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Frisk Management

I’m being tormented by a co-worker’s husband. He visits our office often, flirting with me every time, but it's gone from “Hey, good lookin'!” to getting right in my space and whispering “Hot butt” or “Lemme see your cleavage.” He’ll come up behind me at my computer, so I'm trapped. He'll put his hand in my hair or on my neck or shoulders, even when his wife’s there. She’ll snort and call him “a perv,” but he doesn't stop. I talked to my boss, and she said just ignore him, don’t encourage him, but I haven't encouraged him at all. When he touches me, I try to duck away. When he says dirty things, I put my hand up and say, “Don't even start.” It's gotten to the point where I’ll hide in the back room until he leaves. He's not an employee, so my boss' hands are tied. And I don’t want to cause tension with his wife. Short of yelling at him (a bad idea, since I can imagine the fiery-tempered redhead comments), how do I stop this?

--Manhandled

Why be known as the “fiery-tempered redhead” when you can cower in a supply closet until they start selling the “hostile workplace” companion to the Post-it-dispensing highlighter, the Post-it taser?

A pity you’re a white-collar worker, not a gold-lamé G-string one, since strip clubs generally have strict no-groping policies and big steroidal goons standing around itching to enforce them. That’s how it’s supposed to work in your workplace, too, except with your boss in the bouncer role. Her responsibility’s the same whether the gropings and smutticisms come from a co-worker or some co-worker’s gorilla of a husband. Law professor Kingsley Browne told me your boss’ legal liability turns on whether she’s “taken reasonable steps to prevent or remedy (sexual) harassment.” Somehow, I think advising you “Just close your eyes and think of paychecks” doesn’t cut it.

You may be able to drag your company to court, and maybe even squeeze some bucks out of them (for info, call the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: 1-800-669-4000). The reality is, that can hurt your career. Nobody wants to hire Susie Sue-Ya. But maybe there’s no need to be her -- if you can see this as an opportunity to become somebody people know better than to push around. No, you don’t deserve what you’re going through, nor are you “asking for it,” but you do need to ask yourself where he gets off touching you. And the answer is, right where you let him.

Personally, the day somebody who isn’t my boyfriend, my granny, or an employee of Supercuts starts putting their hands in my hair is the day they lose a finger. I don’t have to storm around announcing this like some Big Angry Bertha. The memo comes from within. Think about the message you’re sending by ducking, hiding, and kinda-sorta telling him off. You want to be liked, you don’t want to make waves, you’re ripe for the picking. What you need to do now is what you should’ve done from the start: Get right up in his face, without shouting or screeching, and tell him, “Don’t touch me, don’t talk to me, don’t come near me.” If you don’t quite feel you have it in you, not to worry. You should eventually find it if you just keep putting it on. If he bothers you again, rinse and repeat, and go back to your boss. Remind her not only of the law, but of what they’re unlikely to be crowing about at the next stockholders’ meeting: “Why, 40 percent of our profits this year came from employees curled up in a fetal position under their desks.”

Posted by aalkon at January 20, 2008 9:24 AM

Comments

"He's not an employee, so my boss' hands are tied."

This is her biggest misconception. While she ought to take a firmer line, the boss is responsible for the well-being of his or her employees. Since she has complained, the boss ought to take action.

Forbid the office visits. If the guy needs to talk to his wife, he can meet her in the lobby, or at the door. If he comes in anyway, let the wife know that her job is at stake, and fire her if necessary.

Posted by: bradley13 at January 23, 2008 2:35 AM

Accidentally spill a glass of water over his crotch every time he comes near you. "Oh dear, I am _so_ clumsy!"

Every time. Keep a glass of water on your desk.

Posted by: Norman [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 3:27 AM

Some men are thick headed so he might actually think that you are OK with his behaviour because he's just clowning around anyway. So, first let him know in very clear language that his forward behaviours make you uncomfortable, then let him know that your personal space extends for three feet around your bod in all directions. Let him know that he must respect your personal space.

The first time he touches you afterwards...taser 'im. The next time he penetrates your three feet of personal space, turn on your taser. The "click, click, click" sound will remind him of being tasered.

You might gain a reputation, but not to worry, men love a good challenge. On your next date your boyfriend will be a perfect gentleman, he will probably study the rules of chivalry so that he might have a chance at getting near you without being tasered. If he is a perfect gentleman then he will probably ask you if it is OK to kiss you at the end of the date. He will then brag to his buddies the next day at work that he penetrated your three feet barrier (ahem).

Posted by: William at January 23, 2008 4:02 AM

"Come up behind me at my computer..."

I agree with Amy that the LW has to deal with this directly. However, when someone comes up behind me while I'm working at my computer, I'm often rather startled. In this case, I might be so startled that I'd jump back in my chair...hard...every time. "Oh, I'm sorry, was that your toes/groin/knee?"

The wife's response does tweak my curiousity a bit. It's likely she's so "kept" she refuses to restrain him, but the sex track in my brain can't help but wonder if they're looking for a third. Not that the office is a good place to actively troll for sex partners. Could they both be so intent/inexperienced that neither of them recognize her rather weak protestations?

Posted by: moreta [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 5:33 AM

"The first time he touches you afterwards...taser 'im. The next time he penetrates your three feet of personal space, turn on your taser. The "click, click, click" sound will remind him of being tasered."

I talked to Kingsley about this sort of thing, and it's not the right step. You might even be charged for it.

Posted by: Amy Alkon [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 5:59 AM

There are morons who can't keep their hands and their comments to themselves, no matter how often they're told off. I've met them.

Don't be afraid to appeal to a higher authority, namely the law. It is illegal for your employer to allow this to occur in her workplace. Tell your employer that the situation is intolerable and constitutes harrassmant. If she still has no effective response, find a lawyer to write a "friendly" letter. That should convince her that the situation is serious.

I'm not saying to sue, but to remind your employer of her responsibilities under the law.


Your description of his hands in your hair make my skin crawl!!

Posted by: Kim at January 23, 2008 6:30 AM

Re Norman's advice to "accidentally" spill water on the guy's crotch. Hot coffee would be even better.

Posted by: rpm at January 23, 2008 6:36 AM

Again, you can't respond with violence and expect to get away with it. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's kind of like gunning down somebody who steals your pumpkin.

Posted by: Amy Alkon [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 6:40 AM

Ewww! Ewww! Ewww!

The accidental spilling of hot coffee does sound tempting but I think Amy's right about that (and if I know Amy she researched to make sure she was). Why give him the last laugh as he further bullies by pressing charges because that's what he's doing. Getting a cheap thrill out of bullying.

When I was reading the letter, all I could think of was every sexual harrassment training course I've ever been forced to endure. Amy's right. LW's got a strong case here especially if boss keeps telling her to just turn the other cheek (pun intended). I would try what she suggests first instead of being branded a suer. Just the threat will hopefully force her boss to start taking the action she's supposed to be by law.

If not and given the necessary of having to at minimum threaten to drag in the law, LW might want to give serious thought to looking for a new, better job. One with a more professional attitude and, hence, also better future opportunities. I would think the company with a professional reputation is going to look better on a resume anyway than a company that doesn't take itself seriously enough to snip problems like this in the bud.

Posted by: Donna at January 23, 2008 7:02 AM

document, document, document EVERYTHING! Keep a record of what was said, reported to management and what was done after the fact.

Not saying "sue", but this would be a good thing to have if it ever came to that!

Posted by: Kari at January 23, 2008 7:33 AM

How about this: "Listen you lascivious thug, I've told you to stop touching me. It's called assault. Touch me one more time and I call the police. This is not a drill, you disgusting jerk."

That's pretty much what my ex said to a guy that she worked with. He stopped.

Posted by: Jeff [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 7:37 AM

what about trying something first that doesn't get the boss involved - and if this doesn't achieve anything, THEN get the boss involved - how about putting up a NOT WANTED poster where he - and everyone else - can see it. assuming it might be too difficult and/or wierd to get a photo of him to put on the poster, she could instead simply list on said poster his behaviors and the things he says. the little edge of humor in this method might make it that much easier for her to do it, and, more seriously, the public posting of his behaviors would show that she is documenting (which she should, with dates & times) his acts, and this might also publicly embarass him enough that he'll quit. the potential downfall i see in this tactic is that it could be seen as playful in which case it might not be effective at all. she could also put a masking/duct tape line on the floor around her computer/work area which he is not to cross?

Posted by: trina [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 7:48 AM

the reason, by the way, i suggest trying to do something w/o the boss' involvement is that just as outright suing the company would hurt her career, unfortunately even just getting the boss involved will probably create problems for her at work.

Posted by: trina [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 7:59 AM

The whole situation sounds just plain weird. I remember from all of the harassment vids I have had to sit through that customers/visitors are not permitted to behave badly either. The boss is either a raging idiot (possible) or there is some really odd ball office politics. I'd try this in her place just to get a feel for the office politics. Have a male friend of the LW preferably an Orlando Bloom (sp) look alike try the same tactics with the co-worker, the touching and flirting and stuff. There should be a version of four possible results that could occur:
1) Your boss does nothing, she's an idiot and not worth working.
2) You are forbidden from having this friend come into the office. The situation is FUBAR get out of there now. Something less then professionals is going on.
3) The hubby confronts your friend then you explain to him why this happened and it should stop. Bring mace or have him bring mace and make sure the confrontation is on camera.
4) Your buddy is invited to join a 3 way. While his options are up to him it might be a good idea to explain to them that looking for thirds at work is not a good idea.

Major caveate: If you (LW) work in porn or used.

Posted by: vlad [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 8:09 AM

I have been told "oh he has a family, we should just tolerate his bad behavior" too. It's because the boss is uncomfortable with it and doesn't want to handle the matter. The "EWWW!" factor is strong.

I had a problem that involved another law at work, and I found a way to handle it that didn't label me as a liability.

Look up the law, maybe show the text to the boss and a precedent for the workplace (or quote a very reliable source). Say "You know, I am not the only one he offends and harasses - he has pulled his tricks on at least 3 other women here. The company is liable if we continue to allow his behavior. I am not the suing type, but other people might be. No one here needs a lawsuit and as you can see, if this behavior is tolerated, we could easily have one on our hands. You, as the boss, might want to do something so you are not liable. I am trying to help." And you might suggest what the other poster above wrote about having the guy meet her in the lobby, or not at work at all. It's a more than fair request. If you look like you are trying to help and not trying to sue your boss, it helps. It worked for me, anyway.

Posted by: jennifers at January 23, 2008 8:15 AM

Kari: "document, document, document EVERYTHING! Keep a record of what was said, reported to management and what was done after the fact."

Both Amy and Kari give dead-on good advice here (and I am a lawyer). First, the LW must be adamant with the guy himself and with his wife that she doesn't like this and wants it to stop yesterday. (I think she should talk to her colleague as well as the boorish husband.) Second, she should be adamant with her boss that this is not tolerable in the work place. I have the distinct impression that her protestations to date have been so weak (hiding in a supply closet??) that everyone may well assume that she's ok with it all. You don't have to scream like a banshee and throw things to be firm and get your point across. It's time the letter writer did it. If the behavior continues, the LW should keep a record of when she spoke to her boss and what was said, and every subsequent related incident, just in case. It never hurts. Suing aside, if she's forced to quit (or they attempt to fire her as a trouble-maker, she can negotiate a great going-away present.

Posted by: Gail at January 23, 2008 8:19 AM

I'm pretty confused about how a coworker's husband is allowed to just hang out around the LW's desk without his wife around? If he isn't a client then he has no business with anyone at the office except his wife. Why is he allowed to run around like a retarded child with a hard on?

I mean, NO ONE is allowed to walk around my company's office unescorted. It is a security risk, and a risk for the company.

I guess the office doesn't have much security. I know if this happend to me I would just call building security and have him escorted out.

Posted by: Shinobi [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 8:41 AM

"like a retarded child with a hard on?"

thank you for a hearty laugh!! oh gawd that's a great visual.

Posted by: trina [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 8:57 AM

Amy, I love you! You'er right about consequences to getting violent. When I was in the Army, there was a man who brushed his hands against a female soldier. She told him to stop and repotrted it to her supervisor and his (he was a civillian working for the government). He stopped for a month. Then, one day, she was bent over working on a light socket and he felt her up her crotch. She broke 3 of his fingers. She got in trouble and he only got a write-up and kept his job. This was back in the 80s when the workplace wasn't as aware of harassment, too.

Keep up the great work!

Posted by: Pam at January 23, 2008 10:53 AM

Thanks so much. You wouldn't believe the people writing me angry e-mails that I didn't tell the woman to tattle on the guy as my sole response.

Posted by: Amy Alkon [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 11:29 AM

She could always have her boyfriend show up to take her to lunch. Try to have him there when Mr. Grab-Ass shows up. When grabby gets in her face, then the boyfriend can defuse the situation.

If she doesn't have one, I'm available, and my rates are reasonable.

oh - and one other thing - the boss is not really too bright. Doesn't she realize that having red hair is all a woman has to do to attract attention?

Posted by: brian [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 12:19 PM

I agree that violence isn't usually the answer, but there's a certain appeal to stepping on they guy's foot or "jumping" your elbow into his ribs, then apologizing profusely, saying you were startled/didn't realize he was standing so close. Hard to press charges under those circumstances...

Posted by: lily at January 23, 2008 12:22 PM

The person invading your personal space is the person who is behaving in an aggressive manner. After a polite warning, you risk a punch in the nose if the scenario in question were between men. A woman needs to carry a taser or a can of mace. Unfortunately, standing up to a bully is the best way to get him or her off of you (short term). If you care about the bully in question, there are a number of more time consuming long term interventions that you might try.

Posted by: William at January 23, 2008 12:48 PM

The maintenance man in my office building is a 'close talker', and would invade my personal space the first few times I met him. After that, I was very aware of where he was when he was in the office, and would jump up and make sure there were at least 4 feet between me and him. When he tried to move closer, I kept moving away.

I think some people are too dense to understand the concept of personal space, so maybe the letter writer should be aware when the pervy husband is in the office, and make it obvious that she is trying to keep a lot of space between them. I would say, 'outside the bubble please' to the maintance guy, so it was kind of joking, but there's no doubt about your blatant avoiding behaviour.

Posted by: Chrissy [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 1:04 PM

There are some people (often culturally biased) who are "close talkers" and I've learned to tolerate the ones who I actually like and/or do business with. I just know they are more comfortable talking and communicating that way. As part of my effort to better communicate I try to match (or at least not cringe away from) their style, even though its out of my comfort zone.

This guy isn't just a "close talker", he's creepy.

Posted by: moreta [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 23, 2008 1:41 PM

Being able to state your boundaries clearly and forcefully is a lesson that everyone should master -- whether they need use it inside or outside of the office. It can be dangerous to cower and avoid confrontation when what you really want to say is, "Stay away!". Kudos, Amy.

Posted by: smash at January 23, 2008 2:08 PM

Truth! There's all the difference in the world between "No-o, please?" and "NO!"


No means no, however it's phrased, but the closer you can get to the latter, the more guys (even stupid, insensitive ones) will understand it.

Posted by: lily at January 23, 2008 2:29 PM

While your advice is good, I think you guys have been hoaxed. Check out this url for more information on the letter writer and the redhead.

Posted by: jerry at January 24, 2008 6:40 AM

Hah...funny.

This one was real. FYI, here's much more to my e-mail exchange than I print in the paper. I usually write back a number of times to the person for additional information. I can tell a hoax letter from a real one, not that it necessarily matters. A problem is a problem. I answer letters for my column based on how interesting the issue is.

Posted by: Amy Alkon [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 24, 2008 6:46 AM

Russians are really really close talkers and if you make the mistake of backing away they either get offended or move even closer. Having spent most of my time in the states

I'm lost as to the bosses attitude. The boss is slightly safer due to her gender but not by much. Why would you open yourself up to a shit storm, especially since he isn't even a customer? Anyone have any ideas?

Posted by: vlad [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 24, 2008 7:03 AM

Sorry pushed post before I finished.

Having spent most of my time in the states I got used to having personal space. Every time I interact with new arrivals it takes me a while to get used to it.

Posted by: vlad [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 24, 2008 7:05 AM

The close talking maintenance man doesn't have the excuse of cultural difference on his side, as he was born & raised in NA. He's just pervy, thinks he's charming and hot, and that women find him irresistable! He's pretty easy to avoid.

The letter writer has a much more aggressive guy to deal with, so she has to decide how to set her boundaries. I'm kind of surprised that she hasn't learned how to do that yet. This guy is taking advantage of the fact the she's 'too nice'.

Posted by: Chrissy [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 24, 2008 8:35 AM

Well, in Texas you can gun someone down for stealing your pumpkin. http://urltea.com/2kjw

Obnoxious co-workers, not so much. But, hey, you can't have it all.

Posted by: Allison at January 24, 2008 9:43 AM

So the boss either has "battered housewife syndrome", or else she is one of those gutless cowards who would watch other people suffer so that she doesn't have to deal with confrontation. The problem is, you (the vic) aren't much better at it.

So if you cannot deal with it by slapping him in the face with an open stapler, putting your knee in his nuts, then you may as well sue. The cowardly boss would rather get rid of you for "not getting along" than actually dealing with this type of abuse.

Posted by: Smarty at January 24, 2008 10:18 AM

I agree with most of what Amy said. However, if the LW is in a lower level admin job or some other generic line of work and has some previous experience, if other remedies fail and she has to sue to change things, she could just leave this position off her resume in future.

As Bradley13 and Kim said, the boss needs to be reminded (in a tone of alliance) that she has to be the one with the big stick here. The boss should be saying to this guy, "You have put this business in danger of legal action, therefore you may not enter this property from now on, and if you do, it will be reported to the police as trespassing." I also wonder if the LW couldn't get a restraining order against the guy, possibly with legal guidance from the local rape crisis center. (And as Kari and Gail said, documenting everything is a must, whatever course she follows.)

Gail: The LW didn't actually say anything about hiding in a supply closet (unless something saying that was edited out for space). She said she hid "in the back room". It was Amy who brought in the supply closet, heightening the absurdity of it all to make a point as she does so well - that's what first really brought Amy's column to my attention and made it stand out from the others.

While bumping him hard with a chair might be momentarily satisfying, some guys might interpret this as flirting. Cold water would be even more fun, and send a clearer message, but could endanger the relationship with her co-worker; also, "oops!" is still not being direct about her right to be safe there. I would hope that people in this situation would find the spine to deal with it, if only so that such a guy doesn't get to do this to the _next_ woman unfortunate enough to work there.

I think talking to the co-worker is hopeless, since she blows off her husband's behavior as merely obnoxious rather than assaultive. Somehow she has normalized it in her own world view.

Posted by: San Francisco Girl at January 24, 2008 2:02 PM

I think part of the problem may be the LW's wish to avoid tension with her co-worker, Mrs. Married-a-Git. One way to resolve the problem would be to make her office mate a part of the solution. Very calmly tell the lady 'Look, I realize your husband is just teasing but I'm really uncomfortable with it. Could you please talk to him. Thanks'

There. No drama. And yes, the 'teasing' part is probably a blatant lie, but it keeps the blinkered spouse from getting defensive and should minimize future resentment.

If the husband's behavior doesn't change then at least she has set the groundwork for taking a firmer tone. Next time it happens, address the husband directly. 'I've asked your wife to clear this up, and now I'm telling you. I don't like these exchanges and it needs to stop right now.'

And if NONE of this works, take your log into your boss's office and very pleasantly say 'I'm keeping a record of _____ 's harassment and my steps to stop it. Could you please read and initial that for me when you get a chance? Thanks.'

After that my preference would be the spilled water *and* the tazer. But that may be just my own happy little daydream.

Probably.

Posted by: Rhuuah at January 24, 2008 11:39 PM

An alternative to the spilled water is a water pistol (squirt gun for US speakers). Advantage is that it works further away, it is even more demeaning because it is obviously intentional. No matter if the guy initially thinks it is a game, he will soon get fed up having a wet crotch. But fun though the water is, I would have to accept that a loud "Stay away from me!" and a diary with a copy to the boss would be more legal. The problem is that the straightforward legalistic approach is not good for interpersonal relations in the office or for future employment. It is an escalation, whereas the various forms of water tends to defuse the situation. Think of whistle-blowers. We all applaud their actions in bringing dirty secrets to public attention. But they still find it hard to get a job thereafter.

I often think I would like a front-mounted water cannon on my car - not enough to cause injury, just enough to let people know their behaviour is likely to attract proctologists.

Posted by: Norman [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 25, 2008 1:17 AM

Documenting everything is the way to go, and the LW should let the ignoranus* see her do it, because, of course, he'll be all, "hey, what are you doing?" and then she can smile sweetly and say, "Oh I always write it down when men do stupid stuff. It's for the book I'm writing. My lawyer agreed to proof-read it for me before I give it to my publisher."

*ignoranus, (n), someone who is both stupid and an asshole.

Posted by: Flynne [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 25, 2008 5:37 AM

What the heck is the co-worker's husband doing in the workplace so often anyway? That's unheard-of! I bet the boss of LW's immediate boss would be very interested to hear about this whole sorry situation. Let the chips fall where they may!

Posted by: Pussnboots at January 25, 2008 10:21 PM

"ignoranus"? very good! All you posters in Amy's Army are the best!

Posted by: Pussnboots at January 25, 2008 10:28 PM

"if the LW is in a lower level admin job or some other generic line of work and has some previous experience, if other remedies fail and she has to sue to change things, she could just leave this position off her resume in future."

I do not recommend this, unless maybe she's only been in the job for a week. Employers ask about gaps in resumes. What is she going to do, lie and say she was unemployed during that time period? If it comes out that she left off a recent job, it's going to look like she was fired for her own bad behavior. It will totally backfire. She's better off being honest.

Yes, I know the co-worker has convinced herself her husband's behavior is normal. But that's exactly why she needs waking up. Also, if this ever did come down to a lawsuit or to LW getting fired or hassled out of her job, it would be helpful to her case if she had done everything possible and within reason to stop the behavior. I know of what I speak here.

Um, and San Francisco Girl, does it matter whether she's hiding in a supply closet or a back room? The point is, she's hiding instead of being assertive and standing up for her right not to be pawed in the workplace. This makes me think that she may not have really made it clear to her boss or the guy that this behavior is unacceptable to her. I can tell you I'd NEVER be hiding under those circumstances!

Posted by: Gail [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 26, 2008 8:35 AM

I can tell you I'd NEVER be hiding under those circumstances!

And I'm guessing, because of that, you're a woman stuff like this doesn't happen to.

As for this from somebody else above: "I think part of the problem may be the LW's wish to avoid tension with her co-worker, Mrs. Married-a-Git"

...this all comes down to the kind of person she is, which is what I sought to help her change with this column.

So often, people write to me about these detailed problems, and they think the solution is within the details. Often or usually, it's a self-esteem issue. You have a strong self, you don't get used as everybody's footwipe, and then you don't have to write letters like the one above. See my comment in my answer about the fate of anybody who puts their grubby paws in my hair.

Posted by: Amy Alkon [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 26, 2008 8:46 AM

"like a retarded child with a hard on?"

thank you for a hearty laugh!! oh gawd that's a great visual.

Well, I hate be the rain on the parade, so to speak, but since I'm pretty much universally despised here anyway, I may as well let this one go.

I'm a little fed up with "retarded" being used as a synonym for "stupid." You are making real people with a real disability the butt of your "humor" and it's not funny. It's cruel and sick.

Posted by: Patrick at January 27, 2008 11:18 AM

"You are making real people with a real disability the butt of your "humor" and it's not funny." The word "retard and/or retarded" has fallen out of favor (and use) with the medical community so it's only real use is the vernacular. Your indignation is miss placed and pointless. The new term is "delayed" or a specific diagnosis. The feds and AMA are now changing the institution and government department to remove the word. Which is amusing in that this name change (which NT usually find more offensive) takes money away from disabled individuals. The individuals that require the most care and are hurt the most by the wasting of funds lack the ability to even understand the word. The indignation of NT on the behalf of the mentally ill/ developmentally delayed is hurting them far more then using the word YOU find so offensive.

Posted by: vlad [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 28, 2008 6:59 AM

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