Beautiful.

Right? If he hasn't got the cojones, no need for you to bring yours out. Onward to the next one, no looking back! If he does end up asking you out, and you say yes, tread very carefully.

This column constitutes some of the worst advice I've read on this site. I think this is because Miss Alkon is projecting her own taste in men onto the situation.

On the other hand, I am about to project my own experiences on the situation...

I can identify with the man in this story here. I too had a lot of difficulty asking women out. I don't think this is because of some lack of masculinity. My evidence for this is that I've been in quite a few relationships, some were long and some were short, and I'm currently in a relationship with a wonderful woman for almost the past two years. In each case the woman ended up making the first move (but once we were set up by a friend of mine). Clearly after that, everything proceeded normally and my inability to ask her out made no difference. My relationships did not end because of some weakness, but in two cases because I moved or she moved after college, or getting a new job. The shorter term relationships ended because of incompatability, which is the usual reason I think and not by itself evidence that difficulty asking a woman on a date is going to cause problems.

My point is: she should ask him out, it could go very well. I suppose there's some chance it won't and maybe he will be like Glover's passive agressive loser. But I think it's much more likely that he's just some guy who's a bit shy, especially with a woman he'll have to see every day if things go poorly, and once the initial move is made he'll be a great guy.

Amy has it down to the letter and with great prose. Something that would keep me in this holding-pattern situation is to consider that she is a co-worker, which could translate into harrassment. I flirt with a few ladies that I work with, but don't take it any further because of that fear, no matter how obvious it may be that they are into me.

You rocket scientist ever stop to think that maybe the guy knows better than to date a co-worker even though he may be very interested? You same cows who moan all day long in offices around the country about how men for some weird reason shy away from you at all costs. For some unknown reason that can't possibly have anything to do with your own behavior. No can't be that. Must be something wrong with men.

Try to drop your condescending double standards for one millisecond. We all know who gets charged with sexual harassement and who does not. Grow up. The legal gun is not pointed at your head.

Now that you have a man interested in you for the first time in 10 years it may be time for you to break away from the herd. You all glory in yourselves about how strong and independent you are now is your chance to show it. Go up to the guy and reassure him your not some closet feminazi fresh out of womyn studies waiting to strike out at all men for being male.

You may be shocked when he comes up with the idea of meeting up for drink later.

Jesus, Cybro, somebody piss in your coffee this morning?

I do agree with Amy's advice to let him do the asking. This is, of course, biased on my part. When I have done the asking, I have always been disappointed in the boy I ended up with, and I do mean boy.

That said, if she's going to stick with letting him make the first move, then it doesn't really matter whether he's reluctant because he's a wuss or because he's afraid of a lawsuit. He's not asking. Time to move on.

Woah cybro -- bitter much? If the guy, after working with the woman for several months now, hasn't even learned enough about her to decide whether she's a feminazi or not, then I'd say there is something wrong with him. Maybe just bad judgement or poor social skills (which are a unisex traits, BTW), but still…

While admittedly off-topic, the above response make me curious about the psychology around coming into someone else's web space and immediately disagreeing with such vitriol. Naturally as an advice/opinion page, there is bound to be disagreement and experiences on both sides of the debate, but starting at name calling doesn’t leave much room for discussion. Would the response be the same in a face-to-face conversation?

If I ever get done the other books I’ve got stacked on my waiting list, I may look into this one as well. The short description in the column reminds me of my ex-husband and I never could figure out how he could present himself as being fairly decent, but was actually a really angry asshole when you got to know him. Not that it matters anymore…thanks for another book reference, Amy!

Cybro, referring sarcastically to women as "rocket scientists", or moaning, condescending "cows" who attend "womyn studies" and finally have "a man interested in you for the first time in 10 years" might be part of the problem.

I've asked women out at work, and I've consistently received one of two responses -- "yes" or "no".

Getting turned down doesn't send me into spasmodic paroxysms of twitching rage or put me into a ninja suit in the bushes outside of her house.

So I have to ask if you've *actually* been charged with harassment and/or stalking, or if you're one of those guys who are so fearful of rejection that they cook up the inevitability of legal trouble in a boiling teapot of bile that sometimes inexplicably takes over for the brain?

Normally I agree with Amy, and definitely agree with letting the guy make the first move, but there are exceptions to every rule. If I hadn't put the moves on my husband first, we'd still be just friends. Some guys aren't going to make that move for whatever reason. Only you can judge the situation. By the way, my husband is very much the "man" in most situations. He isn't shy or anything like that, he was just very inexperienced with women.

Now, this guy the LW writes about? Not someone to make an exception to this rule for. Anyone who reacts like that to news that someone he's not dating has a date is bad news. Steer clear, this guy's got potential abuser written all over him - seems like a "sweetheart" doesn't mean he's not a closet nutbag.

"Anyone who reacts like that to news that someone he's not dating has a date is bad news. Steer clear, this guy's got potential abuser written all over him" That was my first and immediate thought. Once he or she shows that reaction get the hell away from them as fast as possible.

Everything else says nice guy who's shy. That red faced reaction smells of obsession, boundary issues, and general instability.

cybro: Why do I get the feeling that women avoided you with legit reason. Vitrol of that level will usually turn off all women. Even when said in jest (shit learned that one the hard way) it's usually a bad idea. Given that you actually mean it makes it worse.

I loved the "cows" bit.

Since when did asking someone for a drink constitute sexual harrassment?

I agree with vlad. As soon as I read the beet-red face reaction, I thought to myself, steer clear of this guy.

I think she shouldn't bother trying to date guys she works with because of the potential for lawsuits. Give it up already!

Since when did asking someone for a drink constitute sexual harassment?

Since women said it did. Honestly, I don't believe the vast majority of women would get upset over being asked out only. However, were I considering asking out a female co-worker that I had an interest in, without knowing her very well outside of work, I would take the possibility of a sexual harassment claim into consideration in making my decision.

She claims she's been flirting with him, but has he really been getting the message? I think for the most part, we men are terrible at reading women's signals. I recently read about one study where men were unable to correctly differentiate between signals of sexual interest and the "just being friendly" variety 70% of the time. So there's a good chance this guy isn't even getting the message, or he is and is just afraid he's misinterpreting it, erring on the side of safety - can't say I blame him.

I'm all for equality between men and women. That means equal responsibility as well as equal privilege. Equal responsibility means taking the initiative from time to time, and risk of rejection that goes with it, and asking us out. It seems pretty clear that he has an interest in her, and she knows that, and she really likes him and thinks he's a sweet heart, so what's the big deal? He probably doesn't realize that she likes him, so he sees asking her out as a bigger risk of rejection than she would see asking him out. I think Amy's wrong on this one...

"I think for the most part, we men are terrible at reading women's signals." Yes, but the guys reaction to her having a date with someone else shows that he is not ignorant of her intentions. Had he have been more hurt (saddened) as opposed to the anger response (beat red face) I'd agree.

I'm all for women asking men out.

"Just like you're tempted to do with the co-worker whose male role models are clearly less Navy SEAL than baby seal." BTW just cause a guy was trained to kill and may or may not have done so does not mean they have the slightest chance in hell of getting social cues. That has nothing to do with knowing the weak points on a battle tank. A womens reaction can be far more varied then the types of enemy armor you'd encounter. Experience in a combat situation does not translate well in most civilian social areas.

"I'm all for equality between men and women."

I understand WHY you said this, but, really, it doesn't make sense. I think there is more of a balance of the sexes than an equality of. Also,

"He probably doesn't realize that she likes him, so he sees asking her out as a bigger risk of rejection than she would see asking him out."

At my age, it is just not attractive to me when a man can't "realize" or "risk rejection." And I haven't had success with asking men out because, in my experience, the "balance" then becomes imbalanced, so it flops. Most of the guys I would be attracted to long term would be somewhat emasculated by my asking anyway.

I just want to say this, and it's gonna sound conceited: I'm a pretty good catch monitarily, emotionally, fun-factor-ily, conversationally, bootiliciously.....but I rarely date. I will pretty much date anyone who is interesting and, of course, legal. Most people don't interest me, and the ones who do are generally attached, and I don't go there. I live in a very small town and because of my job I'm pretty well-known, but/and I considered intimidating (I've been told) to many men because of my position, and probably my personality as well. As a result, I rarely get asked out by men around here. Last week, a guy who I have run into from time to time got into a pickle with his work. I lent him a hand, just being friendly. A day after that, he stopped by my office "just to say hey," but as he was leaving he asked me to lunch for the next day. He was so smooth and confident about it, I couldn't say no. Then, the way he got my number in this oh-so-natural-very-cool way made me think about him all night long. I was so looking forward to the lunch date, which is rare for me because I had decided I didn't want to date for another year or so. Anyway, the date was great, we never stopped talking, and we are going to go out this weekend. People have already called me asking me if it was true that I was seen out with a guy one-on-one. (Yes, the town is really that small.) Not that it matters, but the guy is paralized from the waist down. Still, he takes life by the balls and seeks out what he wants, and I'm sorry, but that is more attractive in a man than one who can barely sputter out, "Woouuulddd Yooouu...." and then wants me to finish. I guess some people find the shy-type endearing, but that's just too much trouble to me.

Gotta say you struck a cord with me with this column Amy. I vivdly remember being "the guy" in a few relationships. I hated it. They couldn't even man-up enough to do anything but whimper when I dumped them. And I can only blame myself - I asked each and every one of those losers out.

Maybe asking him out would be enough to get him over the hump. It is the workplace and even the most ballsy of guys have to think twice (or more) about asking someone out there. I've heard some real horror stories about women who pull out the 'sexual harassment' card far too cavalierly.

"Just like you're tempted to do with the co-worker whose male role models are clearly less Navy SEAL than baby seal."

I absolutely love that line! My husband is a shy, reserved individual, but he was man enough to call me up and ask me out on a date. We even worked together at the time. I would steer clear of this guy because there are too many red flags!

Vlad, I'm fairly certain that Amy wasn't being literal with the Navy SEAL/baby seal comment. She's not saying in the slightest that women should look for men who are trained to kill, as oposed to adorable little baby animals that dwell near water.

I'm fairly certain that was a fun way of pointing out the difference between a man who'll ask you out with some sort of confidence, and a man who's only HEARD of dates via rough description.

Everything else you've said in this thread, however, is right on the money.

Oh, and there's supposed to be an "also" somewhere in the second "I'm fairly certain".

Go, me.

"Vlad, I'm fairly certain that Amy wasn't being literal with the Navy SEAL/baby seal comment. " Oh I know all I'm saying is that being a "manly man" balls to the wall and fearless in most aspects doesn't mean women still won't scare the shit out of you.

Just cause asking a women out makes one shake with fear and anxiety doesn't mean your a wet blanket (or baby seal) in other aspects. While I was single asking a girl out scared the ever living shit out of me. On weekends I'd do subsurface welding at a power plant and see nothing remotely frightening.

For Bill, who says he can't ask women out but it isn't for lack of masculinity: My boyfriend and my friend Nancy's husband are introverts to the max, but both managed to man up and ask us out and call us. It's not "shyness" that prevents a guy from asking women out, and women should not ask men out, as there are biological reasons (and psychological reasons) men need to do the pursuing. You can tell us the reason you don't ask women out -- the reason within you -- didn't come into play in the relationship, and guess what: I don't believe it for a minute.

PS Is it Glover's experience dating men that gives him this opinion as well? I believe he's heterosexual and married, but perhaps I should look for him in the Manhole or The Ramrod on weekends?

"didn't come into play in the relationship" Possibly but the fact that asking women out was not part of the relationship I can't think of any instances. There may have been causation that I'm not aware of but I'm just basically scared stupid to ask women out.

Once I'm past the invitation for the first date no problems what so ever.

About ten years ago, I was working at a large, well known financial corporation. A woman in my department was having sex on a regular basis with our boss. A guy in another department politely asked her if she’d like to go for coffee sometime. She complained to the Human Resources department and they promptly gave him a stern talking to and a written warning. Ho, ho, ho - what a fucking loser!

At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no. Finally, she complained to HR. He was fired and banned from ever working for that corporation again in any capacity. Additionally, he is, of course, unable to receive a recommendation from the company at which he worked for fifteen years so his working life and career are finished. Ha, ha, what a fag!

But of course, a man who hesitates to ask a woman at work out is nutless, a wimp, spineless, loser, etc. And don't forget to call them Goddesses, wimp!

American women are a collective supernova of massive arrogance and bitchiness. They are as mentally balanced and fair as Idi Amin and just as attractive. And it's all mens' fault because men are so inherently inferior. Bitches, you deserve to be alone.

Suggest you read Glover's book, and just do it. Also, don't take it personally if they say no, just as a sign to move on to the next. Ideally, your self-worth should not be connected to whether other people approve of you. (This is why it's called "self-worth" not "other people like me-worth.")

DF, life calls for judgement, first of all.

Second, because the HR department comes down on somebody for asking somebody out once doesn't mean they're correct or abiding by the law. The law is about persistent contact after the person makes it verbally clear or clear in writing that the attention is unwanted. If there's a corporate policy against fraternization that's different. Then any asking out is prohibited.

You seem to be overflowing with rage against women. Some women are bitchy and arrogant. Is that really the problem or is it that you're too dense to know which ones to avoid?

I'm very sweet to my boyfriend, and have never said a mean word to him. He doesn't deserve it, first of all, and you get the relationship you create. If you weren't so convinced that all women are bitches, you might look at women as individuals and find a woman like me, who'll treat you like she never forgets that she loves you.

I know this is an advice column, not fair and balanced reporting, but really let's not forget we're getting some heavily editorial comment from LW: "still flirting," "beet red," "wierd," "frustrated."

Other reasons he may not want to ask her out:

1. He's not attracted to her.
2. He doesn't want to ask out someone from the workplace.
3. He's involved with someone.
4. He's gay.

Of course, the advice remains the same. She shouldn't pursue him any further. I just think its funny that so many are ready to brand the guy as a smoldering furnace of passive rage.

Piss. Can't believe I misspelled "weird." Bye bye, credibility.

If either party in a flirtatious semi-relationship desires that things go farther, what's wrong with saying, "I'm walking over to Starbucks, wanna come along?" Chat over coffee and get a better sense of the person outside of work. If it's a go, then consider the sexual harassment issues, the dating a coworker issues, and any other issues you may have - then make a decision!

If she wants him to ask her out, ask him to walk over to Starbucks (or, preferably, Peet's) with her. She may be able to get a better sense of how psycho this guy is in a casual non-work-constrained interaction.

His beet red anger may have been at himself for not "manning up" and asking her out. Or, he may have been upset at the way she badmouthed her date (if she did).

In general, I agree with Amy; if a guy's interested (even a painfully shy guy), he'll find a way to ask. However, sometimes women give off mixed signals (at least in the guy's perspective - "Frasier" did an episode about this). In a co-worker relationship, misreading signals can be career suicide, so guys in that situation may hesitate to ask.

She needs to find a way to let him know he's been pre-approved for the loan.

At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no.

DF, I don't care how many times your grandfather asked your grandmother out and how many years they've been married since then. These days, if you ask a coworker out and that coworker says no, drop it. "Repeatedly" means that guy was a dumbass.

I'm not saying he deserved permanent banishment, but he drove down a mountain road wearing a blindfold and, despite repeatedly bumping the guardrail, he pushed the accelerator. The crash was inevitable.

"American women are a collective supernova of massive arrogance and bitchiness."

Holy crap, DF! As a Canadian woman I feel kind of left out. Clearly my northern sisters and I have some work to do.

"At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no." Then why did he not stop? In this case it was harassment and she had every right to report him. If he asks her out and she says no then he should have been smart enough to leave her alone.

The first story sucks and it does happen but just cause one women is bat shit crazy doesn't mean all women are. Also before you ask out a women at work take some time to sniff around. Trying to snag the bosses play thing is a supremely stupid move.

Amy - "You seem to be overflowing with rage against women." And how would you characterize calling men nutless wimps and losers as you repeatedly do in your columns? That is, no doubt, merely the voice of a "proud", "assertive", "strong" woman. Excuse me, I meant "goddess".

Talking about what an HR department should theoretically do after the fact is one thing. Living through what actually happens is something else. Women get all kinds of latitude in situations where men get the workplace equivalent of the death penalty. Yeah, no shit I'm angry.

Notice how all the responses so far blame the men in these situations for not being "smart enough" to avoid getting royally hosed. Ah, yes, another failing of men. They're just so dumb, aren't they?

Women have been brainwashed to believe they are better than men and, perhaps even worse than that, so have men. Most guys I know are so beaten down from being told their entire lives that they are stupid, evil brutes that they pretty much believe it and do whatever their wives/girlfriends tell them to. Look, more and more guys are opting out of this "relationship" horseshit and just getting sex and that trend's only going to grow. A woman may need a man like a fish needs a bicycle but a man needs a woman like he needs a bleeding hole in his head.

"The first story sucks and it does happen but just cause one women is bat shit crazy doesn't mean all women are." The proceeding comment was basically don't date bat shit crazy women and don't even go near them at work. How do you tell if a women is bat shit crazy, I don't' know thus I don't' touch anything at work ever.

DF,

I really hate what happened to you, but you're slowly killing yourself in your rage. Also, if you have read a lot of what Amy writes concerning men, you would know she is not a man basher. Did you read her blog earlier this week about females who falsely accuse males of rape? Her belief is that the dip shit girls should get the exact amount of time the man would have gotten had he been found guilty. I'm sorry about your shitty experiences with women, but come on! Do you really believe all women are the same?

DF writes:
And how would you characterize calling men nutless wimps and losers as you repeatedly do in your columns?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any of those examples.

Maybe you were thinking of those columns where I defend men against myths of the feminists, rail against paternity fraud against men, and talk about how male sexuality is very visual, and that isn't wrong, just different from female sexuality? Yeah, I'm a real man-hater, and I guess those men's movement sites that link to me and thank me for being fair to men are passing around LSD to every commenter.

If I'm some special friend to women alone, how come so many feminists seem to hate me and try to get me fired? In fact, a women's studies class in Pennsylvania had it as their class assignment to write letters to the editor to get my column dumped from the paper. Oh yeah, and Glenn Sacks, a men's movement blogger and columnist, asked me if we could start cross posting occasional entries on each other's sites -- a great idea I want to do after the current website construction problems are worked out. Hmmm, do you think it's because I'm so hateful and demeaning to men? Or, perhaps, because I'm the opposite?

I blame lots of people for not living consciously -- gender isn't a factor. It's much easier to say "All men are assholes" or "All women are psycho bitches" than to take responsibility for looking at who you get involved with instead of just closing your eyes and jumping in and hoping it all works out okay.

I think Glover is terrific because he's working to undo the bad things feminism has done to men -- including giving wimpy men the idea that they can get away with not behaving like men. He explains why men should be asking women out, asking for what they want, standing up for themselves instead of being pushed around, and shows them how to get to those points.

I have an amazing boyfriend because I'm one of those people who looked very intently at everyone she dated. I spent much of my 30's alone, going on one date with a whole lot of guys. Because I was fine being alone (and in fact, don't believe in marrriage or living with somebody), I was able to just be alone until I met my boyfriend five-plus years ago. He's spent days revamping my website, and it isn't because I asked him to, or because he has to, and it probably isn't because I'm some psycho bitch, huh? There is always that possibility that I put something in his coffee - maybe that same stuff they put in the comments form at GlennSacks.com to make the guys there think I have a fair approach to relationships between men and women.

Whaddya think, Socrates?

They're right DF, you've got alot of hostility there. Look, I've spent alot of time overseas, enough to see definite differences in between the way women in the U.S. treat men, vs the way women in Europe treat men. I'll be the first to agree, in Europe things are alot better, I was spoilt by Europeans. *l* But just because the broad strokes of the differences are true, does not mean every strand of the brush is identical. Alot of women in the U.S. are perfectly rational, appreciate the differences between sexes, and like nothing more than for their men to be MEN. Take the letter writer, she just wants the man to be a man, he refuses to be, and asks Amy if she should take the bull by the horns. The answer is just the kind any man would appreciate, let him take action by asking, or take action, even if that means he does nothing. Maybe it is because he's had some women like you describe, and his concern for career is greater than his desire for her company.

Sure alot of the problem may rest with women who feel so threatened by men that they complain to the authorities when one asks them out, making all other men a little bit more paranoid. But a little time around someone should give any reasonable man an idea whether someone is an HR addict or not. Does she spell "women" womyn? Leave her be. Does she talk about her days as a feminist scholar before she gave up and joined the patriarchy? Leave her be. Does she complain long and loud about how every man has screwed her over, or how her past boyfriends had no sense of humor about her public insults? Leave her be.

Does she touch your arm, and laugh at your jokes, ask what your weekend was like, and glance over at you from her desk for no obvious reason, and when (if) she discusses exes, she can and does say good things about them? She's not a psycho, she's at least a little interested...ASK HER OUT. If she says no, well so what, that might not even mean "never", ask out another, still friends with the one who turned you down, maybe ask her out again a few months down the line. (not every day).

Exercise some judgement, and you won't be nearly so bitter, don't be so bitter, you might attract someone worth attracting. Don't treat her like a she's a harpy for having a vagina, you won't be the man that feminazis bitch about to no end. The way I see it DF, your bitterness and rage is just what feminists crow about all the time. *L* Its ironic, you've become just what the ones you hate say you are.

Just keep a few things in mind:

All women are not sadistic feminazis, just some are. Leave that "some" alone, let them die bitter, angry, and alone in their old age, that's revenge enough if you need it.

Some women LIKE men, so BE one, and do what you can to be the BEST of what makes a man a man. Courtesy, decency, a spine...you know the characteristics I speak of.

Go for the women who LIKE those things.

Take some time and do a little self examination, you wrote with bitterness about how it is "always the man's fault" you know full well its not always the man's fault, some just make it look that way for their own sick agendas. However just because it isn't ALWAYS, doesn't mean it NEVER is either.

Sometimes men can do wrong, realize that, realize that you are one of those men, capable of doing proper or improper in equal measure according to the choices you yourself make. From what you wrote, I assume you've wound up with some real psychos or had one do a real number on you growing up.

So how about you just take some time off the whole thing and do a total reevaluation of yourself, even perhaps get some therapy to work on your anger issues. Then when you're sane again and can look at a woman without foaming at the mouth, ask if she'd like to have a cup of coffee with you. If she doesn't, well you know what, she's replaceable, rejection by one is not rejection by the entire gender, go up to another one and give it a shot.

I have been in the guy's position before. Fishing off the company dock is always a risky idea. While it is rare that someone gets in a whole bunch of trouble without asking for it - the chances are far from trivial and the consquences huge.

"It's not "shyness" that prevents a guy from asking women out, and women should not ask men out, as there are biological reasons (and psychological reasons) men need to do the pursuing." Casual observation says that the man pursuing is the most common event though far from required. Could you explain why you hold this believe?

Please don't boost Mr. Glover. He does have a strong case on an extremely small number of people that he tries to apply to alot of people (based on my observations). If you are really a fan of his, he does hold some classes at Discover U in Seattle (and possibly others). If you really think that the guy is one that Mr. Glover does write about then that is different though that to me would seem like a huge assumption.

I get a new boyfriend every couple of months, my new one didnt hesistate to jump out of his car to run down the street and get my number (I was with a couple of friends, and we were were outside a club). He thought I was that cute that he had to have my number. I still cant believe it. He didnt give up, he took me out on dates, and he called when he said he would. He pursued, and pursued and in the end he got what he wanted, a budding relationship with me. An actual relationship with me is hard to get and he just won me over. I've never heard him complain about how hard he had to try and that's another aspect that won me over. But if you must now I would loooove to be able to ask men out, if it worked. If I was a gay guy I'd have no prob. asking men out, and if i was a lesbian I'd have no prob. asking women out. Problem is I'm a heterosexual woman and doing the asking does not work cuz our monkey brains arent set up for it.

It's not an "extremely small number of people." There are many, many guys who take refuge in the ridiculous notions of feminism that men and women are the same. Also, many men who are passive and passive-aggressive. Glover's book is great, and I frequently get notes of gratitude from men I've recommended it to.

I have to go to bed now, but I've written about this numerous times, about the evolutionary origins of our behavior (we still have very old psychology), and how the advent of the women's movement hasn't changed our genetic makeup. Women in the Pleistocene had to be very careful about who they had sex with because pregnancy was the cost -- an even more enormous cost back in those days. They had to be sure the guy would stick around and be a provider. It was a survival issue. Men, on the other hand, could fuck anything with legs and an opening between then, and walk away. So, due to this evolutionary history, women evolved to be the pursuees and men, the pursuers, and men tend to devalue women who come to them too easily, especially women who chase them. It's encoded in our genes.

Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't. What they love is not being rejected. Women asking men out sets up a bad balance in the relationship.

Read David Buss' Evolution of Desire for more on this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046500802X?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=046500802X

Purple Pen, I loved your story. I went out with the guy who gave me the frog in my old advice column photo because he was adorably persistent like that. It means a lot, too, that my boyfriend, who is quiet and reclusive, asked me out for a drink after we met (we had Orange Crush at the Farmer's Market for hours) and even grabbed me and kissed me when he walked me to my car after we met. I didn't come down for days.

That's what being a man is, not festering for months and not asking a girl out. That's just pathetic.

Rummaging through my collective experiences, I have recalled a time when I pursued a lady (ok, she was a hot 22 year old, me 33). We had been friendly to each other for awhile, but I held my restraint until a few months ago. I asked her out and she said she was glad I asked. Being that we knew each other fairly well before the date, I didn't hesitate to gently bring her toward me, while sitting side by side enjoying wine at a park picnic table, to kiss her several times. All I could say after that is "I'm stoked"!! I felt like a teenager again. After a few more kisses to wrap-up the evening (and even a foot massage) I thought we were all good. After a few days with no response from her, I met her at a party and I asked if something was wrong. She said she didn't want a boyfriend. Ok. End of story. As much as I am into her, I wasn't going to press the situation. She must have had valid reasons (but it would have been nice to know what exactly). So, on it goes to show, you have to keep pursuing your own desire, regardless of the outcome.

Let this be your mantra -- Stop hating and start mating.

Stop hating and start mating.

Stop hating and start mating.

I think vlad may have a point about the co-worker's anger at hearing the LW talk about a date. He may be angry at himself: "Crap, I had my chance, and I blew it!" I've been that guy. Lesson learned. However, in the end, I don't know that it's productive to speculate: The LW is looking for a certain kind of guy, and the co-worker evidently is not that kind of guy, and that's that.

DF and others, I will testify that Amy is an unabashed champion of men's rights and the male role in society. And she's stood up for that many times here and in her blog. I will say this one thing (look out, here it comes!): Amy, I think you're still underestimating the sexual harassment situation. The piece you are missing is that the law allows, and most HR departments encourage, third-party complaints. Suppose that Amy and I work for the same company and I ask her out. Some other woman (I'm going to pick a name at random from the frequent commenters: kg, will you act this part for a moment?) overhears it or finds out about it somehow, and decides that the idea of my asking Amy out is offensive to her. According to the law, kg can file a complaint against me even though she was not a party to the interchange. And Amy's reaction to my proposal doesn't matter: even if she thinks I'm the hottest guy on the planet, it doesn't matter as long as kg says she is offended.

This isn't a theoretical either. I have in fact been subject to company punishment based on just such a third-party complaint. (And to make it worse, the complaintant was eavesdropping on a private conversation through a locked door.) What I learned from that experience:

1. Accusation is proof. The person accused is not permitted to present a defense.

2. There is no expectation of privacy at the office, anywhere, for any reason. Anybody can spy on you. (When I asked how managers were supposed to have salary review sessions in their offices, that just got me in more trouble.)

3. Asking a female co-worker to go to lunch is harassment.

4. However, if you're going to lunch, and a female co-worker asks to go with you, and you say no, that's also harassment. (Part of the complaint against me was based on this.)

5. If your wife/girlfriend/female relative of any kind is sufficiently attractive, than having a framed photo of her on your desk is harassment.

I was a rising star in that company before that, but that incident was basically the end of my career with them. I spent three more years there, being passed over repeatedly for promotions, not consulted on areas where I had more experience than anyone else in the company, and being unable to get funding to go to training or conferences, before I finally decided I'd had enough and I went elsewhere. Fortunately, I was able to start with a clean slate at my next job, and I'm a pretty senior person in my speciality now. But if that one company had decided to turn the matter over to police, or if the employee had decided to file a suit, or any number of things that could have caused the complaint to go public, that would have been the end of my career. For real.

So even though 99% of all the women at a given company may be entirely decent, reasonable women, it only takes one bad apple to get a lot of men in a lot of trouble. And that one bad apple doesn't have to be anyone that the man actually has contact with.

I've got only one word for the girl.....NEXT.

I know Amy's a huge, huge proponent of men always making the first move -- to the point where it seems just a tad pathological. Here's my perspective: I'm happily married, and have been for 13 years -- to a man I asked out on the first date, and on whom I put the moves on that first date. Where does that fall under Amy's philosophy?

I know, I know, most men don't like aggressive women. I don't give a damn. I *am* an aggressive women. It would have done me zero good to pretend I wasn't because that's what evolution dictates -- just to end up with a man who didn't like aggressive women. If there was one man out there who loved aggressive women, that was the guy I needed to find. I found him.

It boggles my mind that a woman as straightforward as Amy can't see the value in that.

I know, I know, most men don't like aggressive women. I don't give a damn. I *am* an aggressive women. It would have done me zero good to pretend I wasn't because that's what evolution dictates -- just to end up with a man who didn't like aggressive women. If there was one man out there who loved aggressive women, that was the guy I needed to find. I found him.

I'm in complete agreement, Dana. In any case, strong men don't need to have weak women around them to feel strong, and aren't intimidated by a woman asking for what she wants. I think whether or not evolution dictates something or whether it's just the theory du jour of evolutionary psychologists and sociobiologists is too big an issue to cover here, so I won't go into it. In general I like Amy's advice and that's why I come back here each week to read it. But I'm just mystified by her insistence that men MUST act a certain way to be real men, and women MUST act a certain way because their genes dictate it, because of some overgeneralized insistence that life must have been a certain way during the Paleolithic Era.

You can choose to behave in a way that means you won't have a wide variety of choices of men. I'm a strong personality, and I have no qualms about approaching anybody about anything, really, man or woman. But, there's what you want to do impulsively and what best serves your needs.

Moreover, I've had problems over the years intimidating men, and not because I'm some screeching shrew, but because, as my friend Wally said, "You're happy, you go to Paris all the time, you do something you love, etc....what can a guy give you?"

There are exceptions, Quiz, to any "rule," but if you know what behavior seems to be the most successful and why, you can still choose to behave in another way. It's just that you should know what the consequences are likely to be.

I, for, example, slept with guys very quickly, knowing that it could cause them to bolt. I wasn't desperate for a relationship, and kind of thought any guy for me is a guy who should get over it. I spent most of my 30's alone, but I didn't think fate was mean to me, I thought I was a little slutty and a bit hard to place (due to personality/job/general happiness, the specifics of what I look for in a boyfriend, not needing a boyfriend enough to settle for less, and being tall).

PS As "aggressive women" go, I'm guessing I have a lot of you topped -- just see what I do to cell phoners and other rudesters in public. Are you "aggressive" in your relationship -- like you bark orders at your boyfriend? There are those guys who are into that sort of thing.

"Aggressive woman" is, yet again, a compliment of sorts that often translates to "poor impulse control." Being strong is knowing when an application of strength is needed and not using a hammer when a safety pin will do.

I have read the book and is in fact quite good. But I feel that we may all be over generalizing about the man in question.

Would it be best for the man to ask her out? Probably. Is he a weak willed craven and passive aggressive asshole because he doesn't? That's up in the air.

"Apparently, his face went beet red and he got all "weird."" As others have said, it may really just be because he was pissed at himself because he thought he missed his opportunity. Shy guys like this do tend to beat themselves up for not being aggressive as they would like to be.

I say take a chance ask him for a drink. Assure him that the guy you're dating isn't serious and that you're dating around (after over hearing you about your date he will assume he has no chance unless you specifically tell him otherwise - don't beat around the bush). Make it obvious you're interested. Guys like this do not pick up on subtlety - assume he's going to miss 70% of what you're doing. If you still like him after the drink, well then great. If you don't move on.

This way you'll never think, "oh what might have been."

No, I do not bark orders at my husband, nor does he bark orders at me. But I'm straightforward and direct, I don't do any girlish shilly-shallying or hinting around or soft-peddling my opinions. If I have a problem, a reservation, an issue, a want, or a need, I come out and say so. I say it politely, but I say it directly. He never has to guess where I stand. This is perhaps his favorite quality of mine -- he calls me a "no bullshit woman." He knows there are no booby traps.

I don't pretend to be dumber than I am, nor weaker than I am. I don't defer. I'm unafraid to talk to strangers, to speak in public, to publicly declare my opinions. I've never been willing to make myself into a mirror that reflects men at twice their size, though I like many men very much, and have had a lot of good male friends over the years.

And sexually, I have always been more than willing to make the first move -- I liked it. I found it fun, I found it exciting. It was my favorite game. Of course, after being together 18 years (we dated for 2 1/2 and lived together for another 2 1/2 before we married) seduction pretty much consists of "You wanna mess around?" But I'm still perfectly willing to be the one who says it.

Clearer?

Amy - "Sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any of those examples."

Uh, hello?...In your response to the letter this thread is based on you say the man in question "needs prosthetic testicles." There are numerous other examples throughout your website but there's no point in linking to them if you can't acknowledge factual reality. That's great if you feel you're pro, or at least not anti, men and you're getting backpats from some guy's website and validation from the feminist Taliban at some womens' studies department. I don't think you're necessarily a "man-hater" but, like 99% of women, you will use our pc society and the rule of law to benefit yourselves and "womens' issues" when the urge arises.

To the point of the letter: Reread Cousin Dave's post a few times and try to be honest with yourself about how you would feel under those circumstances. That kind of environment is not the exception, it's the rule. Men's entire careers and lives hang by the thread of womens' whims - women who know how things are rigged and have no qualms at all about taking adantage of it. And Cousin Dave got out of the situation relatively lightly. However, since you are not the one taking the risk and/or absorbing the cost, it really doesn't matter to you, does it? I'd love to see you talk to the red-faced guy in the letter. "Hey, whatsamatter with you boy? You a fag? You need some fake nuts?" LOL.

I remembered another work anecdote that happened at the same place where the coworker was screwing our boss. Two of my coworkers based in different cities started dating and then got engaged. The engagement went sour and the woman tried to get the company to fire the guy for "sexual harassment". Even though her effort was ultimately unsuccessful, it was a nightmare for the guy and she, an equal partner in the relationship, paid no price whatsoever for her conduct. Amy, I'm sorry but you really don't understand what you're talking about.

The risk/reward relationship for an office romance is not favorable for men. It is probably neutral at best for women.

Rule 1: Don't date co-workers. When the relationship goes sour, at least one of you will end up losing a job.

So far as having to "man up", well, there's risk there too. How much is too much? If I ask once and get a "meh", can I ask again? If I ask and get laughed at, do I have an actionable claim?

Since men tend not to be good in the "take a hint" department, all we're really asking for is a deliberate and unmistakable showing of interest on your part. There's a fine line between a casual flirt and just being a nice girl. And a lot of misunderstandings could be avoided if men could reasonably expect women to be more forthcoming.

However we cannot. Which is why I don't date. It's too much like work.

"In your response to the letter this thread is based on you say the man in question "needs prosthetic testicles." Being willy nilly and wishy washy has the same risks as being direct. She can call harassment at any and all times when ever she wants. As per your claim and unfortunately reality. So in the guys case either make the damn move or forget about it, IE stop flirting and get back to work. This is very different from becoming a rude ass hole, but got or don't go. The question of nut vs no nuts is be decisive. There to much risk in dating her then stop flirting, if you think it's worth the risk (I'm assuming he does) then just do it cause you can just as easily get screwed if she's freaking nuts.

Does the system need to be changed? Yes. Do you want to be one standing in front of the proverbial tank and hope it backs down? Don't know but I sure as hell don't.

"Even though her effort was ultimately unsuccessful, it was a nightmare for the guy and she, an equal partner in the relationship, paid no price whatsoever for her conduct." You have no way of knowing that now do you. She's not going to tell you that she took a hit promotion wise on her next review.

"validation from the feminist Taliban at some womens' studies department." Oh please tell me this is a cheap attempt at sarcasm. Amy's anti special interests most womens studies department would brand her "cock serving traitor". Yes I made the mistake of taking one of their high level courses.

I met my husband at work, first we were work buddies, then best friends, after a long time lovers. I initiated each step of the way. My husband is all man, no problem there. He tells me not to hint about anything, because he doesn't get it, just come right out and say what's on my mind. Believe me it's true. He was shy, but once he got the idea he took over.

If LW really is interested, ask him out for coffee or lunch in a neutral place. Be frank and honest about your feelings. If he doesn't feel the same way, you can get on with your life.

DF, go back and reread Amy's answer. She says, "he needs prosthetic testicles," not "all men everywhere need prosthetic testicles, because I am a woman and have stolen your real ones."

Ultimately, the advice is not about helping a man deal with sexual harassment in the workplace: It's about helping a woman decide to move on, and all this anger is springing from something that might not even be a factor in this situation. DF, if you disagree with the advice, that's one thing, but your blind rage toward women is making it difficult to take you seriously.

Thanks, Monica. I'm guessing DF is one of those people who goes through life identifying as a victim, which is easier than taking responsibility for one's choices.

Amy Says:

"Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't."

Clearly they must all be liars and you know better... I'll spread the word that you know what these men are feeling better than they do.

Amy, you and I had a discussion about these topics a while back which I am sure you remember.

I personally don't care what your personal opinion is on whether or not you prefer to be asked or to do the asking... you have a right to that opinion.

What you do not have the right to do is declare that when men say they enjoy being asked out too that they are being dishonest.

We are all the arbiters of our own feelings and frankly you have no right to universally declare that all men secretly hate being asked out... on that score you are 100% wrong... along with many other things related to the interaction of men and women.

You have a very black and white view of things... and as we should all learn as we grow up, life is filled with shades of gray.

If you cannot possibly fathom that some guy out there of the billions who exist on the planet earth can possibly enjoy being asked out... then your understanding of men is too monocular.

Men are a diverse group with many different views and perspectives... that means that while many would not enjoy being asked out... there are also many who would.

It goes hand in hand with the diversity dictated by genetics... our population isn't homogenous yet... that means there is still variability amongst men and women... it would be nice if you could acknowledge that reality.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject as I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

I personally see no harm in this lady asking the guy to grab a cup of coffee with her after work... but that's because I don't adhere to "the rules".

The following is nitpicky but it is a personal pet peeve. Your excessive use of ellipses undermines the credibility of your opinions by making each statement dissipate rather than ending in a decisive manner. It makes it seem like you are unsure of precision of your own conclusions.

Humans have similarities in their physiology and psychology, which makes it possible for me to generalize reasonably. There are anomalies, but men have testosterone, and evolved to have certain behavior, and there's a behavior that generally works best, and it's women flirting to let me know they're interested, and then waiting for the men to ask them out; ie, show interest and the courage to do so. It's an acid test of sorts. Basically, a guy who's too big a weenie to ask you out shouldn't be rewarded with a date. This isn't about fairness, it's about weeding out the weak ones (weak candidates) from the herd.

I think your conclusion about this situation is either right on or completely off. This is one of those situations where she’ll never know the truth unless she takes the initiative to ask him out. I have dated the “shy nice guy” before that turned out to be a self involved woman hater and I am currently engaged to the “shy nice guy” that turned out to really just be shy and nice. He and I knew each other through mutual acquaintances for two years and it was obvious to everyone he liked me. Our friends would constantly joke about it and he would always flirt with me, but he would never ask me out. Finally one day I asked him if he wanted to go out that weekend and he said yes. It was if I had open a flood gate. All he needed was the green light from me and suddenly he was pursuing me with a vengeance.

As I said before I have also dated the guy that really was just a creep and at one point had to threaten to call the police to stop him from leaving me threatening voicemails. There is no way of really knowing unless you are willing to take the chance.

"I'm guessing DF is one of those people who goes through life identifying as a victim, which is easier than taking responsibility for one's choices."

Amy, that's not a counter-argument. That's weaseling your way out with an insult. So who's playing the victim?

By the way, have you ever noticed that all of your critiques of men come down to "he's a weakling!"? Perhaps you should do a little "work" on that, eh?

You haven't addressed Cousin Dave's post at all. If you find everything I say too abhorrent to reply to, how about CD?

Monica - "Ultimately, the advice is not about helping a man deal with sexual harassment in the workplace...."

Well, you're absolutely right about that. It doesn't exist as an issue for women at work, therefore - it doesn't exist. It's like someone walking on a regular sidewalk telling someone in a minefield to quit being such a whiner.

Women fail to understand the depth of the sexual harrassment/pc quagmire men have to operate in. Even worse, to the degree they do understand it, they think of it as justifiable revenge on the "cockman oppressors" that are men and, like most people, they are perfectly happy to exploit the advantages the system offers them.

Still Interested: Issue a coffee invitation. If he says no, move on.

DF: You seem so personally invested in this issue that I'm starting to wonder if you might be the co-worker Still Interested wrote to Amy about.

Look, we could all go on forever trying to guess why the co-worker won't ask her out. Maybe he is afraid of falling into the "sexual/pc quagmire" you talk about, and maybe with good reason. Maybe not. Who the heck knows?

Yes, there are women who take advantage of workplace sexual harassment policy, but not ALL women. Yes, there are men who sexually harass women in the workplace, but not ALL men. Yes, there are men who have been penalized unfairly. There are also men who have never been penalized but should have been. Yes, it must be confusing for some men, but its confusing for some women too. Yes, life is not always fair.

Instead of offering advice or insight to Still Interested, and bouncing ideas around, its suddenly all about your world view.
Making offensive blanket statements that lump all women into the "bitch" basket is as unproductive and untrue as lumping all men into the "asshole" category. Its sometimes tempting to say "all men are assholes" but its an unfair generalization. Just reading most of the posts here from guys indicates its also not true.

Its also pointless to go on accusing and hounding Amy. Speaking for myself its getting boring. If her responses upset you this much stop reading them.

Amen to that, Loopy!

Hey DF, Jeff and Poo-Martin just called. You're wanted back at the clubhouse -- it's your turn in the barrel.

Jessica Says:

"The following is nitpicky but it is a personal pet peeve. Your excessive use of ellipses undermines the credibility of your opinions by making each statement dissipate rather than ending in a decisive manner. It makes it seem like you are unsure of precision of your own conclusions."

First of all it is "nitpicky".

Second of all, when the only thing someone can find to criticize about what someone has to say is the nature by which it is delivered, it usually means they can find no fault in the content and as a result try to come up with other methods to discredit conclusions they have no logical grounds to attack.

If you want a decisive statement here it is:

Men are a heterogeneous group filled with members of divers backgrounds, cultural heritige, personalities and personal philosophies. As a result, to draw any far reaching generalization about what they like or do not like as a group is completely fallacious. So wrong is this methodology that to even declare that all men are sexually interested in women is incorrect.

Basically what I am saying is that for anyone to claim that "Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't." is on the same logical grounds as someone claiming "Some men will tell you they aren't physically attracted to women. They are."

You are free to claim that I misspelled something, or that I have a typo somewhere in the above explanation, or that I got too technical, but none of that will serve to invalidate the core of my contention that men are far too diverse of a group to make any such generalization about what they do or do not like.

Maybe you are inclined to explain men with simple generalizations that eliminate the fact that each man is an individual, but then you are already way off in your understanding because "men" aren't some cookie cut out of the same set of traits.

Amy Says:

"Humans have similarities in their physiology and psychology, which makes it possible for me to generalize reasonably. "

Not in this instance, and here is the reason why. You didn't merely claim that most men don't like to be asked out, you claimed that men who say they liked being asked out are liars.

There is a huge difference between asserting that men in general have a certain perspective and asserting that people who say they feel a certain way don't actually feel that way.

If you had merely said "most men don't enjoy being asked out" I would not have any issue with that statement, I do however have a serious issue with your actual statement:

"Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't."

Because the odds are that the ones who tell you they love being asked out probably are telling the truth, exactly what reason do they have to lie in that scenario?

They could just as easily say they don't like being asked out and prefer to do the asking, it's not like they would be criticized for taking such a stance.

Surely you can see the distinction I am making here. You aren't merely generalizing about men, you are invalidating the statements of "some men" based upon the opinion of the majority.

That is as nonsensicle as saying that "some women will tell you they love chocolate covered insects. They don't."... and then saying that the statement was alright because you were just generalizing.

Clearly however that isn't what occurs in that argument, instead what occurs is you use the generalization to invalidate the opinions of the minority. However such a statement is not logically warrented.

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So, how 'bout those Cowboys?

excessive use of ellipses that'll be ellipsis, then (unless maybe it's the plural of ellipsis ... oh god I think I'll just kill myself by leaving these parentheses open

and no full stop

There is a difference between being a strong woman and emasculating a man, and the perceptive female knows the difference. I have no interest in a man being my dependent, being a man's mommy and taking care of him, or proving how strong and independent I am in my dating relationships. I can do all of that in every other aspect of my life, so what's wrong with backing off and letting all that testosterone do what it wants? It's just for fun anyways, and I enjoy getting to relax and feeling all girly and letting my big strong man take care of me (primarily sexually and in certain social situations).

I'm going to have to agree with Amy, men aren't really in touch with their own feelings so they may thing they like being pursued, but then, something just doesn't feel right for them and they lose interest in the female that is pursuing them, and they start to find the Bambi female much more appealing. Men like to chase and if the ball stops moving and turns around and chases them, it weirds them out.

Egad, people, we've just lost Norman to the Punctuation Police! Where will all this madness end??

This is my first time reading this article, but I will attempt to address much of what I have read. Feel free to rip apart any grammar errors.

Still Interested: The guy may be angry at himself for not speaking up sooner and did not say goodbye because it would hurt too much to face what he had lost. He may honestly have not known you were interested. A male friend of mine is always asking me for advice on women because he never knows when a woman is flirting with him. Sometimes I want to hit him up side the head and scream, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? She was really into you." And he wonders why he is still alone. Admittedly he is a nice guy, but he is dense when it comes to women. SOME men are that way. However, from reading I believe the guy is probably afraid of a sexual harassment complaint. After all, he is not too shy to flirt at work. As far as Still Interested asking him out. I have yet to get up the courage to ask a guy out, even if I am positive he is interested and I am not timid by any stretch of the imagination. I am afraid he will think that means "all bets are off because only a woman who is "out there" will do something like that." I heard a guy say that about a woman a long time ago and it stuck with me.

Feminazis: For many years people have been mixed up about feminism. Feminism was about women having right to make certain choices and enjoy privileges they were denied. For instance, one lady I talked to who was big in the feminist movement was not even able to open up a bank account without her husband's signature even though she was working and earning her own money. Yet when her husband passed away she was not allowed access to either account . In another instance, a woman had to have a male relative purchase a house for her because the sellers refused to see to a woman and the bank refused to give her a loan without a male's signature. Femanazis became an issue because of the misunderstanding of what the feminist movement really meant.

Men do not want women to ask them out: Presently there is a guy who is showing me interest who is a bit submissive. He likes it when a woman takes the lead. Although I am a strong woman, I am not a very aggressive woman. This guy (lets call him J) is very sweet and generous and I like him very much. He is a well known doctor and has no problem being aggressive at work but that part of him is never seen outside of work. I in no way see him as a weak man. He likes for me to make all of the choices, when we go, where we go, and even the major decisions. He is a leader in his professional life but he is definitely a follower in his personal life. Some men do like for women to take the initiative.

Sexual Harassment in the work place: I have not had experience with sexual harassment in my civilian life but when I was in the military it came up a lot. It was like a contest as to who could file the most sexual harassment cases, men or women. If a woman file a case one week, a man would file one the next week. Some of the cases were pitiful. One guy filed a case because a woman called him sweetheart (she called everybody sweetheart, even the captain). Apparently his buddy was in trouble for inappropriate touching. Some men are not afraid to file a sexual harassment complaint.

A European male friend of mine once said that the men in the US are so far behind them it is sad. He said that the men in this country are too hung up on the macho thing. In other words, if you want change then be a vehicle for change. Stop being afraid you will be called a sissy or fag if you file a sexual harassment complaint. The very first feminist were called a lot of things but they went forward anyway. They suffered a lot more than a man would suffer today. File the case (only if it is legit), take the hard knocks and move forward. Don't be afraid to stand in the gap. If you want change, make change happen. (hint hint DF)

DF I have no idea who did a number on you. WOW. Good thing you are letting it out before it festers.

Well, thats my spill. Take it or leave it - your right, your choice.

I'll take it, thanks. Well said. There IS a great amount of variation in men's preferences and behavior patterns, no doubt about it. As for the ones who think they like being asked out but then lose interest quickly, they're just immature -- and who wants an immature guy anyway?

P.S. This doesn't mean I advocate pursuing, not at all. But in this case I don't think a casual invite for coffee, just to break the ice, could do any harm. If that scares him off, then LW might as well give up on him -- that dog don't hunt.

I think this lady should just move on. If he's interested, and I doubt he is, he's pissed off at her for 'cheating' on him with another guy and Still Interested has been stringing him along (yeah, I know they haven't gone out on date #1...) or Still Interested is imagining Male Co-worker's friendliness is interest in her. Either way, lady, move on. Concentrate on the job, you're there to work, not flirt.

And on another note to the bitter jerks who whine about who the wicked, wicked bitches that screw men over...puh-lease!

You guys are the same dips who actually think the barrista at the coffee bar, the waitress at Hooter's, and the burger flipper at Mc Donald's is into you because she smiles and says 'have a nice day'. FYI--she's not. She's required to do both by some corporate overseer. She's a woman trying to do a job and make a living and the last thing she wants/needs is some jerk staring down her shirt, causing an interruption while trying to make time....unlike Still Interested who seems to think her workplace is a social club. Most women are at work to do a job. Period.

Or it could be that he's gay and in the closet, which would explain a lot of things. At any rate, she'll never find out unless she makes a move -- either that or fuggedabaddit.

Speaking of being at work to do a job, period, I've noticed a few posts in the past from people saying they were at work while writing -- now that's just wrong!

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huh? what?....hey, things got more interesting! Holy cow, is it Sunday already?

Um, Marie, where EXACTLY in Europe are you talking about? And what should I be packing for this time of year?

I will start off by addressing two issues.

The first is that I think Loopychick did a great job of demonstrating why I used ellipses in the first place. There is a sizable subset of internet goers who simply do not have the attention span to read a fully developed thought. They simply pass out the moment anything resembling an academically rigorous argument is presented which goes against something they want to believe.

As a result I've taken the route of "knowing my audience" and since many people on the internet have an increadibly short attention span, I try at times to get to the punchline quickly... which means presenting abbreviated thoughts through the use of ellipses.

Second issue:

Chrissy Says:

"I'm going to have to agree with Amy, men aren't really in touch with their own feelings so they may thing they like being pursued, but then, something just doesn't feel right for them and they lose interest in the female that is pursuing them, and they start to find the Bambi female much more appealing. Men like to chase and if the ball stops moving and turns around and chases them, it weirds them out."

Listen Chrissy, you are going to have to give men a little more credit than that.

Certainly *some* men are out of touch with their own feelings and don't know what they really want... but the same can be said for *some* women.

Here's the deal so far as I see it, and I believe that many other men can corroborate my position.

If I am interested in a woman, I could care less whether I ask her out first or if she makes the first move... I don't care one way or the other because if I like her, I just want to be around her however that happens to occur.

All you are doing here is trying to justify your own personal preference to be asked out by saying "men don't *really* want me to ask them out... so I am doing them a favor!!!"

You don't need to justify your position, if you like being asked out that is great for you... but it should also enable you to comprehend why someone else might enjoy being asked out as well.

Men come in all shapes, sizes, personalities... some of those combinations invariably include the type of guy who really doesn't care if a woman takes the initiative on occasion.

Go back and read the story in this thread about the married couple where the woman asked the guy out on the first date... if that guy *really* only wanted to be with women who he could pursue 100% of the time, then explain to me why they are involves in a very long term and committed relationship?

Based on your theory he should have been long gone and after bambi long before proposing marriage.

Generalizing about men in this fashion is as bad as generalizing about women... just as women are a diverse group with many different wants and needs, so too are men complex emotional creatures, far more complex than you are giving us credit.

My friend took me to the dealership to get her Yaris fixed, I talked to the main guy there my usual car talk and got her an employee discount (simply because I'm chatty, friendly and I know things). Amy could make an accurate statement to say that most women do not know anything about cars and then I could come on here and write a big long paragraph about how it doesnt apply to me. Well that's nice but the rule still applies. Most women dont know anything about cars.

Most women like to be asked out. I like to be asked out and treated like a woman. I'm independent in many other areas, I work in a male-dominated field. But if you dont ask me out you dont get nothing period. I would have no problem asking men out except I dont like it and they dont like it because of our monkey brains. Yes there are women who have asked men out and gotten results but honestly why the hell would i want to be with a man I had to chase down? I'd be resentful of the fact.

Easy there, Jason. I've read every word. If you read my post from Friday you'll notice that we seem to be pretty much in agreement on the generalizing.

I agree completely with your initial post in which you presented your argument in a clear and comprehensive fashion...ellipses included. In fact it was so clear that I don't understand why you make the same points again (and again) particularly after "Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject as I have no desire to get into an argument with you." To me the repetition makes it sound like you're ranting...which was exactly what I found boring about DF.

Thanks Amy. I just feel I have to answer some of Jasons points.

"If I am interested in a woman, I could care less whether I ask her out first or if she makes the first move... I don't care one way or the other because if I like her, I just want to be around her however that happens to occur."

Most men who have trouble asking women out complain about why it is that men have to do the asking. They care very much who makes the first move. The LW was one of those men, anxious, embarassed, self-conscious. These are signs for a woman not to get involved with the man. A valuable man has no problem asking out valuable women.

"Go back and read the story in this thread about the married couple where the woman asked the guy out on the first date... if that guy *really* only wanted to be with women who he could pursue 100% of the time, then explain to me why they are involves in a very long term and committed relationship?"

This is an exception to the rule, and you are taking it as THE rule. I'm very happy for their marriage but the truth is they got lucky. I have no problem getting dates because I'm a young, fertile female and by evolutionary standards very valuable. Therefore I have no need to ask men out, men realize this and this makes me even more valuable.

I also work with men and realize their nature. A man who is too anxious to make the moves on a woman wont make a suitable partner 99% of the time. He will not be respected by his male peers. Women will not get involved with a man who is not respected by other men, they will shun these men with good reason. (Notice gay guys are popular with women because their popularity rests with other gay MEN).

Loopychick Says:

"I agree completely with your initial post in which you presented your argument in a clear and comprehensive fashion...ellipses included."

Thank you.

The problem I encounter when trying to converse with people on the internet is the following:

You can please some people all of the time, all of the people some of the time... but never all of the people all of the time.

What I basically felt like was happening was that I got criticized for using very abrupt thoughts that got the point across quickly.

Then when I went to address the criticism by offering a more thought out post complete with full sentences... then I got criticized for being too wordy.

It felt like the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

I personally would just love it if I could merely express my views without having to then be put on the spot to defend how I chose to express them.

If someone has a problem with my view point then I welcome all manner of debate... but when all they can attack is sentence structure, then I've got a problem with it.

What you view as a "rant" was merely my attempt to appease both sides (i.e. those who like short and sweet... and those who prefer more academic construction).

You'll probably notice that many people here (note not all) are very used to making arguments that involve drawing conclusions about the nature of the poster as opposed to the content they bring to the table.

Frankly the only thing that matters is the position.

If you happen to agree with some or all of what I've said then that is great... if not that is also okay. I just don't need to be told that the problem is that I had too many ellipses... too few ellipses... my words were too big... they weren't technical enough... etc...

Examining that kind of minutia is pointless in my opinion.

Sorry to get off track here.

Loopychick: I was in the Navy and on a ship so I was able to see
quite a bit of Europe, mostly Italy. As far as I could see, their weather was just like ours ... but then I guess that would depend on where you are. they had regular seasons. In the spring and fall it tended to rain a lot. One fall it rained so much it cause mudslides. I remember going to bed one night to the soft sound of rain and waking up to cars literally floating through the parking lot.

If you make it to La maddalena ( a little Island in Sardengia) please stop by Angelos and get a sandwich on focaccia. It will change your life. I have been back in the states for 10 years and have not been able to develop a like for sandwiches here. I use to survive on them before. And if you go to Naples, stay away from the port unless in a group (bad element there). Do not go shopping in the little side shops without a friend. Talk to them while you are in the dressing room. We were told people had actually came up missing while trying on clothes. However, do go to the little restaurant across the street from the Navy Base. Try the sandwich with the thin slice of ham and the zucchini or the ham and spinach. It sounds horrible but tastes great.

Visit the little islands. They are awesome. Ana Capri has a cave that is half underwater. The waters are blue and they illuminate the cave. You have to go in in a small row-boat and duck your head while going through the entrance but it is worth it.

The italian men (for the most part) are very flirtatious and they do not care if you (or they) are married. Italians also have no sense of personal space so don't get offended if they get really close.

Some things may have changed since I left. Oh yeah, coffee shops/bars are the popular hangouts. Almost everybody smokes (at least back then). Caribinaris are fun to hang out with. Don't expect a big breakfast. Look for the white sands beaches. Enjoy your trip!!!

Once again, sorry for getting off the subject.

PurplePen Says:

"Most men who have trouble asking women out complain about why it is that men have to do the asking. They care very much who makes the first move."

To be quite honest, the only ones here who seem obsesed about who makes the first move are the women.

I for one don't care who makes the first move so long as the first move gets made... if I am the first one to do the asking then great, but if I am interested in a woman I guarantee that if she asks me out i'm not going to suddenly think she is a waste of time.

Men don't generally change their opinion that rapidly based upon such frivilous things. Anyone who thinks they do are essentially saying that men in general are flaky... and in general we aren't.

Some men will complain why men have to do the asking for the same reason that women 50 years ago complained why women have to do the cleaning. All it boils down to is that eventually, some people just get tired of having to shoulder a responsibility that they think can be shared from time to time.

I'm not saying that men should stop asking women out, that would be crazy... but at the same time I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she really likes a guy. The worst thing that can happen is he will say no... which is the worst that can happen if a guy asks a woman out. Getting rejected is just a part of dating, is it easy?... nope... but it also isn't nearly as bad as one might think.

I've been rejected before and I've done the rejecting before... I've been accepted and done the accepting before... it's all part of dating and as I said before, I personally don't care who makes the first move.

Please take a look at the thread Purplepen... the group who seems focused on who makes the first move really isn't the men here... you are projecting this motivation onto the wrong gender in my opinion.

"This is an exception to the rule, and you are taking it as THE rule. I'm very happy for their marriage but the truth is they got lucky. I have no problem getting dates because I'm a young, fertile female and by evolutionary standards very valuable. Therefore I have no need to ask men out, men realize this and this makes me even more valuable. "

It really isn't an exception to the rule though... you are taking a small majority and expressing it as "the rule"... but even if 60% of men fall into the category of never ever wanting a woman to ask them out, then the other 40% can't suddenly be ignored.

Furthermore, I understand where you are coming from with relation to being a young, fertile female and as a result are evolutionary very valuable.

Here is the problem... how certain are you that the lady who wrote the initial letter is in the same position?... for all we know she is not very good looking, possibly past her prime... etc...

Let's say she is in that situation... would it then be okay for her to ask this guy out?

Are you essentially saying that only old or ugly women should ask men out and all pretty fertile women should wait to be asked?

Here is something you should consider though... there are lots of evolutionarily valuable men out there who don't need to be asked out either... so how do you propose getting one of them?... or you've decided that if they are so valuable that they don't need to ask you out, then they are out of your league?

Here is the truth... there are men and women out there who just don't need to ask anyone out and will still have members of the opposite gender fawning over them.

I still see absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, man or woman, deciding that someone is interesting enough to them to essentially say "screw it... if they aren't going to ask me out... I'm asking them."

If you are not able to make that decision then maybe you just haven't met anyone who really interests you enough to throw caution to the wind and give it a shot... that is fine, but if you ever do run into a guy who just seems amazing to you, but for whatever reason isn't asking you out... I wouldn't just write it off as a lost cause.

If they are really that amazing, they are probably worth the effort of saying "Hey, want to get a cup of coffee?"

Alvin Toffler wrote about Future Shock. American women today are suffering from a major case of future shock. They have no idea at all what large numbers of men really think of them today. As long as they get laid from time to time, all is well, and some day my prince will come. And, when he doesn't, men are all worthless.

And, if any man dares to tell them the truth, they engage in what is called shaming language. One can almost lip sync a woman when she discovers men like DF, who are legion today.

Who pissed in your coffee? You are so bitter and angry, because you can't get laid. Your penis (testicles) are so small. You must hate your mother. You are gay. You hate all women. Etc. Etc.

Shaming language worked for a long time. More and more men are learning to laugh at it. I imagine DF really doesn't care much what you say to him.

More interest is developing in foreign women. Last summer, I visited a small rural Midwest city, to visit a Mexican woman I know who is married to an Anglo. We went out to the local Wal-mart around 9 pm, and virtually every man in that store was with a dark-haired women, clearly an import. I was shocked! I had no idea that many men in that community had married FW's.

Some might say I am guessing. No, a person can tell a foreign woman from non-English speaking nations, fifty feet away, from an American woman by the look on their faces. The AW looks bitter, sour, and angry. I tell men this, and when they return to the States, they admit it is true.

I tell men that the most ignorant African slave knew if he/she could, to go to Canada. I ask them so what is their problem, why are they staying in a nation where they have as few rights as slaves did, where they are hated as much as slaves were, where any accusation can result in years in prison with no real evidence. (The Duke hoax and the female response demonstrated what life is like for men who don't have millions of dollars to fight in court.)

To disillusion your usual shaming language, I have been married to a FW for decades, and am a good parent and grandpa. Feel free to waste ammunition, though.

Also, as Amy can tell you from IP reports, I am not in the US. And when I do need to return for family needs, feel much like a Viet Nam War soldier who is flown out to the jungle, and told the chopper will not get back for a week.

It's not just the women in the US. I told my youngest son recently it was pretty bad when a person is relieved to cross the border into Mexico, because the cops there are much less dangerous.

Wow. I'm not touching that last post.

No, I'm here to talk to Jason. Jason, your posts are very well thought out and clearly written, ellipses and all. Don't be intimidated into rephrasing them just to satisfy some pedant who is more interested in the form than the content.

The contributors to this site are highly intelligent and well-educated, but occasionally one of them will go overboard. I've probably done it myself -- just pay no mind.

These days we are constantly being bombarded by grievous errors in spelling, punctuation and grammar -- ellipses are the least of our problems.

I just came home from the bar so bear with me here Jason, but I'd still like to answer your points.

"To be quite honest, the only ones here who seem obsesed about who makes the first move are the women."

And that's exactly who heterosexual men are trying to date. I dont like having to ask a man out, and neither does any woman I know. It would make me resent a man if I had to be the "man" in the equation.

"I for one don't care who makes the first move so long as the first move gets made..."

Bravo Jason! I can fix your Camry if it ever gets broken but I doubt any other woman can. You and I arent the natural rules for our respective sexes.

"Men don't generally change their opinion that rapidly based upon such frivilous things"

No they follow set rules. Men are easy, they like sex. They like a relationship with a woman who isnt "easy". I had sex with my past boyfriend one hour after I met him, and we lasted several months, he's still a sweetheart in my eyes. Now giving advice to all the women out there who want boyfriends that it's ok if they sleep with a guy one hour after they meet him wont be very productive for their romantic lives will it? It worked for me but like I said I can fix your Camry.

"all we know she is not very good looking, possibly past her prime... etc...Let's say she is in that situation... would it then be okay for her to ask this guy out?"

The ugly troll asks the man out and doesnt appear to be desperate. Great scenario.

"there are lots of evolutionarily valuable men out there who don't need to be asked out either... so how do you propose getting one of them?... or you've decided that if they are so valuable that they don't need to ask you out, then they are out of your league?"

I'm not looking for George Clooney, he doesnt need pussy, pussy comes to him. Do you think George Clooney would have a problem asking a woman out like the LW? That aura, energy, $$$, George Clooney has makes the pussy come to him BUT I doubt he'd go out with any beautiful girl that comes up to him and asks him for a date. In fact, I bet he does all the asking. What's your point? There are men out there who get pussy thrown at them? So what? It's not 99.9% of men. It's women who get dick thrown at them all the time.

"but if you ever do run into a guy who just seems amazing to you, but for whatever reason isn't asking you out... I wouldn't just write it off as a lost cause"

I will, why waste my time chasing him down by asking him for coffee? He should be chasing me down because I'm a woman, get it? I can fix your Camry but that dont matter because all those years of evolution wont make other women want to fix your Camry.

And Jason, men dont like to be asked out because it intimidates them and makes the woman appear desperate. A girl who does not NEED to ask any man out is the kind of girl they want. Just because of how you feel does not negate the rule.

All so well put, Purple Pen, yet again.

Per your George Clooney remark above, before I met Gregg, I dated a guy who is a movie star for a little while. While he was attracted to me, I think he was also into to the fact that when we met, I really had no interest in him at all. (I'm not big on movie actors, and typically joke that they are "egos in search of a landing pad.") My not chasing him (and, in fact, not initially being that interested in even talking to him) set me apart from all the women who chased him.

As Purple points out, guys don't value what throws itself at their feet. Wimpy guys will just pretend they will so they don't have to ask women out, and guys who don't understand or don't care to understand the biological and psychological differences between men and women will advise women to ask men out because it's "fair."

PS And I love that you can fix my Camry if it's broken (not that I have a Camry), but as a woman who can barely open her hood, I admire you for that.

PurplePen,

"And that's exactly who heterosexual men are trying to date. I dont like having to ask a man out, and neither does any woman I know. It would make me resent a man if I had to be the "man" in the equation."

Then quit making it about what the man wants... the man doesn't care who does the asking... you and other women do.

I don't mind if that is your preference, but I'd appreciate it if you would stop projecting your perspective onto others... most men really won't care if a pretty woman asks them out on a date.

"Bravo Jason! I can fix your Camry if it ever gets broken but I doubt any other woman can. You and I arent the natural rules for our respective sexes. "

To be honest I think I am fairly natural in this respect.

Please give me one evolutionarily valid reason why any heterosexual male would find it objectionable to be shown interest by a woman?

If he is attracted to her there is absolutely no biological reason for him to see it as a negative... in fact it shouldn't matter at all from the perspective of evolution.

The only one it should matter to is the woman as from an evolutionary standpoint it is in her best interest to find a male who is willing to "prove" himself to her... it isn't actually in the males best interest to prove anything if he doesn't have to.

"No they follow set rules. Men are easy, they like sex."

Bingo... so exactly why would they care about being asked out first?... the sex is the same no matter who does the asking.

"Do you think George Clooney would have a problem asking a woman out like the LW?"

I'm saying that George Clooney might be happy to flirt with this lady... but he certainly isn't going to make the first move if he's got several other options waiting in the wings.

I don't know the exact scenario that the LW is in... I don't know what this guy is like.

All I know is she apparently likes him and he isn't giving her the attention she wants... why does that make him the loser for not asking?... isn't it also possible that he's got other options and hence doesn't feel compelled to do the asking?

If that is the case and she really likes him, maybe she's got to go to the mountain instead of expecting it to come to her.

"I will, why waste my time chasing him down by asking him for coffee? He should be chasing me down because I'm a woman, get it?"

Why waste your time???... well maybe because you really like the guy and it wouldn't actually be a waste of time if you got his attention.

From his perspective there is no more benefit from him chasing you down than from you chasing him down.

You are looking at this from an entirely female perspective and expecting men to "tow the line" and "get with the program"... but you've forgotten that men run on a different program than you do.

You don't get to project the evolutionary model of women onto men as if that is what men actually want.

The vast majority of men just won't care.

And lastly:

"And Jason, men dont like to be asked out because it intimidates them and makes the woman appear desperate."

Wrong... remember what you said above:

"Men are easy, they like sex."

If a man is attracted to a woman and she asks him out, there is absolutely no reason for him to reject her because the possibility of sex hasn't diminished because she did the asking.

Please think about it, you're not considering this from the male perspective.

If you think I am wrong I encourage you to ask men if they were asked out by a pretty woman if they would feel "intimidated" by it... or if they would think it was very flattering.

I can just imagine it now... way back in our evolutionary past... all the women who approached the men for sex were instantly rejected because the men only wanted the women they had to chase down... sorry, I'm not buying it.

The more likely scenario is that the men who didn't ask just didn't mate and as a result it became institutionalized... it has nothing to do what what men want, so please stop trying to justify your own desires based upon your belief that you are doing what men like... odds are they don't care.

Remember what you said about men not liking "easy" women... how long did that relationship last with the guy you slept with right away again?... believe me, many men don't care about that thing as much as women care and will make judgements of you as a "slut"... if the guy really cared all that much, he wouldn't have slept with you after an hour.

I know it is difficult sometimes to view things from the other genders perspective, but please don't just toss out what I am saying as if it is the silent minority... most men are going to tell you what you want to hear so you are going to get faulty information "in the field".

If you want to find out for yourself I suggest you pose as a man on some internet forum and ask if other men would really care all that much if a pretty woman asked them out on a date... my bet is you will be surprised by their response.

Amy Says:

"As Purple points out, guys don't value what throws itself at their feet."

I'm not suggesting that anyone throw themself at anyones feet here.

Most people, men and women alike, don't like to date sycophants.

That being said, guys do value people who are up front with them... they do value honestly and integrity, and they do value people who don't play games.

Do you honestly think it would be so aweful and detrimental if some woman got up the nerve to nudge a guy flirtateoustly and say something like "so when are you going to get up the nerve to ask me out?"

That kind of a statement would be playful and interesting if done in the appropriate fashion... it lets the guy know she is interested while at the same time giving him the opportunity to step up and take the bait.

Sure it puts the guy on the spot a little... but if the guy really likes the woman he'll jump all over it.

It's perfectly fine if women generally like to play the gazelle and expect the men to take on the role of the pouncing lion... but at the same time, it isn't so terrible if she acts wounded if it doesn't seem like the lion is chasing hard enough.

From my perspective it depends how much she likes the guy... I think that playing hard to get has ruined more potentially good relationships than it has helped... take that for what it is worth.

Also, both because I'm on deadline now and because this is vastly tiresome, I'll quote Wayne State's Richard F. Taflinger:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~taflinge/biosex1.html

These two seemingly contradictory attitudes toward reproduction, promiscuity in the male and selectivity in the female, must be reconciled. If they aren't, the species will die out due to lack of offspring. Species, therefore, devise reproductive strategies that bring males and females together.

Strategies are many and varied. They can include singing, displays of physical characteristics, dancing, pheromone release, flashing lights, or combat. In most species, it is the male that does something to attract the female's attention. There is a reason for that.

The first aspect of virtually any strategy is that the female makes the choice when it comes to mating. She has such a high biological stake in the outcome of mating that she must select the best possible male. If he does the choosing, a species could waste its reproductive strength, which resides in the female and the time and energy she puts in, on nonviable young. Since it is sound reproductive strategy for her to be the arbiter, he can only apply for permission to mate and wait for her decision.

How the male applies for permission to mate is a major part of any strategy. The application is to attract her attention and convince her that he's the male she should choose because he fulfills her criteria, whatever they might be. For example, male lightning bugs flash into the night, hoping a female will respond. The peacock opens one of the most beautiful displays in nature, a monster fan of iridescent tail feathers. A male bower bird constructs an elaborate well-decorated mating bower of grass, then dances while she looks on. She also checks out the bowers of other males. She mates with the one she thinks best, while the losing males try to attract another female.

Among mammals, the same strategy applies. He applies, she decides. His application is often by challenging other males to mating rights: elk bellow; rams butt heads; moose wrestle using their huge palmate antlers; elephant seals fight, sometimes to the death.

He applies, she decides. Not, he's a little wimpy so she'll have to ask him out and then he'll value her just the same as if he had to make some sort of effort instead of sit there like a big dead carp and wait for her to pick him up.

So this has been quite an active thread! However, as Amy says, we seem to have gotten wrapped around the flagpole. Allow me to follow up on a few things, and let's see if we can make any more progress with this.

First, the end of the story on my experience with the sexual-harassment machine. The co-worker who filed the complaint against me got a promotion a few months later, so I'm sure she was not punished or sanctioned in any way. About a year after the incident, she married a co-worker(!) and they moved away. I don't know what happened to her after that. Nor do I care now. The incident was one of several things that made me realize that the company we were working for was not run well at all. I was young when I started there so I didn't see it then. The incident provoked me to start reading up more on organizational theory and corporate governance, and I began to realize. The work was exciting, and there were a lot of people there who were putting up with a lot of corporate BS so they could stay with the work. But eventually I realized that my own career path had to take precedence over that. It turned out all good: I went to another company, a small business where I got the opportunity to do a bunch of once-in-a-lifetime things that look very good on my resume now. So don't cry for me.

Marie, a couple of points: There were two big problems with the sexual harassment policy at that company. One was the fact that it was explicitly set up to protect women. Men could not file complaints; it wasn't because of "wimpiness" or fear of name-calling, it was because the procedures didn't allow it, period. I was in fact aware of one guy who had tried, and they told him to go pound sand. The second problem was the policy allowing and encouraging third-party complaints. It's true that the vast majority of women, like the vast majority of men, are basically moral people who would not abuse the system in that way. However, when there is a third-party complaint policy, it only takes one wrong-thinking women to screw things up for most or all of the men.

Now, the other thing to note is that this all took place back in the '90s, when there was kind of a national panic about sexual harassment. It was often reported as being widespread, and there was a rush to judgement that resulted in a lot of bad policy. Since then, the situation has improved, sorta kinda. What seems to be the case now in most corporations is that they still have the stringent, panicky policies, but they now apply to both men and women. So that's an improvement in a way, in the sense that it's now equitable. But it's also a bit like the doctor who relieves pain by killing the patient. And third-party complaints are still honored, so the system is still practically begging people to abuse it.

As far as women asking men out: Hmm. Obviously, there are cases where it works. As Amy points out, though, these are probably exceptions to the rule. And if a given women finds it unappealing to have to ask a man out, well, that's the way she feels about it. As long as she's prepared to accept that there are some men she won't be dating because they won't ask her out, then that's the way it is. We all make choices about what we are and aren't attracted to, and every choice we make limits our pool of potential mates. Let me point out something that might help make Amy's case: If a man isn't asking a woman out, it's quite possible that that's because he isn't really interested! He may enjoy the attention of flirting, but have no desire to take in any further. Women have the prerogative of saying no, but men have the prerogative of not asking in the first place. I can think of two times that I've been asked out by a woman. One time, it turned into a relationship that was reasonably good for as long as it lasted. However, the other time, I was asked out by a woman that I, frankly, wasn't interested in. I should have said no, but I didn't want to hurt her feelings. That was a mistake; it ended badly, and I learned a lesson.

Having said all that, I do think that sometimes a woman can do herself a favor by creating a circumstance in which the man she's interested in can feel more comfortable asking. For example: The LW could offer to her colleagues to go get pastries or doughnuts for the office. Then, recruit her would-be beau to go to the coffee shop with her to help carry everything back. Once they are together off the premises, he might feel more comfortable asking. However, in the LW's case, if I were being asked for advice, I'd advise her to move on.

That was very interesting, Cousin Dave -- and I'm truly glad you survived that experience as well as you did.

But gang, I have a great idea! Maybe if we all could shut up for a few minutes Amy might feed us a new topic -- this one's been done to death.

Gotta wait for Wednesday Pussnboots...sad, but true. But her BLOG is good for discussion too!

Thanks, Moreta -- I'll try it.

Irlandes said:

"Women might say I am guessing. No, a person can tell a foreign woman from non-English speaking nations, fifty feet away, from an American woman by the look on their faces. The AW looks bitter, sour, and angry. I tell men this, and when they return to the States, they admit it is true"

You are generalizing and generalization, like a stereotypes, are usually wrong.

I am a 38 year old AMERICAN woman who has never had a problem getting a date in any country. I get asked out by men from different cultural backgrounds. And, get this, I do not believe in premarital sex and make that very clear from the beginning. Therefore, it is not for the sex. Yeah, I know you did not say that but thought it would be wise to make it clear before someone Einstein decided he had the answer. Bitter, sour and angry has never been words men use to refer to me. Since I don't see myself as the only American woman out there like me, your generalizations are wrong. You do not want to be grouped into one pot of "all men are" but you seem okay to do that when it comes to American women.

Now, I could generalize and say that American men are intimidated by strong, educated and independent women (qualities found in many American women) who refuse to sit back and accept whatever a man chooses to throw her way because she is not dependent on him, but I will not. I am sure there are a lot of American men out there who look for those qualities in a woman.

Irlandes said:
"And, if any man dares to tell them the truth, they engage in what is called shaming language. One can almost lip sync a woman when she discovers men like DF, who are legion today."

That is laughable. Glad you have a sense of humor. A person can almost feel the bitterness coming through the screen. I had to test your theory and let a group of both sexes read what DF wrote. It was unanimous. The spoken thoughts went something like this: "he has been hurt bad," " some woman really did a number on him," "ouch, who messed with his head." I could go on but it was pretty much more of the same.

Think on this ... maybe women have come into contact with men like DF so much that they pretty much have it down. After all, men like DF date(d) women, not men, so women are more likely to see (and hear about) it more often. Just thought I would give you something to think about.

PurplePen, I can't even change a tire, but I can air it up and I can change the oil. Also I can fix and industrial dry cleaning/laundry machine or a vending machine if they break.

Cousin Dave, That company needed to be sued. That is also a way to make change. Even back then it was against the law to discriminate. Sorry, the lawyer is coming out in me. For reference, I was in the military in the 90s.

Yeah yeah, I know there are grammar mistakes in my last post. I can live with it.

Well said.

If a woman were to ask a man out, and he said no, could she sue for hurt feelings, and the like?

Only if she has little to no self esteem, Norman. And even then, if she did, I'd think way less of her than if she didn't!

The fellows who seem so attached to this argument appear, to me, to lack a sense of humor on this issue and take the whole thing far too seriously.

This is not a physics essay, its a published piece of advice that is meant to give real, researched information that applies to the majority (as each individual is clearly unique -- does that disclaimer really need to be stated in each and every thought for people to get it?) while also being entertaining for the rest of us.

Sticking specifically to the issue of the LW: LW believes she has been flirting obviously and giving clear signals, she believes guy is picking up on signals and responding in kind, but not taking the final step of asking her out. So either he isn't really interested in which case her asking him out would be a waste of time anyway, or he is really interested, but has some personal dilemma stopping him from asking (fear of lawsuits, shyness, anger, whatever). If he can't sort out this dilemma in a satisfactory way, then he probably isn't a good candidate for a mate. Or coloquially: He needs to find his balls.

And I don't know Norman. Can't Americans sue each other for anything? Or is that just a Canadian myth?

moreta,

Some years back, a fellow by the name of Mayo -- if I remember my facts correctly, he was a convicted felon -- attempted to sue Satan for "causing his downfall." The judge dismissed the suit, in part because the plaintiff had not demonstrated that American courts had jurisdiction over Satan. So while Americans can (and will) try to sue each other over everything, rest assured, there are limits in the legal system: we can't, at the very least, sue the devil. :)

Here in Canada our Prime Minister (who might well BE the devil) is suing the opposition party. Sadly, not an April Fool joke : (

Marie: grazi for the travel tips! Ciao!

moreta: No, it's pretty much true. Sigh. My "favorite" was a case about 15 years ago where a woman in (IIRC) California sued a hospital, saying that the hospital's CAT scanner had destroyed her psychic powers. She won an award of several million dollars. I think it was overturned on appeal, but there's no telling how much money the hospital had to spend in its defense.

marie, FYI: That company went out of business several years ago. Not that I care one way or the other any more.

Loopychick: Prego

Thats funny, Americans have found someone they couldnt sue. Better off suing god tho, the church has more money.
On the dating subject, this bloke does sound a bit sus, with the jealousy thing hearing she has been on a date. Big red wierdo flag that. But he may just be a bit shy and waiting for a solid signal. She may even be a nutter too, if she's so perplexed by the situation that she cant simply ask what he thinks of her and is asking Amy instead. At the end of the day wouldnt it be the person who is attracted in the first place that does the asking, if they are both attracted and cant do anything about it they are both wimps.
Another way of looking at women wanting to be asked out instead of the other way round is that they dont want to give up their power of sitting on the throne making the final decisions, and throwing the rejects over their shoulders when not enough of their list is ticked.
Personally it only takes a sideways glance from a woman and i am over to say hello, but by the same token Ive had more great times with women who know what they want and ask for it straight out. Its fun to seduce and its fun to be seduced. Burn the rule books and have fun

Marie,

I want to applaud the following statement you made:

"You are generalizing and generalization, like a stereotypes, are usually wrong."

This is pretty much what I've been saying all along but apparently many posters here are quite comfortable generalizing about men, and even the mere suggestion that they shouldn't do that get's them up in arms and they act down right rude and obnoxious.

Here is the point... women don't like it when men generalize about them... and for good reason because women cannot all be shoved into a box with the same description, each woman is an individual... each woman brings a different personality and different qualities to the table, and as a result each woman should be judged by her own personal merits and flaws.

All I am saying is that if that is the treatment women expect for themselves, then they must be willing to offer that same treatment to men.

This means that making blanket statements such as "men don't like to be asked out by women... and those that say they do like it are lying to themselves" is completely and utterly unacceptable, there is no defense for that kind of a generalization... not to mention that it is also blatantly wrong... men don't care who asks, women do.

Believe me, I understand that some women here really and honestly believe that men don't want to be asked out because they need the "thrill of the chase"... but think of it this way, that is the equivalent of saying that dolphins don't like fish unless they have to jump through a hoop for them first. If a guy is attracted to you he won't care one way or the other how you end up going on that first date so long as it happens (the reverse is true too... if he isn't attracted to you then asking him out probably won't change that)... the same way dolphins will be just as happy getting a fish tossed to them just because they are cute without them having to prove something to get it.

People are of course free to call this content boring, or dull, or call me names or whatever, I've come to expect it here whenever I contradict conventional female "wisdom" about how men think and act... but you are just shooting the messenger. Those tactics don't change the truth.

T.G.I.T.

One last round, because I'm afraid someone might take Jason's arguments as the logical. They have the veneer of logic because Jason speaks from the

There is a little fact in all of our lives called human nature. Perhaps one might say that in this day and age it should not exist. I will spell out a little secret for you Jason. People say one thing and act in the opposite manner. This phenomena is attributed to both sexes, and in all manner of circumstance. Men will say "I do not mind being asked out", that goes along with "I know I know you just one day but honey I will still respect you if you have sex with me." Men will say they like to be asked out but aside from you Jason, most men (and ghast! I'm generalizing) DONT like it. Yes Jason I do generalize from time to time, see I dont go to women for advice on what car I should get because I generalize. I dont go to heterosexual men about what makeup I should buy because I generalize. Your advice amounts to people have good hearts! we should just be straight up and honest! Umm...Jason....fat girls have good hearts but I dont see straight men lining up for them. Pretty girls could go up to the weenie and ask him out, but they usually have man who is a man who thinks like a man after them so why even bother? Oh right because we all have good intentions. You see men want to be men (the askers, the protectors, the providers) and women want to be women (the flirty, the choosy, the emotional) because its human nature. This is my final point, Jason's message is all about how things should be not how they are. Ladies that wont make you happy, slap on some makeup and flirt your asses off, if he doesnt respond move on to the next man. Men ask women out, otherwise expect bad pickings, the cast aways of womankind. Men respect men who do the asking. A man who is respected by other men is the kind of man women want.

Jason speaks from the heart, the heart!

Amy,

Did you even hesitate to type that last comment?... did it even occur to you how much of a hypocrite you are being?

Just moments ago you vehemently came out against a generalization some guy made about women... and then have the unmitigated gall to say that your generalization about men is perfectly valid.

It is not even in the same league as making the generalization that most humans have two legs... specificically because it is actually invalid.

Take a look at the posts made by men here... each and every one suggests that when they have been asked out by women they didn't take it negatively... in fact they enjoyed it when it was from a woman they were attraced to.

You are just blatantly wrong, and the only way you and other women here continue to believe this garbage is to just say that all the men who say they think this way don't know themselves... or a liars.

Well that is convenient isn't it?

Based upon that same form of argumentation you have no right to argue against the generalization made against women simply because I can just claim that you don't know yourself very well.

Furthermore, I never once suggested that I have any issues asking women out... In fact the core of my statement has been that men do not have negative feelings about women we are attracted to initiating a date with us. It has nothing to do with my propensity to ask or not ask anyone anything.

As a final note I will point out the following. Many men would claim that in general women are irrational, illogical, and cannot form a cogent argument if their life depended on it. Does this mean that anything you write should be instantly invalidated merely because you are a woman and come from the presumed "illogical" gender?

If so then you shouldn't bother trying to debate me here because that generalization precludes you from defeating my position.

PurplePen,

Yes, human nature does exist and people will often times say one thing and do another.

We are talking about what people actually do though.

I am not suggesting that "people have good hearts".

My entire argument stems from biological self interest.

It is in no mans best interest to reject or negatively view an attractive woman who asks them out on a date... none whatsoever.

By contrast it is very much in their self interest to accept her advances.

If she is unnattractive then he will be uninterested either way.

"You see men want to be men (the askers, the protectors, the providers) and women want to be women (the flirty, the choosy, the emotional) because its human nature. "

You've got it all wrong.

Men ask women out most of the time simply because women want to be the ones who are asked out... and men want women.

Men don't do it because of some deeply seeded biological need to do the asking... we do it because we want women and to get them we often need to play by the rules they have set up.

Going back to my dolphin analogy. Do dolphins jump through hoops because they enjoy it?... do they do it because they have a deep seeded biological need to leap from the water through round things?

Or do they do it because the trainers want them to jump through hoops and reward them with fish after they do as expected?

Dolphins want fish... they don't care about hoop jumping.

Men want attractive women... they don't care how they get them, whether they ask or are asked makes no difference from their perspective.

You are projecting your own desire to want to be asked as a mans desire to want to ask... It's the same as suggesting that because the trainers at sea world want the dolphins to entertain the crowd, that the dolphin wants leap from the water in a dramatic fashion on cue.

Someone once said that their is always a 80/20 split when it comes to generalizations. Eighty percent of the time the generalization is dead on or hits 80% of the group to which it refers. Twenty percent of the time it is dead wrong or misses 20% of the group to which it refers, and vice versa. This is why it is bad to generalize.

Last night I talked with a MALE who made blanket statements about men that would make the men in this forum cringe. I referred him to the forum. He told me that those men were just lying to themselves and everyone else. What I said to this man was that in my studies and travel, I have found that if a person feels they believe or practice something that appears to be negative, it is easier to tell oneself that it is not because everybody else believes or practices as I do. It is a way of making yourself feel better about the things you believe or practice.

I think we are all right on the point of women asking men out. I have talked to men who fall on both ends of the spectrum.

I would love to have the confidence to ask a man out because I feel I could be missing out on a really nice guy. Unfortunately, that guys statement from long ago still haunts me- "women who ask men out are out there (easy) and sex is expected at the end of the night or the woman is a tease." Maybe if I had to ask men out because they were not asking me out, I would gain the confidence.

The guy I am recently see made the initial move then left everything up to me. I would rather things were more balanced. I do not see this relationship going anywhere because of the balance of powers in the relationship.

Hang on a sec, although i can see the point in using nature and animals in an analogy on this subject. Arent we supposedly the higher beings that have risen above such things?
I allways giggle at the amount of women who identify with dolphins, and the look of horror on their faces to learn that the mating ritual of dolphins amounts to pack rape, two or more males will chase down a female in season till she is exhausted and they then take turns doing her while one of the others holds her from the other side to prevent her trying to escape. My wife witnessed this one day from a bridge and commented on how big their 'willys' were and that there was three males and one female. When I told her why, the look was absolutely golden. Apparently only female dolphins are cute now.........lol

Well I guess I lied, my last comment wasnt my last comment on this thread.

"Take a look at the posts made by men here... each and every one suggests that when they have been asked out by women they didn't take it negatively... in fact they enjoyed it when it was from a woman they were attraced to."

Posts on an website dont constitute research. This is another instance where I will ignore what men say in favor of what they actually mean. This could have been well been a column about sleeping with a man on the first date and not getting any relationship out of it. If Amy suggested that sleeping with a man does not work if you want a boyfriend I am sure alot of men would come on here and write that they met their wives in exactly those circumstances and they really dont mind. Hell I might chip in and say I met my last boyfriend in those circumstances. So what? In the actual dating world it rarely if ever works out that way. Should I base my life on internet comments?

"Dolphins want fish... they don't care about hoop jumping"

Your argument amounts to men dont want to work to get women. Well hell Jason I dont want to work to get men either but guess what I still have to eat right and wax my legs.

"You are projecting your own desire to want to be asked as a mans desire to want to ask... "

I'm not, there are many things that are intertwined. Women in relationships like to look pretty, shop and buy makeup and get input from the their female friends. It makes them feel good and happy and I could make the argument that it makes them happy in their own right. But the biological purpose behind that drive comes from attracting a suitable male paterner (despite already having one). Mens version is the chase, and attaining the female. Yes I secretly I do like to wax my legs because it means I'll look better and secretly men like to ask out a woman and get results because it means they'll look better.

Amy,

You seem to be missing a very important point here and I don't understand why.

You say the following:

"Men, in general, are chemically better equipped to ask women out. Just as men tend to have more muscle mass than women. There might be a female body builder who has more muscle mass than some guy. But in general, this is true. Testable, provable."

I haven't actually argued against any of this... not a single point you make here actually counters what I am saying.

I am not saying whether men or women are better equipped to do the asking.

What I am saying is that there is absolutely no biological reason why a man would find it completely objectionable for a woman he is attracted to, to ask him out.

It doesn't matter how well equipped he is to do the job himself... that doesn't mean he would object to having it taken care of without having to put forth the effort.

What you are trying to assert is the same as saying that since men are physically stronger than women, that men have an inherent biological desire to do jobs that involve heavy lifting.

But we don't have that desire... we may do it, but it isn't because we like picking up heavy things... we do it because you get rewarded for doing it, you get money for performing the job.

In the same vein, men may be well equipped to ask women out on a date... but they don't do it because they have some deep seeded enjoyment of the act of asking... men ask because we get rewarded when we ask by getting the attention of a woman we are interested in.

Based on your form of reasoning you would suggest that men work because they like to and not because they get paid for it.

Sure some people work for the sheer enjoyment of their job... but the vast majority of people would quit what they were doing and do something else if they suddenly became independently wealthy.

"To say all American women are evil bitches is idiotic, because it's not true, and will not bear out if I simply line up the women on my own block, despite this poor pathetic angry guy's opinion that all American women are evil bitches, or however he said it."

By that same token it is idiotic to declare that men secretly hate being asked out by attractive women, it will not bear out if you put it to practice. The vast majority of men will be all over such an offer and they won't care how the date came to be, they will be quite happy that they are going on a date with someone they are attracted to.

To suggest otherwise is quite simply insane.

For the record, I don't agree that most American women are evil bitches... but I will say that your constant implication that people who disagree with you or say things you do not like must be wimps, chronic masturbators, poor, pathetic, or angry isn't helping your case. Only a bitch would resort to name calling when they don't like what someone else has to say.

You want to prove that American women are sweet and caring... then start to display those characteristics.

PurplePen,

"Posts on an website don't constitute research. This is another instance where I will ignore what men say in favor of what they actually mean."

What you are doing here is the equivalent of forming your conclusion before collecting evidence... not only doesn't that constitute research... it is also a completely invalid form of reasoning.

Even before a man has said anything you've predetermined what you think he means... you've created your own reality here that no amount of evidence will ever cure you from.

It is similar in character to racism... no matter how many counter examples are brought up, no matter how many explanations for why that world view is incorrect... the racist simply will deny the existence of that counter evidence and continue along their dogmatic path.

Believe whatever you want... but on this point you are dead wrong.

"This could have been well been a column about sleeping with a man on the first date and not getting any relationship out of it. If Amy suggested that sleeping with a man does not work if you want a boyfriend I am sure alot of men would come on here and write that they met their wives in exactly those circumstances and they really dont mind. Hell I might chip in and say I met my last boyfriend in those circumstances. So what? In the actual dating world it rarely if ever works out that way. Should I base my life on internet comments? "

All I have to say to this is the following, there was a time when the prevailing wisdom was that men would never marry a woman who wasn't a virgin. That myth was perpetrated by those with the same sort of methods you are using here. They were completely wrong of course... but no amount of explanation would convince them otherwise.

Don't base your life on internet comments... but don't base it on foolishness either.

How about I change my tactic with you here for a moment... what evidence would it take for you to believe me that in general men don't really see it as a negative for a woman they are attracted to, to ask them out?

Keep in mind that when it comes to research, the researcher MUST have conditions under which they can prove their hypothesis false. If you don't have that, then it instantly makes your belief dogmatic and more akin to a religion that you buy into on faith than anything rooted in fact.

"Your argument amounts to men dont want to work to get women. Well hell Jason I dont want to work to get men either but guess what I still have to eat right and wax my legs."

That is exactly what I am saying... men don't *want* to work to get women... they would be perfectly happy having women flock to them.

You guys are the ones saying that men have some inherent desire to work to get a woman's attention... in general we don't.

We just want women and are willing to do what it takes to make it happen... that doesn't mean we enjoy jumping through those hoops.

That is precisely what you and other women here are declaring, that men enjoy jumping through hoops... and the fact that I am suggesting otherwise seems to come as a complete and utter shock.

Your argument amounts to the following "since men often ask women out on dates... they must WANT to do it... and therefore do not want women to ask them"... you're entire argument relies upon the subjective desires of men... but we couldn't care less about asking, we just want the final result however that comes to pass.

It's really that simple.

Jason, what the fuck is wrong with you??? You're beating this thing to death, knock it off!

Some men can't handle it that some women aren't into them. Some women can't handle it that some men aren't into them. Grow a friggin' backbone where your wishbone is and get a goddamn life already!
My brother says that the men who complain the loudest about women "not liking" them are the ones who have offensive personalities and/or are fat, bald and/or ugly and get pissed off when the "super model" type women they ask out won't go out with them! They want the supermodels but do NOTHING to clean up their own appearances and cultivate the kind of personality that women will respond to. This is a MAN telling me this, mind you. He also says that good looking people of BOTH sexes who exude that "desperation vibe" are exceedingly unattractive, no matter how good-looking they are.

Your argument amounts to the following "since men often ask women out on dates... they must WANT to do it... and therefore do not want women to ask them"... you're entire argument relies upon the subjective desires of men... but we couldn't care less about asking, we just want the final result however that comes to pass.

It's really that simple.

That's one of the biggest, stinkiest piles of shit you've written thus far. And if you really believe this, I pity you. You haven't got a friggin' clue.

Jeff reminds me of the Comicbook Store guy from the Simpsons.

I have a married male friend whose wife is an executive earning 6 figures. He works 2 days a week, part time. He's not an attractive guy, and is very sloppy about his appearance. He is convinced that all the attractive women he meets want him, and that they are also after his money.

I find this sadly delusional on so many levels.

Chrissy, did you mean Jason? I can understand the slip -- same shit, different thread.

Nope, definitely Jeff. Jason doesn't use enough multi-syllabic words to evoke the comic guy. If I thought about it, Jason on track to becoming one of those guys who order a mail order Russian bride, and then are surprised when she leaves him as soon as she gets her green card. He's not quite there yet.

I do agree with one statement he made:
'...if some woman got up the nerve to nudge a guy flirtateoustly and say something like "so when are you going to get up the nerve to ask me out?"'
I would consider that flirting by the woman, and it gives the guy who isn't good at reading signals from women a definite green light to pursue, and make his move without any risk of rejection.

Flynne,

The only problem I have is that I try to open an intellectual dialogue with a pack of irrational people who just toss insults left and right when a point is brought up that they do not agree with.

Not one of you has actually countered any point I've brought up... it is just ad hominem after ad hominem (with a few other fallacies tossed in when convenient).

If you had anything intelligent to say you would have said it by now. But I guess the best you've got is:

"what the fuck is wrong with you???"

"You haven't got a friggin' clue."

Without actually making a coherent point about the issue whatsoever.

Quite frankly nothing I've said should come as a shock to anyone.

No one likes to have to do more work than necessary to get what they are after.

If you want to prove my position wrong, then prove the above statement to be wrong... calling someone names doesn't actually win a debate... all it does it prove that you like to play in the mud.

"My brother says that the men who complain the loudest about women "not liking" them are the ones who have offensive personalities and/or are fat, bald and/or ugly and get pissed off when the "super model" type women they ask out won't go out with them!"

That's fantastic... but who is complaining about women not liking them?... I'm certainly not. In fact I defy you to find one statement I made where I said anything negative about my own personal experience with women.

So what is this addressing exactly when it comes to anything I've said?... you seem to have made up your own statement to argue against.

So let me ask you the same question you asked me... what the fuck is wrong with you?... aren't you beating a dead horse?... you should knock it off!!!

The only problem I have is that I try to open an intellectual dialogue with a pack of irrational people who just toss insults left and right when a point is brought up that they do not agree with.

This is not the case, Jason, you poor thing. You're regergitating the same things over and over again. Please stop.

Not one of you has actually countered any point I've brought up... it is just ad hominem after ad hominem (with a few other fallacies tossed in when convenient).

Pot, kettle, black. YOU are not offering anything to counter but your misguided "insights." They don't wash. See Chrissy's, Amy's, and others remarks here.

Flynne,

Actually I've specifically addressed their points by quoting them, and then talking about those issues directly.

In doing so I never felt the need to call them names, or use personal attacks. The same cannot be said for those who have dissagreed with me.

So no, it isn't the pot calling the kettle black as I have not resorted to ad hominems here... I have not called people angry, losers, wimps, chronic masturbators, etc...

The absolute worst that can be said with regard to my characterization of those who dissagree with me is I called them "irrational"... which quite frankly fits the bill given how they choose to make personal attacks.

I came here for an intelligent conversation and the first response I recieved to my thoughts was that it was irrelevant because I used too many ellipses.

Then when I responded to that criticism by reframing my argument without elipses... I then got criticised for restating my position.

From there insults were tossed out left and right including statements of being delusional... or your current insinuation that I must be complaining about women "not liking" me when I have said nothing of the sort.

None of you have actually dealt with my position in an intellectually credible fashion... all that has been done is that those who dissagree with me have tried to marginalize my position by suggesting that something is wrong with me... my actual position has remained free from assault.

People who do that sort of thing are intellectually dishonest... they have no credability in a debate and are using tactics that while effective on the playground, don't actually amount to a rational argument.

You want to declare that I am "regurgitating the same thing over and over"... but try to consider the following.

Let's say you were dealing with a bunch of people who kept yelling that 2+2=7... and every time you say, "actually 2+2=4... and here are the reasons why"... and they respond with "that's what the mathmaticians say... but it's not what they really mean" as opposed to addressing the reasons why you are saying 2+2 actually equals 4... how would you respond to that?

My options are two fold... I can permit all of you to continue to believe that 2+2=7. Or I can try to educate you a little in the way mathematics actually works.

Contrary to what you and some of the women here think... you don't actually understand men better than men do. That is the core problem here... that my opinion as a man of how men think is deemed less significant that your opinion as a woman of how men think.

If I ever declared that I understood women better than women did, I'm sure I'd hear an ear full from all of you. The reverse is true as well.

That doesn't make me a jerk, it doesn't mean something is wrong with me. What it means is that you have become so used to men just backing down and saying nothing when you dissagree with them that when a man finally stands up and says "no... you are wrong... men aren't like that"... you instantly think that he is the one with the problem.

Let's say you were dealing with a bunch of people who kept yelling that 2+2=7... and every time you say, "actually 2+2=4...

The problem is, Jason, you're the one shouting that 2+2=7...over and over and over again, turning my comments section into a bore.

Purple Pen and others neatly debunk your statements, again and again and again, as do I, and yet you come back to repeat yourself...and are debunked again and again and again.

Your continuing takeover of my comments section makes you a jerk. It also suggests something is wrong with you.

P.S. I suggest a free blog of your own on journalspace.com as a better place for you to explore your genius on the printed page, far away from the meditations of us dense peons.

Amy,

Listen, I'd be happy to concede my points here if any of you actually addressed any of them in a reasonable manner.

Here is what PurplePen had to say that actually related to my position in even a tangential fashion that you are defining as "neat debunking":

"I would have no problem asking men out except I dont like it and they dont like it because of our monkey brains."

"men dont like to be asked out because it intimidates them and makes the woman appear desperate."

"People say one thing and act in the opposite manner."

My entire point is that men do not care who does the asking if they are attracted to the woman... that is it... nothing more, and nothing less.

All of the rest of her posts deal with other issues entirely that aren't what I am even discussing.

What you call "neat debunking" of my position is in actuallity just an off hand dismissal of my argument.

I listed reasons why men would not care if women asked them out even including biological arguments and all I got in return was "you're wrong because they don't like it".

And then you and her both go on this kick about it doesn't even matter if every man on earth says they do not care because apparently men have no idea how they feel on the issue... but both of you have it all figured out and know better.

Sorry, I'm not buying it... as for me being a jerk, or something being wrong with me, take a look Amy... the moment I said anything I had people on this blog criticising me for the gramatical structure of my post.

It isn't me here... instead you have fostered an environment where anyone who doesn't tow the party line is subjected to name calling... and generally it is done by the women here against any man who says something they don't want to hear.

You fall into that catagory as well from time to time.

Believe whatever you want, I realize I'm not going to convince you, but don't think that name calling and just saying "I know how men think better than you" can be categorized as debunking of any sort.

Just for your information as well... did it ever occur to you that the best way to avoid someone repeating themselves is to actually acknowledge their points as opposed to just dismissing them?

That is the only way a conversation moves forward.

Furthermore, you say that I've repeated myself... are you suggesting that everyone I've spoken to has issued new information and new insights with each post?

Or is there a double standard in place?

Jason, give it up. They're not going to listen. Amy's mask has well and truly slipped on this thread. Just another woman who thinks she knows everything about men and will drown in shaming language anything she doesn't want to hear.

Hooray -- deliverance is ours! Thank you, Amy, on behalf of all your loyal readers! Oh, and thank you too, Gregg!

Amy,

If I overheard a girl talking abot what dates she was on?!?! Then I just might assume that all that 'flirting' was BS.

It sounds like he may be getting mixed signals.. I would advice her her to make it obvious that she likes him.

Do the old year 7 love tactic

Beste --What's "the old 7 year love tactic"?

"She's already made it obvious he's interested."

Sure, it's obvious to her that's HE'S interested. But it may not be obvious to him that she's interested.

I used to be one of Glover's nice guys. It sucked. But, with a lot work, I eventually learned to be less shy, and I deprogrammed a lot of feminist garbage from my brain, such that I became able to make a move on women. I now get a lot more dates than when I sat around complaining about how women never make a move. I have a few comments:

1. I don't understand the attitude in this thread that looks down so much on men who have trouble initiating. Yes, these men, and any women interested in them, would probably all be better off if those guys could learn to initiate. I certainly found this to be true in my own life. Yet we have to look at the reasons why they can't or don't initiate. Part of it is that they have been brainwashed into believing that men and women are the same, but it can go even deeper than that. Feminists have made many men feel like their sexuality is inherently predatory and abusive to women. If you combine that brainwashing with a bit of shyness and negative social experiences with people and particularly with women, then we are talking about real psychological damage, that in my case took years to undo to get to the point where I now can initiate with women who are throwing themselves at me.

Guys who can't initiate are not losers; they are victims (or if they are losers, it is because they are victims). That doesn't make them any more dateable from the standpoint of typical heterosexual women, of course, but it does make them more deserving of sympathy and understanding. While some of these men may indeed "not be nice at all," and be filled with "repressed rage and hatred for women," I don't think Glover would support the assumption that they are necessarily that way; it really depends.

2. I believe that heterosexual relationships between most people work best when the guy initiates most of the time. I think the main reason for this is because women prefer men who can initiate. I disagree with both Amy and Jason about men's attitudes towards women initiating: some men care, and some men don't. I think it really depends on the particular man, and on how a woman initiates and how much.

I could make the move and kiss a woman, but if she immediately rams her tongue down my throat, this is more of a turnoff than if the woman makes a move and kisses me sweetly. If a woman asked me out, insisted on choosing where we went, and then initiated the kiss at the end, then yeah, I might feel a bit emasculated, which might result in me being uninterested in a relationship with her, or uninterested in her altogether. The more feminine a woman is in other ways, the more moves she can make on me before I would get turned off or start to see her as only a fling.

Yet if a woman takes the lead once, and then backs off so I can take the lead, I'm perfectly fine with that; in fact, it's a breath of fresh air and makes me feel important and masculine. Really, what matters to me as a man is the overall sense of her attractiveness and femininity. Who asks who out is only one component of that.

3. Just because women on average are probably better off going for guys who can initiate, it doesn't mean that this is necessarily the solution for the LW in this particular case. I would say that if she is really crazy about him, then she should either ask him out, or hint explicitly and verbally that he should do so. After that, the ball should be in his court, and any future advances should be up to him. Of course, if this doesn't work out, then things could get uncomfortable at work. Yet if that's a big concern, then she shouldn't be thinking about anything romantic with him in the first place. As for his red face, that sounds like a combination of blushing and jealousy to me.

To Jason, if you are still reading this thread: since you don't seem to be welcome here, I am happy to take you off Amy's hands, and I invite you to come hang out at my blog.

Beste: I think Amy meant to say "She's already made it obvious SHE's interested" -- I think it was a typo.

And I still want to know what you mean by the "old 7 year love tactic." Am I missing something here??

It sucks being shy, and the work environment doesn't make it any easier. I have two kids who depend on me. A mistake in this area would get me fired, and us homeless. It's just not worth it.

I watch people smoothly and casually ask someone out, but the art of it escapes me. "No" is an ok answer, but "EWWW! The creepy guy is bothering me!" could affect more than just my embarassment for the day.

I hate being shy. There's been more than one occaision that I've felt comfortable enough to approach someone and ask, only to find out they've just started dating someone seriously.

Yup, I get that confidence is an attractive trait, and it tends to go hand in hand with success. One of the other (women) posters mentioned that she's pretty successful, a good catch, etc., and that she "intimidates men". It's not so much that I'm any more or less intimidated by her success, it's just that I doubt you'd be happy with my company in the long run, and would likely have more interest in someone who's driven at the same level, and has achieved a similar level of success. Google "alpha women, beta men" for an interesting read on how that kind of dynamic tends to work out. (It doesn't).

HughRistik: At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I'd like to make a couple of BRIEF comments:

There's been much discussion on this thread of us women being brainwashed by feminist propoganda. Having a low opinion of men doesn't necessarily result from that; it could well result from having had one too many experiences with the "playa"-type guys who give the rest of you-all a bad name.

But I thought your comments were reasonable and well-balanced. I agree that the handling of the initiation process all depends on the situation, the people involved, and how they tackle it. It's a delicate matter, requiring a sense of how much is too much -- and this would apply to both genders, but if the female is doing the initiating, then a much lighter touch is nnecessary than if it's the male.

Gretz: One way to get your confidence up would be to see a lot of women on a recurring basis -- the better you get to know them, the easier it would be to ask them out. I'm speaking of a hobby club, an evening class, a volunteering situation, a political committee, etc.

If you are being rejected a lot, you probably could benefit from some professional advice -- say from an image consultant, a matchmaker, or even an outspoken friend. Could be there is something about you that is a turnoff, be it your grooming, style of dress (or lack thereof), personality quirks, or whatever. Whatever it is, it could no doubt easily be fixed. After all, somebody found you attractive enough to have your children.

Also it might be a good idea to contact Hugh Ristik, who mentioned above that he has a blog. He probably would have some helpful suggestions.

P.S. Good luck!

First of all, Amy is making references to biological "Theories" of behaviour. Ones that say since men have testosterone they should ask women out! Is this a fact, or a thing we read sometimes. The fact that I, as a woman can ask out a guy right now, and have him say yes, and have him not be a freak of nature, or a weiner proves this is not a biological imperative, it's just more common. Is this guy definately filled with toxic shame? Pfffff. Maybe, maybe not. Making a long-distance diagnosis that self-assured is embarrassingly unprofessional. People are many different ways for thousands of different reasons. It's those pop-psychology books that make people believe you can just slip everyone into a easy definition. He may not be able to ask her out, but that doesn't mean, for sure anything else about him. But just to be safe though write em' off cause you don't want a guy who isn't a masculine cliche.

After reading more of these comments I am sad to report that this forum is not a forum at all. This Jason fellow that didn't agree with Amy is banned, but he was the most literate, and it's true that no one actually responded to what he said. Especially not Amy, but not her loyal henchman responders either.
Let's lay down what's obvious. People who like to read this column like everything Amy says and so defend her against people with different opinions who are totally dumb, or lonely or pathetic or fat. Amy's arguments would never stand up against a more unbiased jury. It so happens, Amy likes being asked out, and thus the rest of the world must follow suite. Unfortunately the rest of us all live our lives in vastly different ways, for example my mom asked my dad to marry her. Other options include women putting their hands on men's thighs, women asking men to movies, and women saying hey let's go mini golfing. There are no rules to life or dating. Making up rules and justifying them with biology is crap. Anyone can do whatever they want. Open your mind. Your living in a traditional vortex. I would think a true feminist would find some pleasure in this new vast territory of lawlessness

That's very hostile of you to call me an asshole. What a lovely forum you have going on here. I'll stop by again soon.

P.S. I didn't say FUCK him, I said mini golf him.

That's very hostile of you to call me an asshole

Uh, Claire, I can be rather hostile, but I didn't call you an asshole.

Clearly, there's good reason why you claim to think Jason is the most "literate" person commenting here.

I'll repeat my little joke:

"Claire, if assumptions were assholes, you'd be traveling with the World's Fair."

This means that you 1. Make many assumptions. 2. And if assumptions were anuses, you'd have about 20 anuses, and would be in a freak show.

You can laugh now. Further joke translations will cost you 50 cents, payable into the PayPal button on my blog.

PS See above. You're free to call me an asshole if you feel it's justified (please offer supporting material that actually supports your cause in the future), and you'll still be allowed in.

women saying hey let's go mini golfing.

Claire, the hole men are interested in is not the one through the clown's nostril.

You make this too easy. It's like TNTing fish in a barrel.

I feel like your picking on me. Maybe it'd make a difference to you to know I'm quite young. Yeah I haven't read every biology book yet. Anyway, I thought my comments were n't harsh toward you and if they were I'm sorry. Maybe I don't know your sense of humour but I'm really upset. My mini golf post was supposed to be sorta a joke. Maybe I have some untested opinions, but I don't wanna be berated for them. I just wanted to post something on here.

Thanks for the encouragement, Pussnboots.

For what it's worth, I've been asked out a few times, once by someone calling a wrong number.

I'd be fine with being asked out, (relieved, actually), and happy that someone found my company interesting enough to invite me out. In my case, it wouldn't spoil my impression of them. I'd be fine with it if it wasn't so rare.

Wait, Chuckles is banned? Here I've been half-afraid he was going to pop back up and resume memoing us to death. Now Jason is gone too?

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
And it is often very difficult to read a woman's mind.

Guys seeking only sex, or who went through that phase are often very suave. The guy who has a breaking heart from loneliness, who has been laughed at, who just needs someone to love, he has a hard time asking women out, because he only asks them out if he really, really likes her to start with. Sometimes it is easier to keep dreaming that she may love him someday than it is to ask her out and have the dream crash down on him, leaving him in the reality of "no one, no one ever will love me". Maybe what I described is not healthy, but having a shredded heart shouldn't cause complete shunning.

Kimberly,

I stopped posting because I lost interest... and because other more important things in life came up... not due to any banning.

I tried my best to reason with the people here, but sometimes you just have to accept that some people already think they've got it all figured out, and no matter how polite or reasonable you are with them, that it is just a waste of time trying to hold a civil conversation with them.

That being said, have fun ;)

Hold on one second lol... apparently Amy is the one saying I got banned.

Well if that is the case then you didn't do a very good job because this is the first time I even tried to post here since last time and it doesn't look like I'm having any trouble.

At least be honest here Amy... you didn't make some authoritative manuever. I just stopped responding.

But if you feel you need to save face with your "public" by making it seem like it was your own doing, go right ahead.

Anyway, as I said before... have fun... but let's be at least try to have a modicum more integrity and honesty about why I haven't posted here.

Amy,

The only reason I would "jump" to that conclusion is because I literally didn't even look at this website for 20 days... then the moment I try to post anything it goes through without any problem whatsoever.

What I find hillarious is how you are trying to usurp credit for something you had nothing to do with. I stopped posting because I lost interest, not because I was incapable of saying anything.

One would think you would be happy about that and thank me... but instead you have to make it seem like I've been desperately trying to communicate here but just couldn't because you put a stop to it. Sorry to burst your bubble... but I lost interest because you actually bored me.

I bet when a guy stops calling you, you tell all your girl friends it is because you changed your number... even when it is exactly the same.

As for the subject of being a "bore"... it seems that while I was gone I was the principle topic of conversation, and even apparently aroused the interest of people I've never even spoken with before and was specifically invited to spend my time chatting with them.

Sure sounds like what happens to a boring person huh?

Ban whoever you like... but at least be honest about it, being boring had nothing to do with it and everything to do with the fact that you like preaching to the choir, and I'm from a conflicting "faith".

This is my first attempt to post here since the 26th... let's see if it goes through, shall we?... if it does I think my point will have been made that your actions had absolutely nothing to do with my departure from the conversation, so you basically wasted your time.

Jason, you're now posting from a different IP. Thanks, I'll ban this one, too. Should you become unboring, e-mail me, and I'll consider letting you back in.

Jason (in brief, because I'm at an ev psych conference in New Hampshire listening to Susan M. Hughes on kissing, and she's quite interesting)...you're boring because you post the same thing over and over and over again, and seem incapable of being influenced by rational arguments. You turn every discussion you're in into tedium, and other commenters have asked me to ban you.

Regarding one of your huffy assumptions just above, if a guy stopped calling me (I have a boyfriend of five-plus years, so I'm not taking calls from guys who are looking for more than friendship) I would stop thinking about him, because obviously, he was either in a coma or dead, or more likely, not interested in me.

Hmm hate to necro a dieing topic but it seems both sides have valid points.
The whole dating in the work place...ehh yeah
Two general rules come to mind.

Rule 1: Heck no(seen to much work place drama about it)

Rule 2 But if the person has a reputation for being a good person.. maybe(often co-workers tend to socialize outside of work)

The Corollary to rule 2 for us dudes is in the work place the women always asks the guy out due to liability issue's. Might sound spineless but with the negative consequences associated with sexual harassment the risk's tend to out weigh the gains.

But the whole thing with about him becoming red faced(mad) sounds odd. I could understand if he seemed unhappy or walked away but the fact he got mad does tend to lend weight to the theory that he might have mental issue's(if the situation was reversed and I knew a chick liked me and I was talking about a date and she got angry that would send a clear warning signal to stay 10 yards away....)

Yes, I realize this thread has been inactive for almost a year but I have to agree with everything Jason posted and most of HughRistik's last post.

Generally, I think people should do what works for them. I also think there is something to be said for both genders doing the asking and flirting/waiting to be asked (if that fits into their preferences). Like someone said earlier it is fun to be the seducer as well as the seduced.

On another note I though the name calling and thinly veiled insults were nasty and uncalled for.

Since when has asking a co-worker out for a date sexual harassment?

I'll answer that question with another question.

Since when has talking about a previous night's television show around the water cooler been sexual harassment, as what happened several years ago when a guy was talking to a friend about a "Seinfeld" episode.?