No argument here, but… That last line.

Ditto re the last line... inadvertent as it may be.

If we consider having the "wrong" method of execution to be "cruel and unusual" when disposing of a mass murderer, we can certainly see that this "woke" bullshit is the same.

But the problem is faster than due process, which has to be used by someone with standing to claim offenses by the State. Right?

Other than stereotypes (i.e., women like dolls and men like cars), what criteria are these woke folks using to determine gender dysmorphia when biology is lying? Do they simply take a person at his/her word?

And, when a formerly-male prisoner says (s)he's a woman and needs a transfer, what objective criteria are used to evaluate his/her request? What behavior, while in the women's prison, can get him/her sent back to the men's prison?

How any trans-men are requesting transfers from the women's prison to the men's? If this number is not roughly equal to the the number of transfers in the other direction, or to the number in society itself, why does this not ring an alarm bell?

Let's be real. This is not a case of correcting a biological anomaly but a case of a prisoner requesting a transfer from a hellish men's prison to a less-hellish women's; someone seeking a chance to go from being a victim of predation to a predator.

The solution to this is the same as the solution to the trans-in-women's-sports problem: ignore how people "identify" and base assignments on DNA. The Y chromosome confers greater muscle mass and physical aggressiveness on its possessors, so anyone who has it shouldn't be imposed on those who don't.

Conan the Grammarian: "How any trans-men are requesting transfers from the women's prison to the men's? If this number is not roughly equal to the the number of transfers in the other direction, or to the number in society itself, why does this not ring an alarm bell?"

The state currently has 273 transfer requests; 266 are from people housed at male institutions requesting to be transferred to a female institution, and seven are from people at female institutions requesting to be transferred to a male institution
so 266 (m to f) to 7 (f to m). 97.4% one way 2.6% the other.

"what objective criteria are used"
Objective criteria is sexist, white supremacist Islamaphobic.

This and the riots are the issues that have me sniffing around the Welds and Romneys of the political world...

...so 266 (m to f) to 7 (f to m). 97.4% one way 2.6% the other. ~ Joe J at July 6, 2021 7:47 AM

And is that roughly equivalent to the breakdown that we're seeing in the non-incarcerated parts of society - i.e., sports, locker rooms, changing rooms, etc?

> numerous complaints of assaulted, abused, and traumatized women at the hands of male inmates transferred into their prisons,

Anybody smart enough to operate a spoon could see this would happen. It was not a question of "if," but "how many and who will be the worst?" And it's coming to the schools too. How many girls are they willing to offer up to parade their PC inclusiveness?
Here's another prediction. Some protective father or two is going to go to jail.
God, I despise the left.

Criteria for evaluating requests for transfer? hahaha we had believe all women (ie women never lie) to believe all trans (ie men never lie). Everyone lies, especially if it allows you to go shower with the ladies instead of with gangsters. They have forced women's shelters to allow "trans" (ie no proof) in, destroying the whole point of a shelter for abused women. On college campus' they want to police guys making a dirty joke but it is ok for men to share the showers with women and girls? The contradictions result from their world view being incoherent.

"And is that roughly equivalent to the breakdown that we're seeing in the non-incarcerated parts of society - i.e., sports, locker rooms, changing rooms, etc?"

Who knows? Would men complain if an f-2-m decided to compete against them in a sport, doubtful. Your opponent is 5' 2" and weighs 112 lbs. if a f-2-m came into the changing room? Especially since we are often talking no operation f-2-m. Make some feel uncomfortable sure, but likely their wives girlfriends would complain more.

Naw the real question is how many times can it happen before the sympathetic media allows it to hit main stream news unfiltered. Or without the accusers accused of sexism, racism or any other ism.

Next will be ageism. you have a full beard and are clearly in your 40s, yeah but I identify as a 12 yr old so put me in juvi.

Who knows? ~ Joe J at July 6, 2021 10:04 AM

Well, you'd expect that transsexuality would be relatively evenly split between the two (yes, two) genders. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

So, generally, what we're not seeing is a trend of trans-men arguing to be allowed into men's sports and prisons, but a large trend of trans-women arguing to be allowed into spaces shared by biological women. Hmmm.

It's possible that gender dysmorphia is not the wider part of what's going on here. It's possible that it's a power-dynamic. Men who feel they have no power in the men's arenas are arguing for inclusion in the women's arenas to gain the power they don't have in their own arenas. After all, they don't have to do any major transition activity in order to argue for acceptance into this new arena.

Perhaps they're doing so without realizing the deeper psychological motives, like a bipolar person self-medicating without fully realizing why.

Perhaps society's current obsession with stereotypes of male and female behavior has made it impossible to laud or admire a Fred Astaire type male - slight build, good dancer, and snappy dresser - without classifying him as gay or trans.

Could be. Or it could be the male/female conviction and sentencing bias carries through to the trans area. Remember over 90% of prisoners are male, a f-2-m who never got surgery probably gets the female discount when being arrested and when tried and when sentenced.
I don't have such numbers no idea where to find them.

" Men who feel they have no power in the men's arenas are arguing for inclusion in the women's arenas to gain the power they don't have in their own arenas. "

Well I believe both m-2-f and f-2-m trans have both said women have all the privileges in America.

> Well, you'd expect that
> transsexuality would be
> relatively evenly split
> between the two (yes, two)
> genders.

Not to be argumentative, but…

Hah! Kidding!

…Why would we expect that? Sexoid Dismorphio Profoondus (whatever it's called) is not a prevalent psychological pattern, not like 'I wish I was taller' or 'I wish I was better at math.' There may be thousands of environmental forces, or even biological ones, that could make it happen. I can't see that one would presume it lands evenly in populations.

Do we know enough to say? Colorblindness strikes men more frequently than women, and in different manifestations (IIRC).

Amy Says:

"Prison rape of men is a huge problem that is ignored. People, rather disgustingly, think it doesn't matter because the victims have committed a crime. (Of course, a number may be in prison a plea bargain.) This shows a lack of support for human rights, though people who think this way will deny that and then some."

and:

"Men are stronger than women, have more muscle mass, and have more capacity to do violence to most women than women have the capacity to fight back -- save those who are armed with a gun. (Not exactly a possibility in prison.)"

Taken together it seems reasonable to separate prisoners by weight class such that they can defend themselves against violent assault by folks who they have no chance against.

If we aren't going to do more to prevent violence in prisons then the least we can do is provide everyone a fighting chance, no?

"the least we can do is provide everyone a fighting chance, no?"

Exactly! Guns for all the prisoners. It's the only way to be safe.

Another prison problem, insufficient nutrition, can then be solved by recycling the resulting dead inmates into a nutritious meatloaf.

Soylent Green? Soylent Great!

Artemis, what are prisons like in your country?

> Soylent Great!

Soylent Garlic.

Srinivasan talks about how there's a successful sort of health drink called Soylent, like almond milk or whatever, that's very popular with the tech crowd in SV, because they're too young to have a negative association from a silly movie fifty years ago.

You folks are always so very funny.

Let's be honest... few if any folks in the comment section actually care about safety in prisons.

They do however care about their transphobic agenda.

All arguments against having more muscular folks in traditional women's prisons would work equally well in terms of segregating prisoners by strength and weight class in general.

History tells us that many issues in the workplace were never truly addressed until women started working beside men.

For example, paternity leave for fathers has followed after pressure for maternity leave for women as an equalizing force in terms of promotional opportunities.

The reality is that we will never actually address violence in men's prisons solely on the basis of men being raped or killed.

I must logically conclude that all of this posturing in the comment section about caring about violence strikes me as an utter farce. Crid Et al. care about their beef with transsexuals... not actually about resolving violence within the prison system.

My comment should not have been met so immediately with nonsense about feeding prisoners ground up human beings and arming prisoners with guns if this discussion was actually serious.

Actually serious, Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers.

Why would we expect that? Sexoid Dismorphio Profoondus (whatever it's called) is not a prevalent psychological pattern.... There may be thousands of environmental forces, or even biological ones, that could make it happen. I can't see that one would presume it lands evenly in populations. ~ Crid at July 7, 2021 7:26 AM

You may have a point:

"According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, gender dysphoria prevalence accounts for 0.005–0.014% of the population for biological males and 0.002–0.003% for biological females."

With population split nearly evenly between men and women, it would seem that there are more men who identify as women and women who identify as men. However, not nearly in the numbers we're seeing in the men's vs. women's prison issue.

I suppose it's possible that the underlying psychological issues could drive more men to criminal activity and that could account for the difference.

I still argue that a blanket acceptance of a stated claim of gender dysphoria is too low a standard for admittance to women's exclusive spaces - i.e., prisons, changing rooms, sports teams, etc. However, some reasonable accommodation should be findable - that is, if we're all willing to work together instead of casting aspersions.

==============================

As for prisons segregated by weight classes, who would pay for such an arrangement. Incarceration of criminals already costs the US taxpayers over $80 billion a year. The prison guard's union is considered the most powerful union in the state of California.

The problem of inter-personal violence among a population already distinguished by its antisocial behavior is not one that will be easily resolved.

While giving "everyone a fighting chance" seems fair, it would also be very expensive. The solution may lie more in segregating criminals by crime type within the same institutions.

However, that may be complicated by with what crime the criminal has been charged. A criminal who committed a violent crime but plead to less-violent one so the DA could add a conviction to his/her resume would subsequently be housed with the less violent.

In addition, weight class does not correlate to a tendency toward violence. While it may give the less-violent criminal "a fighting chance," the propensity to violence is more important. As a combat veteran brought up in a discussion about self-defense, shooting someone is not easy the first time. Those not inclined to violence may find it tougher to discover within themselves enough violence to defend themselves, even where weight class is equal.

Remember Henry Hill's comments about gangsters in Goodfellas, it's not that the wise guys were bigger, faster, or stronger than those they victimized; it's that they had no built-in moral restraints; they were wiling to deal in violence. Violence, to them, was like breathing.

More guards in existing prisons may be a solution, but we'd probably run up against McNamara's Vietnam manpower problem and could end up hiring low-IQ sadists to guard the low-IQ sadists.

"All offenders entering the Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) are screened for developmental disability within 14 days of arrival." On average, Texas has found that inmates in its prisons have an IQ of 91-93, well below the societal mean. Other data indicate that the average IQ for chronic offenders is 85.

While not a direct comparative, police officers nationwide have a median IQ of 104. I could not find anything about the average IQ of corrections officers.

While IQ and intelligence in general are not indicators or drivers of anti-social behavior, they do provide a person with a greater ability to negotiate tricky and stressful situations, to deal with problems, and to develop language skills.

Why mention language skills? "Verbal IQ also correlates moderately with the ability to think abstractly. Individuals capable of abstract thinking tend to be able to see the nuances in situations and relationships. They better understand not only the simple but also the complex. They see the interconnections between their attitudes and behaviors and the consequences that flow from their beliefs and behaviors. More important, they can understand how their behaviors and attitudes affect and influence others. Criminals, research tells us, tend to be concrete in their thinking—that is, they view the world in simplistic ways, often much like that of a young child (Ellis & Walsh, 2003). They are strongly influenced by the here and now, they do not tend to make effective generalizations from one situation to the next, and they tend to be very literal in their understanding of life events.

Theodore Dalrymple found that same kind of concrete thinking and inability to generalize the future in the lower socio-economic classes with which he worked in a London hospital and in prisoners during his time as a prison doctor. He found violence to be endemic in both populations; as well as a limited ability of the denizens of both to express or grasp abstract concepts.

Sorry for the rambling post, but Artie's somewhat flippant comment about segregating the prisons by weight class got me thinking about the problems inherent in expanding prison systems and hiring guards for them; and then about why people end up committing crimes and going to prison. That speculation recalled Crid's earlier posts about finding a place in modern society for lower-IQ individuals, or paying the price if we don't.

Perhaps the solution lies not in reorganizing the penal system, but in finding that place in society for those whose lower IQs limit their employment, happiness, and role in society; those who, except for the willingness to deal in violence, would always be at the bottom.

Conan Says:

"As for prisons segregated by weight classes, who would pay for such an arrangement."

As with all problems in society, allocation of resources is determined by the priorities we set.

Either we want prisons to be places where violence is rare and it is a priority to make such a thing happen... or we do not prioritize reducing violence within the prison system.

My point is that it is irrational for folks to prioritize doing something about this:

"The state currently has 273 transfer requests..."

While simultaneously relegating violence in general within the prison system to the trash heap of public policy.

We have tens of thousands of rapes/sexual assaults that take place within the prison system each and every year... not to mention other forms of violence the prison population is subjected to.

I think putting immense focus on 273 transfer requests on the basis of prison violence is a lot like worrying about the paper cut on your finger when you've just been shot in the chest.

I think putting immense focus on 273 transfer requests on the basis of prison violence is a lot like worrying about the paper cut on your finger when you've just been shot in the chest. ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 9:46 AM

I'd argue it's entirely different. You're putting people with male genitalia in a women's prison and then wondering why the biological women incarcerated there are reporting a higher level of sexual assault. This isn't accidental or incidental. It's a deliberate act by the state that endangers these biological women.

Stopping male-on-male rape in prisons is going to require an entirely different approach. What that is, we don't seem to know. It's been debated on this and other online forums, in the halls of government, in think tanks, and in many other places with no practicable solution yet forthcoming.

Reducing transgender violence in women's prisons requires merely not putting people with male genitalia in prisons with biological women, something the state can accomplish at no additional expenses to taxpayers.

Conan,

Of course you would argue it is different... because the core issue for you isn't one of violence in the prison system.

It is your general issue with transsexuals overall as a component of society.

Just be honest in your arguments. The whole while about prison violence is not something you actually are all that concerned with.

If you were then you wouldn't be asking how on earth we can pay to do something about the tens of thousands of rapes that occur within the male prison system.

Either we care about violence within the prison system or we do not... your faux concern about transgendered folks when it comes to violence is without merit in the full context of the problem we are talking about.

Conan Says:

"Stopping male-on-male rape in prisons is going to require an entirely different approach. What that is, we don't seem to know. It's been debated on this and other online forums, in the halls of government, in think tanks, and in many other places with no practicable solution yet forthcoming."

Just as a more general point. It has been my observation that conservatives have absolutely no scarcity of solutions to problems they actually care about... and never have any solutions at all to problems they do not care about.

Ask a conservative to propose solutions to abortion and they will have a list a mile long... ask them to propose solutions to school shootings and suddenly it is all just thoughts and prayers without an actionable policy at all.

The same fits here... loads of proposals for how to handle transgendered folks... but violence within the prison system just cannot be handled despite decades of "debate".

We can always do something to try and address a problem if we actually care about it... you don't particularly care about violence within the prison system... you do care about your weird fetish about checking peoples genitals.

One you have a solution for, the other is completely impractical.

Incidentally, can you please point me to your essay on how impractical it is to try and solve immigration issues and your detailed questions about who would pay to solve it?

Once again, folks such as yourself don't concern yourselves with practicality or expense when it comes to things like immigration or boarder control... for issues such as that we get crazy proposals such 50 billion dollar walls.

No expense is too much to keep immigrants out... but it is far too expensive to do anything to safeguard the lives of American citizens within our prison system.

What country do you live in? Why are you so lonely? This is actually serious.

It is your general issue with transsexuals overall as a component of society. ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 10:40 AM

No, Artie, I have no issue with transexuals in our society, nor with making a place for them. I do have an issue with society caving to demands for exceptions that could be easily exploited by non-gender-dysphoric predators; at least doing so without putting up some guardrails. Are you really naive enough to think all 273 of those prisoners actually identify as women and would continue to do so openly if let out of prison?

And that, Artie, is what you refuse to see: that not everyone who disagrees with you on this issue is transphobic. Asking for sensible guardrails is not transphobic, especially in the wake of such exceptions having already been exploited.

==============================

Either we care about violence within the prison system or we do not.... ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 10:40 AM

I think we all want to see violence, sexual or otherwise, in the prison system eliminated. However, as I pointed out, the issue of violence among a population of people, a large portion of whom were incarcerated for violent or violent-adjacent acts, is not a simple or inexpensive problem to solve.

Governments all over the world battle with this problem. Many of the world's prisons house well over the number of prisoners for which they were designed, with more coming every day.

Pointing out one small area of this dilemma that we can solve is not indifference to the rest of it.

==============================

...when it comes to things like immigration or boarder [sic] control.... ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 10:50 AM

It's "border," Artie. A "border" is a boundary. A "boarder" is someone who rents a room, or boards a ship. Either way, I am in favor of boarder control, and border control.

No expense is too much to keep immigrants out... but it is far too expensive to do anything to safeguard the lives of American citizens within our prison system. ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 10:50 AM

Again, wrong, Artie. I've argued often on this forum in favor of legal immigration (see any of my many references to population growth and Michael Porter's The Competitive Advantage of Nations).

Many conservatives and libertarians have argued in favor of legal immigration.

It's illegal immigration that concerns them, and should concern every citizen. You're conflating the two in order to paint people who don't march in lockstep with you as racists and xenophobes - a go-to trick for leftists, standard procedure for you.

Conan Says:

"No, Artie, I have no issue with transexuals in our society, nor with making a place for them."

Great... please outline with specific details how you believe a place for them should be made.

Conan Says:

"Asking for sensible guardrails is not transphobic, especially in the wake of such exceptions having already been exploited."

I am all for "sensible guardrails" Conan.

The "sensible guardrails" to address violence within the prison system is to make the system safe in general... then no specific discriminatory provisions would deemed "sensible".

Let's be clear about something here Conan. I only ever see the following kind of talk from radical feminists when they talk about why men need to be separated from them in society in general as a form of "sensible guardrail":

"The Y chromosome confers greater muscle mass and physical aggressiveness on its possessors, so anyone who has it shouldn't be imposed on those who don't." - Rex Little at July 6, 2021 6:18 AM

That quote might as well have been lifted straight out of some screed by the likes of a feminist separatist who believes men are inherently dangerous to women and hence need to be segregated for the safety of women.

It is amazing to me how much the extreme right sounds like the extreme left when it comes to transgender folks.

I don't buy their "sensible guardrails" either because at their core they are not based on facts or reason... they are based on bias and a skewed/distorted version of reality.

We should be focusing our attention on making prisons a safe environment.

"Governments all over the world battle with this problem. Many of the world's prisons house well over the number of prisoners for which they were designed, with more coming every day."

Yes, and many of them are doing a far better job at creating a safe environment for prisoners than we are.

That is why your talk about think tanks and debates is not worth the time of day.

There are already prison models we can follow that work better and have less violence... they are in practice in other countries that have put in more time and effort to address the problem than we have.

Let's start there before we start accusing anyone and everyone with a y chromosome of posing some inherent and unavoidable danger to women.

There was a time when it was very popular to put forth similar arguments about people with darker skin tones... were those arguments indicative of bias/racism or were they just trying to propose "sensible guardrails"?

Conan Says:

"It's illegal immigration that concerns them, and should concern every citizen. You're conflating the two in order to paint people who don't march in lockstep with you as racists and xenophobes - a go-to trick for leftists, standard procedure for you."

Nonsense Conan.

The fundamental problem has always been precisely what should be considered legal versus illegal in terms of immigration.

Hiding behind the legality at any particular moment in time is just a game people play.

For example, prior to Trump rescinding DACA all of those kids were here legally.

In an instant they went from being legal immigrants to being illegal immigrants despite the face they nothing about them had actually changed.

If conservatives are for legal immigration and against illegal immigration surely they should find pulling the rug out from under someone by suddenly redefining their legal status to be a slimy political maneuver.

Those kids were following the rules set out for them to obtain legal citizenship... then suddenly they were now designated illegal immigrants and conservatives lined up to give them the boot.

By the same token, we could just sign into law that all current illegal immigrants in the boarder of the US are now full fledged citizens.

Would that solve the "illegal" immigration problem for you?... or is there something beyond the legal status that underlies your concerns regarding immigration?

If it is just legal status the democrats can solve that with the stroke of a pen.

> Let's be clear about something
> here Conan.

1. Missing comma.

2. You write like you're learning English by watching TV in a faraway land. (That line was from Starsky & Hutch.)

> not nearly in the numbers we're
> seeing in the men's vs. women's
> prison issue.

Well, the W2M's would know in a visceral way that they were likely to get their asses kicked, or am I misreading this.

> While giving "everyone a fighting
> chance" seems fair, it...

It's animal savagery, is what it is. In a better prison, the imprisoned wouldn't expect to be fighting at all, no matter how inclined by nature they were to do so. That we might be gaming the violence this way or that for expression of our petty and fleeting social theories is something for which generations to come will judge us harshly.

> Sorry for the rambling post

Never be sorry, and I agree with your conclusion, it's been a favorite recenthobby horse: America, and certainly the rest of civilization, doesn't know what to do with people who aren't bright. And the people —the whole sectors of society— we'd most expect to be working on it are disregarding the matter entirely.

> but Artie's somewhat flippant
> comment about

I can't him/her seriously, or flippantly, either.
, but Artie's somewhat flippant comment about

For example, prior to Trump rescinding DACA all of those kids were here legally. ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 1:54 PM

DACA is not the rebuttal you think it is, Artie.

Not exactly "legally." The acronym stands for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. So, the folks affected arrived here illegally, but under what Wikipedia called an "executive memorandum" any action regarding their immigration status would be deferred. Later attempts by the Obama administration to expand DACA were shot down by the states and by SCOTUS.

Like the "Dear Colleague" letter that set off a wave of sexual assault persecutions on college campuses, DACA was an attempt to govern by executive action rather than law. It wasn't even an executive order. The problem with executive action government is that it can, and likely will be, overturned arbitrarily by the next executive.

DACA was an attempt to legitimize illegal immigration, a Democratic obsession, after repeated failures to pass the DREAM Act.

By the way, Artie, the various iterations of the DREAM Act included among the sponsors, Senators Dick Durbin (D-IL), Richard Lugar (R-IN), Harry Reid (D-NV), Mel Martinez (R-FL), Patrick Leahy (D-VT), Joseph Lieberman (I-CT), Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Russ Feingold (D-WI), a pretty mixed and multi-partisan group.

========================================

It's animal savagery, is what it is. In a better prison, the imprisoned wouldn't expect to be fighting at all, no matter how inclined by nature they were to do so. That we might be gaming the violence this way or that for expression of our petty and fleeting social theories is something for which generations to come will judge us harshly. ~ Crid at July 8, 2021 8:14 PM

I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right. Being sent to prison should be a punishment, but it should not be a cage-match fight to the death, "fighting chance" or not. We separate boxers by weight class, we should not be separating prisoners that way.

========================================

Well, the W2M's would know in a visceral way that they were likely to get their asses kicked, or am I misreading this. ~ Crid at July 8, 2021 8:14 PM

No misread. That's pretty much what I was getting at. It's not as much a gender dysphoria fairness issue as it is a power issue.

The gender muscle difference is also why you're seeing so many more M2Ws seeking to join women's sports than you're seeing W2Ms seeking to join men's. It's not the numbers creating that disparity.

========================================

You write like you're learning English by watching TV in a faraway land. (That line was from Starsky & Hutch.) ~ Crid at July 8, 2021 6:03 PM

I like that. And he does.

Great... please outline with specific details how you believe a place for them should be made. ~ Artemis at July 8, 2021 1:32 PM

I've told you before, Artie, I'm not doing homework for you.

You want an outline with specific details, you come up with one - but, Artie, make it better than your usual, "if you disagree with me you're ____-phobic" nonsense, if you even can.

Conan Says:

"No, Artie, I have no issue with transexuals in our society, nor with making a place for them." - Conan the Grammarian at July 8, 2021 12:30 PM

"I've told you before, Artie, I'm not doing homework for you.

You want an outline with specific details, you come up with one - but, Artie, make it better than your usual, "if you disagree with me you're ____-phobic" nonsense, if you even can." - Conan the Grammarian at July 9, 2021 8:01 AM

Conan... when you make a claim about your personal views and someone asks you to expand upon the details of that claim... that isn't then requesting you to do "homework".

No one can explain the details of your perspective except for you.

Furthermore, it is completely fair and reasonable for me to request those details instead of simply accepting your claims without detail or scrutiny.

When you say that you personally have no issues making a place for transgendered folks in society... and someone asks you for details... and you proceed to run and hide under the covers it demonstrates your lack of seriousness on the topic at hand.

Clearly you haven't really given this any thought at all beyond the following statements on the subject we have had before:

1 - You don't want transgendered folks choosing the bathroom they use

2 - You don't want transgendered folks playing in sports that match their gender expression

3 - You don't want transgendered folks being assigned to prisons that match their gender expression

In each and every instance you describe your objections as "sensible"... but declare that you are open to creating a space for these folks.

You have yet to outline what your own vision for that that space might look like... and call it doing "homework" to go to the effort of detailing your own personal views.

As per usual... you are all smoke and no fire.

Just empty rhetoric.

"If we aren't going to do more to prevent violence in prisons then the least we can do is provide everyone a fighting chance, no?"
Artemis at July 7, 2021 7:51 PM

Artemis (Speak of the Devil!), Good to hear from you again. Not for your interpretation of your ideas, which is rubbish; but for what they suggest. Take this one about competitive weight classes for prison rape.
Let's assume no woman wants to be locked in with a 180 lb. felon who has the urges and the hard-on of an average 25 year-old. Transphobia or no, that's a given. So, under your plan, she can game the system by losing weight. (Get out of that lazy fat-acceptance mindset, girl) Then she'll start to feel better about herself and may even end up being a wholesome, productive member of society. It is gold. You think of the best incentives. Are you sure you're not an R? Because this has capitalist potential written all over it.

Conan,

Also... just because I think it is funny.

You spent 5 paragraphs bloviating about DACA and even went to the trouble of listing members of Congress who supported the DREAM act... but couldn't spare a single sentence describing your own perspective on what inclusion for transgendered folks in society might look like.

You know as well as I do that when you feel like you have something to say in support of your position you will go on and on and on ad nauseam (even when your points are irrational or happen to be unsupported by the facts).

The only logical conclusion to draw at this point is that when you say that you "have no issue with transexuals in our society, nor with making a place for them."

That is meant only in the most abstract way possible... you have very specific and actionable objections for their inclusion in various aspects of society... but not one example of something specific you would do to make a place for them.

When I asked you to expand upon your views that wasn't a gotcha question... and yet you managed to somehow turn it into one by adamantly refusing to provide even one example of how you think transgendered folks might belong.

Your fundamental problem here Conan is not that you might be transphobic... it is that your rhetoric is indistinguishable from someone who was.

That would be a cause for alarm for anyone with a consistent sense of ethics or morality. You need not worry though as your "principles" are about as sturdy as boiled spaghetti.

I couldn't sleep if I made such a claim and had no perspective to offer when asked... but you'll sleep just fine... you know you are just fine making a space for transgendered folks in society... you just cannot explain how to anyone.

Spiderfall,

The weight class idea wasn't really my own.

It was a logical extension of the ideas presented here that stated that it was unacceptable to place folks in the same prison when some were physically outmatched by others.

This is a matter of logical consistency.

If you object to one version of the argument then you object to both... if you accept one version then you accept both.

Failure to be able to do this implies that there is something else driving your conclusion than the argument that was presented.

Some folks have difficulty with abstract thinking I guess.

You spent 5 paragraphs bloviating about DACA and even went to the trouble of listing members of Congress who supported the DREAM act... but couldn't spare a single sentence describing your own perspective on what inclusion for transgendered folks in society might look like. ~ Artemis at July 9, 2021 8:49 AM

Bloviating? That word does not mean what you think it does.

And, Artie, for someone serious, I could easily, and happily have this discussion. You are not serious. I won't spare one pixel to accede to your petulant demands and walk into one of your little gotcha traps.

...that wasn't a gotcha question.... ~ Artemis at July 9, 2021 8:49 AM

Every question or request with you is a "gotcha." It's how you operate. As several others here, even our gracious hostess herself, have pointed out, you are not an honest debater; you never have been.

Your fundamental problem here Conan is not that you might be transphobic... it is that your rhetoric is indistinguishable from someone who was. ~ Artemis at July 9, 2021 8:49 AM

Was? Verb tense, Artie.

Only in your progressive-drone mind is my rhetoric indistinguishable - mostly because your concrete thinking cannot process nuance. You see only "for" or "against."

Also, you're missing several commas in that sentence.

Have a nice day, Artie.

Indeed… Reruns of "Falcon Crest" (CBS-TV, 1981-1990), no matter how inexpensively acquired by a distant national (and impoverished) broadcast network, are not the tool by which to master dialectic fluency in Western civ.

Conan Says:

"And, Artie, for someone serious, I could easily, and happily have this discussion. You are not serious. I won't spare one pixel to accede to your petulant demands and walk into one of your little gotcha traps."

Asking for you to expand upon your perspective isn't a "gotcha trap".

As you have demonstrated over the years, if you believe you have a point to make in support of your position you have no issues composing entire essays on the topic (despite that fact that generally you don't end up actually saying anything of substance).

On the topic of how exactly you envision making a space for transgendered folks you apparently have nothing to offer.

All we get is crickets... and it's time for you to run away.

Interestingly, I was watching a video the other day presented by an expert on narcissism.

One thing they noted is that when a person who has NPD suffers a so-called narcissistic injury one strategy they employ to try and save face and mollify their injured ego is to become extremely focused on things like the style of presentation looking for any possible flaw they can latch onto to avoid the sad reality that they might be wrong.

You and Crid do this very often… and as others have pointed one on several occasions Crid displays quite the collection of narcissistic traits. This isn’t really a habit you should strive to emulate… it only demonstrates your own fragility and weakness.

Let's revisit my so-called "petulant demand", shall we:

"Great... please outline with specific details how you believe a place for them should be made." - Artemis at July 8, 2021 1:32 PM

I was polite and I asked you to explain your perspective in detail.

You only view that as a "gotcha" because you don't actually have a perspective to share that would demonstrate your stated tolerance for transgendered folks.

Incidentally, you suggested that if I believed all 273 of those prisoners "actually identify as women and would continue to do so openly if let out of prison" that in some sense I would be naive.

At the same time you expect me to just take you at your word that you are for promoting transgendered inclusion in society as you adamantly refuse to provide even one specific example of what that might look like.

Just believing you without evidence would be the behavior of a naive person.

At the end of the day your problem has always been and always will be that you cannot handle your perspective being challenged in an intellectual way.

All I'm asking for is for you to explain your perspective... and that is simply too much for you to handle.

I'd be happy to "process nuance"... you just never offer nuance... you simply claim you have a nuanced perspective and then refuse to specify what your perspective actually is.

We should all just trust that it is nuanced and that we should all buy into your conclusions as being "sensible" when you haven't done the work.

You are only capable of preaching to the choir Conan... your rhetoric is utterly unconvincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Actually serious, Orion. Live and let live.

Crid,

Where exactly do you suppose a 140 pound transgendered person with female gender expression should be incarcerated if they are found guilty of a crime?

If your answer is in a traditional male prison then I am not convinced you are the least bit concerned about the potential for violence within the prison system at all.

Such an individual would likely be subjected to an enormous amount of physical abuse for the entirely of their incarceration... which isn't an approved part of their sentencing.

These folks need to feel safe in prison as well, and if all you can do is throw your hands up in the air and talk about how "strong" they are and that they have a y chromosome so they present a unique and unavoidable danger to women... then I am sorry to say that you've missed the plot.

I'm concerned about the well fare of all people... you on the other hand seem to have concern for only some people.

*welfare

Folks with grammar pedantry syndrome really are the worst...

People who pretend to be American are worst.

Crid,

Watch this... it is about you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMkrosLHIEs

SICK BURN!

I didn't watch it... Your thoughts and feelings aren't of interest. The only thing to care about is the local forces which make you such a goofy presence in our (remote) lives.

Group home?

Crid,

You really should take the time to watch it.

It is a mental health professional explaining the kinds of things people who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder do when they feel threatened.

The video might as well be a personalized description of your behavior.

I'm not the first one to notice that there is something off about you... in fact many others have called you a narcissist before... I didn't know enough about the disorder at the time to really have an opinion.

That being said, I ran across that video and it became clear they were correct and you are suffering from a personality disorder.

I'm guessing you've heard from others in your real life that you are self-obsessed and dismissive of perspectives you do not agree with.

The sad thing is apparently that folks who suffer from NPD almost never seek mental help because they view everyone else as the problem.

Crid Says:

"Your thoughts and feelings aren't of interest."

Classic narcissist...

JD and others had you figured out long ago.

Your behavior is known as "weaponized autism." Raised in a wheelchair?

Crid,

You aren't helping your case.

This is just a manifestation of narcissistic rage. You feel threatened so you just toss out made up aspersions to try and regain status.

Out of curiosity, during your divorce did topics such as you being self-absorbed, controlling, and unable to properly regulate your emotions come up?

I believe I am starting to get an understanding of precisely why you are angry and alone.

Chinese? Brazilian?

Crid,

We all get it already... you desperately want to be better than some group of people based on little more than nationality.

There is a word for people who think that way.

You're not one of us, but desperate to be regarded as worthy. We get it! America's great, it really, really is.

It's a shame, for you, that your heritage —whatever it might be— is something from which you can't summon pride and insights.

In all major religions save Islam, it's a sin to deny one's faith. Nationalism brings no such enjoinment… But the enrichment from our birthright to liberty is so plainly apparent that injunctions are unnecessary. Of course you want in.

Good luck over there!

Crid,

I am glad that you recognize that you are in fact espousing nationalistic views.

You are correct that I am not a nationalist... hence I am not one of you.

“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.” - Sydney J. Harris

Your problem will always be that you will find my views objectionable because as a patriot of my country I am willing to criticize it and hold it to account... because I love it and want it to improve.

You follow little more than a zealous and toxic ideology... and then erroneously call it love for country.

Orion, your "views" are a bogus, thus irrelevant. It's dishonest participation that's a problem, not foreign participation.

Crid,

What exactly about you is honest?

There is nothing about you that is the least bit genuine.

Narcissists such as yourself are known to have antipathy when it comes to true authenticity.

The reality is that my honestly and consistency make you uneasy in your own skin... this isn't something I need to worry about.

Your mental health issues are not an issue I am responsible for.

Either you're visiting the blog to practice English for some sort of professional purpose, which would merely be pathetic… Or you're doing it for some sort of personal neediness, which would be even more pathetic. You struggle so desperately to find voltage in communication with everyday Americans, but you have no principles, so it's boring for us. You'll say anything, and often do.

I think you're disabled and living in a group home in China, where no one takes you seriously, and where nobody's allowed to have their own political opinions anyway.

Crid,

Nothing you are saying to me is the least bit interesting or unique.

This is just what you do because you lack the psychological fortitude to handle the existence of people whose views differ from your own.

This is you from 2008:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/09/07/chattel_prod.html

"Seriously, are Julianna, Wolfboy, Momof3 and Katie Bennett and Lovelysoul the same person?

They're odorless and colorless. There may be some others who's signatures don't come to mind. (Don't take this personally if you're real.) They have details in their lives the way a politician has talking points. Sometimes they write long and sometimes they write short it's always the same voice." - Crid [cridcridatgmail] at September 7, 2008 10:28 AM

The sad reality is that each and every time you have encountered someone or a group of people who see things differently than you do, your go to mental remedy is to pretend they do not exist.

Nothing about your psychopathy is particularly special either... people who suffer from NPD need to pretend that folks who disagree with them aren't real or that there is something fundamentally wrong with them such that they can be dismissed without consideration.

You are a broken and weak man and I feel sorry for you.

And yet you always come back.

Crid,

Well I'm certainly not going to let an insecure and mentally unwell individual such as yourself have any input into how I operate on the internet.

Your mental health issues really aren't my problem.

I don't comment here for you... but I get it... as a narcissist it simply doesn't compute for you that other people make choices without taking you into consideration.

The people who comment here aren't here for your entertainment... they are here for their entertainment.

The word "actually" appears four times at July 7, 2021 7:51 PM

If we're being "actually serious," no one has ever taken me as seriously, or studied me as closely, as you have.

It's difficult to imagine why. But yeah, Americans are enchanting.

Crid,

There is nothing about you that is particularly complicated about you that requires detailed study.

If I were on the subway and observed someone bobbing their head back and forth while muttering incoherently to themselves... it wouldn't require close study to conclude that something was wrong with them.

The same applies to you. You obviously suffer from a mental disorder... it isn't subtle and I am hardly the first to mention this to you.

That being said, people do have a propensity to pay extra attention to train wrecks and disasters. The same is true for you. In my day to day life I am surrounded by intelligent and rational people... from that perspective you are an oddity.

> There is nothing about you that
> is particularly complicated about
> you that requires detailed study.

Kid/Girl/Bro, you've read everything I've ever written here... You've made deep dives into comments from decades ago.

You're smitten!

I understand.

Crid Says:

"You've made deep dives into comments from decades ago."

It's called a search algorithm.

I can find pretty much anything anyone has posted on this site or any other site in seconds and with little effort.

That you might not know how to do this doesn't make it a challenge for those of us who do.

For example... I just did a search for fun involving the terms Radwaste and idiot. Here is a result from 2006:

"Radwaste your an idiot." - lujlp at September 24, 2006 10:58 PM

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2006/09/sure-you-can-ge-1.html

I certainly didn't memorize the every comment that has ever been made on this blog over 15 years.

The point being that you don't understand something so you have concluded it requires special and intense effort. The reality is that it requires little to no effort on my part at all.

Finding quotes of you dismissing people over the years as fake or uninteresting is practically effortless.

> It's called a search algorithm.

No matter what you say about the others, I'll always know that you only have eyes for me.

It's called LOVE, Orion.

Crid,

One need only look at this thread to figure out the direction of interest.

I do not enter into conversations seeking to chat with you.

Then you jump in and start looking for typos to get my attention.

Your behavior is completely consistent with NPD... you simply lack the mental capacity to view life events as having nothing to do with you.

In fact, we can put this to the test. Just stop trying to get my attention and see if I ever seek you out on my own.

Crid,

Just to try and put things into perspective for you.

If you drove over to my house and knocked on my door... and I proceeded to open the door and tell you to get lost.

The fact that I opened the door would not indicate that I wanted you there.

You're just a creepy dude who can't handle rejection, refuses to go away... but insists that the fact that the girl isn't completely rude means she wants him.

Keep in mind that I know you aren't going to understand. Your mental condition makes it impossible for you to understand.

Don't deny what the voices in your head are telling you.

Crid,

I think you are projecting again:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2018/03/linkersectional.html

"I do have to say thank God Crid. Finally, you are worried about something other than what Trump eats. You finally found a valid policy issue. I mean you are still having arguments with the voices in your head and have no clue who you are talking to." - Ben at March 22, 2018 7:46 PM

Followed by:

"Looking back, you are easily the #1 commenter on this blog, which suggests you live a life unfulfilled in other ways. Put the cat down and go kiss one of those chicks who "dig" you. Several times. Take an hour off." - Radwaste at March 23, 2018 6:04 AM

and:

"How are you not a troll again Crid? 'I don't think you're very smart' 'Ever kissed a girl' yada yada." - Ben at March 23, 2018 7:05 AM

You are pretty much universally regarded as a self-absorbed moron without a life.

You get along fine with Conan... but if he were to ever challenge your ideas you'd jump into a narcissistic rage with him as well I am sure.

The only constant here Crid is that you are utterly incapable of conversing with people who have different ideas than you do (at the same time, Ben and Radwaste are not particularly polite in general, but that doesn't alter how you handle things).

Chinese, right? SOME kind of oppressive culture. And it's really personal. So I think commie Chinese, or Russian or something, and really desperate for stimulation, so I think in a group home or care institution.

Crid,

We've already been over this once already in this conversation... you're just a broken record at this point:

"We all get it already... you desperately want to be better than some group of people based on little more than nationality.

There is a word for people who think that way." - Artemis at July 11, 2021 2:33 AM

That you keep harping on countries of origin as if it is some feather in your cap demonstrates that you've accomplished nothing of value in life.

People who have accomplished things talk about those accomplishments... apparently the most impressive thing you've managed to do is be born... it's all been downhill for you since then I suppose.

I denigrate you for pretending to be an English-speaking American.

Crid,

Well considering it's the only language I am fluent in I suppose you are just going to have to learn how to cope.

Consider it an exercise in your own personal growth.

You're not fluent.

Interestingly, I was watching a video the other day presented by an expert on narcissism. ~ Artemis at July 9, 2021 10:58 AM

Really? An expert? Well, that settles it, I guess.

Or does it? Let's examine your so-called "expert."

He's Dr. Todd Grande. Dr. Grande holds a Master of Science degree in Community Counseling from Wilmington University and a Ph.D. in Counselor Education and Supervision from Regent University.

Regent University? Hmm. What's that? Oh yeah. That's the "academic institution" originally founded by Pat Robertson as the Christian Broadcast Network University.

Tell me, Artie, is that one of those "real" universities at which you're qualified to teach graduate classes?

According to College Factual, "Regent University is ranked #29 out of #48 in Virginia for quality and #23 out of #41 for Virginia value. This means it is below average in quality with a price that reflects that in the state."

Dr. Grande is not a licensed psychologist, nor is he a licensed psychiatrist. Grande is, however, licensed by the state of Delaware as a mental health counselor.

Dr. Grande likes to publicly diagnose celebrities from a distance on his YouTube channel - an ethical no-no for real psychologists and psychiatrists, but a real audience-getter for hustlers and charlatans.

Dr. Grande is a hustler and a charlatan. That's your "expert."

Coney 🤣 👍 👍

Orion might have known better if he/she were American....

Conan,

What on earth are you doing back here anyway?

Wasn't this you before:

"Also, you're missing several commas in that sentence.

Have a nice day, Artie." - Conan the Grammarian at July 9, 2021 9:58 AM

You ran away when I asked for you to explain how you envision making a space in society for transgendered folks.

Incidentally Conan... you keep doing the very things that are expressed in the video for what narcissists will do to pretend they are more intelligent than they are.

You don't actually have to do any of these things by the way... it is just evidence that you are insecure.

As a matter of fact, the games you are playing now with ranking universities and trying to say that his Ph.D. in a field of mental health isn't sufficient to qualify him to express an expert opinion in the field of mental health is the kind of thing he covers in his video.

As per usual your arguments are mostly illogical and unpersuasive... I'll dissect them in a follow up post to highlight the problems.

Conan Says:

"According to College Factual, "Regent University is ranked #29 out of #48 in Virginia for quality and #23 out of #41 for Virginia value. This means it is below average in quality with a price that reflects that in the state.""

Okay... first let's talk a little bit about what above and below average actually mean.

We can of course be extremely literal and just say that anything ranked 1-24 is "above average" and anything ranked 25-48 is "below average"... and while that is strictly true it is also essentially useless.

Out of 48 institutions there is no average university because none of them land exactly in the middle... the average university according to your methodology would be ranked #24.5... which of course does not exist.

Furthermore you make no useful distinctions between rank #1 and #24 or between rank #25 and #48.

People with a deeper understanding of statistics and distributions don't talk this way. Only very strange people (or someone with an agenda) would describe a 5'10'' man as "above average height"... average male height is ~5'9'' so while this description would be strictly true, don't be surprised if people look at you strangely for making such an unusual claim.

People who actually understand statistics talk about distributions in a different way that is actually more natural. Average spans a range around the mean... above/below average would be defined values a standard deviation away or defined by quantiles.

Don't be the pedantic moron with a 101 IQ who insists that they have "above average intelligence"... such a person would only look foolish to folks smarter than they are.

So let's be more realistic... he got is degree from a pretty average institution for Virginia... not necessarily impressive, but I'm also not prepared to toss out the degrees of 50% of all the universities in Virginia either... that seems quite extreme and irrational.

As for my own background... no matter how snobbish you might be inclined to be, you'd have a very difficult time tossing my degree in the trash without tossing out the degrees of pretty much everyone in the country.

So your objection to his university fails.

As for this part:

"Dr. Grande is not a licensed psychologist, nor is he a licensed psychiatrist. Grande is, however, licensed by the state of Delaware as a mental health counselor."

He is either qualified to deal with diagnostics as it pertains to mental health issues or he isn't... that other folks might have more expertise that he does isn't really an issue here.

One might as well claim that a physical therapist isn't qualified to diagnose physical abnormalities because they didn't go to medical school. Physical therapists are in fact able to diagnose issues pertaining to lack of mobility and loss of function even if there are folks even *more* qualified in those areas. The same goes for nurse practitioners and MD's.

I don't dispute that there are others with greater expertise and specialization... that doesn't invalidate his professional expertise while he is staying within his lane.

"Dr. Grande likes to publicly diagnose celebrities from a distance on his YouTube channel - an ethical no-no for real psychologists and psychiatrists, but a real audience-getter for hustlers and charlatans."

"Dr. Grande likes to publicly diagnose celebrities from a distance on his YouTube channel - an ethical no-no for real psychologists and psychiatrists, but a real audience-getter for hustlers and charlatans."

Aren't you the same guy who likes to publicly diagnose Biden with dementia?

You defended that by essentially saying that you are just one of the masses so you can say whatever you want about the medical condition of public figures.

Now this is where you've gotten yourself into a logical knot because you are trying to have it both ways.

On the one hand you are asserting that Dr. Grande isn't actually a mental health expert so we should not consider his opinions on mental health issues... yet he also is a "hustler and charlatan" for expressing his views on public figures... something you have also done and have defended on multiple occasions.

So here is the deal... we have the following ways out of this illogical mess:

1 - You admit that you are also a "hustler and charlatan" for diagnosing public figures with mental conditions.

2 - You acknowledge that Dr. Grande is in fact a mental health expert and therefore you find his public statements about the mental health of public figures to be disturbing.

3 - You stick to your guns that Dr. Grande isn't actually a mental health expert and is therefore free to discuss the mental health condition of public figures in exactly the same way you are.

Those are your only logically consistent options.

You ran away when I asked for you to explain how you envision making a space in society for transgendered folks. ~ Artemis at July 13, 2021 2:41 PM

No, Artie. I did not "run away." I refused to do the homework you think you have the authority to assign and ignored you.

What am I doing back here. I scrolled through Amy's threads during a lull in my day and found that some 30+ comments had been added to this thread since I left. I had a few minutes so I stared reading them and found you calling me a narcissist, using the equivalent of Dr. Laura as an "expert." So, I demonstrated how weak your allegation is by showing you how weak the credentials of your "expert" are.

Seriously, dude, you really shouldn't look to YouTube for mental health advice or expertise.

...you keep doing the very things that are expressed in the video for what narcissists will do to pretend they are more intelligent than they are. ~ Artemis at July 13, 2021 2:41 PM

You mean that weak-sauce video with the YouTube huckster?

Artie, I'm not gonna take what a YouTube huckster with questionable ethics and practices says as deep psychological insights no matter how much or how adamantly you claim that he's describing me.

Nor am I looking to you for mental health advice or expertise, especially now that I know how low your bar to describe someone as an "expert" is set.

As a matter of fact, the games you are playing now with ranking universities and trying to say that his Ph.D. in a field of mental health isn't sufficient to qualify him to express an expert opinion in the field of mental health is the kind of thing he covers in his video. ~ Artemis at July 13, 2021 2:41 PM

So, you're saying that Regent is one of those "real universities" at which you're qualified to teach graduate classes.

Good to know you think so highly of Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network University.

As for Grande's "Ph.D. in a field of mental health," if you'd described him as a mental health professional, we would not be having this conversation. But you just had to try and up-credential your little insult by exaggerating Dr. Grande into an "expert on narcissism."

You see, Artie, your own narcissism requires that your evidence is irrefutable because it's presented by "experts" while everyone else's is presented by people "not even qualified to make a video for fake 'universities' like PragerU."

Conan Says:

"No, Artie. I did not "run away." I refused to do the homework you think you have the authority to assign and ignored you."

No... you ran away... let's refresh your memory:

"Great... please outline with specific details how you believe a place for them should be made." - Artemis at July 8, 2021 1:32 PM

No one was asserting any "authority to assign" anything to you.

I made a polite request for you to expand upon your claim about your own personal beliefs.

There is no "homework" I can possibly to to get insight into the undisclosed thoughts within your head.

You ran away... plain and simple.

Conan Says:

"Artie, I'm not gonna take what a YouTube huckster with questionable ethics and practices says as deep psychological insights no matter how much or how adamantly you claim that he's describing me."

You're just offended that the shoes fits.

You've already outed yourself as a huckster by your own standard Conan... you're just a blog commenter diagnosing politicians with mental health conditions.

What were your qualifications to do that again?... that's right... none.

You have no principles Conan, we've established that about 100 times already.

You're just pissed that mental health professionals classify your consistently demonstrated behavior as unhealthy and consistent with a mental disorder.

That isn't my problem... that's just something you need to come to terms with.

"So, you're saying that Regent is one of those "real universities" at which you're qualified to teach graduate classes."

I'm qualified to teach graduate courses in my field of expertise at any university Conan... that includes places like Princeton all the way down the line.

What is really amazing here is that it really seems like Regent University is dead in the middle of the national rankings at College Factual. As per usual you don't analyze things in an honest fashion. Let's look at this in an honest way:

1 - It is ranked 856 out of 1715 Nationwide
2 - It is ranked 150 out of 434 for its region (Southeast)
3 - It is ranked 29 out of 48 for Virginia

For the region is is "above average" by your own criteria... why just toss that in the trash like it is meaningless?

Furthermore, in the national rankings 856/1715 = 0.499125... it is less than a tenth of a percent of being smack in the middle.

This university is about as middle of the road and average as you get and yet you want to define it as "fake" in some sense... you keep using the word "real" as if it isn't an actual university that gives degrees to people.

"fake 'universities' like PragerU."

PragerU actually is a fake university Conan... it is a media company... not a university. It doesn't hold classes and doesn't confer degrees on anyone because it isn't accredited by any recognized authority.

The same way "Trump University" wasn't a real university.

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't really know what a university is.

Do you have a degree of any kind?... have you ever attended classes on a college campus anywhere?

"As for Grande's "Ph.D. in a field of mental health," if you'd described him as a mental health professional, we would not be having this conversation. But you just had to try and up-credential your little insult by exaggerating Dr. Grande into an "expert on narcissism.""

Nonsense Conan... mental health professionals are experts on narcissism. You are acting like I called him a narcissism specialist, which of course I didn't... he has very general expertise in the field of mental health and hence has an expert opinion regarding narcissism.

You're just pissed off because you watched the video and saw that his description of behaviors associated with NPD matched things you've been doing for years.

Your fragile ego is not my concern.

PragerU actually is a fake university Conan... it is a media company... not a university. It doesn't hold classes and doesn't confer degrees on anyone because it isn't accredited by any recognized authority.

Yes, Artie. I was quoting you in that sentence. Your arrogance presumed that only you are qualified to opine on issues and that I am "not even qualified to make a video for fake 'universities' like PragerU." That was right after you claimed you were qualified to teach at a "real university" and that I was not qualified to attend any class that you taught.

You claim to have a PhD, but write at fourth-grade level. You claim to be a native-born American, but use Britishisms like "analyse" and "unproper." You use clunky constructions like "as a patriot of my country."

If you were honest, you would understand why people on this forum question your claims. You are not an honest person, Artie.

Before you add "xenophobe" to your other wild aspersions on my character, your origin, ethnicity, and current nationality don't matter to me. I may speculate on them, but it's your duplicity and dishonesty that truly irk me.

Do you have a degree of any kind?... have you ever attended classes on a college campus anywhere?

Would that matter? You're always saying that credentials are not important - except when you can use yours to put down someone else.

This university is about as middle of the road and average as you get and yet you want to define it as "fake" in some sense... you keep using the word "real" as if it isn't an actual university that gives degrees to people.

I keep using the word, "real" when referring to Regent because you used it when describing your own education credentials in an effort to cast aspersions at me.

I am not describing Regent as a fake university, but I am questioning whether the education one gets at an institution that started out as the Christian Broadcasting Network University is serious enough to overcome the fact that one dispenses advice and expertise over a YouTube channel - including distance diagnosing the mental health of celebrities, an act we've already covered in another thread as unethical for a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

As for Regent University's ranking, I quoted the CollegeFactual summary when I pointed out it was ranked 29 out of 48 in Virginia and was below average in that state. Hence the quotation marks I used, Artie.

Oh, and Artie, being ranked 856 out of 1715 is still below average, even if only slightly.

By the away, Artie, Regent's US News Overall Score is "Bottom 25%."

You have no principles Conan, we've established that about 100 times already.

We've established nothing of the sort. You've cast aspersions and then acted as if your aspersion has been proven factual, simply because you cast it.

Your standards, Artie, fluctuate with the convenience of whatever suits your argument at the time. If Dr. Grande's YouTube video were not useful to you, but instead used against you, you'd decry his lack of serious credentials and ethics. However, since you found it useful, you defend it.

Without the usefulness of Dr. Grande's video to you, you'd never so vigorously defend a university that was founded by Pat Robertson as the Christian Broadcasting Network University.

You've already outed yourself as a huckster by your own standard Conan... you're just a blog commenter diagnosing politicians with mental health conditions.

As I told you before when you tried this tack, I'm not a licensed mental health professional and am not bound by an ethics requirement to avoid diagnosing Joe Biden as showing signs of dementia without examining him. What's more, I'm not falsely presenting myself as someone with credentials to make such a diagnosis. Ergo, no hucksterism or ethics violation.

Conan,

You really have gone way off the rails again and do not seem to be self-aware enough to recognize how unhealthy and pathological your behavior is.

Let’s try and take this one step at a time.

“You claim to have a PhD, but write at fourth-grade level.”

We’ve been over this already Conan, but when I identified the source of your silly “fourth-grade level” claim it became abundantly obvious that you either didn’t really understand the tool you were using or that you were just being dishonest.

The analysis tool you were feeding text into does not identify the writing aptitude of the author… instead, it determines whether or not someone of a particular age bracket could be expected to understand the text.

These are not the same things and I have explained this to you before. I am also capable of writing birthday cards that are comprehensible to a 6-year-old… that doesn’t mean I write at a first-grade level. That you cannot seem to grasp this simple concept is rather disturbing.

It would be obnoxious for me to write each and every blog post here as if I were authoring a manuscript for professional publication. I am capable at writing in a manner that is accessible to a wide range of readers… this is what we should expect from a mature adult who isn’t out to prove anything.

That you are under the impression that folks posting on a blog can and should write at the peak of their ability on all occasions is a silly expectation that you never live up to… many of your posts are written in a manner that is understandable to a fourth grader as well and this is as it should be.

There simply is no reason to complicate a discussion here beyond what is necessary. It is also important to know one’s audience and their comprehension level relating to a given topic.

Just to help you understand further… professional scientists often create presentations suitable for younger audiences as part of community outreach. It would be silly for you to attend such a presentation and then declare that the presenter only knows how to talk at a level suitable for children.

You seriously do not understand this concept?

“You claim to be a native-born American, but use Britishisms like "analyse" and "unproper."

Yeah… you’re going to have to help me out here because generally speaking I would use the words “analyze” and “improper”. If I’ve used “analyse” or “unproper” it’s just a mistake.

This really is the crux of the issue though Conan. People who suffer from NPD see any mistakes they make personally and just simple errors… but they see errors other people make as indicative of something more, something deeper… they see it as a deficiency or a character flaw.

I’ve pointed this out to you before and you’ve actually tried to defend your silly position. You know you make many errors in typing here, and I generally ignore them unless you are behaving inappropriately. You have some bizarre that anyone with a Ph.D. has developed “muscle memory” that makes them immune to typographical errors… I hate to break it to you, but people who earn advanced degrees are still human beings… sometimes I even bite the inside of my mouth if I am chewing too fast or even stumble… where was this mystical “muscle memory” in those cases to prevent injury?... I’ve certainly been eating and walking far longer than I have been a professional scientist.

“Before you add "xenophobe" to your other wild aspersions on my character, your origin, ethnicity, and current nationality don't matter to me. I may speculate on them, but it's your duplicity and dishonesty that truly irk me.”

Fuck off with this nonsense Conan. I am neither duplicitous or dishonest. This is pure projection on your part.

Just look above at your continual dishonest “fourth-grade level” nonsense. I’ve debunked this for you long ago and you likely knew fully well your claim wasn’t justified… but you do these things any way because you are so terribly thin skinned.

You cannot handle intellectual challenge or criticism of your ideas… that has been and always will be your problem. Whenever anyone challenges your ideas in an intellectually credible way you instantly resort to insults and denigration… that’s a pathological defense mechanism Conan. Healthy people do not communicate that way.

“Would that matter? You're always saying that credentials are not important - except when you can use yours to put down someone else.”

I stand by that Conan… which is why I don’t go around rubbing my accomplishments in other peoples faces. Let’s remember that you’re the one constantly trying to disregard folks on the basis of their credentials… you’ve got beef with Jill Biden because you don’t like her thesis… you’ve got beef with Todd Grande because you think his very average university isn’t good enough to classify him as an expert in psychological disorders despite the fact that is his field.

The point isn’t for me to put you down, but rather to get an idea if you even meet your own standards. As far as I can tell you do not appear to have a good grasp on how universities function… especially not at the graduate level. My question is about assessing your own philosophical consistency, that is something I am very comfortable judging you on.

“I am not describing Regent as a fake university, but I am questioning whether the education one gets at an institution that started out as the Christian Broadcasting Network University is serious enough to overcome the fact that one dispenses advice and expertise over a YouTube channel - including distance diagnosing the mental health of celebrities, an act we've already covered in another thread as unethical for a psychologist or a psychiatrist.”

Yeah… so, I’ve looked into this claim of yours because I am not exactly fond of folks diagnosing others when they aren’t their patients either. As it turns out your claim isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. He runs a channel for the purpose of mental health education and he accepts questions from his audience for educational purposes. Apparently sometimes people will ask him about famous people to get a deeper understanding of what might be going on. Let’s take Trump for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY16OQY21DE

Please note that at the very beginning of the video he provides a reminder that he is *NOT* diagnosing anyone but is rather speculating on what might be at play from a mental health perspective given a similar set of situations. He later explicitly states that only a clinician treating Trump would be qualified to make a diagnosis of his mental state.

Just because someone is a mental health professional it does not and should not prevent them from talking about hypothetical scenarios inspired by observed events… as a result, your claim that he is diagnosing the mental health condition of celebrities from long distance appears to be erroneous.

“Oh, and Artie, being ranked 856 out of 1715 is still below average, even if only slightly.”

Good grief… I just explained this to you. When we talk about distributions, the term average has some kind of range associated with it. Aren’t you the guy criticizing my understanding of the English language?... the way you are using the word average in this context one might presume you’ve never held a conversation before.

In your word everything is either above or below average unless it is precisely at the mean. Do yourself a favor and look up the average weight for men and women… do you think you are going to get one number or a range of values?

I fully agree that 856 is in the bottom half of a list of 1715… that being said, if you want to absolutely insist that it is “below average” then you need to do the additional work of attaching error bars to the measurement such that we can be confident that the 856 ranking is statistically different than the 859 ranking. I don’t believe for one moment that the error in these measurements is below +/- 4 when we are talking about the very middle of the group… and you shouldn’t believe it either.

It seems to me that you really do want to be the guy with a 101 IQ who goes around telling everyone they have “above average intelligence” … the reality is that average in this context is defined by 1 sigma, which places the average range between 85 and 115.

He went to a very middle of the distribution institution… I’m not saying I’m terribly impressed by that or anything, but not everyone attends Oxford, Harvard, or Stanford… we will always have a middle of the distribution and you’ve presented no evidence that his university isn’t deserving of accreditation.

“Your standards, Artie, fluctuate with the convenience of whatever suits your argument at the time. If Dr. Grande's YouTube video were not useful to you, but instead used against you, you'd decry his lack of serious credentials and ethics. However, since you found it useful, you defend it.”

You’re projecting again Conan, that’s your schtick. All I am saying is that your behavior is consistent with the behaviors outlined by a mental health professional for how narcissists operate.

If you don’t like that this is the case you can always change… unless of course you feel compelled to act this way… in which case you might have a problem.

“Without the usefulness of Dr. Grande's video to you, you'd never so vigorously defend a university that was founded by Pat Robertson as the Christian Broadcasting Network University.”

I would hardly call my defense “vigorous”… that being said what you are asking me to do is commit the genetic fallacy.

The origin of the institution isn’t how one judges whether or not it is suitable as an educational environment ~50 years later. Tell me something about how the university operates today that would justify treating all of their degrees as worthless… if you cannot do that then you are out of luck.

“I'm not a licensed mental health professional and am not bound by an ethics requirement to avoid diagnosing Joe Biden as showing signs of dementia without examining him.”

Great… and Dr. Grande isn’t diagnosing anyone in his videos, he makes that abundantly clear through his explicit statements. Now that alone wouldn’t be enough as it wouldn’t be exculpatory for someone to just say they aren’t murdering you as they stab you to death. However, what he is clearly doing is creating hypotheticals using observed behaviors as inspiration and then discussing various possibilities… which is precisely the kind of thing that would take place in a course dedicated to helping people understand mental health issues.

Maybe it walks a line you aren’t completely comfortable with and that is fair… I’m still a bit on the fence on how I feel about it and need to watch more to get a better idea of my thoughts, but for now at least it doesn’t appear as if he has violated any professional ethics standards.

Conan Says:

"Oh, and Artie, being ranked 856 out of 1715 is still below average, even if only slightly."

You know... I could kick myself for not bothering to double check your math on this one earlier.

I always end up regretting it when I respond to any claim you've made without verifying each and every aspect for myself.

What is 1715 divided by 2 Conan?... I'll help you out... it is 857.5.

That means that being ranked 856 is slightly above average nationally.

The lower the number the better the ranking.

So even if we want to go by your extremely pedantic use of "above average" and "below average"... we now have to insist that he got his degree from an above average institution nationally.

What shall we conclude about your ability to do math from this Conan?

This is a simple division exercise suitable for a 3rd grader.

Does this mean your mathematical ability is equivalent to a 2nd grader?... or did you just make a mistake?

Wow. Wordy. I bet you like to hear yourself talk, too.

People who suffer from NPD....

You're like a dog with a bone. You found a semi-credible "expert" who gave you ammunition and you're gonna run with it.

You should re-watch those videos, Artie. Your own behavior is highly prominent in many of Dr. Grande's NPD indicators of narcissism.

========================================

...but for now at least it doesn’t appear as if he has violated any professional ethics standards. ~ Artemis at July 13, 2021 9:24 PM

He probably hasn't, at least not directly. Mental health counselors are not held to the same standards as pyschologists and psychiatrists. They're governed by a different body.

Even psychologists are not directly forbidden from diagnosing at a distance, the way psychiatrists are. But it is frowned upon in their published code of ethics.

While this guy is not professionally bound by any psychologist or psychiatrist code of ethics, there is a reason diagnosing at a distance is frowned upon in those professions. And that's a line he seems to have crossed.

========================================

Artie, when I say you write at a fourth grade level, it's not simply because I plugged your posts into an Internet tool. I came to that conclusion long before I used any tool to confirm it. And, it's not because you are writing birthday cards for 6-year-olds or presentations for elementary students. That's how you write.

I've no doubt that you are highly educated in science, but your non-science vocabulary and writing style show a distinct lack of sophistication. That's what you can't seem to grasp, that your science education does not make you smarter or more capable than anyone else in all subjects.

In general, you tend to miss non-science nuances, both in communication and in general knowledge of non-science subjects. You tend to look at things in black and white; gray areas seem to confound you.

This started as a discussion of allowing biological men into women's prisons and the resulting increase in sexual assaults reported therein.

I don't consider myself transphobic, but I'm also not in favor of simply throwing open the doors of women's private spaces to all comers who claim to be trans-gendered. That may be a gray area, but I think we need a better solution than an all-or-nothing approach. And I think we, as a society, can find one if we're willing to work together with a lot less acrimony - on both sides.

No one who's a little different wants to be reminded daily that they're a little different. Everyone wants to be accepted as normal. However, sometimes we need to endure those reminders, if only for the protection of others, or of ourselves.

========================================

Perhaps your Britishisms are simple typos. I'll leave you with the two I recalled when I gave you those examples:

"...that sounds like a fantastic way to end up with something unproperly grounded." ~ Artemis at March 18, 2019 4:02

...but that isn't the right way to analyse those populations. ~ Artemis at August 21, 2019 7:34 AM

========================================

Now, this has gotten off-topic and is turning into little more than a series of playground taunts, as most interchanges with you do. I'm almost certain we're the only people still reading this thread, having driven the others out. So, I'm going to leave now and let you have the last word. Getting that seems important to you.

You can characterize it as "running away," if that makes you feel like you won something.

See you in another thread, Artie. Hope your long absence was not due to any COVID issues.

Conan Says:

"You found a semi-credible "expert" who gave you ammunition and you're gonna run with it."

He's a mental health professional... he is credible on this subject and he is an expert in this particular field of study.

You're just irate that your behavior mirrors so many aspects of the video I linked to earlier.

I don't know what to tell you Conan other than you could always choose to change.

"While this guy is not professionally bound by any psychologist or psychiatrist code of ethics, there is a reason diagnosing at a distance is frowned upon in those professions. And that's a line he seems to have crossed."

I'm not convinced that is the case.

Examining hypothetical scenarios inspired by observed events is just a thought exercise and not clinical diagnosis.

You are desperately looking for an excuse to dismiss his expert opinion because you don't like that the behaviors he's described reflect your behaviors over the course of 10+ years.

"I've no doubt that you are highly educated in science, but your non-science vocabulary and writing style show a distinct lack of sophistication. That's what you can't seem to grasp, that your science education does not make you smarter or more capable than anyone else in all subjects."

Conan... you aren't a recognized expert in written style either to make such an assessment.

I've never claimed to be "smarter or more capable" than anyone... that's your thing, always obsessed with who is perceived as the "smartest guy in the room".

I don't care about any of that stuff. I'm only interested in the facts and evidence people bring to the table.

"In general, you tend to miss non-science nuances, both in communication and in general knowledge of non-science subjects. You tend to look at things in black and white; gray areas seem to confound you."

You're projecting again Conan.

We just went through a conversation where you've defined everything above the mean as "above average" and everything below the mean as "below average".

That is black and white thinking... it's an either or... above or below.

I've been the one talking about distributions and ranges.

That is gray area thinking.

It makes for a nice stereo type and all to accuse the technically minded person of lacking nuance and thinking in black and white... but you're always the one dealing in absolutes.

"Oh, and Artie, being ranked 856 out of 1715 is still below average, even if only slightly."

Where is the nuance here Conan?... I've been the one talking about 856 just being middle of the pack while you insist it has to belong to one of two binary categories.

This of course also ignores the fact that you got your math wrong and hence you didn't even place it into the correct category.

My views on things are extremely nuanced... you just have an intense need to find a flaw in anyone who disagrees with you.

Often times you get your facts wrong Conan.

Discussions proceed by having an honest conversation about such things, which means someone such as myself might point out that something you've said doesn't match with the available evidence.

"I don't consider myself transphobic, but I'm also not in favor of simply throwing open the doors of women's private spaces to all comers who claim to be trans-gendered. That may be a gray area, but I think we need a better solution than an all-or-nothing approach. And I think we, as a society, can find one if we're willing to work together with a lot less acrimony - on both sides."

Great... so please expand on what that might look like.

This is what I've been asking for and you keep avoiding detailing specifics of your vision.

That is how one might have had a conversation on this topic that could have been meaningful... yet you accused me of failing to do my "homework"

There is no "homework" that can permit me to see your inner thoughts... only you can provide such information.

"See you in another thread, Artie. Hope your long absence was not due to any COVID issues."

I pop in and out as time permits and if I have interest in a particular topic.

Things are fine around here... all adults vaccinated.

I hope you and yours are well... despite our differences I don't wish you ill Conan... but I sure do wish you might change how you operate.

All that TEXT. Pixels are dying by your malfeasance verbosity… Think of the liquid crystals, man!

You're troubled… You're not honing ideas or anything. You're practicing Commie power maneuvers, throwing overwhelming volume of rhetoric around as if to marshal the opinion of a surrounding proletariat in pursuit of fealty from imaginary masses. (After all, in commie paradise words are free! You're in your element!) You've been doing it here for a decade, but have grown no skills for persuasion, nor collected any bodies of information about our topis, or developed insights about discourse. The approval of some imaginary reader of this blog means too much to you. It's kinda weird. Given the dedication and ferocity, you've got to be in an indoor setting, 24/7, probably in an angry wheelchair.

Apparently we'll never know what makes you into such a spazzmodic little goofball. But also, we'll never care.

Crid,

Do you even see the meaningless drivel you compose?

“Commie power maneuvers”
“pursuit of fealty from imaginary masses”

This is just nonsense speak from a disturbed individual.

“You've been doing it here for a decade, but have grown no skills for persuasion, nor collected any bodies of information about our topis, or developed insights about discourse.”

Unfortunately, it sometimes is just not possible really to persuade people with facts and evidence.

The past two years should have demonstrated that to anyone who has been paying attention. We have ~20% of the country who believes that Trump will somehow be reinstated to the presidency within the next month… furthermore, we have not even managed to get 50% of the country vaccinated even after more than 600 thousand deaths. A sizable proportion of people believe the entire pandemic is simply a hoax… they believe the deaths are not real.

Such people have lost touch with reality and are hence beyond persuasion.

At some point we have to acknowledge that the fault is on the listeners side and not on the speaker.

Incidentally… what skills of persuasion have you ever demonstrated?... you just accuse folks of being foreigners and of having physical disabilities ad nauseum?

No one is impressed or persuaded by that nonsense.

Again... watch the video... it is about you.

Where do you live?

Based on your obsessive behavior I'd have to say rent free in your head.

We can trust your shame about this.

Crid,

Interestingly, the pathology of NPD is extremely shame focused.

You constantly talk about shame and ridicule and disparagement... that is something you appear to be hyper focused on.

I'm not the least bit interested in shaming you... I just want you to cut out your nonsense and grow up.

You seem very unwell and you aren't going to get the help you need on this blog.

Singapore? You know, that's not one of the United States.

Crid,

Was it your mother or your father who constantly berated you as a child?... or were you just a laughing stock in school?

I'm trying to understand the source of your deep insecurity.

Comfy enough not to pretend to speak another language in a nation I don't live in.

Taiwan? You have your own problems, muffin.

Crid,

We all get it already... you need a safe space from any and all ideas that don't make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

This blog isn't that kind of space.

If you live in the States, why would you be ashamed to say where, precisely? Coney isn't. Patrick isn't. Raddy isn't. Nicolek, Darth, all sorts of regulars have been plain about it, as have I.

Maybe you wouldn't like having to feign familiarity with the museums, pizza parlours or civic history.

If you live in the States, why are you afraid to say which one? All the rest of us have shared that kind of basic information. And you're not a bashful personality... I'm guessing you wouldn't want to have to pretend to know about the civic history and attractions.

Crid Says:

"If you live in the States, why would you be ashamed to say where, precisely? Coney isn't. Patrick isn't. Raddy isn't. Nicolek, Darth, all sorts of regulars have been plain about it, as have I."

Why do you demand that I conform?

That seems quite unamerican of you.

I'm content doing things my own way.

Group home?

You know, it's really amazing Crid that you read each and every comment on an entire blog just to search me out to show how dumb you are.

Confucian, always. Probably China

You are literally repeating yourself verbatim in multiple threads now... what an odd egg you are.

But you're disabled, right? Isolated somehow. People can tell, Orion.

lol... you are mental... copying and pasting your own posts from separate threads?... this is a new level of crazy even for you.

Where do you live?

Crid,

No matter how many times you ask I will not be inviting you over for coffee or tea.

Wheelchair?

I am curious what your personal issue might be with handicapped individuals?

Did someone in a wheelchair once run over your foot by accident and you've been holding a grudge ever since?

Care facility? Amirite?

Crid,

Tell us about the time a person in a wheelchair hurt you so badly that you now have animus toward folks who cannot walk.

I'm really curious why you think these kinds of statements are insults.

You've been socially stunted by some grim force: Communism, authoritarianism, birth defect, learning disability, orphanhood, crippling accident, abject geography or some admixture of these challenges.

The only illumination you can offer this blog is to let us know which.

Crid,

Have you considered the very real possibility that you suffer from a personality disorder?

All you do is bitch and moan and whine and complain... no wonder you are alone... I cannot imagine how miserable it must have been to have to live with you.