in the strict criminal sense because that requires an element of levying war and/or aiding a foreign enemy.

However, things like insurrection, seditious conspiracy, and advocating overthrow of government are all on the table.

These folks will be going to prison for a long time.

Oh good, Artie's back. And notice how he showed up as soon as I commented. You really do have a thing for me, Artie.

When I was in the first grade, my neighbor's little sister, M, younger than I was, insisted we were going to get married one day. She followed me around like a puppy. For years, I assumed Charles Schultz's Sally Brown, with her crush on Linus, was based on M. You, dude, are that little girl.

You enter dangerous ground, Artie, when you throw around terms like sedition and treason. You can use that same law to argue that the BLM attack on the federal courthouse in Portland was sedition, an attempt to "seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof." Remember, you defended those as not riots, but peaceful demonstrations about injustice and equality, insisting BLM was peaceful, despite the number of buildings left burning at their "mostly peaceful" demonstrations.

Your burning hatred for all things not lefty has you insisting these idiots are "treasonous scum" and deserve to be charged with sedition, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years; or with treason, which carries a maximum sentence of death. You want to see this incident used as leverage to have Republicans in Congress unseated and Trump frog-marched to prison. You want one-party rule by the far-left faction of the Democrats.

Artie, you are, at best a useful idiot to the takeover and, at worst, complicit in it. You are that kid in Cabaret singing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me."

Orion, it's not your country, why do you care? Why should we care what you think of it?

He's Chinese. It's the only explanation for his shame about his real life and his fascination with the glamorous United States.

If there's a clear winner of these presidential election is Silicon Valley.

It proved to the world that it can silence anyone in the United States with impunity and there's no one capable of stopping them.

The dangers were real.

The dangers were real.

Particularly if you bumped our head on unfinished brick.

Or if you were allergic to hairspray.

> Or if you were allergic to hairspray.

Or to the funk of Irish Spring.

Going through old comments: Props to Conan for reading between the Lions.

Pretending it can only be described with big, dramatic words verifies the politico's detachment.

Or it verifies the politico's (or anyone else's) emotional involvement:

I stand in support of "the resistance."

I stand in opposition to a "coup."

"Play stupid games; win stupid prizes" doesn't seem to have the same emotional cachet.

Reception at the fillin' station! What could go wrong?

(Ask the blond at right.)




Did Cousin Dave ever come back?

Reception at the fillin' station! What could go wrong? ~ Crid at January 8, 2021 8:05 AM

Well, at least no one will smoke; for long, that is.

Well, at least no one will smoke; for long, that is.

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "flash mob," anyway...

...verifies the politico's ... emotional involvement: I stand in support of "the resistance." ~ Old RPM Daddy at January 8, 2021 7:59 AM

"Resistance" was meant to evoke images Trump as a dictator and paint the opposition Democrats as noble freedom fighters.

As much as I've decried the Left's tendency to drift toward authoritarianism, I will not be joining any "resistance" to the Kamala Harris Administration with Joe Biden as president. I'll satisfy myself with being what used to be called the "loyal opposition."

And yes, I will bemoan (and joyously mock) the overly self-righteous platitudes and hero worship delivered by an adoring and sycophantic media upon Biden's ascension to office.

"...I’m considered a member of the loyal opposition—accent on the loyal. I’d have it no other way." ~ John Wayne (attending a 1977 pre-inauguration reception for Jimmy Carter, against whom he campaigned).
__________

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "flash mob," anyway... ~ Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at January 8, 2021 9:04 AM

Nice.

Biden.

Conan Says:

"You enter dangerous ground, Artie, when you throw around terms like sedition and treason. You can use that same law to argue that the BLM attack on the federal courthouse in Portland was sedition, an attempt to "seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof." Remember, you defended those as not riots, but peaceful demonstrations about injustice and equality, insisting BLM was peaceful, despite the number of buildings left burning at their "mostly peaceful" demonstrations."

Why do you always have to lie about everything?

I'm not just haphazardly tossing around terms like sedition and treason... in fact I was very clear that the evidence here does not support a charge of treason at this point.

Sedition on the other hand is very clear on the basis of the statute.

That is the Capitol building Conan... they sieged and ransacked the very seat of our democracy in an effort to delay or prevent the counting of electoral votes in accordance with our Constitution and you think that the term sedition is too much?

Good grief... you are beyond hope.

What they did was pretty much a text book case of seditious conspiracy. The use of the word sedition in this situation is not hyperbole.

As for vandalizing the exterior walls of a court house in Portland... that cannot possibly be construed as an attempt to "seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof."... there was no attempt to breach the walls or gain entry.

They committed a crime of vandalism, at no point did I defend vandals as engaging in peaceful protests. I said there were people protesting peacefully and there were some vandals.

These aren't even remotely the same thing.

I have no issue with any folks who were peacefully protesting outside of the Capitol... but any individual who forcefully accessed the building and drove the Senators and Congressional Representatives out while they were performing the countries business were indeed engaging in sedition.

People who spray paint the exterior of federal buildings are vandals... people who occupy the Capitol using force are seditious traitors... and people who protest without the use of violence are expressing their 1st amendment rights.

None of this is that difficult to understand.

Biden.

Crid, I think while it was happening it felt very exciting and revolutionish. Then it was over and it didn't anymore.

More news just in... the seditious traitors beat a Capitol Police officer to death with fire extinguishers:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-capitol-police-officer-dies-20210108-f5sy2jrnj5d7jibygzcgiamtny-story.html

Conan, I don’t understand the assertion of negligence concerning guardians of the integrity of our election system. I’ve honestly been trying to find any credible evidence that isn’t just fantasy conspiracy theory peddled by the right. Isn’t the burden of proof on those claiming foul play to prove it? Not the other way around.

Also, it kinda seems like you and Crid aren’t totally taking into account how this could have been much worse, if gobsmacked representatives wouldn’t have hightailed it out of the room immediately. There were masked jackasses in there with guns and zip cuffs wanting to do real harm to elected reps. There were folks that wanted to lynch Pence as a Johnny come lately traitor. It wasn’t all Aunt Tifa losers and clowns stealing podiums and posing for selfies and leaving nasty notes in dem offices.

It’s also interesting hearing stories of some capitol police palling around with the mob. Letting them in. And apparently some military and police flashing badges to get in and join the mob. It’s sickening. I don’t know how it isn’t sedition for these people. Not sure what to call the elected representatives who have been feeding lies to their base to stoke these fires. They aren’t fit to govern though. Not in my mind.

Wish I wrote as good as you guys. Always love reading your comments. Learned a lot over the years.

Artie, you defended BLM when I criticized it for not condemning the violence being committed in its name and for being a proto-Marxist organization. You insisted BLM was only interested in peaceful protests, racial justice, and ending police brutality. I provided you with quotes from the BLM Website where BLM advocated things well beyond racial justice and ending police brutality and cites where the leaders advocated Marxism and praised international Marxists.

And what did you do? You stuck your fingers in your ears and hummed. You insisted I was wrong and even pointed to reports that some of the violence at BLM rallies was being committed by right-wing infiltrators as a defense for all of the violence.

Ironically, now there are reports emerging of video evidence that a Utah man who organized several violent BLM protests was at the Capitol during the occupation and was filmed standing beside the woman who was shot to death, shortly before she was shot. There's also video evidence emerging of Trump supporters trying to prevent the Capitol from being breached. Some are saying the Capitol occupation was the work of left-wing infiltrators who sought to discredit the Trump supporters.

I don't know how true all of that is, but it looks to me like the Democrats and the Left (but I repeat myself) intend to use this incident as their Reichstag Fire and that should worry all of us.

Artie, you need to learn that saying this occupation is not sedition or treason is still compatible with saying it is reprehensible and needs to be punished. This was intolerable and the perpetrators, of whatever political stripe, need to be punished, and quickly. However, it was not "seditious conspiracy" whoever committed it.

In a similar vein, Artie, Saying there were obviously shenanigans with the election process and it needs to be fixed is not saying Trump did not lose the election. I said weeks ago that Trump needed to concede, despite a pile of circumstantial evidence of election shenanigans. None of it was actionable enough to justify overturning an election certified by the states.

And yes, Artie, using fireworks and Molotov cocktails to assault a federal building would qualify as sedition under the law you cited. It's not simple vandalism to attack a federal building with incendiary devices. Please note, I'm not insisting the BLM/Antifa protestors who did that be charged with sedition, merely point out they could be under the standard you're applying here.

Now, Artie, have you yet bothered to read the Dr. Biden dissertation you so indignantly insisted I provide you with? No. I figured as much. Par for the course with you.

Crid, I think while it was happening it felt very exciting and revolutionish. Then it was over and it didn't anymore. ~ NicoleK at January 8, 2021 10:37 AM

NicoleK, I would say you're probably right on that.

We in the West tend to romanticize revolution and make heroes out of rebels, villains, and outlaws.

• Jesse James
• Robin Hood
• Ned Kelly
• William Tell
• Billy the Kid
• "Machine Gun" Kelly
• Bonnie and Clyde
• Al Capone
• Che Guevara
• the Weather Underground
• and more

One of the videos I saw of the incident had the police holding the door as the occupiers left. Some even waved at the police officers as if leaving a social gathering. Afterward the report showed protestors/rioters/occupiers chatting with the police.
__________

More news just in... the seditious traitors beat a Capitol Police officer to death with fire extinguishers: ~ Artemis at January 8, 2021 11:26 AM

Again with the hyperbole, Artie?

This report says he was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher. Another report said he collapsed at the police station. Neither report says whether he was hit once or repeatedly.

Nonetheless, the person, or people, who did that needs to be charged with the appropriate degree of murder.

And if any people acted in any way to prevent or obstruct medical assistance from reaching those who died after medical emergencies, they need to be charged and punished as well.

No one here is arguing otherwise.

How would you define people who try to burn down federal buildings?

https://news.yahoo.com/rioters-set-fire-federal-courthouse-181227253.html

> you and Crid aren’t totally taking
> into account how this could have
> been much worse, if gobsmacked
> representatives wouldn’t have
> hightailed it out of the room
> immediately

It would have been bad if elected representatives were attacked. But there were riots in Washington DC, flaming ones, injuring and blinding dozens of officers and God knows how many residents. That was bad, too.

I condemned those riots and condemn this one. But I don't do sanctity… Not for government places or people. They should be protected from idiot men who seek to affirm daydreams of grandeur through violence, as should everyplace and everyone else.

> while it was happening it felt
> very exciting and revolutionish.
> Then it was over and it didn't
> anymore.

Not sure what point you're making. Who cares what these things "felt" like, especially to rampaging mobs?

Crid, not disagreeing. Rioting ought always be condemned.

I might sanctify American Democracy a little bit in my heart. It’s given leeway for too many good things in this world not to love.

Conan,

You always have a penchant for mischaracterizing things and lying... and for constantly being wrong about facts and information.

You can try your gish gallop all you want... but your allegiance here is clear... and it isn't to the country.

Your allegiance is to a political party and that is all.

They murdered a police officer Conan... they ran our elected officials out of their chambers as they were counting the electoral votes for the president as proscribed in our Constitution.

You can bitch and moan about BLM vandals until the cows come home and you still would be wrong.

There is no equivalence here.

The BLM folks have a stated goal of reducing police violence against people of color... there is no direct relationship between that and vandalism.

These MAGA folks have a stated goal of overturning the election... there is a direct relationship between that stated goal and them storming the capitol building to prevent the counting of the electoral votes.

Their goals and actions are aligned... and they murdered someone in the process.

"Again with the hyperbole, Artie?

This report says he was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher. Another report said he collapsed at the police station. Neither report says whether he was hit once or repeatedly."

For fucks sake Conan... you are now quibbling about exactly how many times he was hit with the fire extinguisher in the head?

That is your issue now?... that I said he was beaten to death and you think that is an exaggeration because it isn't clear if they hit him more than once?

Fuck off.

You are beyond help.

Conan, I don’t understand the assertion of negligence concerning guardians of the integrity of our election system. I’ve honestly been trying to find any credible evidence that isn’t just fantasy conspiracy theory peddled by the right. Isn’t the burden of proof on those claiming foul play to prove it? Not the other way around. ~ Abersouth at January 8, 2021 11:57 AM

No doubt, Abersouth. The burden of proof is on the claimants. Claims of malfeasance should be investigated. However, those claims are being pooh-poohed and dismissed as sour grapes rather than investigated. "We won, get over it," is the order of the day.

So far, I've only acknowledged the evidence as circumstantial - counting being done after the observers left, a statistically improbable number of one-off ballots (with only one race marked and no down ballot votes), signature matching requirements being suspended by on-site counting personnel and not the legislature, vote counts significantly higher than the number of registered voters, ballot counts for one party's candidates decreasing between displays (e.g., Perdue lost 5,000 votes in chyrons shown not 2 minutes apart), etc.

None of these are, by themselves, or even together, outright evidence of vote fraud, but they do make you say, "Hmmm," and should be addressed. You've got half the voters in this country convinced that the vote system is corrupted, including a significant number of the winning party's voters. You can't have a functioning democracy if voters don't have confidence in the integrity of the system. An investigation or audit would help clear this up and restore confidence in the election system.

Some of these will turn out to be false claims, others will be simple mistakes. And there's no evidence right now that any of them changed the outcome. That's why, weeks ago, I said Trump needs to concede.

These claims should be investigated and the vote count audited - not to depose the sitting president, but to prevent such mistakes from happening again. Once the states certify their election results, that's it for overturning the results.

Biden is the president, by the rules of the game. Whether he'll be a good one remains to be seen, but he's the legitimate president, no matter what the outcome of any audit.

Conan Says:

"One of the videos I saw of the incident had the police holding the door as the occupiers left. Some even waved at the police officers as if leaving a social gathering. Afterward the report showed protestors/rioters/occupiers chatting with the police."

You are living in a fantasy land... here is a video to give you some perspective:

https://twitter.com/KySportsRadio/status/1347031398176223233

There are others showing these seditious traitors ripping the facemask off of a Capitol Police officer and crushing him in a doorway as he screams for help.

And here you are pretending it was just a bunch of folks being given a tour and having pleasant discussions.

Artie, you can cut the act. You don't give a rat's ass about Officer Sicknick except that you can feign outrage and blame his death on people you hate.

Your motivations aren't noble, they're entirely base and highly partisan. You're not fooling anyone.

And quit following me.

Conan,

You are really gross.

These are the people you are aligning yourself and trying to provide cover for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=20m04s&v=cJOgGsC0G9U&feature=youtu.be

I care deeply about the lives of people who try and serve and protect.

You care deeply about how this will impact the Republican political agenda.

No one is following you either, I just call out nonsense when I see it... and as usual you are full of it.

...you are now quibbling about exactly how many times he was hit with the fire extinguisher in the head? ~ Artemis at January 8, 2021 12:34 PM

No one is quibbling anything, dumbass. It's a legitimate question when about to accuse someone of murder. Was he intentionally hit with a fire extinguisher? Was it thrown into a crowd and he got hit?

And what part of "needs to be charged with the appropriate degree of murder" did you miss while you were hyperventilating with the righteous indignation you wear like a second skin? Or did you just ignore it like you do so often with the parts of my posts that would disprove your allegations against me, leaping as usual to the worst interpretation you can manufacture?

Conan Says:

"No one is quibbling anything, dumbass. It's a legitimate question when about to accuse someone of murder. Was he intentionally hit with a fire extinguisher? Was it thrown into a crowd and he got hit?"

I am going to make you aware of something within the law that you do not seem to be aware of.

If you were involved in a crime... such as trying to break into a federal building, and in the course of that crime you were to throw a fire extinguisher at a crowd of police officers and the officer died as a result... that would be a murder charge regardless of your intention to kill or simply maim the officer on the receiving end.

Regardless of any of those finer details of the law... a federal murder investigation has already been announced.

I'm not calling it murder because I think it is murder... I am calling it murder because it is being investigated as murder.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/01/08/report-federal-murder-investigation-announced-over-death-of-capitol-police-officer/?sh=3fa8ee971e1d

Conan,

I'll also point out that there is a possibility that the rest of the people who forced their way into the Capitol might be charged as accessories to murder.

These are not decent folks just trying to have their voices heard.

They crossed a major line when they tried to subvert our democracy when they stormed the Capitol.

The people who stayed outside are not the issue.

> I am calling it murder

Again, Orion, again...

The reason we should care with what you call events in the United States is what, precisely?

Don't worry your pretty little head about it.

...that would be a murder charge regardless of your intention to kill or simply maim the officer on the receiving end.

No shit, Sherlock.

If the guys dies by your hand or your negligence, no matter what you intended to do to him, it's a murder charge of some degree. The question I asked had to do with the degree of the charge. Federal law recognizes two degrees of murder, First and Second. In federal law, both can carry a life sentence. Both require malice aforethought, but Second does not require a specific intent to kill. Hence my earlier question.

That a federal officer was killed will affect the charges filed. That the injuries were inflicted during a rampage through the Capitol will most certainly affect the charges filed.

No one is disputing that this person (or people) is going (and should go) to prison for a very long time, and may even receive the death penalty. In addition, because it was an invasion of the Capitol, the prosecutor could make an argument for adding sedition, or even treason charges. Treason carries a death penalty as well. The goal will be to pile as many charges on as possible and negotiate down to a guilty plea. The prosecutors will have a lot to throw at the perpetrator(s) of this crime.

I'd bet this gets plead down to a life sentence. All for what the guy probably thought was a lark.

> I might sanctify American
> Democracy a little bit in
> my heart.

Oh Dood, I hear you. Same here!

Me too!

But I don't think these guys had a meaningful shot at disrupting democracy. They wanted to wear funny clothes like ninjas in a Tom Cruise movie, and they wanted people to think they were someone to be afraid of for one time in their lives. But they had no plan whatever for commanding or exercising the levers of government.

Children can interrupt a Thanksgiving dinner, or a wedding ceremony, or a funeral. But they can't really strike at the things that mean the most to us.

If given a choice between the complete torching of the United States Capitol and all the small businesses which were burned in 2020, do you know which I'd have chosen? Do you know which I'd have thought better represented the spirit of democracy?

It's no contest.





PS-- I like you.

Speaker Pelosi wants us to know she has averted a nuclear war by asking the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff how to keep the nuclear launch codes from a runaway madman President hell-bent on a first strike against Russia. Or China. Or Ben & Jerry's.

Whichever.

Gog, I'd agree if he'd ever given any indication of comprehending the minutiae and nuances of his position in world affairs.

I care deeply about the lives of people who try and serve and protect. ~ Artemis at January 8, 2021 12:53 PM

Right. You "care deeply." And about the lives of those who "try serve and protect." Notice the qualifier "try and." You're leaving yourself an out. You don't have to care deeply about the lives of police officers in general, just the ones that you judge worthy, the ones who "try and serve and protect."

You claimed to "care" about the Constitution in an earlier thread, in the process implying the other person in that debate did not. Well, Artie, there are several people on this forum who have written a blank check to the government for any amount up to and including their lives in taking an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." I don't see your name on that list. So tell us again how deeply you care about the Constitution.

This is the third time in as many days that you've painted yourself as the one who cares about things other than yourself while painting the other person as someone who cares only about his own self aggrandizement. You've beaten than horse to death, Artie. Time to get a new horse.

"Commanding and exercising," as above, are kind of the same thing, and I feel bad for putting in that way.

But these guys were not about leadership or team mechanics.

Speaker Pelosi wants us to know she has averted a nuclear war by asking the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff how to keep the nuclear launch codes from a runaway madman President hell-bent on a first strike against Russia. Or China. Or Ben & Jerry's. ~ Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 8, 2021 3:20 PM

Speaker Pelosi seems unaware that the Secretary of Defense must verify a presidential order to release the nuclear weapons. Either that or Speaker Pelosi is grandstanding for political gain.

Conan Says:

"I'd bet this gets plead down to a life sentence. All for what the guy probably thought was a lark."

These guys thought it was a "lark" to storm the Capitol building to subvert democracy and violently attack officers of the law?

Why have I never seen you use such softball language for anyone other than right wing extremists?

Or are you suggesting that Trump supporters are uniquely stupid and incapable of understanding the very predictable consequences of their actions?

Lark my ass... some of these folks are on video indicating that they are part of a revolution.

You called me a "useful idiot" for being justifiably pissed at these seditious traitors... but they are just on a "lark".

"Gog, I'd agree if he'd ever given any indication of comprehending the minutiae and nuances of his position in world affairs."

Exactly. He's about as likely to push the button as Congress is going to stop getting insider trading information in closed-door hearings.

Ain't gonna happen.

Okay, but sitting here trying to recall having any faith in the guy where he didn't disappoint....

You're right, at this point, if he asked exactly where the button was kept (or the hotline to the pentagon, or the military attache), staffers would probably furrow their brows and say "what button were you speaking of?"

"trying to recall having any faith in the guy"

His appeal was the outsider, disturber of the swamp. But no, no expectations beyond pissing off the turtle and flummoxing the Clintons' final bid for power. Pelosi's nuke hysterics are ludicrous in the extreme.

Status quo returns on January 20.

That's gonna be weird. After four years of maximally inflammatory broadcasting, what will CNN et al do all day?

On the other hand, there was a crowd standing around a gallows chanting "Hang Mike Pence" and the images seem to be pretty damn bad...

https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/chris-99178053752?fbclid=IwAR3trrpqjXiTF0xKWNeLB0MJytT9wxlUzCiC96y9AtWzfZezXXnCsB2UsSU

NicoleK,

It was pretty damn bad... some folks here want to focus all of their attention on a couple of goofy photos of a guy carrying a podium and a furry Viking with horns... but that isn't really the story.

The real story involves a a bunch of traitorous scum who invaded the Capitol building of the United States in an effort to violently overturn a democratic election by murdering our elected officials.

As you point out, one of the targets here was the Vice President.

Some folks here are far more concerned that the "lefties" might engage in a "power grab" than they are at all concerned that right wing extremists were rampaging through the halls looking for elected officials to take hostage and/or murder.

All that they see are a bunch of goofy folks on a fool hardy adventure who didn't really mean any harm and were just having a few laughs.

That isn't reality though.

This reeks of glowie tactics.

Considering how easy it was for them to reach into the senate floor, while all those meth-laced pantifa couldn't do break into the government buildings in Portland.

This was about sending a message and it worked like a charm.

Orion —

"Reality" is that this isn't your country, and these matters don't concern you.

You shouldn't be wasting your time here when you have your own culture to worry about... And it's almost certainly in worse condition than ours. (The Uighurs comes to mind.)

And you certainly have no business annoying us.

You should get lost. (That's an American idiom, meaning "go away.")

All that they see are a bunch of goofy folks on a fool hardy adventure who didn't really mean any harm and were just having a few laughs. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 12:16 AM

One thing I find interesting about this debate, Artie - interesting but not unexpected - is that your philosophy allows no room for someone to be simultaneously appalled by the Capitol break-in and convinced it's not a coup. To you, it's all or nothing. Either one screams about "traitorous scum" or one is on the side of the mob.

Like I said, interesting, but not unexpected.

> not unexpected.

The guy's (or gal's) from a culture where you do what you're told, think what you're told, and authorities are always omnipotent. From the drunk on the airplane to this very moment, you'll not find a comment from him/her that deviates from this pattern.

Orion's shallow and arrogant, being unable to conceive of having a mind as nuanced & ironic as that of a Western man. In the home environment, reflecting on two contradictory patterns at the same time means you get steamrolled. Orion is from a two-dimensional universe, Left + Right and Forward + Backwards. We drop into Orion's thinking from above or below, sudden appearing in Orion's field of view, and Orion thinks it's witchcraft.

"an effort to violently overturn a democratic election by murdering our elected officials."

It least they went straight to the source of corruption, Congress. We probably ought to be thankful it wasn’t worse. Especially since we’ve watched 20 American cities on fire this summer and Democratic leadership let it happen. Did they expect no pushback? They may have stirred up the peckerheads by now. A risky strategy. Them fuckers can shoot. And they like it.

And this is absolutely Donald Trump’s finest moment. He could hardly have scripted a more perfect denouement. His grandstanding claims of voter fraud and a subsequent popular uprising are the stuff of political lore. And as he surrenders the stage to his foes, I mean, gets hounded out of office, his self-perceived martyrdom is boundless. Perfect timing too. They’ll probably name the recession after him.

That's gonna be weird. After four years of maximally inflammatory broadcasting, what will CNN et al do all day? ~ Crid at January 8, 2021 11:18 PM

The depends upon what the next few weeks bring on. For now, CNN will continue to stoke the fires of outrage.

Exactly four weeks after Adolf Hitler was sworn in as chancellor of Germany, the Reichstag (legislature) building was burned down in an arson attack. Communist agitators were blamed by the Nazis. Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch communist was arrested. Van her Lubbe claimed to have acted alone.

Today, historians speculate that the arson was committed under the direction of the Nazis themselves with the fire to be used as pretext for seizing power.

HItler convinced the German president, Paul von Hindenburg, to issue the Reichstag Fire Decree. The decree nullified many key civil liberties and was used as the legal basis for a crackdown on the communists. The decree was instrumental in the establishment of Nazi Germany.

"After the decree was issued, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party's parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from having a plurality to a majority, thus enabling Hitler to consolidate his power."

Can that happen here? Twitter and Facebook have already banned Donald Trump for life. While social media is not a civil liberty, those platforms are major modern communications media and someone banned from them is limited in his ability to communicate with the masses. Articles of Impeachment have already been drawn up against Donald Trump and the Democrats are threatening to file the if the Republicans don't use the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office. Better for her ambitions if the Republicans do the dirty work of removing him - less chance to be accused of orchestrating a takeover.

Now, a good argument can be made for Trump's removal. Similarly, a good argument can be made for leaving him in office for the few days he has left in his term. Dictating the removal of a president opens a can of worms that can never be closed - as does watching a frenzied crowd storm the Capitol building inspired by the rantings of a deluded president.

Nancy Pelosi announced loudly and for all to hear that she had taken steps to restrict Donald Trump's access to the nuclear codes - despite a politically-neutered Trump having conceded the election and having promised a smooth transition of power to Biden.

The next step in any takeover will be the removal of political opponents under a veneer of law.

Political takeovers need a bête noire and the Democrats have manufactured a good one in Donald Trump.

We can agree that Zuckerberg (perhaps with Dorsey) is the greater threat to the Republic.

Nonetheless, it's notable that precisely zero of Trump's formerly-so-contentious fanboys on this blog from the last five years have spoken up to defend him since election, let alone since the capitol riot.

Geez, they don't want to accuse anyone else of "derangement" anymore. Isn't that remarkable?

We can agree that Zuckerberg (perhaps with Dorsey) is the greater threat to the Republic.

Nonetheless, it's notable that precisely zero of Trump's formerly-so-contentious fanboys on this blog from the last five years have spoken up to defend him since election, let alone since the capitol riot.

Geez, they don't want to accuse anyone else of "derangement" anymore. Isn't that remarkable?

Crid at January 9, 2021 9:01 AM

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am in the position of not wanting to call attention to myself. Not here, not on Facebook, Twitter, or by donations to any political candidates or causes that I might support.

Yes, I believe there is a *list*, actually a number of them, and I don’t want to be on any of them.

Defending Trump is like defending Regan. At this time in history, does it really have a point? What purpose would it serve?

I’m going to change my party registration to independent and start donating small amounts to random Democrats. It’s like paying the Mafia. Distasteful, but in your best interest.

Our government is now is the pocket of big tech, the military industrial complex, and their sleazy foreign entanglements, built largely on graft. Yea, I’’m scared, and if you aren’t, I don’t think you understand exactly what has happened here.

I’m going to change my party registration to independent and start donating small amounts to random Democrats. It’s like paying the Mafia. Distasteful, but in your best interest. ~ Paranoid at January 9, 2021 10:03 AM

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

~ Rudyard Kipling

Conan Says:

"One thing I find interesting about this debate, Artie - interesting but not unexpected - is that your philosophy allows no room for someone to be simultaneously appalled by the Capitol break-in and convinced it's not a coup. To you, it's all or nothing. Either one screams about "traitorous scum" or one is on the side of the mob."

I stopped "debating" you a long long time ago.

You are never correct about anything and you always get your facts wrong and your logic is distorted.

I don't debate you in the same way I don't have debates with 5 year olds. I explain things to 5 year olds... and I explain things to you.

In any event, one thing I find interesting about your thought process is that once you've declared that in your opinion breaking into the Captiol building in an attempt to over throw a presidential election isn't a coup... apparently no one is allowed to disagree with you.

In your view, someone expressing disagreement is evidence that they are an all of nothing thinker.

This is a big world Coney my boy... lots of people are going to disagree with your uninformed and illogical opinions.

Spiderfall Says:

"And this is absolutely Donald Trump’s finest moment."

Say what you will about Hillary Clinton... but that lady sure recognizes a basket of deplorables when she sees one.

Conan Says:

"Political takeovers need a bête noire and the Democrats have manufactured a good one in Donald Trump."

Your lunacy has reached its peak... now the dumpster fire that was always Donald Trump was "manufactured" by the Democrats.

I don't know what drugs you are taking, but they must be really potent.

"Say what you will about Hillary Clinton... but that lady sure recognizes a basket of deplorables when she sees one."
Well, she sure has put on airs since they left the Governor's mansion.

> I believe there is a *list*

Sure... 'Anerica is a shadow realm of treachery and nuance.... A pitiless chessboard of cunning and retribution where good men die like dogs....' etc. etc. etc.

Fuck that. I always wanna be on the list, always. I've been doxxed a few times here, and it's a great way for everybody to be reminded where the line is with mildly pseudonymous commentary.

It doesn't matter who asks: When the question is "Are you with us or against us?," the answer is always "Against you."

Your lunacy has reached its peak... now the dumpster fire that was always Donald Trump was "manufactured" by the Democrats. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 12:01 PM

Artie, from moment he was elected, Dems have used Trump as their bête noire.

That he was of great help to them in doing so does not change the fact that they've spent the last four years declaring him to be the second coming of Adolf Hitler, or worse.

Even before the inauguration, they created a "resistance" to his presidency, as if the Nazis had moved into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

==========

In your view, someone expressing disagreement is evidence that they are an all of nothing thinker. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 11:51 AM

Sure, Artie, I think anyone who disagrees with me in any way is an all-or-nothing thinker.

You're an idiot, Artie.

It's not because you disagree with me that I characterized you as an all-or-nothing thinker, it's that you can't accept partial agreement with you.

I agree that breaking in the Capitol was a heinous act and deserves strict punishment. I do not agree that a bunch of hooligans who break in and rampage around, but do not attempt to set up an alternative government qualifies as a coup (an attempt to overthrow the government), even if those hooligans are attempting to disrupt a government function.

Crid slams Trump all the time and I generally agree with his assessment of the man. But Crid's criticism of Trump is based on fact while yours is based on emotion. Crid can also accept someone agreeing with a specific Trump policy without thinking that person is a devoted Trumpista. You cannot.

==========

Say what you will about Hillary Clinton... but that lady sure recognizes a basket of deplorables when she sees one. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 11:55 AM

Yeah, those right-wingers are sub-human. Let's kill 'em all.

Artie, it's dangerous to start thinking of your fellow human beings as "deplorables." That kind of thinking leads to things like gulags and the Holocaust.

> Your lunacy...

Orion, Honey, what is your problem?

You're not even in the same nation as Conan. You're not even on the same *continent*. It's blindingly obvious to anyone reads three of your words consecutively that it's not your native language. The crimson fury of your menstrual anger is inane. He's a very pleasant and well-read guy. There's just no reason to get so pants-pissed.

Wherever you are, it's got to be institutionally lonely... In a wheelchair.

It doesn't matter who asks: When the question is "Are you with us or against us?," the answer is always "Against you." ~ crid at January 9, 2021 1:40 PM

A contrarian at heart.

I think that's the thing the folks like Artie don't get, the instinct to avoid belonging to and following a collective; the instinct to peek when someone demands blind obedience.

The doctrine of blind obedience and unqualified submission to any human power, whether civil or ecclesiastical, is the doctrine of despotism, and ought to have no place among Republicans and Christians." ~ Angelina Grimke

When someone demands blind obedience, you'd be fool not to peek. ~ Jim Fiebig

Conan Says:

"Artie, from moment he was elected, Dems have used Trump as their bête noire.

That he was of great help to them in doing so does not change the fact that they've spent the last four years declaring him to be the second coming of Adolf Hitler, or worse."

Nonsense Conan... Trump made himself disliked all on his own long before he was even running for office.

Or do you suspect that him constantly saying that President Obama was the founder of ISIS and that he wasn't a legitimate president because he wasn't born in the United States and demanded his birth certificate was going to make him a beloved figure amongst the political left?

He has been sowing divisiveness and trying to set himself up as a disliked figure for years before he even started running for President... he tapped into an angry zeal amongst many on the right to "own the libs".

But you already know all of this... you said as much here:

"Politics is perception Artie, not facts and not logic. And Trump excels at things that require more perception than logic. He's a salesman and he's in his element right now.

Politics is a nudist camp, Artie. The emperor doesn't need clothes." - Conan the Grammarian at March 25, 2020 9:47 AM

You know that Trump has never been interested in promulgating the truth... that he simply wanted to create a perception that he was going to fight for the political right against the political left. He was never interested in unifying the country... his was always the politics of divisiveness.

He wanted this perception... he is the one who manufactured this... being disliked by the political left was all part of his own political strategy because the more he was disliked the more his ravenous base loved him for it.

This was a perception of his own making... as you said, he excels at that type of thing.

You are just pissed off because it bit you in the ass... I tried to warn you.

> Trump has never been interested

He's not your president, Muffin. Yours is the one who has two million people sterilized and living in concentration camps.

Crid,

I suspect all of these years that you've been pissed off at Trump is because in reality you are deeply jealous at how when he says non-stop lies he managed to get elected to the presidency... and yet when you say non-stop lies you just leave sweat stains on your mite infested couch.

Even your schtick is the same... he kept insisting that someone he didn't like wasn't born here... and you keep insisting that someone you don't like wasn't born here.

Let this sink in for a second... you aren't even more clever or intelligent than Trump... you have to rip that guy off.

Pathetic.

You are just pissed off because it bit you in the ass.... ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 2:25 PM

Nothing bit me in the ass, Artie, except letting the warranty on my BMW expire.

If that Indian guy had called me then, I might have listened to him, but the Jeep can be repaired with domestic parts.

Conan,

I don't know... you seem awfully salty about a "power grab" associated with Democrats winning elections.

When Republicans held the presidency and both houses of Congress back in 2016 I don't recall you using any rhetoric about a "power grab" or insisting that one party rule was indicative of an authoritarian government.

Only when Republicans legitimately lose the presidency and both houses of Congress do you suddenly insist that this is authoritarianism and that a "power grab" is taking place.

As David Frum said:

"If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."

You lost and now you've rejected democracy... otherwise you would dust yourself off, admit you lost and focus on policy instead of this hyperbolic rhetoric where you've gone completely off the rails:

"Yeah, those right-wingers are sub-human. Let's kill 'em all.

Artie, it's dangerous to start thinking of your fellow human beings as "deplorables." That kind of thinking leads to things like gulags and the Holocaust."

The so-called deplorables I am talking about are the white supremacists and neo-nazis that invaded the Capitol and who are the ones actually interested in things like genocide and killing their political opponents.

You know... the same types of individuals the president said were "good people" several years ago and just said that he "loved" and that they were "special".

Calling white supremacists and neo-nazis deplorable isn't some slippery slope toward the Holocaust... in fact that is how we avoid things like the Holocaust.

You're brain seems to have melted that you have massive objections to referring to such individuals as deplorable.

Deplorable just means those folks are deserving of condemnation... why do you object to condemning white supremacy Conan?

Orion, what do you know of the "reality" of a country in which you've never set foot?

You use that word a lot, as if it were a talisman, but is it not. It rather affirms the specifically Chinese temperament of your desperation to blend in… As do all your language choices.

You're living indoors in a wheelchair… It's the only explanation. You're just too eager to feign wizened certainly about mundane untruths. These bitter postures mean too much to you, and you're too clumsy.

Attempting to steal an election from a legitimately elected President is “stopping the steal.”

It’s 1984, just 37 years later.

When Republicans held the presidency and both houses of Congress back in 2016 I don't recall you using any rhetoric about a "power grab" or insisting that one party rule was indicative of an authoritarian government. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 5:22 PM

You really don't read for comprehension, do you, Artie?

One party capturing both houses of Congress and the presidency through the electoral process is not a "power grab." One party unseating members of the other party on a pretext is a "power grab."

==========

Deplorable just means those folks are deserving of condemnation... why do you object to condemning white supremacy Conan? ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 5:22 PM

Deplorable the way Hillary used it goes well beyond "folks deserving of condemnation," Artie.

And who's to determine which folks are "deserving of condemnation?"

You toss terms like "condemnation" and "deplorable" pretty lightly, Artie. Almost like you approve of state-sanctioned discrimination against those found "not worthy."

Individual freedom, Artie, the kind enshrined in our Constitution - you know, the one you claim to care so deeply about - means people are free to be "deplorables" and the government is prohibited from doing anything about it.

I don't object to condemning white supremacy, Artie. I just don't happen to believe objective truth, the scientific method, respect for law and order, and meritocracy constitute white supremacy - like the Smithsonian, BLM, and apparently you do.

”The doctrine of blind obedience and unqualified submission to any human power, whether civil or ecclesiastical, is the doctrine of despotism, and ought to have no place among Republicans and Christians." ~ Angelina Grimke (posted by Conan)

“I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters.” ~ Donald Trump, January 2016

JD,

Glad to see you are here... as always you are an island of sanity within a sea of lunacy on this blog :)

Conan Says:

"One party capturing both houses of Congress and the presidency through the electoral process is not a "power grab." One party unseating members of the other party on a pretext is a "power grab.""

The constitution makes provision for this Conan:

"Each House may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member."

I would certainly be against members of Congress seeking to unseat anyone for frivolous reasons.

There is a very reasonable case to be made that members of Congress that incite a seditious mob (or riotous mob... or a mob on a "lark"... or whatever euphemistic language you insist on using to describe people breaking into the Capitol while chanting they wanted to murder the VP) have no business being part of that deliberative body.

Similarly, there is a very reasonable case to be made that members of Congress who voted to object to their own election that presumably put them into Congress in the first place should be unseated.

How can such individuals faithfully execute their role in government if they don't even believe their own election was legitimate?

This isn't about a power grab Conan... it is about having members of Congress that take their oath to the Constitution seriously.

Conan Says:

"Deplorable the way Hillary used it goes well beyond "folks deserving of condemnation," Artie."

Not really Conan... I just listened to the quote the other day... it was oddly prescient.

I'm not even a fan of Hillary Clinton... but she recognized the following very early on:

Not every Trump supporter is a white supremacist... but every white supremacist is a Trump supporter.

She was clearly talking about the white supremacist types as the deplorables in her speech... she expressed sympathy for the other group of conservatives.

She didn't actually lump you all into one group.

Give it a listen and hear for yourself.

"You toss terms like "condemnation" and "deplorable" pretty lightly, Artie. Almost like you approve of state-sanctioned discrimination against those found "not worthy.""

I'm talking about the white supremacists who breached the Capitol building, ransacked it, wiped feces on the walls, caused the entire Congress to have to go into protected locations... all in an effort to interrupt a constitutional process to they could overthrow the presidential election.

If that isn't worthy of condemnation... if those people are not deplorable... if that is someone tossing around the term "pretty lightly"... then you are out of your fucking mind.

> you are out of your fucking mind.

What are politics like in your country? Are your government figures out of their minds?

Crid,

The politics in my country are a bit divisive at the moment... right wing extremists just stormed the Capitol building the other day.

What are the politics like on your planet?

No way the United States is your country. No.

Crid,

I imagine your mental state is much like that of Donald Trump... when he doesn't like reality he also seeks to reject it on the basis of his delusions.

That idiot still doesn't think he lost the election... it just doesn't compute... it is beyond his ability to comprehend.

You are similarly stupid... just less famous or accomplished.

You're not from here. You're lobbing weak insults from Mom's apartment in some hellhole you're too ashamed to describe. You've given no evidence of life experience of any kind, certainly not reading.

I was sorry to hear about Conan's Beamer, but of course, he has other options for the repair interval.

Have you ever driven a car of any kind?

Islamist terrorists: “We’re planning on doing what we failed to do in 2001: hijack a plane and crash it into the U.S. Capitol.”

Trump supporters (who believe the election was stolen): “How can we help?”

Artemis, they certainly both have narcissism in common.

I was sorry to hear about Conan's Beamer, but of course, he has other options for the repair interval. ~ Crid at January 10, 2021 6:10 AM

Thanks. I survived, but after the fuel pump went, I had to consider the repair costs of keeping the car running after 124,000 miles vs. the costs of buying a new car. I opted to get a Jeep as a more practical vehicle. It's not as much fun on the road, however. The Bimmer could do 120 without a shimmy, whereas the Jeep quails at 85.

When I had the BMW, I found a small repair shop that specialized in German cars to do the work on it. Still not cheap, but better than the dealer. The guy who owned it was Argentinian who spoke English with a Spanish and German accent. Almost everything he said was completely indecipherable, but he did good work.

==========

...you are out of your fucking mind. ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 7:23 PM

You've been using that phrase quite a bit lately. Did you just hear it? Did someone use it on you and you found it particularly stinging, so you thought you'd use it on people here?

==========

JD, Glad to see you are here.... ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 7:08 PM

We're all glad to see you, JD. You always seem to appear just as Artie is foundering.

==========

The so-called deplorables I am talking about are the white supremacists and neo-nazis.... ~ Artemis at January 9, 2021 5:22 PM

Funny how you bring up white supremacy mere hours after Nancy Pelosi publicly accused the Capitol invaders of choosing "their whiteness over democracy."

Have you ever had an original thought? Did it die of loneliness?

Have you ever had a thought about politics that did not originate in a Democratic Party talking points memo?

> You always seem to appear just
> as Artie is foundering.

Ah. Thanks.

Orion showers me with the bitterest insults a shallow heart can hold; I point out that Orion is not from America; the cycle begins anew.

Orion! Ever drive a car?

“We're all glad to see you, JD. You always seem to appear just as Artie is foundering.”

Oh my, Conan, what do you think that means?

Good comment by Ross Douthat in the NYT:

This was not a coup by any traditional definition of the term (as authors of books on coups quickly took to Twitter to explain), nor was it the kind of Bill Barr-abetted, Supreme Court-stamped use of constitutional trickery that liberals feared.

But it was still something more than just a riot. And not merely because of where and with what encouragement it happened, but because it extended from an immersive narrative that made many of its participants fervently believe that they were actors in a world-historical drama, saviors or re-founders of the American Republic.

One thing that has really surprised me was that there were no attempts on Obama’s life by extremist right wing nut cases seething with hatred for him, and also no attempts on Trump’s life by extremist left-wing nut cases seething with hatred for him.

That’s not to say, of course, that there weren’t credible plots by right or left extremists. Perhaps there were and they were just foiled in time, without any mention being made of it.

However in light of this constant narrative being pushed by Trump and other Republican politicians, and believed by many of his supporters, that the election was “stolen” by the Democrats, along with the recent storming of the Capitol building, and along with what is sure to be constant drum-beating by Trump during the coming four years that the election was stolen from himi and his “real” Americans, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if some angry right wing extremist attempts to assassinate Biden.

And if that were to happen, especially if Biden were to be killed, then I think all hell could really break loose.

And if that were to happen, especially if Biden were to be killed, then I think all hell could really break loose.

JD at January 10, 2021 9:35 AM

Biden is the best advertisement for Democratic criminality the Republicans have right now. I want him there for four long years, drooling and spouting nonsense at every press conference. I predict there won’t be very many of them.

The only people trying to “do him in” are the Bernie Bros, Antifa, and BLM.

A surfeit of colorful, opinionated new personalities.

Do they know how to drive?

The only people trying to “do him in” are the Bernie Bros, Antifa, and BLM.

They’re certainly not members of the Joe Biden Fan Club but they’re not outraged delusional Magats who feel that Trump had the election “stolen” from him.

If (or when) someone tries to assassinate Biden, it will be a Magat, not an extremist lefty (although I couldn’t completely rule that out.)

One thing that has really surprised me was that there were no attempts on Obama’s life by extremist right wing nut cases seething with hatred for him, and also no attempts on Trump’s life by extremist left-wing nut cases seething with hatred for him.

To be honest, I feared assassination attempts on Obama and Trump, too, and am glad there was not one. We live in stupid times.

Something to keep in mind in light of the current unrest and animosity is that if Trump is impeached (now or later) and loses his Secret Service protection, some nut case may just succeed in assassinating him in the name of "social justice." Whatever we may think of Trump personally, we do not want to make former presidents open targets.

However in light of this constant narrative being pushed by Trump and other Republican politicians....

That rhetoric needs to be toned down and the "stolen election" narrative quieted. While there were demonstrable irregularities in this election process, their presence does not mean by default that the election was in any way rigged or "stolen." Trump took it too far when he insisted, well after the electoral college elected Biden that the results should be overturned, that they even could be overturned.

Although he did not directly encourage the storming of the Capitol, he does bear some blame for not trying to calm the crowd.

The Democrats could go far in taming the raw emotions by agreeing to an independent audit of the election results to ascertain that Biden did, in fact, win the election, that any irregularities were just the result of the normal human error. Going forward, establishing security procedures, not unlike the chain of evidence rules in court cases, would go far in helping assure voters that the system is secure and honest.

Both parties would have to agree beforehand that even if the results of such an audit showed miscount in favor of Biden, that no attempt would be made to invalidate the certified election results and that Biden is, and remains, the legitimate president. The audit would be done solely ensure that the integrity of the system is intact and determine what, if any, measures need to be taken to ensure that it remains so.

We are rapidly approaching a point at which large swaths of the population believe our system is rigged in favor of people not like them - whether it's "election fraud" or "systemic racism."

Both parties need to take measures to assure the public that we remain a democracy with a government answerable to the governed, all of the governed. Both parties also need to take steps to quiet their own radical politicians who stir the party's more fanatical base to violence and hatred.

The Democrats could go far in taming the raw emotions by agreeing to an independent audit of the election results to ascertain that Biden did, in fact, win the election, that any irregularities were just the result of the normal human error.

Conan, even if that were to happen, do you honestly think it would cause Trump to cease braying that the election was “stolen” from him, or cause his cult to stop believing it?

Conan Says:

"You've been using that phrase quite a bit lately. Did you just hear it?"

I tell people they are out of their mind when they have really gone completely off the rails.

You've always been a bit out there Conan... but the extent of your sophistry has never been greater.

You called people involved in the BLM protests a "cancer"... but take great umbrage at the declaration that white supremacists who breached the Capitol building and threatened the very seat of our government might be referred to as deplorable.

That kind of thinking makes you a crazy person.

Were you breastfed?

You called people involved in the BLM protests a "cancer"... but take great umbrage at the declaration that white supremacists who breached the Capitol building and threatened the very seat of our government might be referred to as deplorable. ~ Artemis at January 10, 2021 11:59 AM

I called BLM and its advocacy of Marxism a cancer. Marxist political philosophy is a cancer on a society, any society. I did not call the protestors a cancer upon society.

And I take umbrage at the declaration that human beings are "deplorable" simply because they disagree with your political thought.

When Hillary referred to "half of Trump supporters" as belonging in a "basket of deplorables," she was not referring to people who stormed the Capitol as that had not happened then. She was referring to people she arbitrarily categorized as "racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and Islamaphobic." She smeared people who opposed open immigration, opposed gay marriage, opposed opening women's and girls' private spaces to people who claim to be transgendered without any security, and people who did not buy the "America is racist" claims of the Left. Her sneering denigration was not limited to the people who were, in four years' time, going to storm the Capitol.

The act of storming the Capitol was, in fact, deplorable and has been deplored by many on both sides of the political divide, including me.

Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment showed her utter contempt for people who disagreed with her proposed policies. It was a dumb comment and probably cost her the election.

==========

Conan, even if that were to happen, do you honestly think it would cause Trump to cease braying that the election was “stolen” from him, or cause his cult to stop believing it? ~ JD at January 10, 2021 11:49 AM

Who cares?

Once you've shown that the election wasn't stolen or fixed the ways in which it could have been, the steam goes out of the "stolen" argument. Right now, it has steam because the demonstrated irregularities are enough to show people on the fence that something happened and is not being addressed.

Polls have shown that 50-60% of all voters, including between 17% and 30% of Democrat voters, believe the election was rigged in some way in favor of Biden. Those numbers are not indicators of a healthy democracy.

Investigate the irregularities and fix any glitches in the system an investigation uncovers and watch the number of voters with doubts decrease - in both parties.

At that point Trump can bray all he wants. It will just expose him as a sore loser. Even some diehard supporter will see him for what he is. However, right now, with those irregularities not investigated and those doubts not assuaged, Trump's claims are defensible - his claims, not his behavior.

"In a democracy, allegations of election fraud must always be taken seriously, because the foundations and legitimacy of that form of government depend upon transparent and accurate vote counts.  Debunking election fraud claims is important, no matter how amusing or irrational some people may find those claims." ~ D. Lewis

Once you've shown that the election wasn't stolen or fixed the ways in which it could have been, the steam goes out of the "stolen" argument.

I beg to differ. “Showing” that the election wasn’t stolen is not going to convince Trump that it wasn’t — for the simple fact that he is fundamentally incapable of accepting being a “loser” — so, therefore, his cult will continue to believe him over the “fake facts” put out by a “fake independent” commission.

Your idea is worth a try. I just don’t believe it would change the mind of most Magats and it certainly is not going to stop Trump from continuing to bray and bleat.

Conan Says:

"I called BLM and its advocacy of Marxism a cancer. Marxist political philosophy is a cancer on a society, any society. I did not call the protestors a cancer upon society."

Wrong again Conan... or lying again... take your pick.

This was the conversation we were having:

"If the BLM folks want to prioritize police brutality over community violence that is a judgment call for them to make." - Artemis at August 3, 2020 6:40 PM

Here was your response:

"BLM is not trying to cure breast cancer. It is the cancer. The BLM folks are the ones stirring up anger and violence." - Conan the Grammarian at August 3, 2020 8:32 PM

You weren't talking about philosophy or advocacy.

You were talking about the people... the "BLM folks".

That was in direct response to me talking about the "BLM folks".

You called the people a cancer Conan.

Abersouth: “Conan, I don’t understand the assertion of negligence concerning guardians of the integrity of our election system.”

Conan’s assertions are equivalent to facts. Trump was a fool for not hiring Conan to represent him. Even though he’s not an attorney, Conan would have succeeded in proving widespread election fraud where Trump’s attorneys failed and failed and failed and failed.

Conan Says:

"Once you've shown that the election wasn't stolen or fixed the ways in which it could have been, the steam goes out of the "stolen" argument. Right now, it has steam because the demonstrated irregularities are enough to show people on the fence that something happened and is not being addressed."

Nonsense.

There have already been 60 court cases tossing the arguments out.

The term "irregularity" has already been misconstrued to mean "fraud" when it doesn't mean that.

There have been recounts and court cases.

This matter has been settled.

There is no appeasing conspiracy theorists.

JD,

Conan's argument is that people who believe propaganda from a sore loser will be convinced by an independent audit.

These are the same people who were told by Trump that Pence could unilaterally overturn the election results and when Pence said he could not do that they stormed the Capitol chanting that they wanted to hang the VP.

Conan isn't interested in an audit to tamp down those people.

All an audit can do is add false legitimacy to bogus claims.

We don't investigate conspiracy theories to calm down conspiracy theorists.

They have their conclusions already and will never abandon them regardless of evidence.

Artemis: “If the BLM folks want to prioritize police brutality over community violence that is a judgment call for them to make.“

Sure it’s a judgment call for them to make but, from what I’ve read, it appears to be an extremely poor judgment call, one based on emotion rather than reason.

Murders of innocent black people in communities all around the U.S. appear to have the increased substantially over previous years. I don’t know how if this is due to violent thugs being emboldened by attacks on police and/or police performing their jobs less aggressively, but IF there is a link, then BLM and their allies are actually responsible, indirectly, for an increase in the the loss of innocent black lives.

JD,

Also... let's be completely realistic here.

The folks on the political right who ardently believe that this election was "stolen" are the same folks who ardently believe that Obama was born in Africa and hence not eligible to be President.

No amount of evidence was able to convince these people that Obama was eligible to be elected... many also still believe that he is of the Islamic faith.

There is no evidence to support any of this nonsense and yet they believe it anyway.

Who pushed for much of this propaganda?... None other than Donald Trump.

He was heavily involved in birther conspiracy nonsense and kept claiming to have "proof" that Obama wasn't born in the US (his "evidence" never managed to materialize)... he also accused Obama of founding ISIS.

Trump's sycophantic base still believes all of this idiocy.

And yet Conan insists that if only we had an independent audit Trumps supporters would see the light.

Unfortunately they cannot see the light when they have no eyes.

JD,

My point in the previous conversation with Conan was simply that we all get to make our own prioritization decisions for political issues.

BLM can select to prioritize for police brutality and you can believe that really isn't the best prioritization.

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

Conan's response was that the people involved in BLM were themselves a cancer.

Now he has his panties in a bunch because I called a bunch of Trump supporting neo-Nazi's who broke into the Capitol building deplorable.

These are the same people who were told by Trump that Pence could unilaterally overturn the election results and when Pence said he could not do that they stormed the Capitol chanting that they wanted to hang the VP.

Yep. Once you’ve got your mind made up about something, and your outrage has been stoked over and over again, facts that run contrary to your belief are “facts.”

Conan,

Incidentally... if you remember you once asked me what Republican I might have ever voted for and I told you without reservation that I really liked Colin Powell:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/01/10/exp-gps-0110-powell-on-capitol-attack.cnn

Here he is saying he cannot be a Republican anymore after what the GOP has devolved into.

The reason I liked and continue to like Colin Powell is because he was and is a man of great integrity and principle.

You constantly want to pretend that I am in some sense at a political extreme... but I'm not and never have been.

The issue at hand is that the current incarnation of the Republican party is so wildly insane that no person of principle or integrity can really support what they have become.

Colin Powell knows it... and I know it.

Your constant defense of their nonsense regardless of how ridiculous they act is why I properly identified you as a deeply partisan hack.

For you this is all about perception and the fact that you put party over country.

People like Colin Powell know better... I suppose for you he is now just a RINO... maybe even a leftist.

It’s my understanding that it’s typical for the party that doesn’t hold the White House to pick up Congressional seats in an off year. I know that Americans tend to have short memories but I wonder if the Trumpist assault on the Capitol, along with the actions of the group of Republicans in Congress, may still resonate with voters by the time November 2022 rolls around.

Trump, at the pre-Capitol attack rally:

“You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. …

“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

“We can’t let that happen.”

In other words , Biden must be prevented from becoming President by any means necessary. There really is no other way to interpret that.

JD,

There is no other way to interpret it if you are being honest and not desperately trying to spin things to achieve a political agenda.

Dishonest folks will twist themselves into knots to ignore and discount all of that stuff and focus entirely on his quote to "go home" he made hours later after they were already breaching to building a beating an officer to death.

They will also ignore how he told them he loved them and that they were very special.

It’s too bad the Magats didn’t actually get Pence and attempt to hang him (while failing to succeed.) Perhaps that will would have convinced many more Republicans of the depravity of Trump and his Magats.

I hope I’m wrong but I think there will be more Magat-instigated violence during Biden’s inauguration. After all, der Magat Führer says, “we can’t let that happen.”

Also from Trump’s pre-Capitol attack rally:

“Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we're going to walk down and I'll be there with you. We're going to walk down--

We're going to walk down. Anyone you want, but I think right here, we're going to walk down to the Capitol--“

“I’ll be there with you.” “We’re going to walk down...”

Then he slithers back to the safety of the White House and watches the violence on TV.

JD,

I am extremely glad that they didn't get their hands on Pence or anyone else.

I saw the video earlier today of what they did to that poor Capitol police officer... the mob dragged him out and indeed beat him to death.

Yes he succumbed to his injuries later... but if not but for the actions of those seditious traitors that man would still be alive.

They didn't carelessly toss something into a crowd and accidentally cause his death... they beat him to death as a group.

If that alone isn't enough to shake these folks awake then they are beyond help.

Conan keeps talking about evidence convincing people... but that isn't really what is going... he knows they are in a cult.

People who storm the Capitol and beat an officer to death at the behest of a president who tells them that the incoming administration is "illegitimate"... and that they "can't let that happen"... and Conan calls it a bunch of people on a lark.

You know... just a zany adventure where you beat someone to death...

Oh my, Conan, what do you think that means? ~ JD at January 10, 2021 8:45 AM

It means exactly what it says, JD.

==========

You called the people a cancer Conan. ~ Artemis at January 10, 2021 1:38 PM

Learn to read, Artie. My exact words, as you showed, were "It is the cancer." BLM is not the cure for what is ailing society right now, far from it. The folks running BLM are, in fact, stirring up anger and violence in the name of their cause, but I condemned their cause, not them.

Socialism is a cancer on free societies. It promises utopia and equality, but delivers misery and poverty. Collectivism, in whatever form it takes, is a cancer to individual freedom. BLM is a socialist organization, by its own words taken directly from its Web site.

==========

I suppose for you he is now just a RINO... maybe even a leftist. ~ Artemis at January 10, 2021 3:00 PM

Artie, I have never used the term RINO and never will.

If Powell wants to leave the Republican Party, that's up to him. I'll neither admire him nor condemn him for that decision. Party affiliation means next to nothing in my decision to approve or disapprove of someone.

Personally, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, being registered as Unaffiliated. I'm not with either party, preferring to think for myself. You should try that sometime, Artie. It'll be scary at first, but with a little practice you'll get the hang of it.

I am extremely glad that they didn't get their hands on Pence or anyone else.

Well, yes, me too because i’m afraid that, in their Trump-inspired frenzied outrage, they would’ve followed through and actually killed him.

I was just saying an ideal scenario, to me, would have been an attempted hanging, with it ultimately being stopped.

...and Conan calls it a bunch of people on a lark. ~ Artemis at January 10, 2021 6:24 PM

Lying and misquoting again, eh, Artie. I'm not surprised. After all, it's what you do.

"Lark" is what I speculated the guy thought he was on when this began. That someone ended up dead is a tragedy and an example of what can happen when you lose yourself to someone else's anger.

I also said the person should be charged with "the appropriate degree of murder." You conveniently left that part out.

Conan, the name of an MLB team was inspired by you: the Dodgers.

Perfect political cartoon:

Pence, on his knees, with his nose buried in Trump’s ass, while Trump is handing a noose with “Pence” on it to a Magat standing nearby.

Conan Says:

"If Powell wants to leave the Republican Party, that's up to him. I'll neither admire him nor condemn him for that decision. Party affiliation means next to nothing in my decision to approve or disapprove of someone.

Personally, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, being registered as Unaffiliated. I'm not with either party, preferring to think for myself. You should try that sometime, Artie. It'll be scary at first, but with a little practice you'll get the hang of it."

Conan... the only one eye balls deep in partisanship and ideological loyalty is you.

I'm not registered with a particular party myself... so apparently I jump over your silly bar without issues.

The fact that my position is well aligned with people of integrity from the conservative side of the aisle should easily demonstrate that my position is not extreme here.

Your position is well aligned with the partisan nut jobs of the earth like Tucker Carlson... and other right wing loons.

By the way... you should listen to Arnold Schwarzenegger's recent speech on all of this.

Since you've chosen your name based on a character he played maybe you should reconsider your moniker out of respect for the man.

Conan Says:

""Lark" is what I speculated the guy thought he was on when this began."

Yes... I understand what you were saying Conan... it just doesn't make any rational sense:

https://grammarist.com/phrase/on-a-lark/#:~:text=On%20a%20lark%20describes%20something,to%20mean%20frolicking%20or%20playing.

"On a lark describes something that is done on the spur of the moment, something that is done spontaneously and for fun. Something done on a lark has not been planned, but may be considered irresponsible in a fun way and childlike."

What you are saying is that these folks just appeared in DC "spur of the moment"... they just marched on the Capitol "spontaneously and for fun" while chanting they wanted to hang the VP... then they dragged an officer of the law out and beat him to death in a "fun" and "childlike" fashion?

When you use terms like "on a lark" what you are doing is placing space between the people murdering someone and any real responsibility they might have.

You are downplaying the severity of their actions.

You never once referred to any members of a BLM protest as being out "on a lark"... that movement after all is something you regard as a "cancer"... you know... a disease... something to be excised... gotten rid of.

These folks aren't even worthy of condemnation... after all you don't like calling them deplorable... that is a bridge too far.

What you want to argue is that these are just a bunch of decent folks who got carried away and accidentally murdered someone in the spur of the moment... but everything people on the left do is in some sense premeditated and nefarious.

I'm sorry to tell you Conan... but the folks who descended on the Capitol showed up with weapons, they planted bombs... they said they intended to try and overthrow the election and said they wanted to hang the VP.

Additionally there are reports these types of folks have been saying they are going back for more violence.

These folks weren't "on a lark".

These folks are worthy of strong condemnation... that means they are deplorable.

To say they are not deplorable means you don't think they are worthy of condemnation.

It is amazing how all of a sudden you are all about hating the sin but loving the sinner when we are talking about right-wing terrorists.

On December 1st, Gabriel Sterling saw the future:

ATLANTA — In one of the most striking rebukes to President Trump since he launched his baseless attacks on the American electoral process, a top-ranking Georgia election official lashed out at the president on Tuesday for failing to condemn threats of violence against people overseeing the voting system in his state.

“It has to stop,” Gabriel Sterling, a Republican and Georgia’s voting system implementation manager, said at an afternoon news conference at the state Capitol, his voice shaking with emotion. “Mr. President, you have not condemned these actions or this language.”

He added: “This is elections. This is the backbone of democracy, and all of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. It’s too much.”

“Mr. President, it looks like you likely lost the state of Georgia,” Mr. Sterling said. He added that the president needed to “step up” and say, “Stop inspiring people to commit potential acts of violence. Someone is going to get hurt, someone is going to get shot, someone is going to get killed. And it’s not right.”

JD,

Thank you for that quote... this didn't start in DC.

These types of folks also plotted to kidnap and murder the Governor of Michigan.

These are not people out "on a lark" all over the country and going on for months.

These same types of people also threatened the lives of the Georgia Secretary of State and his family.

But according to Conan its just a bunch of kids who got a little out of control...

JD,

I'll also speculate on what is really bothering Conan.

This event represents a PR nightmare for conservative causes he supports.

He is deeply concerned about the perception here, not about the reality of right-wing extremist violence or the fact that these people likely intended to kill members of Congress.

Conan is concerned that the political left might use this event as an excuse for a "power grab".

That is what he is concerned about.

Now about justice or that certain political figures were involved in inciting this violence and have been spreading propaganda.

Conan just wants to "ask questions"... and not impugn the character of those "very fine people"... they just got carried away apparently... no big deal.

Artemis, 60 Minutes tonight had interviews with both Sterling and Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia Secretary of State (and, like Sperling, a Republican.) Both of them unequivocally stated there was no evidence of fraud in Georgia’s presidential election. Unlike Trump and his many sycophants in Congress, these are conservative officials with ethics and integrity.

They played excerpts of the phone call Trump placed to Raffensperger where Trump was requesting/whining that Raffensperger “find” 11,000 votes for him:

“So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.”

Sperling also explained exactly happened in the video that got Magats all hot and bothered, where election workers were pulling “suitcases of ballots” out from under tables. I remember that someone here posted a link to that video excerpt along with the assertion that it was evidence of fraud. Sperling said that Rudy Giuliani had access to the entire video and clearly knew exactly what was going on but he chose to lie and flagrantly misrepresent it.

Conan: Personally, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, being registered as Unaffiliated. I'm not with either party, preferring to think for myself. You should try that sometime, Artie. It'll be scary at first, but with a little practice you'll get the hang of it.

Yes, Artemis, you really should think for yourself because, if you think for yourself, you’ll agree with Conan. The only reason you disagree with Conan is because you’re not thinking for yourself.

JD,

Everything you say is spot on.

Just as Hawley and Cruz chose to flagrantly misrepresent things in their political posturing to object during the electoral vote count.

None of this was done in a legitimate or honest fashion.

~60 court cases considered all of the Trump campaigns frivolous arguments... they rejected everything on the basis of the facts set before them (or the lack of evidence in many situations) and the applicable law.

Please keep in mind that Hawley has a degree from Yale law school... and Cruz has a degree from Harvard law school. These are not actually stupid people.

They know how to read and understand court opinions.

So when they stood up to object to the Pennsylvania electoral votes they knew... they knew... they knew that they were misrepresenting the facts to stoke the anger of Trump supporters who are ignorant of the finer points of the law.

They argued that changes were made to how the voting would be performed in a manner that wasn't consistent with the Pennsylvania constitution... therefore each and every citizen of that should in their opinion deserved to be disenfranchised.

This is what Conan and others are really talking about by so-called voting "irregularities"... note that what they are talking about is not fraud... it is not nefarious actions taken by any of the citizens who would have their vote stripped away from them by refusing to count the electoral college votes from their state.

Now here is the finer legal point that the courts considered and decided upon when it came to this case... the issue was that the Trump campaign failed to act in a timely manner in terms of raising their objection. This is known as the doctrine of laches:

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1097

"the legal doctrine that a legal right or claim will not be enforced or allowed if a long delay in asserting the right or claim has prejudiced the adverse party (hurt the opponent) as a sort of "legal ambush.""

In other words... by waiting until AFTER the election was already complete to raise an objection... and only objecting once the Trump campaign realized that they lost the state... only then did they try and disenfranchise each and every voter in the state.

No court would find in favor of such a complaint... the courts correctly rejected that complaint.

The appropriate time for either campaign to object was well before the election took place.

Hawley and Cruz know and understand how the doctrine of laches works... they know and understand that the courts operated appropriately and came down with a reasonable and lawful decision.

Despite this they objected anyway and chose to fan the flames of an angry Trump base so they could try and reap political rewards.

What on earth would an "independent audit" discover when it comes to something like this?

Conan either doesn't understand what the courts decisions mean and hence he is completely ignorant when he demands further investigation... or he does know that the courts made perfectly reasonable legal judgments and he wants to set up additional investigations as part of some PR war that he seems constantly engaged in.

He said it before and he means it:

"Politics is perception Artie, not facts and not logic. And Trump excels at things that require more perception than logic. He's a salesman and he's in his element right now.

Politics is a nudist camp, Artie. The emperor doesn't need clothes." - Conan the Grammarian at March 25, 2020 9:47 AM

He is not interested in facts or logic... just perception.

He is not interested in facts or logic... just perception. ~ Artemis at January 10, 2021 9:34 PM

Politics is perception, Artie. Governance is not. That's why some people make good candidates, but weak office-holders.

On the other hand, some people make poor candidates, but solid office-holders - e.g, Joe Lieberman.

That you cannot understand the difference says a great deal about you, and none of it good.

So, I'll watch patiently while you and JD cheer wildly as dangerous precedents are set by a vengeance-minded Democratic party and then whine years later when those precedents are turned back on the party, a la Harry Reid and the filibuster.

> That you cannot understand
> the difference

Pretty sure Orion literally cannot: People don't run for office in Orion's country, not in the American style.

Conan Says:

"Politics is perception, Artie. Governance is not. That's why some people make good candidates, but weak office-holders."

We were talking about how to properly govern during the initial stages of the pandemic and how Trump was busying lying to everyone about the severity of what was going on.

You insisted that facts and logic weren't an important part of the discussion and that Trump was in his element telling people that the pandemic would just go away by the spring and that there were just 15 cases and it would miraculously go down to zero.

This isn't any different than when Trump lies nonstop telling everyone he won an election he lost and that they should just wait for the court cases... that there is "massive fraud"... that there were "vote dumps"... that Biden is an "illegitimate" president.

It is all the same routine of him lying constantly to his supporters and them eating it up without a moment of critical thought.

His supporters still do not believe in using masks or following social distancing guidelines despite the death toll topping 380,000 at this point. They don't even believe that those death toll numbers are real.

And yet you are sitting here and insisting if we just start a comprehensive audit to address his nonsense claims about the election that his base will listen to reason.

You know this isn't true.

This is just out of the conservative playbook to obstruct while Democrats are in office.

You are full of it... everyone is onto this dumb strategy... and no one of intelligence or quality has any patience for these games anymore.

There is a lot to get done in this country and you are being disingenuous in your arguments as usual.

Let's not forget that the Mueller Report came out and section 1 detailed evidence of interference from the Russian government in the 2016 election... and Trump dismissed the whole thing as "fake news" and as a "hoax" and his supporters reject the entire report as made up... or in the most extreme they insist that it found no interference at all (which is of course nonsense and anyone who has actually ready section 1 knows this is completely wrong).

Your comment about perception was about how Trump's base didn't respond to facts or logic... but they did respond to "perception", which Trump was something you insisted Trump excelled at crafting through the repetition of nonstop bullshit and lies.

You don't get to now say how facts and logic will persuade these folks.

Again... they still don't wear masks.

They don't live in reality Conan... you know that... that is why you focused on "perception" nearly a year ago.

Conan Says:

"So, I'll watch patiently while you and JD cheer wildly as dangerous precedents are set by a vengeance-minded Democratic party and then whine years later when those precedents are turned back on the party, a la Harry Reid and the filibuster."

This threat went out the window when the Republicans set a precedent that you apparently cannot fill a vacant Supreme Court seat during the last year of a presidential term because you needed to let the voters decide... only to then fill a vacant Supreme Court seat weeks before the the 2020 presidential election.

There is no good faith or principled operation to be found in the current incarnation of the Republican party.

40 years ago things were different.

Democrats would be stupid to presume that any thing they do would constrain the actions of these folks to principle.

They stated plans to obstruct pretty much all of Biden's cabinet picks until they lost the Senate majority.

Now I wouldn't put it past the Democrats to be weak and foolish because that's often what they do... but if they had any brains at all they would insist in codifying into law any precedents that Republicans insisted they needed to keep and place felony charges associated with breaching those precedents.

When the Republicans are unwilling to pass said legislation they can then respond by telling them that they clearly weren't serious about honoring those precedents anyway... and then they can proceed.

Hoping these folks will act on good faith and honoring tradition is a lost cause.

Artemis at January 11, 2021 11:29 AM and Artemis at January 11, 2021 11:59 AM

727 words in all.

Do you have nothing else to do but research old conversations and nitpick old comments.

Dude, I'm unemployed right now and I don't spend all day on Amy's blog. I don't make notes on what you said today or yesterday so I can throw those comments in your face later.

Seriously, dude. Get a life.

Conan Says:

"Do you have nothing else to do but research old conversations and nitpick old comments."

This isn't difficult for me Conan... I don't have to research anything... I remember these things.

The real question is why you constantly lie about everything and then when you are caught with your pants down you imply there is something wrong with the person who called you out on your lies.

No one is taking notes... I'm just a lot smarter than you are.

Weird way to spend your precious brains.

I guess the United States is just that much more important to you than whatever country you live in.

Crid,

I love how what your argument really boils down to is that you don't believe intelligent people wouldn't waste their time talking to the likes of you or Conan.

Please consider my efforts to be educational outreach.

Too silly

Whatever you say muffin... you're the one who described the violent seditious mob that descended on the Capitol in the following way:

"This was a bunch of lonely losers putting on fun costumes to pretend to take command of something." - Crid at January 6, 2021 7:34 PM

These folks beat a police officer to death... and to you they are just a bunch of lonely losers putting on costumes.

Gotta be Chinese… No other culture could regard such nakedly infantile misrepresentation as a devastating retort.

Either that or you're institutionalized in a wheelchair and have never spent time with adults anyway.

But maybe both.

Crid,

You described a right-wing extremist mob in terms no different than on might describe a bunch of nerdy folks at a comic convention.

That's something you need to own.

It certainly doesn't suggest you are a serious thinker.

You silly little fartlette, you wouldn't know "sedition" if it bit your little-girly balls. You're country has a President-For-Life.... You don't even know what the word means.

Your writing is so hackneyed and gassy… It's obvious you're just picking fights for an ESL classroom project.

Good luck. Blow your teacher for extra credit.

Crid,

As usual you have no idea what you are talking about.

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/nation-world/sedition-charge-possible-pro-trump-riot-dc-federal-prosecutor/507-44ec753b-1e59-4cd1-978f-18d48eb5d008

"The top federal prosecutor for the District of Columbia said Thursday that “all options are on the table” for charging members of the violent pro-President Donald Trump mob that stormed the U.S. Capitol — including sedition charges."

Sedition is a perfectly reasonable term to describe the events.

Or do federal prosecutors not understand the law either?

Of course you do. Swallow his goo, Orion!

But be sure to "participate in the US tax system" first.

Crid,

Of course... why should anyone consider the legal position of a professional prosecutor when instead they can listed to a random moron like you on the internet.

I suppose you have now concluded that the top federal prosecutor in DC isn't a citizen anymore and lives in China.

I mean, I'm a live and let live kind of guy…

You don't need to defend your inane word choices to me… It's that ESL teacher who has to be impressed. He's wearing very attractive cologne today, isn't he? You should get down to brass tacks with the "existing authority."

Crid,

You are just upset because you saw some dude in a goofy hat and jumped the gun in your description of the events... now it is clear that those folks showed up with intent to harm/murder government officials and you can't bring yourself to admit that you got things wrong.

Only an idiot like you would think you know more than a career prosecutor.

I am perfectly comfortable using descriptive language in line with legal professionals.

Artemis, ever notice how the narcissist is the person on this blog who engages in the most ad hominen attacks?

JD,

Of course... he is utterly incapable of holding a rational conversation with anyone who he doesn't see as a staunch ally in him attacking other people.

I lost patience with him a LONG time ago.

He is even on the record that his aggression is "naked"... and that people not in the know might see me as a victim of his attacks because I was civil.

Now he bitches and moans that I'm not civil enough with him.

I tried the civil communication approach... now I just make fun of him.

In my experience, there is at least one person like him on almost every message board/blog, a person with a highly-inflated sense of self who basically camps out in the space and posts far more than anybody else. I’ve seen some that don’t engage in ad hominem attacks — or at least not that many — but most do.

You're just upset because it's not your country.

That's gotta be tough.

The rest of your life is going to be rather rough for you as you realize that this country has decided to move on from your xenophobic nonsense.

The people have spoken and more of them agree with my way of thinking than yours... the ones who disagree are presently losing their shit and trying to overturn the government.

If you're as tough and patriotic as you claim to be, shouldn't you saddle up to protect the Capitol of your state from these right-wing militias?

Or are you just going to sit on your sweat stained couch and rant and rave on the internet about what a proud American you are?

Help me!! Help me!!! HELP ME!!!!!!