It's not the kids like you who blow off school for reading that I worry about... they're still getting an education, even if it isn't a standard one.

I gotta hear about your interpretation of Hawthorne, though....

As those of us who have gone Galt on American parenting and pedagogy would say:

What an interesting problem you have created for yourselves. Do let us know how it all works out.

Barman, another drink.

When I was in high school, my Headmaster insisted that for every hour of class, the students should have an hour of homework.

I always felt, even at the time, that was unfair. We think adults working eight hours a day is reasonable. (Whether that's feasible is a different discussion.)

Why would be expect children to work 12-14+ hours a day?

That is interesting Patrick (and yes 9hrs of homework is idiotic). In all my schools the principal was rarely in the building. Usually they were over at the district building filling out federal forms or politicking or something.

Plus sports and extras if they want to get into College... not to mention SAT prep and driver's ed...

...my Headmaster insisted that for every hour of class, the students should have an hour of homework. ~ Patrick at January 21, 2021 3:17 AM

...and yes 9hrs of homework is idiotic.... ~ Ben at January 21, 2021 5:41 AM

Meanwhile in those countries that are beating us in science and math....

Meanwhile in those countries that are beating us in science and math....

Conan the Grammarian at January 21, 2021 6:09 AM

I’ve found, it isn’t the time spent so much, as the quality of the homework that counts. There is a huge difference between busy work, and skill reinforcement. Too much of the former, leaves bright kids jaded for the latter.

Some of the best classes I have ever taken, all the course work consisted of teacher handouts, and public domain materials.

This system favors those with economic resources and motivated and intact families. Those who don't have that luxury are going to have a harder time making it in life. I remember reading a statistic that only 1% of children in the foster system make it to college. With no private tutors, study bubbles, and parents to motivate them, their road continues to be a hard one. What a lovely two tier system we are perpetuating.

I'll echo Isab. School work is no different from other forms of work. We have an 8 hour work day for a reason. Once you pass 12 hours on the job the quality level drops drastically. You may be putting more hours in but you aren't getting more work out.

As for those countries that are beating us in science and math . . . .

Finland is regularly ranked as the best education system on the planet. Their school day lasts from 4-6 hrs. Homework is minimal. The main difference is their schools are much less bureaucratized. There is no set lesson plan. Instead teachers are empowered to do just about anything they want while at the same time being responsible for the outcomes they produce.

In Japan school is about 6.5 hrs. While homework is common they do not then do 9 hrs of extra homework after school. The main difference is what they do in school. US schools waste a lot of time. Japanese schools use direct instruction, proven repeatedly to be one of the most effective education systems. US schools usually do not. After all it is rather hard on the teachers and does lead to early teacher burnout.

More time in school and more word done out of school isn't the solution.

My neighbor is a teacher and she said that, with virtual lessons and homework, they're having trouble keeping even the good students motivated and involved.

I don't know if that's because they did not prepare virtual lessons and basically moved their in-person teaching methodology to a virtual medium or if the virtual medium by itself is inadequate as a long-term teaching methodology.

I’ve found, it isn’t the time spent so much, as the quality of the homework that counts. There is a huge difference between busy work, and skill reinforcement. Too much of the former, leaves bright kids jaded for the latter. ~ Isab at January 21, 2021 7:13 AM

I'd agree with that - with one caveat. Sometimes repetitious work reinforces a lesson and drills the lesson into muscle memory.

Wax on. Wax off.

It is the former Conan. There are modern equivalents to the mail order education of yore. They actually work quite well. And agreed repetition is important. The best version is repetition over a long period of time. You don't just build those arm muscles and call it quits for several years. You wax on/wax off for life.

I'd agree with that - with one caveat. Sometimes repetitious work reinforces a lesson and drills the lesson into muscle memory.

Wax on. Wax off.

Conan the Grammarian at January 21, 2021 7:59 AM

I don’t consider repetition to be busy work. It is totally necessary in music, math, reading and athletic skills.
And a lot more of it is necessary than can be accomplished in limited classroom hours.

What I consider busy work, are make work projects that require students and parents to go on time consuming public library or big box store hunts for materials or tiny prices of information to learn something that could easily be transmitted on a single worksheet by a teacher who understands direct instruction. (As Ben said)

The best math teacher I ever had, gave a 10-15 minute demonstration on the math concepts that we were covering that day, and then set us to work on a series of problems that reinforced that concept. At the end of the class, the brighter students had just about finished, but I often had a problem or two left to do which would be due at the beginning of the class the next day. Slower workers often had quite a few problems to take home.
I have often wished I had a teacher as good as she was in high school and college. I never did.

The best of these virtual lessons is that parents and teachers are finding out whose fault is it that the kids are failing at school.

And neither of them are liking the answer.

ShetMan, the Shetmeister, the Shetster, Super-G!

We disagree… In a critical choice of words.

> Those who don't have that luxury

'Economic resources' and lack thereof are a genuine burden, but in the modern United States, they're rarely insurmountable to those who want to be educated.

'Motivation' and 'intact families' are available freely and without government enthusiasm when the family (or individual) has the character to sustain them.



America dislikes one particular unpleasant truth: Some people are smarter than others.

I personally think there are more important things in life that being smart. Like, waaayy more important.

Nonetheless, nothing portends success in life better than intelligence. Academic achievement, fulfilling family relationships, rewarding friendships, wealth, avoidance of disease and mental difficulties and violence, even longevity itself: The brighter you are, the more likely you'll do well.

No guarantees, because it's Earth. But if you have a choice…

Intelligence is at least 50% heritable... It's as heritable as height, and it's as heritable as any human quality yet measured.

So at the instant of your conception, a lot of your outcomes are in motion. (The other half is a mix of what they call shared and unshared environment, with the latter being far more important: We build our own minds.)

School in the United States is built on a fantasy that with the right teaching and circumstances, anyone can be a success. Teachers unions adore this presumption, but it's not so.

Each of us is the product of a union. We are CREATED by people, by genetics and our experiences. I was born into a loving family by profoundly loving and stupendously resilient people. This was not a 'luxury,' randomly or surreptitiously handed to me. We are not lottery balls tumbling out of a machine.

The word "luxury" is a tragic, as well as repellent, distortion in a misbegotten notion.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

I mean, take notice of Pauling's spotlighting of the "socioeconomically advantaged" in the concluding passage Amy's provided.

Can everyone see why a teacher would compose the argument that way?

I personally think there are more important things in life that being smart. Like, waaayy more important. ~ Crid at January 21, 2021 10:54 AM

That reminds me of the story of Timothy Dexter. Starting out as a leather working apprentice, he amassed enough money to move to Boston, where he met a rich widow and married her.

He spent his leather working money buying depreciated Continental currency. Then, Congress decided to make good on it at 1% and Massachusetts at par, so he redeemed it for a tidy sum. Using that money, he started an export business with two ships.

Considering him to be stupid and uncouth, the monied folks of Boston decided to ruin him with bad investment advice.

His new "friends" told him to invest in bed warmers and send them to the tropics. Little did they know the emerging molasses industry needed skimmers. The bed warmers were sold at a profit.

He was then advised to send mittens to the tropics. Asian merchants bought them to sell in Siberia and he made another handsome profit.

Frustrated, his erstwhile destroyers advised him to send a large shipment of coal to Newcastle, England's coal capital. A miners' strike just happened to close the mines as the ship arrived and Dexter made yet another handsome profit.

On another occasion, they told him to ship gloves to the South Sea Islands. The gloves were sold to Portuguese boats on their way to China at, you guessed it, a tidy profit.

On their advice he shipped Bibles to the Muslim East Indies where missionaries snapped them up at a profit.

Their efforts to bankrupt him by telling him to send stray cats the Caribbean backfired when warehouses snapped them up to deal with a rat problem.

The monied elite finally settled for snubbing him. So, he built a huge house and wrote his memoirs. The memoirs were basically one long run-on sentence with random capitalization. When the monied elite laughed and pointed out that there was no punctuation in the book, he added pages of nothing but punctuation marks to be inserted where needed by the reader. The first printing was given away, but the subsequent eight printings sold out and netted Dexter a nice sum.

He decided for some odd reason to fake his death. Watching the wake from hiding, he got upset when his wife did not mourn him to his satisfaction. So, he revealed the hoax, sent the 3,000 guests home, and caned his wife.

The moral of the story is that, sometimes, it's better to be lucky (or insane) than it is to be smart.

Now, is that true?

Caning women is wrong. No, really, you shouldn't cane your wife, even if she doesn't love you enough.

But that's a fun tale.

What I consider busy work, are make work projects that require students and parents to go on time consuming public library or big box store hunts for materials or tiny prices of information to learn something that could easily be transmitted on a single worksheet by a teacher who understands direct instruction.

I had an elementary school teacher who was a big fan of these "interactive" assignments we had to complete WITH a parent. I used to do it all myself, then have my mom/dad sign the piece of paper that said we'd found three different types of rocks in our neighborhood "together" or read three newspaper articles "together" and discussed them.

Such assignments are apparently making a comeback, due to the assumption that parents have "plenty of time" to "participate" in their kids' virtual education during the work day. My friend recently was asked to basically co-write a book report with her kid. There were literal paragraphs the parents were asked to complete on a worksheet. I would honestly love to see my parents' reactions to a school asking them to do that.

Now, is that true? ~ Crid at January 21, 2021 11:59 AM

Everything I've read says it is. Still, it seems like something out of a Washington Irving satirical history.

His autobiography is available on Amazon, A Pickle for the Knowing Ones: Plain Truth in a Homespun Dress.

"I don't know if that's because they did not prepare virtual lessons and basically moved their in-person teaching methodology to a virtual medium or if the virtual medium by itself is inadequate as a long-term teaching methodology." Conan

I'd go with option A. Kids sitting in front of a screen and paying attention, does happen, just ask any cartoon. As for learning virtually Kahn Academy has been doing it for a while now.
But it is different than being in person and most people (teachers included) wouldn't know how to change their lesson plans or teaching styles overnight. I've taught adults in person and remotely, and it is different. To me mainly in a few ways. 1. Immediate feedback. Looking in peoples faces, minor body movements tell you if they think they are following along or bored or confused.
2. juggling too many screens. I have to see what I'm presenting, my notes, if anyone is texting me, then if I can see faces the feedback.
3. Excitement is contagious, but not remotely.

I will have to dig it up but the research shows that learning from a screen is not as effective. There's something about in-person that makes a difference. It's unclear what it is. Perhaps it is as simple as being more eager to please the person in front of you than someone on a screen.

We only had 6 weeks of homeschool, but I liked what the teachers did. They gave us some assignments and a schedule they wanted them done by. There was enough to add structure to the day but not so much as to be overwhelming. We supplemented with activities like identifying wildflowers, lots of outdoor time and play time, reading books about volcanoes and other sciencey things kids love. It was a good time. They occasionally met with the teacher on zoom.

Conan: Meanwhile in those countries that are beating us in science and math....

Conan, if you see this, I can't tell you how depressing it is to realize that I'm the only person who got that joke.

Just letting you know, for whatever it's worth, at least I got it.

Crid: I personally think there are more important things in life that being smart. Like, waaayy more important.

We noticed.

It is the former Conan. ~ Ben at January 21, 2021 8:42 AM

I'd go with option A. ~ Joe J at January 21, 2021 4:18 PM

I think you guys are right. The lessons were little more than the in-person lessons given virtually.

We once had a discussion on this blog of what we could expect in eBooks going forward. We speculated the inclusion interactive maps, video embeds, moving graphs, etc. - a meld of reading, video entertainment, and interactive gaming.

Like the flying car, that never came to pass. Virtual lessons should engage the viewer using al the capabilities of video and interactive media - not just be a teacher lecturing a screen full of avatars hiding sleeping children. Somebody mentioned cartoons and video games being able to hold kids' attention. Exactly.

The teacher lecturing a room full of children, all trapped at learning pace of the slowest students, should be an anachronism; but the teachers unions fight the implementation of customized learning modules in our school systems.

==========

Just letting you know, for whatever it's worth, at least I got it. ~ Patrick at January 22, 2021 2:01 AM

Thanks, Patrick.

I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to say there, so I left it vague. Others later completed it nicely with comments about better in-school education and better at-home education vs. busy work and the inanity of homework projects that have nothing to do with the actual lessons being taught.

That's this blog at its best, a salon of ideas, each building on the other; a place where a half-thought idea can be expressed freely. Civil disagreement and, at times, good-natured ribbing.

There's an amusing scene in Gung Ho, where Gedde Watanbe plays a Japanese executive relocated to America. His children are running around the house and screaming - a la American children - while he, in frustration, yells "read a book."

That small throwaway scene encapsulates the differences in attitude toward education. To them, it's constant and ongoing process. To us, it's 6 hours in classroom and that's it. It's the teacher's job.

> We noticed.

Fucker.

> We noticed.

Fucker.

Crid at January 22, 2021 7:16 AM

It has been my experience that there are a lot of totally useless people in the world whose single claim to fame is waving around their high IQ scores.

They are usually ill equipped to deal with real world problems. (Like violent drunks on an airplane)

This is why so many of them are totalitarians. They lust for the power to make others do their bidding because of the deep seated realization that they are drones, not equipped to do any of life’s heavy lifting themselves.

Their entire identity is wrapped up in being one of the intellectual elite with the appropriate diplomas. (And if it isn’t from one of the *right schools* it will remain unmentioned)

Shtetl:
This system favors those with economic resources and motivated and intact families.

It has nothing to do with the system. *Life* favors people with resources, including good parents.

I cant track meaning of this story, because it's written in the ancient and impenetrable language of stultus adolescentia-

On May 31, the mobbing of PR/marketer and stylist Jessica Mulroney was seeded when Black Toronto influencer Sasha Exeter put a call-to-action video on her Instagram (IG) feed, directing followers to post anti-racism messages in solidarity with Black Lives Matter (BLM). Although Jessica follows Sasha, they were not friends. Their professional paths occasionally crossed, because both had partnerships with similar fashion and lifestyle brands.

But for the record:

Jessica says she missed the video.

Wrong thread! I hate that.

I had the radio on while I worked and they had an interview that is somewhat related.

The parent being interviewed was talking about how they had pulled his son from regular school and put his son in some online school that has been going for some time (meaning well before Covid). He said his son did not want to change but after being in it a few weeks never wants to go back to regular school. The parent said he was not so sure about that. The parent said the son was doing much better...even better when the school was normal in person. Part of this he attributed to the teachers not having to deal with the unhappy, slow or disruptive students. The classes were also designed to be online.

"To us, it's 6 hours in classroom and that's it. It's the teacher's job." ~Conan

Six? My kids go in just after 8AM and come out just before 5PM. That is nine hours . . . for kindergarten. Which is why I said 9 hours of homework is insane. Patrick's headmaster wanted an hour of homework for every hour in class. So what? 18 hours of school work a day and only 6 hours of sleep? That doesn't work.

"The parent being interviewed was talking about how they had pulled his son from regular school and put his son in some online school that has been going for some time (meaning well before Covid)." ~TFB

I've looked into those. There are some really good programs out there. Some really bad one too but lots of really good ones. There are a few problems for me which is why I didn't go that route (though maybe I'll change my mind later).

1. Credentiation. Yes your kid will learn more than they would in public school. But you have to prove that at the end. Essentially you take the GED, and that has significant negative feelings attached to it (though not as much as it used to).
2. Cost. Texas spends roughly $9k/student/year (maybe closer to $11k depending on who does the accounting). So me spending another $4k/kid on top of that is significant.
3. Daycare. Just like most people I can't watch the kids and work at the same time. If the kids are at home doing their coursework I can't design software or circuit boards at the same time. It just doesn't work. The little interruptions here and there mean nothing useful gets done. Like it or not but daycare service is a major value public schools offer. Possibly the most valuable thing they offer. Which is sad.

Six? My kids go in just after 8AM and come out just before 5PM. That is nine hours . . . for kindergarten. ~ Ben at January 22, 2021 12:47 PM

How much of that is recess, lunch, and non-class time?

I believe that rule-of-thumb of X hours of homework / study for every hour in class originated in college - where one has 3-4 classes per semester at 3 hours of class for each in a week. Applying it wholesale to high school where one has 6 classes at one hour each per day loses something in the translation.

I like the part where the parents don't get to go home three hours early every day "because I've got kids, here, you do my work for me".

I really like the part where they see what the schools have been up to behind their backs.

And I really, REALLY like the part where they see what their kids are truly like around others.

And I truly adore that home-schooled kids ultimately reflect their parents' mindset. What's that? Jesus rode a dinosaur, you say? Well, thanks for coming in. Next candidate!

This COVID thing might actually help sort out our failed educational system.

Ken, life indeed favors people with intact families and resources, BUT it is true that having everyone homeschool exacerbates the problem. I do know kids who, during the pandemic, basically played video games all day. The parents had essential jobs and the kids were stuck. The state provided childcare for up to age 10, but the over-10s were screwed.

The other 10s did seem to have a pretty cool curriculum.

"How much of that is recess, lunch, and non-class time?" ~Conan

About 2-3 hrs. And that is for kindergarten. You get less the higher you go.

All K-12 levels are roughly 9hrs long. It matches the work day. When you only have one parent you have to match their work schedule.

As for losing something in the translation, yeah. You lose everything in the translation from college to grade school. The headmaster was an idiot on that.

High school and middle school are way too stressful. I've worked many years in adolescent psych. From the last week of September through June my adolescent psych units are filled to capacity with over-stressed, suicidal kids suffering from overwhelming depression, anxiety, PTSD, dissociation, psychosis... many of them survivors of lethal suicide attempts. During the school year we turn away more kids than we're able to admit.

During the summer we have barely enough admissions to justify keeping the units open... usually less than one-third of capacity (This past summer of lockdowns and isolation was an exception; 24/7 isolation, especially in close proximity with parents and siblings, is very unhealthy for teenagers)

One summer we had no kids at all for two-and-a-half months. So we filled the unit with psychotic adults. There's plenty of those all year, except from Thanks Giving through New Years when the census goes down on the adult units.

“High school and middle school are way too stressful.”

I’m not sure that cause and effect isn’t revered here. Maybe the problem is that we are raising a bunch of hot house flowers in isolation in their own little video game/ social media nest. When they bump up against real life interacting with others, and demands being placed on them, they are totally unprepared for it.

Isab: ...hot house flowers in isolation in their own little video game/ social media nest. When they bump up against real life interacting with others, and demands being placed on them, they are totally unprepared for it.

I don't think so. Maybe there are some who fit that stereotype - always have been - but it is a stereotype.

When I was 16 I started school at 8:00 AM and left by 2:20. I had a couple hours of homework two or three times a week. I had enough time for a part time job after school and on weekends - enough time and money to pay for my own car and insurance, take a girl on a date, buy a few things I liked, do things with friends, get in a little trouble, and start creating my own life. My parents were not well off, they had six kids, my dad worked two jobs, we lived in a small house - but I and my five sisters each had enough time to keep up in school, socialize and have some fun, and start learning how to live our own lives.

Today school takes too much time and is too much stress. When they're not in the hospital, the kids I work with start school at 7:30 AM and leave at 3:30 PM, if they have no extracurricular activities. They often have twelve or more hours a week of homework (when did that become such a high priority?) They have too much pressure to keep their grades up (the Asian kids have it the worst) There's way too much peer pressure and drama, and more bullying than there was in past generations (all of which could be symptoms of too much stress) Kids have little time to hang out with their friends, and to socialize with other kids for hours at a time. Very few have driver licenses, let alone their own cars. They have little or no opportunity to have jobs, earn their own money and buy their own things. Very little time to start creating their own life. Many of them never have their first job until they're out of high school.

I think stress from school is the biggest reason rates of depression, anxiety and suicide have been rising steadily for the past couple of decades.

Thanks for your comment. I thought when I posted my comment it would be too late for anyone to notice.

I'd say it is both at the same time Isab. Schools are very unusual environments. Yes most people come out without being prepared for the real world. But at the same time that environment isn't kind and nurturing, aka a hot house. It can be excessively stressful without being useful at the same time.

KenR, You brought up some important points. But I think that you were raised in a very real environment. With five sisters, I can’t imagine that you ever escaped from reality.
You probably also had an intact home and family.

It has been my experience that schools now spent the better part of their time trying to fix things that can’t be fixed, and a lot of busy body make work.

No amount of social engineering can make up for no dad in the home.

Schools are trying to be everything for everybody as opposed to achieving a simple mission. Reading, writing, math and non disruptive classroom behavior used to be enough. It still should be.

Children do best in large close knit extended families that keep the front end in front. Children thrive on certainty, and a simple but fairly rigid schedule of eating sleeping, play and work. That seems to be very rare these days.