“The Toxic Blindness Of Progressive-Colored Glasses

If you want to say that based on Virginia Heffernan’s skeptical view of her neighbors’ act of kindness, then it’s just as logical to say “The Toxic Stupidity Of Conservative-Colored Glasses” based on the bizarre views held by Marjorie Taylor Green.

This is also kind of weird. Back in the city, people don't sweep other people's walkways for nothing.

Nonsense. Of course they do. I don't know where Virginia has lived, but kindness between neighbors is not reserved for suburbs or rural areas, nor is it starved in big cities.

I've lived in cities most of my life, and have been the recipient of kindness from my neighbors many times, including the elderly black man (I'm white), who knocked on my door to let me know he saw someone going into my backyard (it was a meter reader). Had he needed assistance for anything, there was not a person on the street who wouldn't help out Mr. Irons.

My elderly mother lives in the suburbs of a city. When she was having home renovations, it was the young mother down the street who confronted the workers in the driveway and wouldn't leave until my mother came out to confirm she had hired them and was comfortable with them coming in and out of the house.

On my last trip to New York City, a woman who did not speak English was obviously in distress trying to buy a MetroCard. I attempted to assist her (clumsily) and kept looking over my shoulder at the long line of New Yorkers waiting to use the machine. To a one, they all said, "Take your time. No hurry."

Looking out for your neighbors, and doing kindnesses for them, is not an urban/rural situation. It's a human situation.

Fucking knock on their door with a covered dish. Develop a rapport. Unless you know a better way to win hearts and minds... perhaps writing a nasty article about them will get them to be less racist.

Fucking knock on their door with a covered dish. Develop a rapport. Unless you know a better way to win hearts and minds... perhaps writing a nasty article about them will get them to be less racist.

NicoleK at February 8, 2021 12:27 AM

So are we now assuming that the only reason a person would vote for Trump is because they are racist? Kind of a vicious stereotype of 75 million plus people, including a lot of blacks and hispanics who voted for Obama both times, but decided Trump wax a better bet than Hill or China Joe.

I also can't give my neighbors absolution; it's not mine to give. Free driveway work, as nice as it is, is just not the same currency as justice and truth. To pretend it is would be to lie, and they probably aren't looking for absolution anyway.

Her neighbors do something nice, and in response, Ms Heffernan has to twist herself into ever greater contortions to justify her prejudices.

This is also kind of weird. Back in the city, people don't sweep other people's walkways for nothing.

As Kevin pointed out above, that assertion is false, but perhaps it holds true among Ms Heffernan's cohort. And more's the pity if it does.

My Biden supporting neighbor mowed our lawn last year while we were on vacation. I didn't dissect his motives or mental health. In fact, as a Trump voter, I didn't even consider that we voted differently when it happened. I just said "thanks neighbor" over a couple beers.

Is this is what the self-proclaimed "open minded and tolerant" side of the political aisle has come to, that you cannot even appreciate an act of kindness from someone who votes different than you?

...then it’s just as logical to say “The Toxic Stupidity Of Conservative-Colored Glasses” based on the bizarre views held by Marjorie Taylor Green. ~ JD at February 7, 2021 10:22 PM

When did the biggest idiots of each party come to exemplify the party itself? And when did party membership define the entirety of one's political viewpoint? There are plenty of Republicans who are not big government social conservatives demanding the Bible be the basis of US law -- and a large, but shrinking, list of Democrats who are not progressives demanding that "woke" be the basis of US law.

Maxine Waters is not the exemplar of every Democrat, nor is Green the exemplar of every Republican. They are, however, the people their districts elected and they have a right -- nay, a duty -- to represent their constituents in the manner in which they were elected to do, no matter their stupidity. Let the stupid politicians be stupid and, hopefully, people will realize that they need to elect someone else, someone with an IQ higher than their pulse rate.

The big difference between Green and Waters is that Waters has ascended to a high level of leadership in her party whereas Green is a newbie and is already being shunned by her own party. Besides, Green has disavowed and walked back her earlier stupidity -- while "Auntie Maxine" still clings to hers.

Not that Republicans haven't had their share of idiots rising to leadership positions. This is not about "this party is smarter than that one," but about how we keep electing and re-electing idiots to represent us and make our laws.

"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

==========

As for whether you should ask the political affiliation of your neighbor before extending a helping hand, the answer is no. I just got back from taking my 90-something uncle to get his COVID vaccination. He's an Elizabeth Warren supporting progressive who favors socialized medicine. We disagree politically, but when he needs help, I do what I can. We all should help out those who need us.

A few years ago, his next door neighbors walked by and ignored his cries for help when he broke his ankle in the front yard. They'd been in a dispute because he wants them to stop their sons from playing basketball in the backyard court all day and into the night, perhaps instead having them go down to the nearby playground. He's never been good around children and they took his annoyance at children as a personal insult to their children.

They've got one of those "In this house, we believe...." signs in their front yard, but when it came to actually showing some compassion, their larder was empty for anyone who didn't meet their standards.

Now, are they exemplars of all progressives? No, of course not. They're jerks in their own right.

==========

I think the basketball dribbling being annoying is an old man thing. I met an 70-something man at the blood bank a few months ago who said he was being driven nuts by his neighbor's children playing basketball at all hours of the day and night. He said it didn't used to bother him, but it now bothers him greatly.

==========

I also can't give my neighbors absolution; it's not mine to give. Free driveway work, as nice as it is, is just not the same currency as justice and truth. To pretend it is would be to lie, and they probably aren't looking for absolution anyway.

She's right. They probably weren't looking for absolution, but just did their neighbor a good deed out of kindness and decency. She inserted herself into their deed with the absolution speculation. It's not her place to even consider whether she can give her neighbors absolution.

Political differences probably never entered their mind when doing the deed. They probably saw someone in need and helped them.

Perhaps it was the state of her being in need that caused her to grasp the absolution piece as a way of putting her world view back in order and psychologically ranking herself above them again -- i.e., "They may have helped me, but they were obviously seeking forgiveness for their earlier sins; as the non-sinner and self-appointed arbiter of morality, I'm still morally superior." That self-aggrandizement is on her.

Speaking of progressives' toxic blindness, there is an absolute circle jerk going on right now (Reddit and Twitter) over a Capitol Hill cop getting his eye gouged out during the riot.

Didn't happen. The cop said the maniacs were gouging at his eyes, but no, he didn't have an eye gouged out.

No matter. It's more fun to be outraged than accurate.

"This is also kind of weird. Back in the city, people don't sweep other people's walkways for nothing."
She is somewhat correct. The elites are more mobile and have little sense of community. The only way they meet their neighbors is via their kids. Helping someone directly is foreign to their world outlook because that is the government's job. They are very generous with tax payer money but not with their own time.

There is a whole universe of doing good one can do but progs view holding the correct political views as the only way to show virtue. In my neighborhood people help each other. Some of the things I have seen people do that make the world better include the following:
go with their trained dog to the hospital to cheer people up
help a hoarder clean out their house
teach sunday school
coach kids sports
visit people in the hospital
check on neighbors
take food to sick friends
wave to people
befriend a black neighbor
This kind of thing could do a lot to tone down the violence and anger going on. Being suspicious of someone who shovels your snow? Not so much

"absolution" So is the author even making an attempt to deny they are in a religion/cult.

“When did the biggest idiots of each party come to exemplify the party itself?

Conan, that’s probably been going on for a long time. The ancient Greeks and Romans were likely doing it.

But, in our time, I’m sure it’s been greatly accelerated by the existence of the Internet.

Given the pain and agony that this inconsiderate neighbor has caused them, the only responsible thing is for the neighbor to give them ease & relief by putting all that snow back where they found it.

But, in our time, I’m sure it’s been greatly accelerated by the existence of the Internet. ~ JD at February 8, 2021 1:46 PM

I don't know about accelerated, but the stupidity has definitely been amplified by the Internet.

And it this kind of neighbor - the author, not the neighbor written about - who I would NOT want to live next to.

Just imagine you are being kind to your neighbor, looking out for them as you would like them to do to for you, and this neighbor cannot see past how you voted?!

Amy, you are indeed too kind when you called it "Toxic Blindness Of Progressive-Colored Glasses." I would have called such a neighbor much worse.

I hope her therapist is reading this nonsense.

Isab you're right, that was not my intention.

But let's assume in this case she is right and these particular neighbors are racist... writing a nasty article is not going to solve the problem and is likely to make it worse.

Some resourceful journalist should go get the neighbor’s reactions.

Isab you're right, that was not my intention.

But let's assume in this case she is right and these particular neighbors are racist... writing a nasty article is not going to solve the problem and is likely to make it worse.

NicoleK at February 8, 2021 10:07 PM

I really long for the days when my neighbors and the government judged me for what I did rather than their suspicions about my voting habits.

What I’m saying here is someone’s possible racism is not something I as a neighbor need to make an inquiries into, any more that I need to quiz them on whether they adhere to my specific beliefs regarding *climate change* or whether they accept all the tenants of Calvinism.

Americans used to have a live and let live attitude. Now half the country are raving Nazis (and I’m not talking about the Trump voters)

Or, Americans used to understand that keeping their mouths shut about certain subjects in social situations, never mind the workplace (mainly, sex, religion and politics) was not Old World or silly, fuddy-duddy thinking - it was just practical. (That includes not even asking people for whom they voted! Of course, you can't make assumptions either.)

And, as Miss Manners pointed out decades ago, those are hardly the only subjects to abstain from if you don't want to come across as a boor in one way or another. Even outside of the workplace.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-01-01-9801010196-story.html

So, you ask, when DO you get to discuss controversial subjects in face-to-face situations?

Quote:

"...It isn't as though etiquette is opposed to airing controversy. On the contrary (so to speak): It prides itself on its specialty of providing rules for the very situations where controversial matters are most strenuously contested, such as courtrooms, classrooms and meetings. Etiquette (usually supplied by the rules of order of Miss Manners' colleagues Messrs. Robert or Riddick) is what keeps debate fair and to the point, rather than allowing one person to dominate or the whole thing to deteriorate into an exchange of insults..."

Isab Says:

"So are we now assuming that the only reason a person would vote for Trump is because they are racist? Kind of a vicious stereotype of 75 million plus people, including a lot of blacks and hispanics who voted for Obama both times, but decided Trump wax a better bet than Hill or China Joe."

No one assumes that the *only* reason someone might vote for Trump is because they are racist.

That it so happens that most racists voted for Trump is an issue that Trump voters need to resolve in terms of why their choice was so very appealing to neo-Nazi's and confederate types.

Another reason some folks voted for Trump is clearly because they cannot tell that 74,216,154 is less than "75 million plus".

So Trump had the racist contingent and the mathematically illiterate in his camp... quite the impressive bunch.

Isab Says:

"I really long for the days when my neighbors and the government judged me for what I did rather than their suspicions about my voting habits."

Followed shortly thereafter by:

"Americans used to have a live and let live attitude. Now half the country are raving Nazis (and I’m not talking about the Trump voters)"

Yeah... it sure is a shame that those "raving Nazis" who didn't vote the same as you did are busy judging you for your voting habits...

Why does he do this? Sigh.
And there is no apostrophe in "neo-Nazis."

Spiderfall,

I find that the most frivolous thinkers amongst us are myopically focused on unimportant minutia.

The logic and reasoning is what matters... and it is the think folks like you are most desperate to ignore entirely.

If someone chooses to align themselves with racists politically that is something they need to contend with philosophically.

It is not enough to say that you chose to cast in your lot with the Nazis because you liked certain tax policies.

Aretmis: "I find that the most frivolous thinkers amongst us are myopically focused on unimportant minutia."
So true. For example:
Artemis: "Another reason some folks voted for Trump is clearly because they cannot tell that 74,216,154 is less than "75 million plus"."
And your period in the second comment should go inside the quotes.

Also:
"That it so happens that most racists voted for Trump is an issue . . ."
That's not an issue; that's a lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnM1uHhsOI
Everyone's A Little Bit Racist - Avenue Q - Original Broadway Cast

Spiderfall,

Pointing out that someone on this very blog is restating verbatim nonsense propaganda used by Trump and his lunatic base to try and justify an overthrow of the government is *NOT* unimportant minutia.

It goes to the very heart of the problems we are currently facing.

We have had a concerted effort by conspiracy theorists to prop up this nonsense idea that the election was stolen from Trump by fraud and in this very conversation Isab is busy regurgitating nonsense about how Trump received at least a million more votes than was actually counted for him.

You sit here and focus on typo's... I am focused on facts... and in this case the misinformation I am discussing is one of any that caused a horde of Trump supporting lunatics to breach the capitol building to overthrow the government.

Lastly... you do understand the difference between the following two statements, right?

1 - "Most Trump supporters are racists"

2 - "Most racists are Trump supporters"

Those are not one and the same.

I've never claimed statement 1... I do stand by statement 2, and I stand by it on the basis of the massive white nationalist support that Trump has at the polls... that members of the KKK support Trump, etc...

What I am saying is born out by the facts and the evidence in front of us.

Statement 1 is difficult to prove and may in fact be false. Statement 2 appears to be correct based on the information we have available.

Spiderfall,

The point I am making and that clearly makes you very uncomfortable is that Trump is the candidate of the KKK... and the current GOP is the party of the KKK... as well as other groups that are deeply racist (neo-Nazis for example are not known for their tolerance of others on the basis of religion or skin color).

Dance around it all you like, but the facts are the facts:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-kkk/ku-klux-klan-newspaper-declares-support-for-trump-idUSKBN12X2IG

"A Ku Klux Klan newspaper has declared support for Donald Trump’s Republican run for U.S. president, saying America became great because it was a white, Christian republic."

Your tepid defense using a Broadway showtune doesn't help because I am not talking about mild issues of prejudice here.

The most racist people in America overwhelmingly came out in support of Trump.

That isn't imaginary... and you need to reconcile why they are in your coalition and why you aren't kicking them out.

The reality is that the GOP has made strange bedfellows with these extremely racist groups... the establishment members of the caucus do not particularly like them, but they also know they have no chance of winning elections without their support.

They've made a Faustian bargain, but the thing is that you do not walk away with clean hands from a deal like that.

Independents are watching and by and large they are not happy with what they are seeing.

Spiderfall,

Lastly... let's address this nonsense:

"And your period in the second comment should go inside the quotes."

What is with folks like you who become utterly imperious about arbitrary conventions of the English language?

Let's be very clear about the following:

https://www.thepunctuationguide.com/british-versus-american-style.html

"The above examples also show that the American style places commas and periods inside the quotation marks, even if they are not in the original material. British style (more sensibly) places unquoted periods and commas outside the quotation marks."

In other words... there is nothing incorrect about my usage, it just doesn't conform to your particular arbitrary (and as per the article less sensible) choices.

You might as well be throwing a tantrum because you saw someone spell the word colour and insist it is spelled color.

Both are fine if one is familiar with the larger framework of English language usage the world over.

All you are doing is demonstrating that your perspective is indeed myopic as I pointed out earlier.

It is time to step back and embrace a larger world... one where you understand that language isn't some precise science.

On the other hand, Isab's numbers for Trumps votes were in reality off by a minimum of ~1 million votes (rounded) and possibly by much more.

That isn't a matter of perspective, that is just math... and math is a precise science.

What is deeply disturbing is the more I watch folks such as yourself the more I see efforts to make facts fuzzy and arbitrary... and completely arbitrary conventions become set in stone.

This is not how a rational mind operates.

Orion, have you ever touched a black person?

Artemis,
Okay, you got me on the period/quotes thing. Though you had to go overseas to do it. Still, in your 10:48 post you confuse the plural with the possessive (typo’s). It’s one of my pet peeves. and may not be just a typo. Maybe Isab had an actual typo on the 75 million thing. The 4 is right next to the 5. Just like she typed wax instead of was. No big deal, +/- 1%, especially if you understand the traditional innumeracy of lawyers. A rounding error.

The Avenue Q bit was just some soft-sell. Your responses seem to support The Godess’ post about a toxic blindness. We feel the rage, see the name-calling, the straight-off-the-shelf talking points. Do you not see how the media beat the drum for a race war for the last 5 years? Did you not notice how we were being manipulated?

I didn’t really follow the Trump presidency. After Hillary’s concession speech, he’d done enough if that was all he ever did. The takeover of the Capitol building was not, by any measure, an attempt to take over the nation. It was a poorly organized group of less than 1,000 showing off for the cameras.

I just want to ask the question that no one asks.

Exactly where does an El Segundo Times wokester live that has snow?

Spiderfell,

None of this is about getting you... I am trying to help you to focus on matters of substance. That you were even focused on the very specific placement of a punctuation mark (a placement we now agree is an arbitrary convention) as opposed to discussing matters of real importance is the problem.

"Maybe Isab had an actual typo on the 75 million thing. The 4 is right next to the 5. Just like she typed wax instead of was. No big deal, +/- 1%, especially if you understand the traditional innumeracy of lawyers. A rounding error."

If Isab popped in to say that she simply made an error and that she hit the wrong key I would accept that.

The problem here is that misrepresentations in this case are in fact a big deal.

Isab isn't even close to the first to misrepresent the total number of votes that Trump recieved:

https://yournewsnet.com/president-trump-asserts-the-75-million-people-who-voted-for-him-will-have-a-giant-voice-long-into-the-future/

“The 75 million great American patriots who voted for me, America first, and make America great again, will have a giant voice long into the future. they will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”

That is a direct quote from Donald Trump himself where he misrepresented his vote total with the exact same number that Isab did.

These kinds of misrepresentations are what fueled a violent attack on the US Capitol resulting in the deaths and injury of many people.

We cannot pretend that distortions like this have no consequences... we cannot insist they are not a "big deal" when people are willing to commit murder based on those false beliefs.

If Isab made a mistake I would be willing to accept that... but at the same time we cannot let this kind of misinformation fester.

The instant a misplaced punctuation mark on one of my blog posts results in a violent mob trying to overthrow the government I will find your criticisms more credible and substantive. Until then we must recognize the difference between what we are talking about.

My typo's are harmless... the misinformation being spread about the 2020 election was not and is not harmless.

Spiderfall Says:

"It was a poorly organized group of less than 1,000 showing off for the cameras."

This doesn't help your argument.

The Capitol is supposed to be a well-guarded and secure building.

How exactly do you suppose a "poorly organized group" of "less than 1,000" people managed to breach that building?

Who exactly was responsible for protecting that building Spiderfall?... which branch of government controls the military and law enforcement within DC?

Never touched a black person, but you want to explain how racism works.

Artemis, what a dog’s breakfast. But okay. If you’re not going to try (typo’s again), I’ll mark you down as a punctuation irritation and let it go at that. You could have dinged me too. Goddess has a double-d.
The 74/75 million thing was just looking at other possibilities instead of buying into leftist conspiracy theories ( a direct quote from Donald Trump himself!!). As you mention, others here can speak for themselves; though nobody cares whether you accept their words.
In matters of substance, do not lecture me about inflammatory rhetoric. Pop media, the hive-mind shaping stuff, relentlessly promoted stories about white-on-black injustice. I watched the Yahoo news feed and never once saw race mentioned as a factor in any other way. For five years. Then came George Floyd. Do you have any comment on the dead or the damages?

In an earlier post you brought up the Klan. Trump has repeatedly distanced himself from white nationalism. Just because a girl likes you doesn't mean you're going steady. Anyway, the FBI estimates there are around 7,000 and a declining membership. OTOH, a more alarming and vibrant group is the Nation of Islam, around 35,000 members. They are affiliated with the Congressional Black Caucus, of which Kamala Harris is a member. If you type in “white people devils,” this page is top of the list:

https://www.marintheatre.org/productions/fetch-clay-make-man/fcmm-noi

Tell me this is what you want for our country.

Laughter is used as a Hindu yogic practice to get the breath activated. You are a tonic.

Oops. Harris used to be a member of the CBC. Now she's Vice-President.

Spiderfall Says:

"The 74/75 million thing was just looking at other possibilities instead of buying into leftist conspiracy theories ( a direct quote from Donald Trump himself!!)."

It isn't a "conspiracy theory" to directly quote misinformation spread by the former president.

Conspiracy theories are things like Qanon nonsense where they believe Trump is still president and just waiting in the wings to lock up all of the Democrats come March 4th.

Directly quoting misinformation being spread by a political official isn't a conspiracy... it is something that happened that had unfortunate and deadly consequences based on the beliefs and actions of right-wing loons.

"In matters of substance, do not lecture me about inflammatory rhetoric."

Yes, yes, yes... I know... you and all the other conservatives on this blog will do the lecturing around here... but no one better tell you anything.

Cut the shit Spiderfall... the moment you started giving lectures on punctuation that completely ignored the fact that these are arbitrary conventions that are not at all universal you lost all credibility on the "lecture" front.

Sometimes even you need to have someone explain and/or point something out to you.

Adults call that having a conversation.

"I watched the Yahoo news feed and never once saw race mentioned as a factor in any other way. For five years. Then came George Floyd. Do you have any comment on the dead or the damages?"

Sure Spiderfall... no one ever had any conversations about race issues until after George Floyd... can we get back to reality?

Did you live through Rodney King, or are you too young to remember that?

Racial issues have been an ongoing part of public discourse for generations at this point.

George Floyd is just a recent part of that conversation.

"In an earlier post you brought up the Klan. Trump has repeatedly distanced himself from white nationalism."

No, in actuality he has not.

What he has done is been luke warm toward white nationalism.

He goes back and forth... sometimes he will denounce them after public pressure... other times he will call them very fine people in off the cuff statements.

One does not get credibility on the issue of rejecting white nationalism when they flip flop.

Never touched a black person, but you wanna talk about white nationalism in the United States?

Crid,

According to you I've never been in physical contact with anyone... I'm apparently just an incorporeal specter floating through the ether.

You just like to make things up and then present arguments based on your imagination.

You are no different than Trump insisting that Obama wasn't born in the US and demanding to see his birth certificate.

You are just a wildly less accomplished and immensely less popular version of Trump.

Many dislike him because he is unethical and dishonest... you seem to dislike him because he is wildly more successful than you despite you both having the same schtick.

Despite your most sincere wish you will never be as popular as Trump even if you copy how he acts.

If you've never shaken a black hand, who cares about your yammering?

Crid,

Just because you are xenophobic doesn't imply anyone else is.

Why on earth would I object to shaking the hand of any person on the basis of skin color?

For all you know I could be Nigerian, Ethiopian, Kenyan, etc... which makes your statement all the more deranged.

Just shut up already... your insanity of boring.

“What he has done is been luke warm toward white nationalism.”

So in order to combat white nationalism we are supposed to vote for the party of the Klu Klux Klan.

JFW Says:

"So in order to combat white nationalism we are supposed to vote for the party of the Klu Klux Klan."

This is a silly argument.

The KKK has been a consistent voting block within the GOP for decades at this point.

There was a political realignment that took place in the 20th century where the Democrats became the party of liberals and the Republicans became the party of conservatives.

In fact the GOP encouraged this with the so-called southern strategy to curry favor with southern racists (including the KKK) when they became disillusioned with the Democrats support of civil rights.

Political parties are fluid entities... at one point the Republican party was an honorable one... the party of Lincoln is no more in any legitimate sense.

You're argument is akin to suggesting that no one with the last name "Washington" could ever betray the USA.

Legacy doesn't work that way.

JFW,

Just to be crystal clear... there is a reason that the GOP is the party that wages confederate flags:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

"In American politics, the Southern strategy was a Republican Party electoral strategy to increase political support among white voters in the South by appealing to racism against African Americans."

The KKK was driven out of the Democratic party and the Republicans welcomed them with open arms.

That is just something you have to own at this point.

Ever kiss a Jew?

“The KKK was driven out of the Democratic party and the Republicans welcomed them with open arms”

Robert Byrd?

Artemis at 3:27, "I'm apparently just an incorporeal specter floating through the ether." That possibility occurred to me just this afternoon. Maybe Artemis is the name of an AI project. In mythology Artemis was regarded as a patron of girls and young women and a protectress during childbirth. And for that you need empathy. What better place for a bot to learn than the Science Advice Goddess blog? It's Sci-Fi come to life (see Star Trek episode 19, "Requiem for Methuselah." An immortal designs a fem-bot for companionship but needs someone to teach her about love. Enter James T. Kirk & Co.)
It makes some sense now. The adherence to doctrine. The inability to consider questions outside the canon. The nonsense provocations to engage and practice. Well, I can't teach you about love. I would have to be able to touch you for that. But we can work on empathy, a good first step. It's based on attentive, responsive dialogue. Let's practice.

If I accept that your punctuation app is glitchy, and you agree; then you don't need to mention it again.

If an actual event or statement is counter to your programming, such as Mr. Trump's nationally televised statement, “I condemn all white supremacists, I condemn the Proud Boys. I don’t know much about the Proud Boys but I condemn that,” then you can say, "Great" and have the data updated after hours.

Reading comprehension is a good dialogue skill. If someone suggests that media has run a race-baiting campaign for five years, a response like, "Sure, no one ever had any conversations about race issues until after George Floyd," makes it look like you're not paying attention. That's rudeness. You could ask for examples, or even say that you had noticed the same thing yourself.

This part was good: "Did you live through Rodney King?" Yes, thank you for asking. I was working in El Segundo, by LAX, in 1992. I even have a really fun story about the riot. See? Now we're having a conversation.

Spiderfall Says:

"That possibility occurred to me just this afternoon. Maybe Artemis is the name of an AI project."

Remember just a moment ago when we were talking about conspiracy theories?

"It makes some sense now. The adherence to doctrine."

lol... what a joke.

You're the one bitching and moaning about the specific placement of individual punctuation marks on a blog and then calling it a "pet peeve".

The bible thumpers and blind adherents to tradition do not typically land on my side of the fence.

Generally speaking that would be the people you are talking about.

Interestingly, this entire conversation originally revolved around me objecting to Isab blindly adhering to misinformation promulgated by Donald Trump about his vote tally.

That is what you have been trying to defend for some reason.

"But we can work on empathy, a good first step. It's based on attentive, responsive dialogue. Let's practice.

If I accept that your punctuation app is glitchy, and you agree; then you don't need to mention it again."

So let's get this straight. Your idea of "empathy" is you dictating to others what they can and cannot say on an internet blog?

"If an actual event or statement is counter to your programming, such as Mr. Trump's nationally televised statement, “I condemn all white supremacists, I condemn the Proud Boys. I don’t know much about the Proud Boys but I condemn that,” then you can say, "Great" and have the data updated after hours."

Here we have the person supposedly against adherence to doctrine explaining how once Donald Trump says something we must all take it as gospel truth and ignore things like context, other surrounding statements, and most importantly behavior.

Is this your standard now?... when a politician says something we should just take them at their word and accept it as truth irrespective of other evidence before us?

Keep in mind this is the same guy who said it wasn't raining during his inauguration when it was, who said the Conona virus was under control and would be gone nearly a year ago (there are contemporaneous recordings of him saying he was purposefully downplaying it), who drew on a weather map to demonstrate that Alamaba was at great risk for a hurricane when it wasn't, who said that windmills cause cancer, etc...

The list of distortions and untruths that have come out of Trump's mouth is so extensive this list could easily extend for pages.

However, we should just take at face value that he condemns the Proud Boys moments after he insisted that he didn't have a clue who they were.

Are you the kind of guy who would listen to a criminal case and upon hearing the accused say they didn't do it just be ready to acquit without bothering to consider the surrounding evidence?

Let's ask one very simple question Spiderfall.

How serious can one be in their condemnation of a group immediately after they insist they haven't the slightest clue who they are?

Cut the shit... politicians lie... business people lie... and if you want to have a good chance of winning a bet you would be well advised not to simply listen to one Donald Trump sound byte and presume he is being honest with you.

I'll go one step further. What exactly is your issue with Hillary Clinton if we can just listen to what people say and take them at their word?

What exactly has she said or done that I cannot find some quote to presumably exonerate her on?

If you want to have a serious conversation about political figures you really shouldn't be expecting anyone to just hear some quote and presume all is well.

It is the fact that many of Trump's supporters take his word over anything and everything else in front of them that caused his horde of seditious morons to try and overturn the election... Trump kept telling them that he won.

Was he being truthful Spiderfall?... can you even admit that Trump has a sordid history with telling the truth?

Artemus is Ross Martin.

Sorry if I spelled the name wrong, a fly landed on my Selectric.

Crid Says:

"Ever kiss a Jew?"

Why is everything with you about touching and kissing?

You've got to be the most superficial moron the world over.

How about I ask you a series of more substantive questions:

1 - Have you ever been invited over to someone's home for Seder?... if so what did you take away from it?

2 - Have you ever been invited to attend a bris?... if so what did you take away from that?

3 - What are your detailed thoughts comparing the differing traditions of Sephardi versus Ashkenazi Jews?

4 - Have you ever visited Israel?... if so where did you go and what did you do?... did you visit the Western Wall?... while we're at it did you visit the Dome of the Rock (an Islamic shrine also located in Jerusalem)?... did you visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (a Christian holy site also located in Jerusalem)?

The point being that you are completely obsessed with meaningless drivel.

Ever kiss this... ever touch that... these are the thoughts of a horney little boy... not the considerations of an adult interested in understanding the cultural heritage of those around them.

You have zero depth, no dimension or substance... you are about as shallow and thoughtful as a film of pond scum.

You're talking about race relations, but have never touched a black person. You've probably never seen one. There's no need to bother reading your inane and irrelevant stuff. Even Spidey wonders why you have no human identity…

Weirdness is all you've got. It's either a mundane assignment (doing cub scout work in internet mischief for the CCP) or the result of your personal deformity (crippling wheelchair loneliness in Bangalore or someplace).

Crid,

You have a nasty habit of first suggesting something that is false and then continuing to run with it as if it were true.

Let's cut to the chase... exactly where have I ever said anything about who I have or have not had human contact with on the basis of skin color?

You shouldn't even be talking here given your proclivity to inappropriately touch children... we don't take kindly to molesters around here.

Crid,

Also... you haven't answered any of my questions regarding your understanding of the Jewish faith.

When you talk about touching people but haven't the slightest idea about anything substantive about them it just makes you seem like a perverted creep.

I make friends with people, I have relationships with people... you "touch" them.

> I make friends with people,
> I have relationships

Nah, we'd know

> a fly landed

Ya gotta be the right age; that was the last TV show for youngsters that I could enjoy un-ironically.

A private train car seemed like a fine way to travel.

Crid,

When have you ever actually known anything of tangible worth?

At this point it is a safe bet that for pretty much anything you say the polar opposite is true.

I don't even believe you fully comprehend how monumentally deranged and stupid it is for you to suggest that in order for anyone to legitimately object to white supremacy they first must have kissed a Jewish person.

I can assure you that Jews are extremely happy to welcome support against white supremacists and neo-nazis even if the support comes from someone that was never physical intimate with a person of the Jewish faith.

You'd know and understand this if you had ever been invited into a Jewish families home for Passover.

Ya gotta be the right age; that was the last TV show for youngsters that I could enjoy un-ironically. ~ Crid at February 12, 2021 6:19 AM

The show was silly, but fun. The movie was horrible.

A private train car seemed like a fine way to travel. ~ Crid at February 12, 2021 6:19 AM

It always does in the movies. Reality is often different.

My wife and I took a train from Oakland to Bakersfield one time. I don't recommend it. Perhaps we were seduced by Hollywood's depiction of the romance of rail travel and the posters of magisterial beauty on the walls of the station.

Sitting in the station, waiting for the chronically late train, I looked at my fellow passengers. One of them had a long piece of twine he was using as suspenders. I was tempted to call America's Most Wanted and tell them they could stop looking, that I had found everybody.

On the journey, the train passed every stockyard, junkyard, and feed lot in the San Joaquin Valley. The odors put me off my lunch. And it wasn't much of a lunch. There were no romantic dining car flirtations. In fact, there was no dining car, just a snack bar selling cellophane-wrapped tuna fish sandwiches and bags of chips. No bar car either, just a lukewarm bottled beer at the snack bar.

Overall, the trip didn't take much longer than driving and offered comfortable seats with tables and real electrical outlets - much better than airplane seating. The rest room was large, the aisles roomy, and the ride smooth. Better scenery, however, would have redeemed the numerous shortcomings.

Artemis,
No. I don’t deal in conspiracy theory. The possibility that a typist’s finger missed a key, or that you are in training to be a nurse bot, are just speculations. Having several reference points keeps me from getting lost.

Whatever his vacillations, when Mr. Trump made his statement condemning white supremacy; that was a distancing. He is an egotistic showman at heart and was on the most widely watched basic cable network in the country. The one watched by his political base. It was one month before the election and he knew exactly the impact of his words. That is the context.
Here comes a speculation, get your pencil out. Begin with the premise that most people are nice. The political calculation is that the decent and fair-minded do not want to be associated with the creepy, slime-ball ethos of white supremacy.
Trump may have needed coaching on this point, but it meant more votes.

Of course Trump is horrible. Hillary Clinton is horrible too. If you don’t surround yourself with criminals and learn to have people killed, you’ve got no business being President. The difference between Don and Hil is that Trump has no friends. Even his own party turned against him. That puts the Executive in a weak position, as it should be. George Washington held that Congress should be the seat of power.

Mrs. Clinton is as insider as it gets. Ho ho, she’s even had a President inside her. They would be an unstoppable force for party politics. Geo. Wa. warned against that as well. See the second section of his Farewell Address.

You took a swipe at people who read the Bible. But why? Does that include the people of the Torah? Anyway, the visit to Israel may help you overcome your anti-traditionalist posturings.

> You'd know and understand this if

You've experienced nothing but can research anything, because Google.

> The show was silly, but fun.
> The movie was horrible.

👍 👍 Seeing the marketing materials at work meant avoiding the film… My second proudest skip, after Sister Act.

> they could stop looking, that
> I had found everybody.

Stealing that.

After Silver Streak, it seemed like a train trip might mean you'd get to have sex with Jill Clayburgh and steal cars with Richard Pryor.

Also, I saw Eva Marie Saint at LACMA several years ago. She looked really happy.

Spiderfall Says:

"No. I don’t deal in conspiracy theory. The possibility that a typist’s finger missed a key, or that you are in training to be a nurse bot, are just speculations."

All conspiracy theories begin with wild speculations that aren't well grounded in reality.

So yes... you do seem the type to deal in conspiracy theory when you put forth nonsense speculation about an artificially intelligent robot chatting with you on this blog.

That is tin foil hat talk.

"Whatever his vacillations, when Mr. Trump made his statement condemning white supremacy; that was a distancing."

The "vacillations" are the important part Spiderfall.

The "vacillations" serve a very specific political purpose.

We used to call this kind of thing pandering... where politicians say different things to different audiences at different times for the purpose of currying favor with different groups.

It used to be my impression that most rational voters found this kind of thing off putting... but not so when it came to Trump and his "vacillations" surrounding white supremacy.

In that very specific case what I am seeing is conservative folks who find things like neo-nazis unsavory latch on to any sound byte that makes it seem like Trump is "distancing himself" from it... while at the same time the white supremacists ignore those comments as PC comments required by the media and instead latch onto statements where he refers to them as "fine people" or tells them that he "loves them".

There is always some sound byte you can cling to with Trump because he constantly says things that contradict himself.

People have gone so far as created entire videos dedicated to this lunacy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSE-XoVKaXg&feature=youtu.be

That one is called "Trump Exposes Trump" and you have 5 minutes to listen to him saying completely opposite things.

So no... he doesn't get to offer positive feedback to white nationalists... then distance himself... and later offer more positive feedback... and then walk away with his hands clean.

All he is doing is playing the white nationalist hokey pokey.

You can insist that he has his hand out all you want... but then he puts his hand back in again and shakes it all about.

That is what the white nationalist hokey pokey is all about.

Crid Says:

"You've experienced nothing but can research anything, because Google."

This must be projection talking.

Of course anyone can try and research anything Crid.

However I can tell you what it was like to visit kibbutz... I can tell you what it felt like to "swim" in the dead sea... or to climb to the top of the neighboring Mount Masada.

I keenly remember the open markets of Jerusalem and the culture of haggling for the price of goods with the shop owners.

You on the other hand once rubbed yourself against a person wearing a Star of David necklace on a bus and for you it is all the same.

You checked off the box... you once "touched" a Jew.

Go fuck yourself.

How dare you

There's no way you've done any of those things… Not possible. You're not worldly.

Crid,

I don't have the slightest idea how much you have travelled... but I've had opportunities in my life to travel all over Europe and the Middle East.

I've also travelled across the US as well and been to several islands in the Caribbean (these were sping break events during my college years) and spent time traveling in Mexico.

I've traveled all over the place.

Your "beliefs" on this matter are unimportant.

So let's get back to the question at hand... has a Jewish family ever invited you to their home for Passover?

If the answer is no then you can shut up about all of this nonsense about "touching" people.

Your understanding of relationships is entirely superficial.

Jews don't want to be regarded as some kind of oddity where folks are supposed to "touch" them as some kind of box to check off in their life.

They aren't some travel destination to cross off your bucket list.

Jewish people are people.

Black people are people.

They do not exist for the sake of some quest completion mindset you have established like we are all in some video game where you seek to earn the "touched a Jew" badge.

The way you talk about these things says a lot about you... and it is very ugly.

Stealing that. ~ Crid at February 12, 2021 9:27 AM

Why not? I did.

My train luck does not run to meeting Jill Clayburgh types. It runs to meeting guys with twine for suspenders.

> it is very ugly.

Have your rabbi call the office… We'll work something out.

> luck does not run to meeting
> Jill Clayburgh types.

Mine means only glancing at EMS in the museum courtyard circa ~1999, forty years after the North by Northwest'ern glow had dimmed.

Artemis,
Hey, hey, hey. You're the one who suggested you might be just an incorporeal specter floating through the ether. I tried to figure out how that was possible. Combined with rudimentary social skills, AI project was my best guess. It's certainly being worked on in laboratories around the world. It's not totally whack.
Wild speculation built this country. It's a tradition in our culture.
We have a saying, "Politics is just show business for ugly people." With DJT we got the Daily Double. In show business, the Oct. 1, 2020 statement was no mere sound byte. It was a crafted performance on the big stage. I dare you to find any equivocation on white supremacy after that.
The hokey-pokey is a fun game. Do you have any references where I could see Trump put his right hand in with the white supremacists. It would make the analogy work better.

> AI project was my best guess.

…Or AI-assisted at least. DeepL has been getting a lot of attention lately, and of course, who knows what tools are being used by Google and Microsoft. And then you have to wonder if it's a passtime for someone in a distant land without a better hobby, or a (low-paying) assignment from a foreign government or business.

But yeah, lotta software involved. We've seen the idioms branch out over the years (if not actually improve) as the tech has been refined.

Spiderfall Says:

"You're the one who suggested you might be just an incorporeal specter floating through the ether. I tried to figure out how that was possible."

Lovely... you've just outed yourself as dishonest... I'm not surprised.

Here is what was actually stated:

"According to you I've never been in physical contact with anyone... I'm apparently just an incorporeal specter floating through the ether."

I never suggested I might be anything... what I said was that Crid regards me as such.

How can you pretend to be "nice" or "reasonable" when you take a statement that was clearly talking about Crid's delusions and then speculate on how it could in fact be true... and then blame me for that nonsense?

"Wild speculation built this country. It's a tradition in our culture."

No... our country was not built on "wild speculation".

Our country was built on enlightenment philosophy which deals with things like logic, reason, and evidence.

These things only seem like "wild speculation" to the uninformed and the uneducated.

Spiderfall,

Just out of curiosity... has Crid "touched" you?

This is a safe place, you don't need to be afraid.

Crid Says:

"Have your rabbi call the office… We'll work something out."

What nonsense is this Crid...

You're the one who keeps harping on the importance of "touching" Jews and Black people as some sort of a buy in to be able to speak out against white nationalism and its attachment to the GOP.

You don't say those things about of some deep care or concern for black people or for people of the Jewish faith... you say those things to try to shut people up when they point out that conservatives have allied themselves politically with neo-nazis.

What exactly do you suppose you are going to "work out" with a rabii?

Also... why can't you work something out with a Jewish person who isn't a religious authority?

If someone said something outrageous like you cannot decry the burning of a Catholic church unless you can prove you've "touched" a Catholic... it would be even more outrageous to them demand to speak with the pope to "work it out".

As I said... you're ugly.

Ever cuddle an Aborigine?

Ever snuggle a Swede?

Every hangout with a Hispanic?

I’m now leaning toward atheist autistic Jew who plays chess.
Probably born in the Ukraine. Hence the poor English grammar and syntax. I’d guess Chicago area, but could be wrong about that.

High school trip to Israel? We know you have no respect for religion or six thousand years of culture so that is about all it could be.

...forty years after the North by Northwest'ern glow had dimmed. ~ Crid at February 12, 2021 4:34 PM

Saw that a few nights ago. The climb down Mt. Rushmore was a silly plot device, but it was a decent movie overall.

Probably EMS in her best light - sophisticated, flirty, confident, and more mature than in On The Waterfront. By The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming, she'd been relegated to middle-aged housewife roles.

There's something guileless about that movie, and "decent overall" covers it nicely. (Mason & Landau are fun.) If your friend/date is in the right mood, they won't resent you for putting it on. With the fullness of time, it's most attractive as a historical record of design & environment in a (ahem) favorite year.

Ever ask a hotel front desk to have your suit "sponged & pressed"?

Crid Says:

"Ever cuddle an Aborigine?

Ever snuggle a Swede?

Every hangout with a Hispanic?"

Just some helpful advice... but there is no market for a xenophobic version of Dr. Seuss.

Unlike you, I don't feel compelled to spend my life trying to collect people to check off some list.

We are talking about people Crid... not a stamp collection.

Isab Says:

"I’m now leaning toward atheist autistic Jew who plays chess. Probably born in the Ukraine. Hence the poor English grammar and syntax. I’d guess Chicago area, but could be wrong about that."

It wasn't long ago you were insistent that I was a communist person of Chinese decent.

What you cannot seem to wrap your mind around is that you are utterly incapable of discerning anything about someone based on an online blog that they have not explicitly told you.

I do enjoy a game of chess now and again... but you only know this because I had a direct conversation with Conan the other day going over some details of how the game is scored.

Let's take a moment to recognize that you cannot tell the difference between a person from Ukraine and a person from China.

Those cultures are extremely distinct from one another.

You'd know this if you had even the slightest understanding of the world and it's people.

You are wrong about many things Isab... and it isn't limited to anything you suspect about my personal origin or background.

I have yet to see you be correct about anything of substance.

Aren't you supposed to be traveling to Nihon by now?... or have they decided that they don't want people like you in their country?

Based on your behavior I can see why your offspring had substance abuse issues.

You're just a bitter old lady seeking to take out your frustrations on a complete stranger.

I'd wish you a happy valentines day, but I suspect it will be lonely for you.

Okay. I fudged a bit there. The AI concept came to me earlier and I had the afternoon to ponder on it. When you brought up the same idea, it was almost too much coincidence. And you haven’t denied it.

Not built on wild speculation? It’s in this country’s DNA.
Tell the greatest military power on earth to piss off? July 4, 1776
Manifest Destiny? 1800 to 1900
Fly? 1912
Walk on the Moon? 1969
Walk on Mars? Maybe 2028
Everywhere you look, people are dreaming and trying. Watch some Elon Musk videos to get a feel for wild speculation. Just a seed of the possible is all it needs.
Philosophy is great stuff, but the soccer field has never scored a goal.

Has Crid ever touched me? That’s a rude question. A gentleman doesn’t kiss and tell.

Spiderfall Says:

"Okay. I fudged a bit there. The AI concept came to me earlier and I had the afternoon to ponder on it. When you brought up the same idea, it was almost too much coincidence. And you haven’t denied it."

You're fudging all over the place... we could all do with less fudge at this point.

As for "denying it"... I also haven't denied being a ghost, or an extraterrestrial, or a supernatural being sent by the creator of the universe to inspire and enlighten you, or a demon sent to torture you... or any number of other off the wall delusions a conspiracy theorist might cook up.

Rational people do not jump to conclusions that they are interesting with an artificial intelligence on some random internet blog.

"Tell the greatest military power on earth to piss off? July 4, 1776
Manifest Destiny? 1800 to 1900
Fly? 1912
Walk on the Moon? 1969"

None of these things were "wild speculation" Spiderfall.

Manned flight was not "wild speculation"... it was achieved through hard work and an understanding of the principles of lift.

Sending man to the Moon was also not the result of "wild speculation"... it was achieved through hard work and significant help from German scientists who pioneered rocket engines.

All of these things were informed.

They only appear "wild" to folks who lack an understanding of the underlying science and engineering principles.

"Everywhere you look, people are dreaming and trying."

Of course... and the people who have some grounding in reality actually accomplish something, while the people who speculate wildly end up going nowhere.

Elon Musk doesn't speculate wildly... Tesla was formed only after the energy density of lithium ion batteries was sufficient to permit long distance travel between charges. No one was trying to do this with lead-acid battery technology.

These things only appear "wild" to folks who are out of touch with state of the art science.

Before you know it you'll be hearing about things like air based batteries that are a fraction of the weight of lithium ion batteries... to you it will seem like "wild speculation"... but they have already been in the works for years by the time folks like you hear about them.

That is why it seems like it comes out of nowhere... because you don't watch these things develop from their infancy.

> A gentleman…

That time Jimi Hendrix got into a tussle with a guy who'd played on one of his tunes. Paul Caruso was getting on Jimi's nerves, being argumentative and not taking no for an answer.

Caruso reiterated his position and Jimi knocked him on his butt with a haymaker. Caruso yelled, "Don't touch me!" and Jimi responded, "I'll always touch you."

You have some understanding of tech development. The idea that man would one day fly was wild speculation for millenia. Now we take it for granted.

Bot-developers are definitely working on home-care assistants. And they definitely use the public for practice.

"Conversations used for training are organized as tree threads, where each reply in the thread is viewed as one conversation turn.
"The Meena model has 2.6 billion parameters and is trained on 341 GB of text, filtered from public domain social media conversations.*

Given the brilliance, the humor, and the humanity on display at The Science Advice Goddess blog, it's bound to be a go-to destination for the smart set of AI developers.

*
https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/01/towards-conversational-agent-that-can.html?m=1

Which we be more appalling... Learning that this is a (lightly tended) software product, or that it isn't?

Spiderfall Says:

"You have some understanding of tech development. The idea that man would one day fly was wild speculation for millenia. Now we take it for granted."

Well yes... I develop technology for a living... I'm a scientist.

The part you are missing is that the examples you gave are not "wild speculation".

At present the "wild speculation" would be how one might achieve faster than light travel... or if it is even possible.

However nothing it going to come of that "wild speculation" until we have evidence to follow that can be made practical.

So far as electric cars go... the very first cars happened to be electric vehicles... they were terrible by todays standards and once the internal combustion engine came out it was quickly replaced for the higher energy density alternative.

There was no "wild speculation" involved in any of the developments at Tesla... or how to get to the moon... or how to create the first airplane.

Ever step was informed by existing knowledge. These were practical steps based on what we already know.

We're not going to have someone build a faster than light warp drive akin to what we see in star trek based on fanciful "speculation".

It is find to have an imagination... but to make anything useful one needs to understand what is within reach and what is totally out there and unrealistic given what we know.

Technological advancement isn't a lotto where you buy a ticket and hope you win at random.

"Given the brilliance, the humor, and the humanity on display at The Science Advice Goddess blog, it's bound to be a go-to destination for the smart set of AI developers."

Not a chance... no one in their right mind would seek to use the comment section of this particular blog as a training set for text writing AI.

Crid's input alone would have the AI sexually harassing anyone the bot interacted with and accusing them of being disabled.

Crid Says:

"Which we be more appalling... Learning that this is a (lightly tended) software product, or that it isn't?"

I must admit that I am amused by the idea that you would have spent close to a decade ranting and raving at software about who they have and have not "touched".

That is the behavior of an insane person.

I'm offended. Ever been to a lake?

Crid,

If you are trying to emulate a cheesy comic book villain the least you could do is go with the classics.

Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

What country are you in?

Crid,

What is your DSM-5 clinical diagnosis?