Wondering how frequent testing is going to help any one individual.

You test today. It's negative. You go to the convenience store, where somebody without a mask is coughing. You keep your distance, but you can't tell why they're coughing or where they've been. The mask keeps mists, but not virions, from reaching you in case of close approach.

You get a test. It's negative. You go to Dragoncon, where 43,000 people are circulating, all of whom had to have vaccination ID or a negative antigen test. Not generally known is that the vaccine is "leaky", in that it doesn't kill the virus, it just keeps the body from over-reacting to it. So vaccinated people can spread the virus - it's probable that they are more likely to, since they think they "don't have it".

You test again three days after the event. If negative, is that test true, considering the incubation period can be longer?

If positive, what do you DO?

------

You may be interested in how a Federal contractor is dealing with mandates. Here is the full text of a recent missive, essentially the f=groundwork for a "vaccine passport"; note that whether an event is of low or high transmission probability has no bearing on what happens to you, this is a policy to protect the masses.

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SRS Certification of Vaccination

The purpose of this form is to take steps to prevent the spread of COVID-19, to protect the health and safety of all Federal employees, onsite contractors, visitors to Federal buildings or Federally controlled indoor workspaces, and other individuals interacting with the Federal workforce. If you fail to submit this signed attestation or any required negative COVID-19 test, you may be denied entry to a Federal facility.

My Vaccination Status
By checking the box below, I declare that the following statement is true:
[ ] I am fully vaccinated. *1
[ ] I am not yet fully vaccinated. *2
[ ] I have not been vaccinated. *3
[ ] I decline to respond.

I understand that if I decline to respond or am not fully vaccinated, I must comply with the following safety protocols while in a Federal facility:
• Wear a mask regardless of the level of community transmission;
• Physically distance;
• Provide proof of having received a negative COVID-19 test from within the previous 3 days if I am a visitor or I am an onsite contractor who is not enrolled in an agency's testing program.
NOTE, employees required to enroll in the SRS testing program will be notified of timing and requirements of the program.

I sign this document under penalty of perjury that the above is true and correct, and that I am the person named below. I understand that a knowing and willful false statement on this form can be punished by fine or imprisonment or both (18 U.S.C. 1001).

Checking "I decline to respond" does not constitute a false statement. I understand that if I am a Federal employee or contractor making a false statement on this form could result in additional administrative action, including an adverse personnel action, up to and including removal from my position or removal from a contract.

*1. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention considers an individual fully vaccinated if they are:
• 2 weeks after their second dose in a 2-dose series, such as the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, or • 2 weeks after a single-dose vaccine, such as Johnson&Johnson's Janssen vaccine.
If you don't meet these requirements, regardless of your age, you are not fully vaccinated.
*2. Either I have received my first dose of Moderna or Pfizer, and my second appointment is scheduled, or I received my final dose less than two weeks ago.
*3. If you are not vaccinated or if you have not been vaccinated due to medical or religious reasons and you are approved or seeking approval through your individual company's HR process, please check either "I have not been vaccinated" or "I decline to respond."

Directions and notice to Federal employees

Consistent with guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force, SRS has established specific safety protocols for fully vaccinated people and not fully vaccinated people, respectively. You may be asked to submit this completed form to your employing agency.

In areas of low or moderate transmission, as defined by CDC, fully vaccinated people generally can safely participate in most activities, indoor or outdoor, without needing to wear a mask or maintain physical distance, and do not need to undertake regular testing - please note that consistent with CDC guidance, agencies may have different protocols for fully vaccinated people in specific work settings, such as healthcare settings.
In areas of high or substantial transmission, everyone, including fully vaccinated people, must wear a mask consistent with Federal requirements.

Employees who disclose that they are fully vaccinated will comply with agency guidance for fully vaccinated individuals. Employees who are unvaccinated, are not fully vaccinated, or who choose not to provide vaccine information are required to comply with CDC and agency guidance for not fully vaccinated individuals, including wearing masks regardless of the transmission rate in a given area, physical distancing, regular testing and adhering to applicable travel restrictions.
These requirements are to prevent the spread of COVID-19 to protect the health and safety of our workforce. Making a false statement on this form could result in an adverse personnel action against you, up to and including removal from your position.
Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. § 552a(e)(3), this Privacy Act Statement informs you of why you are being asked to provide this information.

Authority: We are authorized to collect the information requested on this form pursuant to Executive Order 13991, Protecting the Federal Workforce and Requiring Mask-Wearing (Jan. 20, 2021), Executive Order 12196, Occupational Safety and Health Program for Federal Employees (Fed. 26, 1980), and 5 U.S.C. chapters 11 and 79.
Purpose: This information is being collected and maintained to promote the safety of Federal buildings and the Federal workforce consistent with the above-referenced authorities, the COVID-19 Workplace Safety: Agency Model Safety Principles established by the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force, and guidance from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
Routine Uses: While the information requested on this form is intended to be used primarily for internal purposes, in certain circumstances it may be necessary to disclose this information externally, for example to disclose information to: a Federal, State, or local agency to the extent necessary to comply with laws governing reporting of communicable disease or other laws concerning health and safety in the work environment; to adjudicative bodies (e.g., the Merit System Protection Board), arbitrators, and hearing examiners to the extent necessary to carry out their duties regarding Federal employment; to contractors, grantees, or volunteers as necessary to perform their duties for the Federal government; to other agencies, courts, and persons as necessary and relevant in the course of litigation, and as necessary and in accordance with requirements for law enforcement; or to a person authorized to act on your behalf. A complete list of the routine uses can be found in the system of records notice associated with this collection of information, OPM/GOVT- 10, Employee Medical File System of Records, 75 Fed. Req. 35099(June 21, 2010), amended 80 Fed. Req. 74815 (Nov. 30, 2015).

Consequence of Failure to Provide Information: Providing this information is voluntary. However, if you fail to provide this information, you will be treated as not fully vaccinated for purposes of implementing safety measures, including with respect to mask wearing, physical distancing, testing, travel, and quarantine.
Please contact IDRT WAR Room at {redacted} with questions.

Directions and notice to Federal contractors
In areas of low or moderate transmission, as defined by CDC, fully vaccinated people generally can safely participate in most activities, indoor, or outdoor, without needing to wear a mask or maintain physical distance, and do not need to undertake regular testing - please note that consistent with CDC guidance, agencies may have different protocols for fully vaccinated people in specific work settings, such as healthcare settings.
In areas of high or substantial transmission, everyone, including fully vaccinated people, must wear a mask consistent with Federal requirements.

You may be asked to show this form and/or information from a health screening upon entry to a Federal building or Federally controlled indoor worksites, and/or to a Federal employee who is supervising or managing your work on Federal premises.

Directions and notice to Visitors
In areas of low or moderate transmission, as defined by CDC, fully vaccinated people generally can safely participate in most activities, indoor, or outdoor, without needing to wear a mask or maintain physical distance, and do not need to undertake regular testing - please note that consistent with CDC guidance, agencies may have different protocols for fully vaccinated people in specific work settings, such as healthcare settings.
In areas of high or substantial transmission, everyone, including fully vaccinated people, must wear a mask consistent with Federal requirements.

You may be asked to show this form and/or information from a health screening upon entry to a Federal building or Federally controlled indoor worksites. Please maintain this form during your visit.
You may be asked to show this form as part of your in-person participation in a Federally hosted meeting, event, or conference. If you are entering to obtain a public service or benefit and are not fully vaccinated, you must comply with all relevant CDC guidance, including mask wearing and physical distancing requirements, however this form and the requirement to show a negative COVID-19 test do not apply to you.

"Ron Bailey at Reason snarls about how Europeans can pick up el cheapo, fast COVID tests in the drugstore for under $10, while in the US, our FDA has been preventing that." ~Amy

In my area all covid tests are paid for by the federal government. Get one at your doctor and your doctor will bill the government. If you pay with insurance your insurance will pass the bill on to the government. There are even drive thru options also paid for by the federal government.

There are also tests you can buy at CVS or Walgreens. They are about $20 instead of $10. Not that big of a difference.

The bigger issue is the lack of supply in general. The CDC's guidelines have the public schools ordering massive levels of testing. So much so that after school started it is taking 2-3 days to get test results now instead of half a day. And that wait time is growing. I get an email from my kids school every single day that someone at the school tested positive for covid. Every day! Somehow we haven't all died in the zombie apocalypse.

The reality today is a 'small' public school has around 1000 students in it. Some have over 3000. Facilities of that size there will always be someone with covid there. And given how covid loves AC your kids are constantly exposed. Just how life is. Learn to deal with it and move on.

I wish I had as much confidence in the reliability of these tests as Amy does.

We aren’t beating Covid. It is here to stay. Manage your own risk. Move on.

That person was going to go to Dragoncon anyways.

What the testing will do is keep out the people whose results DID already show up. So it'll be less people.

I do think masks should stay on for now.

Eh testing... More the question is who is being tested and why.
My 90 yr old mother in her assisted care place has been tested (weekly) over 50 times. Even the week after a positive test. Everyone there residents and workers have been tested weekly, did not stop it getting in, or being passed around. Because a yes is often too late.
With me, there's a few times I'd have liked to have had a test, (is the cough seasonal allergies or being sick, is it a cold or the Covid) but to get one I'd have to go where I could infect others. So when I suspected I might be sick I stayed inside as much as possible. That's about all anyone can do.
Most have had it at least once whether they know it or not.

Here unvaccinated people get 5 free tests per month, which is useful so I got my kids' two boxes. There's a Covid outbreak in the school, so this way I can keep testing my kids.

Yep @NicoleK, every parent I know is stocking up on these things.

At a lot of schools/daycares/aftercare programs, if a kid shows up with a runny nose, cough, or fever, they get sent home and must produce a negative COVID test so they can be sent back (which the parents want to happen quickly so the parents can return to work). This is why every parent I know is stocking the linen cabinet with these things.

My husband and I are vaccinated and childless. So we've just gotten the free COVID tests from the city whenever we've had symptoms or known close-contact exposure, because we WFH and aren't in a rush for a rapid test ever.

Radwaste Says:

"So vaccinated people can spread the virus - it's probable that they are more likely to, since they think they "don't have it"."

While it is true that is someone suffers a breakthrough infection they can transmit the virus, it is not true that they are more infectious and more likely to transmit to an unvaccinated person.

One reason for this is that the overall viral load within a vaccinated person is typically much lower than an unvaccinated person. Another reason is that their recovery period is typically twice as fast, which limits exposure time.

The thing with COVID-19 is that one of the characteristics of this disease is that there is a relatively long asymptomatic infectious period amongst unvaccinated folks. This means they are also generally infecting folks when they don't think they have it. By the time they start showing symptoms they have already been spreading virus for several days.

So, in summary, the notion that vaccinated folks will spread the disease without knowing is not a distinguishing feature from unvaccinated folks, they recover more quickly, and while they are ill their overall viral load is much less than unvaccinated individuals.

This is of course assuming we are talking about a breakthrough infection... but the vaccine itself also prevents infection in the first place for most individuals.

If people got vaccinated and wore masks this entire issue would be resolved by now... instead we have morons advocating that we just do nothing and move on as we presently average more than 1000 deaths a day and approach a total body count of 700,000.

There are too many weak links in this chain.

This sort of reminds me of the pregnancy tests they sell at the Dollar Store. On the one hand, maybe we have been drastically over paying for what is an easy cheap diagnostic. OTOH, you really going to leave important life decisions up to a Dollar Store Pregnancy test?

Yes I am middle class cheap wad who shops at the Dollar Store.

"If people got vaccinated and wore masks this entire issue would be resolved by now..." ~Artemis

You keep living the fantasy, Arty!

Tsk. It remains that vaccinated people can spread the virus. You can't walk that one back.

Radwaste Says:

"Tsk. It remains that vaccinated people can spread the virus. You can't walk that one back."

There is nothing to walk back Radwaste.

You might as well be arguing that since sometimes people die in car crashes while wearing seatbelts that seatbelts themselves are not useful.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to spread the virus... that it is possible for a vaccinated person to spread the virus missed the point.

Incidentally, there is no vaccine with 100% efficacy. Even if you've been vaccinated against polio you can still get infected and transmit... it is just that the likelihood of that happening is much lower than for someone who is not vaccinated.

This is a matter of probability and statistics Radwaste.

All we need to do is get the effective R0 value below 1 and we are done... we don't have to drive R0 to zero for the pandemic to be over.

Ben Says:

"You keep living the fantasy, Arty!"

For someone who has been wrong about pretty much everything when it comes to the pandemic since this whole mess began you sure never seem to lose your confidence.

How are things going in Texas these days?... you've lost power when it was too hot... you've lost power when it was too cold... you are having hundreds of people die each day to the pandemic... you've got bizarre new laws pitting private citizens against each other in a bid to cash in on a $10,000 bounty... it seems like it must be a 3rd world country down there.

Maybe you should focus your attention on keeping the lights on and getting the hospital situation under control because it sure doesn't seem like things are going so well for you guys at the moment.

I haven't been wrong. On just about anything, Arty.

"How are things going in Texas these days?" ~Arty

Not bad. The public schools are being a bit annoying.

"you've lost power when it was too hot... you've lost power when it was too cold..." ~Arty

Have you ever looked at power grid uptimes? Texas isn't having any issues keeping the lights on.

"you are having hundreds of people die each day to the pandemic..." ~Arty

Yep. We all died. You are talking to a ghost! Wooo!

"you've got bizarre new laws pitting private citizens against each other in a bid to cash in on a $10,000 bounty..." ~Arty

Yep. Ghost wars!

"it seems like it must be a 3rd world country down there." ~Arty

Definitely. You shouldn't visit. It is terrible around here. Just the worst.

Ben Says:

"I haven't been wrong. On just about anything, Arty."

Sure you have. From the outset of the pandemic you classified the entire issue as unavoidable:

"The truth is you aren't going to stop yourself from getting this stuff. Just like you aren't going to stop the flu. So all that can be done is slow the spread so medical services don't get hit with as many dire cases at one time." - Ben at March 13, 2020 6:55 AM

I never got COVID Ben... nor did my spouse... nor did our kids... nor did my parents, aunts, uncles, etc...

My in laws are a different story... but many of them saw things the same way you did, hence they never took any actions to prevent infection.

Sometimes you can set up a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you saw infection as inevitable the actions you take are consistent with that set of beliefs... if on the other hand you saw it as a preventable event then you act accordingly and you set yourself up for success.

My family and I got to the vaccination stage without dealing with infection... something you claimed wasn't possible.

You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

You just have a defeatist attitude.

As Yoda might say... this is why you fail.

So long as you presume nothing can be done to succeed you will act as if nothing can be done to succeed.

"Have you ever looked at power grid uptimes? Texas isn't having any issues keeping the lights on."

We'll see how things go during the winter. Are you predicting any power issues this year?... if I had to place a bet I would say anything disconnected from the rest of the US grid is at risk.

"Yep. We all died. You are talking to a ghost! Wooo!"

No one said you all died... but things are looking a bit ugly in Texas from the perspective of available ICU beds.

"Definitely. You shouldn't visit. It is terrible around here. Just the worst."

If things keep trending as they have been it will improve in a decade or so once the local loons have been voted out by a more reasonable population.

Ah, Arty. Good to know you get the flu every single year. Truly tragic. Try washing your hands more often.

On the ICU beds, 95% utilization does sound bad. Of course typical utilization is 80-85%.

Keep up the faith Arty. We need your prayers. And for you to vaccinate your squirrels. Can't have the unvaccinated running around.

Ben,

I don't get the flu either... in part because I get my flu shot each year.

You really don't seem to understand how all of these mitigation strategies work (especially not when layered with one another as part of a cohesive plan).

"On the ICU beds, 95% utilization does sound bad. Of course typical utilization is 80-85%."

As usual you aren't getting it.

Right now 44% of ICU beds are being used for COVID patients in Texas.

You are presently at 95% overall utilization.

What do you think you get when you subtract 44 from 95?... I'll give you a clue... it isn't 80 or 85.

When you say the "typical" utilization is 80-85%, those are the pandemic numbers. In other words, typically during the pandemic Texas has been running between 80 and 85% utilization.

If on the other hand we look back to April of 2020 just when the pandemic was starting and Texas hadn't really been hit the ICU bed utilization was closer to 65%.

You don't appear to have the slightest clue what is actually going on or how to handle this situation.

From the start you've simply tossed your hands in the air and declared that there is nothing that can be done.

The results you are seeing in Texas are analogous to hiring a plumber to fix your toilet who doesn't believe it is possible to direct sewage out of your home.

You are living in shit because you don't think it is possible to live any other way.

Others of us hire professional plumbers who know how to actually fix things in part because they believe it is possible to do their job.

The way things are trending you'll hit ICU capacity and declare yet another state of emergency... you guys don't know what on earth you are doing down there.

Good luck with what is coming down the pipeline, it isn't going to be pretty.

Here you go Arty. Educate yourself.

https://covid-texas.csullender.com

In July covid icu usage was 7%, overall was at 87%. There are plenty of other data points to ponder.

But you keep that faith. Remember it is a hellhole down here and stay home. Nobody wants to go here. It is too crowded.

"Oh, wait.", Raddy!

Ben,

It is curious that you are actively avoiding looking at ICU bed utilization prior to 2020.

I wonder why that might be.

Just to give you a clue about how things work, because there are so many critically ill people due to COVID, other folks who would normally be given ICU beds are being bumped.

As a result when COVID numbers happen to be low at the moment we are opportunistically moving others in who need critical care... and then when the COVID numbers flare up again they get bumped again.

The unvaccinated are causing a redistribution of medical resources away from other folks who would otherwise get them.

Prior to the pandemic the utilization numbers were much lower because hospitals could operate in a more normal manner.

Look prior to 2020... anything going on after that isn't a reasonable comparison.

But you already know this, which is why you only want to look at July of 2021.

What you are doing is rationalizing... not being rational.

You have a position and will defend it until you or thousands of other people die... facts and reality cannot penetrate.

Ben,

FYI... here is a better way to look at things:

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/chs/hosp/hosptrnd.doc

Figure 6 on page 6 provides a picture of hospital bed utilization from 2002-2011.

You will note that the numbers run between ~50% and ~55% for beds in licensed hospitals.

That is the utilization rate over a decade.

That is how things normally run.

How you are consistently seeing numbers above 80% and you want to pretend it has nothing to do with the pandemic.

What happened Ben?... did the people of Texas all suddenly start falling apart in the last year?

You keep focusing on 2021 and ignore all data prior to 2020.

Ben,

Also... your own link even states that the average hospital bed occupancy rate is ~60%.

You can see the sudden shift to 80+% by July of 2020.

The ICU utilization trends with the overall hospital bed utilization.

And yet here you are pretending that a utilization rate of 80+% is just par for the course in Texas.

Get your head out of your ass already.

None of the aggregate data validates your position.

Not defending a position to death, Arty. I wouldn't want to steal your gig. That was just the easy chart to pull.

You've convinced me. We are all dying. Oh well. It was a good run while it lasted.

On the bright side after my impending death I will become a reliable Democrat vote. So that is looking up.

"This is a matter of probability and statistics Radwaste."

You don't know this, but trust me on this: you have no purpose here other than to get Conan to explain any issue more completely.

The point was that persons who are vaccinated can still spread COVID, because the vaccines are "leaky". As usual, you go off on your own.

You're not even watching the same movie, yet are compelled to hold forth as if you were the sole person on Earth to know the Whole Truth.

It's contemptible, which is one of the two reasons you're almost never cited on here as having said anything correct. The other is that your signal/noise ratio is negligible. Content/syllable nearly zero. Luj, FFS, makes more sense at all times. You add no value here.

Ask around.

The education you profess to have isn't evident. If the institutions from which you received certificates or degrees had any integrity and saw your... issue... they'd revoke them.

Brevity is the soul of wit. A long comment of yours is therefore...

Ben Says:

"That was just the easy chart to pull."

Great... and that chart clearly demonstrates that the average utilization over the years is ~60%... and yet you are quoting 80-85% as being "typical".

It isn't "typical" for any year other than 2021.

That you need to pretend that hospital utilization rates during a pandemic are in some sense normal demonstrates that you aren't really interested in living in reality... but what else is new.

Radwaste Says:

"You don't know this..."

The data clearly demonstrates that this is the case.

Vaccinated people do in fact have lower viral loads when infected... and they are less likely to get infected in the first place.

Those are facts Radwaste, not an opinion.

"The point was that persons who are vaccinated can still spread COVID, because the vaccines are "leaky"."

I love that amongst conservative folks the term "leaky" has become all the rage.

No vaccine in the history of mankind has been 100% effective at preventing infection.

Not the small pox vaccine, not polio, not MMR, etc...

They all have a breakthrough risk.

I've never heard any of them referred to as "leaky" before thought... but all you've got to say about this vaccine is that it is "leaky", as if that is some distinguishing feature.

It isn't a distinguishing feature though. The world is not a black and white place Radwaste, you need to get used to dealing with probability and statistics.

In that more nuanced world you might understand that this vaccine offers great benefits for avoiding infection even if it doesn't offer 100% protection (just like no vaccine offers 100% infection).

"You're not even watching the same movie, yet are compelled to hold forth as if you were the sole person on Earth to know the Whole Truth."

Nonsense Radwaste. My position on this is consistent with all of the experts.

You on the other hand spout off bullshit that is inconsistent with the science and the data and then want to declare some kind of victory because no one else understands the "Whole Truth".

One need not understand the "Whole Truth" to recognize when you are saying things that are factually incorrect or misleading.

I do not need to understand the mysteries of the universe to understand that if you say that the moon is made of swiss cheese that you are full of shit.

The same applies here.

"The education you profess to have isn't evident."

Ever watch the movie Idiocracy?... there is a funny scene in the court house that you should consider.

You haven't even considered the possibility that you are so far off the rails that you simply do not understand what is being expressed to you.

I'd be happy to help you, but the problem is your cup is already full... there is no room for more water, you already think you know everything despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

You keep on thinking that the vaccine is "leaky" and useless... you're still wrong.

The scientific and medical community do not agree with your perspective, that isn't because you are so much smarter and more insightful then the combined intellect and experience of the medical professionals, virologists, epidemiologists, etc...

Dunning and Kruger might like to have a chat with you some time.

Radwaste,

Let's put some actual facts on the table here:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm?utm_source=luvcelebs.com

"During December 14, 2020–August 14, 2021, full vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines was 80% effective in preventing RT-PCR–confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection among frontline workers, further affirming the highly protective benefit of full vaccination up to and through the most recent summer U.S. COVID-19 pandemic waves."

RT-PCR is what tests for Covid genetic material... this means that since it isn't there they are confirmed *not* to be infected.

You can keep imagining that there is some massive horde of asymptomatic vaccinated folks... but the vaccine already has been demonstrated to prevent 80% of them from being infected in the first place.

All those benefits related to reduction in severity of disease and survival are on top of that.

This whole "leaky" narrative you want to spread is just nonsense that isn't supported by the data.

Yes there are breakthrough infections... but even for front line workers who are exposed on a regular basis to extremely infectious patients, 80% of the time they don't get infected at all.

You can go on and keep pretending that the vaccine really doesn't do very much for preventing the spread of this disease... but the data does not back up what you are saying.

You are engaging in conspiracy theory nonsense.

You sometimes work with scientists, right?... I mean, they probably aren't in your direct chain of command as I believe you are a tech, but you could always try and chat to one of them and ask their honest opinion about the vaccine.

I work with dozens of PhDs on a regular basis (not to mention my network of friends and colleagues)... all of them are in shock as to the kind of perspective you are supporting.

Everyone understands of course that you are not alone in believing this kind of nonsense... but all of my associates are watching this stupidity unfold and evolve in utter disbelief.

To be honest it is kind of sad and pathetic because much of the suffering is voluntary at this point.

Vaccine effectiveness for delta variant, 66%. ~Arty's Study

Now do Mu.

Ben,

Do you actually know how to read?

"During December 14, 2020–August 14, 2021, full vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines was 80% effective in preventing RT-PCR–confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection among frontline workers, further affirming the highly protective benefit of full vaccination up to and through the most recent summer U.S. COVID-19 pandemic waves."

We'll call this line item 1.

"The VE point estimates declined from 91% before predominance of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant to 66% since the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant became predominant at the HEROES-RECOVER cohort study sites; however, this trend should be interpreted with caution because VE might also be declining as time since vaccination increases and because of poor precision in estimates due to limited number of weeks of observation and few infections among participants."

We'll call this line item 2.

That 66% number you want to quote is a number the study itself should be interpreted with caution.

In other words, that number isn't yet considered reliable because there are other confounding variables including the time period since vaccination, which is also known to modulate efficacy (this is why we are considering things like booster shots).

So you ignore the number that is considered reliable and quote the unreliable one that the study specifically states should be treated with caution.

You are not acting in good faith.

No Arty, it is you who is acting in bad faith. You've willfully misinterpreted what Radwaste said and replaced it with what you wished he said. I fully recognize the poor quality of that 66%. After all the 95% confidence interval is 26%–84%. Quite the range. But no one is talking about the original covid-19 virus when they are talking about 'breakthrough' or 'leaky' issues. They are talking about the more recent mutations. Your rebuttal about the original virus from Wuhan is completely off topic.

Now I don't like how Rad is describing this phenomenon, but that doesn't affect your completely dishonest response. Learn how to read and respond on topic.

Ben,

What Radwaste said was as follows:

"So vaccinated people can spread the virus - it's probable that they are more likely to, since they think they "don't have it"."

There is no misinterpretation here when he makes a claim that is patently false.

While it is true that vaccinated folks can in rare instances spread COVID to others... what is demonstrably untrue is that they are *more* likely to spread it than unvaccinated folks.

Those are his exact words.

That is the plain meaning of what he said.

He was suggesting that vaccinated folks were are more likely vector for the spread of disease than unvaccinated people.

That isn't just a little wrong, that is completely wrong.

Ben,

Just to be absolutely clear... his statement remains wrong regardless of what variant you are talking about.

Calling the vaccine "leaky" is one thing, saying that vaccinated folks are more likely to spread disease is another.

That's great Arty. Let me know when you learn to read. Bye.

Ben,

My ability to read seems to be just fine.

This entire conversation begin with me referencing Radwaste's flatly wrong claim that vaccinated folks were more likely to spread disease than unvaccinated folks.

Since all of this apparently went over your head and you have been operating under the belief that this was a conversation about "leaky" vaccines is evidence that your ability to comprehend what has been going on here in next to non-existent.

As I said, you are not acting in good faith.

Ben,

Also... what you wrote here is monumentally stupid.

"But no one is talking about the original covid-19 virus when they are talking about 'breakthrough' or 'leaky' issues. They are talking about the more recent mutations. Your rebuttal about the original virus from Wuhan is completely off topic."

At no point have I been focusing on the original strain or the alpha strain.

The focus of my conversation has been the delta strain.

In fact, let me reiterate the study I quoted earlier:

"During December 14, 2020–August 14, 2021, full vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines was 80% effective in preventing RT-PCR–confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection among frontline workers, further affirming the highly protective benefit of full vaccination up to and through the most recent summer U.S. COVID-19 pandemic waves."

The most recent summer U.S. COVID-19 pandemic wave is the delta wave.

How exactly did that manage to go over your head?

For reference, I bought 2 boxes of 5 tests the other day for 35 francs each. The kids get 1 free box per month for now, and we have to pay for any beyond that. Since there's a cluster at their school I'm testing regularly. 7 francs a test, a franc being about the same as a dollar.

NicoleK,

I'm sorry you have to contend with the pandemic in this manner and hope you and your kids remain healthy.

If people had gotten their collective shit together none of us would likely be in this situation at this time.