Presiding Juror: “On the charge of involuntary manslaughter, we find the defendant, Jennifer Crumbley, guilty. LOL.”

The thing is, sometimes kids write dramatic things, or draw dramatic pictures. Sometimes they write stories with blood and guts and murder. Sometimes they draw pictures of gunfights or swordfights or Jason, or whatever.

I mean yeah on the one hand "Please help me" is a literal cry for help.

On the other hand... if we start sending home every dramatic kid, it'll be a lot of kids.

I don't know about the ammo or not, I don't know if kids shooting stuff and hunting is the social norm where he is. If kids regularly go hunting or shooting skeet or whatever, maybe a search for ammo isn't so weird.

Hindsight is 20/20

NicoleK, a part of this is the lost of trust and the fact that schools no longer are part of the communities they work in. People don't trust that school administrators will be held to the same standards as they are . . . and they are right. Just in my neighborhood I regularly see school busses driving on the wrong side of the street or engaging in other traffic violations. This is a daily occurrence. They do this in front of the cops who are busy issuing tickets to regular people doing the same thing yet the busses never get pulled over. They are both part of the same team. A team I and my other citizens are not part of.

Where do you live that both buses and regular cars are regularly driving on the wrong side of the street?

And sucky though that is, I'm not seeing the connection to whether or not Crumbley's behavior fell within the regular social norms of kids his age or not?

The community issue is a big one. What's painful here, is seeing the school districts make a lot of the same mistakes the US made 20 or 30 years ago, decisions we had already acknowledged when I got my EdM in '05, and here they are plowing ahead and I'm like OMG no, I know how this story ends...

I think it's a matter of time before we start seeing school shootings in Switzerland. Hopefully enough time that my kids will be out of school.

Much of this is an overzealous/political prosecutor with the leftist message guns are evil. They are going after the parents so they can set a president to go after other parents who teach kids about guns or have guns in the house.
If this 15 yr old took the family car and ran over students we would not be even aware of this case and no parents would be charged. But guns and those who have or like guns are 'evil'.

NicoleK,

I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote. I'm saying the issue is not what is being openly talked about.

Why are we even talking about this being or not being the school's responsibility? The reason is the parents have been charged. Understandably parents everywhere now see a target on their backs. So the easy response is to deflect some of that onto people who are usually above the law, the schools. If parents will only be charged when school administrators are also charged then most parents don't have to worry. If not then it is another example of schools being unaccountable and dangerous (for the parents) to send your kids there.

"Where do you live that both buses and regular cars are regularly driving on the wrong side of the street?"

The city needs to expand the road near this school into a four lane one (two both ways). The school has created a traffic problem and everyone refuses to address it. This isn't an uncommon issue. And it is hardly the only example of open criminality US public schools regularly engage in. Criminality that is not addressed because DAs don't want to piss of unions. This isn't a Houston area issue. It isn't even a Texas issue. This is stuff you find all over the US.

“Much of this is an overzealous/political prosecutor with the leftist message guns are evil. They are going after the parents so they can set a president to go after other parents who teach kids about guns or have guns in the house.
If this 15 yr old took the family car and ran over students we would not be even aware of this case and no parents would be charged. But guns and those who have or like guns are 'evil'.”

There is a lot of truth to what you say here. As you say, if the parents had left a set of car keys lying around, or a knife drawer unsecured, would we be having this conversation?

I’m still waiting for the facts and think at the very most the parents may have violated a state law regarding gun storage. ( and they may not have) Hardly a class 1 felony, but as I have said before, the process is the punishment.
They have civil liability in spades, but I think criminal charges are a bridge too far.

Ben, we have a similar problem in my neighborhood where a new middle school was built not only with inadequate parking, but also the only access to both the school and the parking lot are from a secondary two lane road with no shoulder. Parents cars regularly block the entire right lane dropping off and picking up kids, forcing residents of my neighborhood to either drive in the left hand lane to get through, or drive three miles out of the way to use the only other road into the development.

At the planning stages for the school there were numerous people pointing out the flaws in the site plan, and were basically told to “buzz off chucklehead” by the city and school district authorities.

The school causing my local problem was built in the 80s. So not a new issue and not one anyone is going to fix any time soon. I was just pointing out a common example of one law for government employees and a different one for the rest of us.

That type of 'noble' behavior has really burned the goodwill US public school have. The different laws for different people is the real national issue in this Oxford High situation. The issues NicoleK brought up are all very good and valid things to bring up. But they aren't pertinent here.

Ben "Why are we even talking about this being or not being the school's responsibility?"

That may be part of the reason. If it was partially the schools fault, blaming/going after parents is good deflection.
Still only the basics out, and with spin we will probably never know the full truth. But schools often have councilors and sometimes trained psychologists. That note should have gotten him a couch with one. School didn't send kid home or search him. True they didn't "know" there was a gun, just someone checking ammo prices, but as was mentioned a knife can be deadly.

Part of this is there were strong signs but (from what I'm hearing) only very recently, and people usually don't go from no record of problems to mass shooter in a day.

We've all heard of kids who are angels at home but who are terrors at school (sometimes in the presence of teachers, sometimes not).

THOSE kids do it because they know their parents will automatically take their side - or the parents pretty much think it's not THEIR job to make sure their kids act kind and civilized when the parents aren't there.

Or: "They're just kids! They HAVE to break rules and laws (such as laws against violence and shoplifting) once in a while, or they'll go insane! Why don't more people SYMPATHIZE with that?"

In the meantime, from elsewhere:

Mumofsixbirds:
"I'm wondering if now parents of these useless bags of skin will be locking up their weapons? I'm hoping that this will help turn the tides with respect to school shootings and angry teens having access to guns in the future. This has been a long time coming IMO.

"The lives of these parents are never going to be the same after this. I hope this puts some fear into people who are careless about securing their guns where their unstable brats can get at them."

"Something tells me that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree here. I have a feeling that these people just didn't give a shit about anything. One would hope that if people have kids, they would know that maybe having a gun sitting loose somewhere may be a bad idea. I'm also pretty sure that they would've had some indications that something was wrong with him and taken some kind of precautionary measures."

Cambion:
"...Apparently the police cannot legally speak to the killer without parental consent and the parents refused to allow an interrogation. Soooo what happens in regard to this?

"I would figure there will be many many more school shootings in the foreseeable future as the first wave of gently disciplined children reach high school without ever having been told 'no.' "

Oakland County school districts are already eliminating student privacy as a response to this. They knew who the bad actor was and didn't do the right thing and expel him from school / prevent him from entering the facility. Instead, they will treat every student as a subject of the modern panopticon. The education system does what it's intended to do, but not what you would like: to inure its subjects to the arbitrary exercise of power.

"...Apparently the police cannot legally speak to the killer without parental consent and the parents refused to allow an interrogation. Soooo what happens in regard to this?

--

I thought all that was thrown out the window when they charged him as an adult. He was receiving this protection in the first several days at the Children's Village in Pontiac - but a court ruled he would stand as an adult. He is now asserting his right against self incrimination.

or the parents pretty much think it's not THEIR job to make sure their kids act kind and civilized when the parents aren't there.
_____________________________________

Hint: the old way to make sure your kids DID behave when you weren't there was:

1. To remember that kids have free will, so if they misbehaved, it didn't automatically mean YOU were an inherently bad parent, and

2. To TELL the kids "if I ever hear you're in trouble with a teacher, neighbor or a store manager, boy are YOU going to be sorry when I get home."

(As in, don't assume the adult who complains is an unreasonable liar or monster until there's overwhelming proof of that. 90% of the time, that will not be the case.)

You have been told for the last 50 years to cry and scream at the sight of a gun, so that the police would come and take them away. You have allowed lower standards for everything in society, being told that meeting those standards was too hard, and that you couldn't possibly have standards at all. Look at your feet, not up, or at the horizon, worthless tax burden, you.

You now have police in schools, and you call them something else. You get patted down at the airport and nod sagely when you are told it is for your own safety.

Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety.

When that is what you have... that is all that you have.

If only you could have it. You cannot, no matter how many handcuffs you allow on your person.

Joe J,

The police have already said they would have acted if the school informed them. There were 'resource officers' at the school. They were not informed of the situation or involved in any of the meetings. The police claim they would have made sure he didn't have access to guns etc.

Now, how much you believe the police on that last line is up to you.

Also I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I agree with you there is an overly political DA who went after the parents on the theory 'guns are bad, mkay'. The problem is that logic applies equally to the school administrators as to the parents. After the charges were leveled against the parents some people asked if you go after the parents like this why haven't you charged the school administrators. A question the DA doesn't appear capable of answering.

Informed them of what, though? Of drawing a violent picture? The vast, vast, vast majority of people who make violent art are not homicidal maniacs. Do we really want cops coming in and arresting people who make violent art?

"I think it's a matter of time before we start seeing school shootings in Switzerland."

Switzerland has long had one of the highest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world. It still has very low rates of homicides or mass-shootings. Guns and their availability aren't the problem.

I'm thinking the school is more culpable, they are or have the professionals, which if not used in this case why do they exist.

As to Switzerland, remember the size difference, the US is about 35 times the size, so even if it happened once a year, and odds in Switzerland were the same, it would only happen there once every 2 generations. It is a rare and highly publicized event (which likely causes it to happen more).

Surprise surprise -the drama-queen prosecutor avoided the Crumly's lawyer to make a dramatic "fugitive" arrest.

And the drama-queen prosecutor lied about the boy's access - the gun was locked up.

(Purposely linking to a conservative site instead of cnn itself, which buried this info)

https://www.thenewneo.com/2021/12/06/oh-and-about-that-gun-the-crumbleys-kept-in-an-unlocked-drawer/

"Informed them of what, though?" ~NicoleK

They had a meeting because of concern over violence. I believe their own policies say a resource officer should be involved in that. They did not do that.

Now, personally I don't believe the sheriff would have done anything to prevent this from happening. But the legal argument against the parents is 'they should have known better and done something!'. A legal argument that applies even stronger against the school. That is the problem of arresting people for your personal fringe political beliefs. Your crap legal arguments may boomerang back and hit your own political side.

"Do we really want cops coming in and arresting people who make violent art?" ~NicoleK

We already have them arresting the parents of criminals.

You trying to limit the scope of this isn't helping. If the parents are liable then the principal is too. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah but szoszolo they're doing everything they can to change the culture of Switzerland.

Ben, the scope needs to be limited.

Why the hell is it ever an option to try a kid as an adult? Kids are not adults. Violent kids are not adults. Psycho kids are not adults. No kid is an adult.

Why the hell is it ever an option to try a kid as an adult? Kids are not adults. Violent kids are not adults. Psycho kids are not adults. No kid is an adult.

NicoleK at December 7, 2021 11:20 AM

15 is kind of a grey area. 12, no question it would go to family court.

However blame the justice system, You don’t try the kid as adult, he will probably be released with no restrictions when he turns 21. If the kid is truly a sociopath, you might see where people don’t want that to happen.

"Yeah but szoszolo they're doing everything they can to change the culture of Switzerland."

So you're shifting the ground from what actually is true now and has been true for generations, to what might be true, maybe, some day in the future? Is your point that if/when their culture changes, there will be a lot of mass shootings there? Well, we'll see, won't we?

Meanwhile, Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and very few mass shootings.

Kids are not adults. Violent kids are not adults. Psycho kids are not adults. No kid is an adult. ~ NicoleK at December 7, 2021 11:20 AM

Agreed, but a violently psychotic kid is a threat to the people around him, a threat from whom those people should be protected.

However blame the justice system, You don’t try the kid as adult, he will probably be released with no restrictions when he turns 21. If the kid is truly a sociopath, you might see where people don’t want that to happen. ~ Isab at December 7, 2021 1:11 PM

I don't think anyone sane wants to see a kid tried as an adult and imprisoned in an adult prison. Until the justice system finds a way to accommodate children and teenagers who are convicted of committing violent crimes, prosecutors and judges have little choice but to try them as adults and sentence them to adult prison.

Why can't violent children and teenagers serve the portion of their sentence until 18 in a juvenile facility and the remainder in an adult facility? Why does reaching the age of majority have to mean instant release with no criminal record?

"Ben, the scope needs to be limited." ~NicoleK

Not how you want to limit it. You are not a noble. You don't get special teacher privileges. You've made this a your tribe vs. everyone else issue. If that is how you want it don't complain when the other tribes massacre yours.

Not figuring out a kid is going to shoot people is not the same as leaving a gun around (assuming you live in a place where guns must be secured), which apparently the parents did not even do.
In fact given that it was his Xmas present had they even given it to him yet?

This is not limited to school shootings Ben. This is related to the people who get cancelled not for posting an offensive tweet but for following someone who once posted an offensive tweet.

Guilt be association is getting way out of hand.

And Ben you fail to see the consequences of your desire to prosecute teachers… not the consequences on the teachers themselves… what do you think schools are going to be like if they have to crack down hard at the first sign of trouble before any trouble has actually happened? Forget the teachers… do the KIDs deserve to be suspended if they draw a gun? How many posts have we seen here about some kid picking up a twig or making a gun with his fingers and getting into trouble at school after saying “pow”?

What you are amdefending isn’t just bad for teachers

It isn't my desire to prosecute teachers, NicoleK. It is your desire to only defend teachers. To limit the scope so only teachers are protected.

You don't get to have this both ways. You don't get special privileges just because you are a teacher. You have to live with the same laws as the rest of us. Stop being tribal and join the rest of society.

For what it's worth, I highly recommend reading Judy Blume's 1974 novel, Blubber (about middle-school bullying).

While I sympathize with those adults who don't want kids reading it (it could easily turn into a how-to manual) and who complain that it's just a work of sadistic voyeurism, since it's told from the point of view of the contemptuous "bystander," Jill, it still has two very important morals that should be clear to any adult reader:

1. If you're a teacher or a parent, Do Your Job, or this is how kids will behave - and THINK - when you're not looking. (Even the stricter teachers clearly don't care what happens to victims outside of their own classes, or they would work to stop the bullying - and they don't. Also, the parents don't seem to think it's THEIR job to make sure their kids behave decently when they're not there - this becomes evident in three or more scenes. The adults are pretty much older versions of Jill herself, so is it any wonder she has contempt for almost everyone, young or old? On top of that, the only real difference between Jill and the lead bully is that Jill is a follower, not a leader. Clearly, an adult should not want to raise EITHER type of bully - or be a teacher who's a "bystander.")

2. If you're a kid, you can't count on adults to do their jobs, so grow up fast and stand up for yourself. (Granted, this moral may not be so evident to child readers - and it's also a bitter pill to swallow.)

Why can't violent children and teenagers serve the portion of their sentence until 18 in a juvenile facility and the remainder in an adult facility? Why does reaching the age of majority have to mean instant release with no criminal record?

Sometimes that is they way they handle it. Convict them as an adult. They serve their time in a juvenile facility until they are 18 and then are transferred to an adult facility.