Beautiful.

Posted by: kg at March 26, 2008 5:33 AM

Right? If he hasn't got the cojones, no need for you to bring yours out. Onward to the next one, no looking back! If he does end up asking you out, and you say yes, tread very carefully.

Posted by: Flynne at March 26, 2008 5:54 AM

This column constitutes some of the worst advice I've read on this site. I think this is because Miss Alkon is projecting her own taste in men onto the situation.

On the other hand, I am about to project my own experiences on the situation...

I can identify with the man in this story here. I too had a lot of difficulty asking women out. I don't think this is because of some lack of masculinity. My evidence for this is that I've been in quite a few relationships, some were long and some were short, and I'm currently in a relationship with a wonderful woman for almost the past two years. In each case the woman ended up making the first move (but once we were set up by a friend of mine). Clearly after that, everything proceeded normally and my inability to ask her out made no difference. My relationships did not end because of some weakness, but in two cases because I moved or she moved after college, or getting a new job. The shorter term relationships ended because of incompatability, which is the usual reason I think and not by itself evidence that difficulty asking a woman on a date is going to cause problems.

My point is: she should ask him out, it could go very well. I suppose there's some chance it won't and maybe he will be like Glover's passive agressive loser. But I think it's much more likely that he's just some guy who's a bit shy, especially with a woman he'll have to see every day if things go poorly, and once the initial move is made he'll be a great guy.

Posted by: Bill at March 26, 2008 6:15 AM

Amy has it down to the letter and with great prose. Something that would keep me in this holding-pattern situation is to consider that she is a co-worker, which could translate into harrassment. I flirt with a few ladies that I work with, but don't take it any further because of that fear, no matter how obvious it may be that they are into me.

Posted by: kbling at March 26, 2008 6:25 AM

You rocket scientist ever stop to think that maybe the guy knows better than to date a co-worker even though he may be very interested? You same cows who moan all day long in offices around the country about how men for some weird reason shy away from you at all costs. For some unknown reason that can't possibly have anything to do with your own behavior. No can't be that. Must be something wrong with men.

Try to drop your condescending double standards for one millisecond. We all know who gets charged with sexual harassement and who does not. Grow up. The legal gun is not pointed at your head.

Now that you have a man interested in you for the first time in 10 years it may be time for you to break away from the herd. You all glory in yourselves about how strong and independent you are now is your chance to show it. Go up to the guy and reassure him your not some closet feminazi fresh out of womyn studies waiting to strike out at all men for being male.

You may be shocked when he comes up with the idea of meeting up for drink later.

Posted by: cybro at March 26, 2008 6:29 AM

Jesus, Cybro, somebody piss in your coffee this morning?

I do agree with Amy's advice to let him do the asking. This is, of course, biased on my part. When I have done the asking, I have always been disappointed in the boy I ended up with, and I do mean boy.

That said, if she's going to stick with letting him make the first move, then it doesn't really matter whether he's reluctant because he's a wuss or because he's afraid of a lawsuit. He's not asking. Time to move on.

Posted by: Monica at March 26, 2008 6:41 AM

Woah cybro -- bitter much? If the guy, after working with the woman for several months now, hasn't even learned enough about her to decide whether she's a feminazi or not, then I'd say there is something wrong with him. Maybe just bad judgement or poor social skills (which are a unisex traits, BTW), but still…

While admittedly off-topic, the above response make me curious about the psychology around coming into someone else's web space and immediately disagreeing with such vitriol. Naturally as an advice/opinion page, there is bound to be disagreement and experiences on both sides of the debate, but starting at name calling doesn’t leave much room for discussion. Would the response be the same in a face-to-face conversation?

If I ever get done the other books I’ve got stacked on my waiting list, I may look into this one as well. The short description in the column reminds me of my ex-husband and I never could figure out how he could present himself as being fairly decent, but was actually a really angry asshole when you got to know him. Not that it matters anymore…thanks for another book reference, Amy!

Posted by: moreta at March 26, 2008 6:58 AM

Cybro, referring sarcastically to women as "rocket scientists", or moaning, condescending "cows" who attend "womyn studies" and finally have "a man interested in you for the first time in 10 years" might be part of the problem.

I've asked women out at work, and I've consistently received one of two responses -- "yes" or "no".

Getting turned down doesn't send me into spasmodic paroxysms of twitching rage or put me into a ninja suit in the bushes outside of her house.

So I have to ask if you've *actually* been charged with harassment and/or stalking, or if you're one of those guys who are so fearful of rejection that they cook up the inevitability of legal trouble in a boiling teapot of bile that sometimes inexplicably takes over for the brain?

Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 26, 2008 7:15 AM

Normally I agree with Amy, and definitely agree with letting the guy make the first move, but there are exceptions to every rule. If I hadn't put the moves on my husband first, we'd still be just friends. Some guys aren't going to make that move for whatever reason. Only you can judge the situation. By the way, my husband is very much the "man" in most situations. He isn't shy or anything like that, he was just very inexperienced with women.

Now, this guy the LW writes about? Not someone to make an exception to this rule for. Anyone who reacts like that to news that someone he's not dating has a date is bad news. Steer clear, this guy's got potential abuser written all over him - seems like a "sweetheart" doesn't mean he's not a closet nutbag.

Posted by: Ang at March 26, 2008 7:20 AM

"Anyone who reacts like that to news that someone he's not dating has a date is bad news. Steer clear, this guy's got potential abuser written all over him" That was my first and immediate thought. Once he or she shows that reaction get the hell away from them as fast as possible.

Everything else says nice guy who's shy. That red faced reaction smells of obsession, boundary issues, and general instability.

cybro: Why do I get the feeling that women avoided you with legit reason. Vitrol of that level will usually turn off all women. Even when said in jest (shit learned that one the hard way) it's usually a bad idea. Given that you actually mean it makes it worse.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 7:57 AM

I loved the "cows" bit.

Since when did asking someone for a drink constitute sexual harrassment?

Posted by: kg at March 26, 2008 8:25 AM

I agree with vlad. As soon as I read the beet-red face reaction, I thought to myself, steer clear of this guy.

I think she shouldn't bother trying to date guys she works with because of the potential for lawsuits. Give it up already!

Posted by: Chrissy at March 26, 2008 9:07 AM

Since when did asking someone for a drink constitute sexual harassment?

Since women said it did. Honestly, I don't believe the vast majority of women would get upset over being asked out only. However, were I considering asking out a female co-worker that I had an interest in, without knowing her very well outside of work, I would take the possibility of a sexual harassment claim into consideration in making my decision.

She claims she's been flirting with him, but has he really been getting the message? I think for the most part, we men are terrible at reading women's signals. I recently read about one study where men were unable to correctly differentiate between signals of sexual interest and the "just being friendly" variety 70% of the time. So there's a good chance this guy isn't even getting the message, or he is and is just afraid he's misinterpreting it, erring on the side of safety - can't say I blame him.

I'm all for equality between men and women. That means equal responsibility as well as equal privilege. Equal responsibility means taking the initiative from time to time, and risk of rejection that goes with it, and asking us out. It seems pretty clear that he has an interest in her, and she knows that, and she really likes him and thinks he's a sweet heart, so what's the big deal? He probably doesn't realize that she likes him, so he sees asking her out as a bigger risk of rejection than she would see asking him out. I think Amy's wrong on this one...

Posted by: Ben at March 26, 2008 9:19 AM

"I think for the most part, we men are terrible at reading women's signals." Yes, but the guys reaction to her having a date with someone else shows that he is not ignorant of her intentions. Had he have been more hurt (saddened) as opposed to the anger response (beat red face) I'd agree.

I'm all for women asking men out.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 10:02 AM

"Just like you're tempted to do with the co-worker whose male role models are clearly less Navy SEAL than baby seal." BTW just cause a guy was trained to kill and may or may not have done so does not mean they have the slightest chance in hell of getting social cues. That has nothing to do with knowing the weak points on a battle tank. A womens reaction can be far more varied then the types of enemy armor you'd encounter. Experience in a combat situation does not translate well in most civilian social areas.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 10:07 AM

"I'm all for equality between men and women."

I understand WHY you said this, but, really, it doesn't make sense. I think there is more of a balance of the sexes than an equality of. Also,

"He probably doesn't realize that she likes him, so he sees asking her out as a bigger risk of rejection than she would see asking him out."

At my age, it is just not attractive to me when a man can't "realize" or "risk rejection." And I haven't had success with asking men out because, in my experience, the "balance" then becomes imbalanced, so it flops. Most of the guys I would be attracted to long term would be somewhat emasculated by my asking anyway.

I just want to say this, and it's gonna sound conceited: I'm a pretty good catch monitarily, emotionally, fun-factor-ily, conversationally, bootiliciously.....but I rarely date. I will pretty much date anyone who is interesting and, of course, legal. Most people don't interest me, and the ones who do are generally attached, and I don't go there. I live in a very small town and because of my job I'm pretty well-known, but/and I considered intimidating (I've been told) to many men because of my position, and probably my personality as well. As a result, I rarely get asked out by men around here. Last week, a guy who I have run into from time to time got into a pickle with his work. I lent him a hand, just being friendly. A day after that, he stopped by my office "just to say hey," but as he was leaving he asked me to lunch for the next day. He was so smooth and confident about it, I couldn't say no. Then, the way he got my number in this oh-so-natural-very-cool way made me think about him all night long. I was so looking forward to the lunch date, which is rare for me because I had decided I didn't want to date for another year or so. Anyway, the date was great, we never stopped talking, and we are going to go out this weekend. People have already called me asking me if it was true that I was seen out with a guy one-on-one. (Yes, the town is really that small.) Not that it matters, but the guy is paralized from the waist down. Still, he takes life by the balls and seeks out what he wants, and I'm sorry, but that is more attractive in a man than one who can barely sputter out, "Woouuulddd Yooouu...." and then wants me to finish. I guess some people find the shy-type endearing, but that's just too much trouble to me.

Posted by: kg at March 26, 2008 10:59 AM

Gotta say you struck a cord with me with this column Amy. I vivdly remember being "the guy" in a few relationships. I hated it. They couldn't even man-up enough to do anything but whimper when I dumped them. And I can only blame myself - I asked each and every one of those losers out.

Maybe asking him out would be enough to get him over the hump. It is the workplace and even the most ballsy of guys have to think twice (or more) about asking someone out there. I've heard some real horror stories about women who pull out the 'sexual harassment' card far too cavalierly.

Posted by: Elle at March 26, 2008 10:59 AM

"Just like you're tempted to do with the co-worker whose male role models are clearly less Navy SEAL than baby seal."

I absolutely love that line! My husband is a shy, reserved individual, but he was man enough to call me up and ask me out on a date. We even worked together at the time. I would steer clear of this guy because there are too many red flags!

Posted by: pjewhurst at March 26, 2008 11:51 AM

Vlad, I'm fairly certain that Amy wasn't being literal with the Navy SEAL/baby seal comment. She's not saying in the slightest that women should look for men who are trained to kill, as oposed to adorable little baby animals that dwell near water.

I'm fairly certain that was a fun way of pointing out the difference between a man who'll ask you out with some sort of confidence, and a man who's only HEARD of dates via rough description.

Everything else you've said in this thread, however, is right on the money.

Posted by: may at March 26, 2008 12:18 PM

Oh, and there's supposed to be an "also" somewhere in the second "I'm fairly certain".

Go, me.

Posted by: may at March 26, 2008 12:19 PM

"Vlad, I'm fairly certain that Amy wasn't being literal with the Navy SEAL/baby seal comment. " Oh I know all I'm saying is that being a "manly man" balls to the wall and fearless in most aspects doesn't mean women still won't scare the shit out of you.

Just cause asking a women out makes one shake with fear and anxiety doesn't mean your a wet blanket (or baby seal) in other aspects. While I was single asking a girl out scared the ever living shit out of me. On weekends I'd do subsurface welding at a power plant and see nothing remotely frightening.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 12:45 PM

For Bill, who says he can't ask women out but it isn't for lack of masculinity: My boyfriend and my friend Nancy's husband are introverts to the max, but both managed to man up and ask us out and call us. It's not "shyness" that prevents a guy from asking women out, and women should not ask men out, as there are biological reasons (and psychological reasons) men need to do the pursuing. You can tell us the reason you don't ask women out -- the reason within you -- didn't come into play in the relationship, and guess what: I don't believe it for a minute.

PS Is it Glover's experience dating men that gives him this opinion as well? I believe he's heterosexual and married, but perhaps I should look for him in the Manhole or The Ramrod on weekends?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 26, 2008 12:55 PM

"didn't come into play in the relationship" Possibly but the fact that asking women out was not part of the relationship I can't think of any instances. There may have been causation that I'm not aware of but I'm just basically scared stupid to ask women out.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 1:11 PM

Once I'm past the invitation for the first date no problems what so ever.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 1:13 PM

About ten years ago, I was working at a large, well known financial corporation. A woman in my department was having sex on a regular basis with our boss. A guy in another department politely asked her if she’d like to go for coffee sometime. She complained to the Human Resources department and they promptly gave him a stern talking to and a written warning. Ho, ho, ho - what a fucking loser!

At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no. Finally, she complained to HR. He was fired and banned from ever working for that corporation again in any capacity. Additionally, he is, of course, unable to receive a recommendation from the company at which he worked for fifteen years so his working life and career are finished. Ha, ha, what a fag!

But of course, a man who hesitates to ask a woman at work out is nutless, a wimp, spineless, loser, etc. And don't forget to call them Goddesses, wimp!

American women are a collective supernova of massive arrogance and bitchiness. They are as mentally balanced and fair as Idi Amin and just as attractive. And it's all mens' fault because men are so inherently inferior. Bitches, you deserve to be alone.

Posted by: DF at March 26, 2008 2:20 PM

Suggest you read Glover's book, and just do it. Also, don't take it personally if they say no, just as a sign to move on to the next. Ideally, your self-worth should not be connected to whether other people approve of you. (This is why it's called "self-worth" not "other people like me-worth.")

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 26, 2008 2:20 PM

DF, life calls for judgement, first of all.

Second, because the HR department comes down on somebody for asking somebody out once doesn't mean they're correct or abiding by the law. The law is about persistent contact after the person makes it verbally clear or clear in writing that the attention is unwanted. If there's a corporate policy against fraternization that's different. Then any asking out is prohibited.

You seem to be overflowing with rage against women. Some women are bitchy and arrogant. Is that really the problem or is it that you're too dense to know which ones to avoid?

I'm very sweet to my boyfriend, and have never said a mean word to him. He doesn't deserve it, first of all, and you get the relationship you create. If you weren't so convinced that all women are bitches, you might look at women as individuals and find a woman like me, who'll treat you like she never forgets that she loves you.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 26, 2008 2:25 PM

I know this is an advice column, not fair and balanced reporting, but really let's not forget we're getting some heavily editorial comment from LW: "still flirting," "beet red," "wierd," "frustrated."

Other reasons he may not want to ask her out:

1. He's not attracted to her.
2. He doesn't want to ask out someone from the workplace.
3. He's involved with someone.
4. He's gay.

Of course, the advice remains the same. She shouldn't pursue him any further. I just think its funny that so many are ready to brand the guy as a smoldering furnace of passive rage.

Posted by: snakeman99 at March 26, 2008 2:33 PM

Piss. Can't believe I misspelled "weird." Bye bye, credibility.

Posted by: snakeman99 at March 26, 2008 2:36 PM

If either party in a flirtatious semi-relationship desires that things go farther, what's wrong with saying, "I'm walking over to Starbucks, wanna come along?" Chat over coffee and get a better sense of the person outside of work. If it's a go, then consider the sexual harassment issues, the dating a coworker issues, and any other issues you may have - then make a decision!

If she wants him to ask her out, ask him to walk over to Starbucks (or, preferably, Peet's) with her. She may be able to get a better sense of how psycho this guy is in a casual non-work-constrained interaction.

His beet red anger may have been at himself for not "manning up" and asking her out. Or, he may have been upset at the way she badmouthed her date (if she did).

In general, I agree with Amy; if a guy's interested (even a painfully shy guy), he'll find a way to ask. However, sometimes women give off mixed signals (at least in the guy's perspective - "Frasier" did an episode about this). In a co-worker relationship, misreading signals can be career suicide, so guys in that situation may hesitate to ask.

She needs to find a way to let him know he's been pre-approved for the loan.

Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at March 26, 2008 2:42 PM

At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no.

DF, I don't care how many times your grandfather asked your grandmother out and how many years they've been married since then. These days, if you ask a coworker out and that coworker says no, drop it. "Repeatedly" means that guy was a dumbass.

I'm not saying he deserved permanent banishment, but he drove down a mountain road wearing a blindfold and, despite repeatedly bumping the guardrail, he pushed the accelerator. The crash was inevitable.

Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at March 26, 2008 2:47 PM

"American women are a collective supernova of massive arrogance and bitchiness."

Holy crap, DF! As a Canadian woman I feel kind of left out. Clearly my northern sisters and I have some work to do.

Posted by: loopychick at March 26, 2008 3:10 PM

"At a retailer I worked at briefly, a guy in one department repeatedly asked a co-worker out and she repeatedly said no." Then why did he not stop? In this case it was harassment and she had every right to report him. If he asks her out and she says no then he should have been smart enough to leave her alone.

The first story sucks and it does happen but just cause one women is bat shit crazy doesn't mean all women are. Also before you ask out a women at work take some time to sniff around. Trying to snag the bosses play thing is a supremely stupid move.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 3:15 PM

Amy - "You seem to be overflowing with rage against women." And how would you characterize calling men nutless wimps and losers as you repeatedly do in your columns? That is, no doubt, merely the voice of a "proud", "assertive", "strong" woman. Excuse me, I meant "goddess".

Talking about what an HR department should theoretically do after the fact is one thing. Living through what actually happens is something else. Women get all kinds of latitude in situations where men get the workplace equivalent of the death penalty. Yeah, no shit I'm angry.

Notice how all the responses so far blame the men in these situations for not being "smart enough" to avoid getting royally hosed. Ah, yes, another failing of men. They're just so dumb, aren't they?

Women have been brainwashed to believe they are better than men and, perhaps even worse than that, so have men. Most guys I know are so beaten down from being told their entire lives that they are stupid, evil brutes that they pretty much believe it and do whatever their wives/girlfriends tell them to. Look, more and more guys are opting out of this "relationship" horseshit and just getting sex and that trend's only going to grow. A woman may need a man like a fish needs a bicycle but a man needs a woman like he needs a bleeding hole in his head.

Posted by: DF at March 26, 2008 3:44 PM

"The first story sucks and it does happen but just cause one women is bat shit crazy doesn't mean all women are." The proceeding comment was basically don't date bat shit crazy women and don't even go near them at work. How do you tell if a women is bat shit crazy, I don't' know thus I don't' touch anything at work ever.

Posted by: vlad at March 26, 2008 3:49 PM

DF,

I really hate what happened to you, but you're slowly killing yourself in your rage. Also, if you have read a lot of what Amy writes concerning men, you would know she is not a man basher. Did you read her blog earlier this week about females who falsely accuse males of rape? Her belief is that the dip shit girls should get the exact amount of time the man would have gotten had he been found guilty. I'm sorry about your shitty experiences with women, but come on! Do you really believe all women are the same?

Posted by: kg at March 26, 2008 5:12 PM

DF writes:
And how would you characterize calling men nutless wimps and losers as you repeatedly do in your columns?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any of those examples.

Maybe you were thinking of those columns where I defend men against myths of the feminists, rail against paternity fraud against men, and talk about how male sexuality is very visual, and that isn't wrong, just different from female sexuality? Yeah, I'm a real man-hater, and I guess those men's movement sites that link to me and thank me for being fair to men are passing around LSD to every commenter.

If I'm some special friend to women alone, how come so many feminists seem to hate me and try to get me fired? In fact, a women's studies class in Pennsylvania had it as their class assignment to write letters to the editor to get my column dumped from the paper. Oh yeah, and Glenn Sacks, a men's movement blogger and columnist, asked me if we could start cross posting occasional entries on each other's sites -- a great idea I want to do after the current website construction problems are worked out. Hmmm, do you think it's because I'm so hateful and demeaning to men? Or, perhaps, because I'm the opposite?

I blame lots of people for not living consciously -- gender isn't a factor. It's much easier to say "All men are assholes" or "All women are psycho bitches" than to take responsibility for looking at who you get involved with instead of just closing your eyes and jumping in and hoping it all works out okay.

I think Glover is terrific because he's working to undo the bad things feminism has done to men -- including giving wimpy men the idea that they can get away with not behaving like men. He explains why men should be asking women out, asking for what they want, standing up for themselves instead of being pushed around, and shows them how to get to those points.

I have an amazing boyfriend because I'm one of those people who looked very intently at everyone she dated. I spent much of my 30's alone, going on one date with a whole lot of guys. Because I was fine being alone (and in fact, don't believe in marrriage or living with somebody), I was able to just be alone until I met my boyfriend five-plus years ago. He's spent days revamping my website, and it isn't because I asked him to, or because he has to, and it probably isn't because I'm some psycho bitch, huh? There is always that possibility that I put something in his coffee - maybe that same stuff they put in the comments form at GlennSacks.com to make the guys there think I have a fair approach to relationships between men and women.

Whaddya think, Socrates?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 26, 2008 7:52 PM

They're right DF, you've got alot of hostility there. Look, I've spent alot of time overseas, enough to see definite differences in between the way women in the U.S. treat men, vs the way women in Europe treat men. I'll be the first to agree, in Europe things are alot better, I was spoilt by Europeans. *l* But just because the broad strokes of the differences are true, does not mean every strand of the brush is identical. Alot of women in the U.S. are perfectly rational, appreciate the differences between sexes, and like nothing more than for their men to be MEN. Take the letter writer, she just wants the man to be a man, he refuses to be, and asks Amy if she should take the bull by the horns. The answer is just the kind any man would appreciate, let him take action by asking, or take action, even if that means he does nothing. Maybe it is because he's had some women like you describe, and his concern for career is greater than his desire for her company.

Sure alot of the problem may rest with women who feel so threatened by men that they complain to the authorities when one asks them out, making all other men a little bit more paranoid. But a little time around someone should give any reasonable man an idea whether someone is an HR addict or not. Does she spell "women" womyn? Leave her be. Does she talk about her days as a feminist scholar before she gave up and joined the patriarchy? Leave her be. Does she complain long and loud about how every man has screwed her over, or how her past boyfriends had no sense of humor about her public insults? Leave her be.

Does she touch your arm, and laugh at your jokes, ask what your weekend was like, and glance over at you from her desk for no obvious reason, and when (if) she discusses exes, she can and does say good things about them? She's not a psycho, she's at least a little interested...ASK HER OUT. If she says no, well so what, that might not even mean "never", ask out another, still friends with the one who turned you down, maybe ask her out again a few months down the line. (not every day).

Exercise some judgement, and you won't be nearly so bitter, don't be so bitter, you might attract someone worth attracting. Don't treat her like a she's a harpy for having a vagina, you won't be the man that feminazis bitch about to no end. The way I see it DF, your bitterness and rage is just what feminists crow about all the time. *L* Its ironic, you've become just what the ones you hate say you are.

Just keep a few things in mind:

All women are not sadistic feminazis, just some are. Leave that "some" alone, let them die bitter, angry, and alone in their old age, that's revenge enough if you need it.

Some women LIKE men, so BE one, and do what you can to be the BEST of what makes a man a man. Courtesy, decency, a spine...you know the characteristics I speak of.

Go for the women who LIKE those things.

Take some time and do a little self examination, you wrote with bitterness about how it is "always the man's fault" you know full well its not always the man's fault, some just make it look that way for their own sick agendas. However just because it isn't ALWAYS, doesn't mean it NEVER is either.

Sometimes men can do wrong, realize that, realize that you are one of those men, capable of doing proper or improper in equal measure according to the choices you yourself make. From what you wrote, I assume you've wound up with some real psychos or had one do a real number on you growing up.

So how about you just take some time off the whole thing and do a total reevaluation of yourself, even perhaps get some therapy to work on your anger issues. Then when you're sane again and can look at a woman without foaming at the mouth, ask if she'd like to have a cup of coffee with you. If she doesn't, well you know what, she's replaceable, rejection by one is not rejection by the entire gender, go up to another one and give it a shot.

Posted by: SGT Robert H. Butler at March 26, 2008 10:56 PM

I have been in the guy's position before. Fishing off the company dock is always a risky idea. While it is rare that someone gets in a whole bunch of trouble without asking for it - the chances are far from trivial and the consquences huge.

"It's not "shyness" that prevents a guy from asking women out, and women should not ask men out, as there are biological reasons (and psychological reasons) men need to do the pursuing." Casual observation says that the man pursuing is the most common event though far from required. Could you explain why you hold this believe?

Please don't boost Mr. Glover. He does have a strong case on an extremely small number of people that he tries to apply to alot of people (based on my observations). If you are really a fan of his, he does hold some classes at Discover U in Seattle (and possibly others). If you really think that the guy is one that Mr. Glover does write about then that is different though that to me would seem like a huge assumption.

Posted by: Careful Fisherman at March 26, 2008 11:12 PM

I get a new boyfriend every couple of months, my new one didnt hesistate to jump out of his car to run down the street and get my number (I was with a couple of friends, and we were were outside a club). He thought I was that cute that he had to have my number. I still cant believe it. He didnt give up, he took me out on dates, and he called when he said he would. He pursued, and pursued and in the end he got what he wanted, a budding relationship with me. An actual relationship with me is hard to get and he just won me over. I've never heard him complain about how hard he had to try and that's another aspect that won me over. But if you must now I would loooove to be able to ask men out, if it worked. If I was a gay guy I'd have no prob. asking men out, and if i was a lesbian I'd have no prob. asking women out. Problem is I'm a heterosexual woman and doing the asking does not work cuz our monkey brains arent set up for it.

Posted by: PurplePen at March 26, 2008 11:39 PM

It's not an "extremely small number of people." There are many, many guys who take refuge in the ridiculous notions of feminism that men and women are the same. Also, many men who are passive and passive-aggressive. Glover's book is great, and I frequently get notes of gratitude from men I've recommended it to.

I have to go to bed now, but I've written about this numerous times, about the evolutionary origins of our behavior (we still have very old psychology), and how the advent of the women's movement hasn't changed our genetic makeup. Women in the Pleistocene had to be very careful about who they had sex with because pregnancy was the cost -- an even more enormous cost back in those days. They had to be sure the guy would stick around and be a provider. It was a survival issue. Men, on the other hand, could fuck anything with legs and an opening between then, and walk away. So, due to this evolutionary history, women evolved to be the pursuees and men, the pursuers, and men tend to devalue women who come to them too easily, especially women who chase them. It's encoded in our genes.

Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't. What they love is not being rejected. Women asking men out sets up a bad balance in the relationship.

Read David Buss' Evolution of Desire for more on this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046500802X?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=046500802X

Purple Pen, I loved your story. I went out with the guy who gave me the frog in my old advice column photo because he was adorably persistent like that. It means a lot, too, that my boyfriend, who is quiet and reclusive, asked me out for a drink after we met (we had Orange Crush at the Farmer's Market for hours) and even grabbed me and kissed me when he walked me to my car after we met. I didn't come down for days.

That's what being a man is, not festering for months and not asking a girl out. That's just pathetic.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 27, 2008 2:00 AM

Rummaging through my collective experiences, I have recalled a time when I pursued a lady (ok, she was a hot 22 year old, me 33). We had been friendly to each other for awhile, but I held my restraint until a few months ago. I asked her out and she said she was glad I asked. Being that we knew each other fairly well before the date, I didn't hesitate to gently bring her toward me, while sitting side by side enjoying wine at a park picnic table, to kiss her several times. All I could say after that is "I'm stoked"!! I felt like a teenager again. After a few more kisses to wrap-up the evening (and even a foot massage) I thought we were all good. After a few days with no response from her, I met her at a party and I asked if something was wrong. She said she didn't want a boyfriend. Ok. End of story. As much as I am into her, I wasn't going to press the situation. She must have had valid reasons (but it would have been nice to know what exactly). So, on it goes to show, you have to keep pursuing your own desire, regardless of the outcome.

Let this be your mantra -- Stop hating and start mating.

Posted by: kbling at March 27, 2008 6:44 AM

Stop hating and start mating.

Posted by: kbling at March 27, 2008 6:45 AM

Stop hating and start mating.

Posted by: kbling at March 27, 2008 6:46 AM

I think vlad may have a point about the co-worker's anger at hearing the LW talk about a date. He may be angry at himself: "Crap, I had my chance, and I blew it!" I've been that guy. Lesson learned. However, in the end, I don't know that it's productive to speculate: The LW is looking for a certain kind of guy, and the co-worker evidently is not that kind of guy, and that's that.

DF and others, I will testify that Amy is an unabashed champion of men's rights and the male role in society. And she's stood up for that many times here and in her blog. I will say this one thing (look out, here it comes!): Amy, I think you're still underestimating the sexual harassment situation. The piece you are missing is that the law allows, and most HR departments encourage, third-party complaints. Suppose that Amy and I work for the same company and I ask her out. Some other woman (I'm going to pick a name at random from the frequent commenters: kg, will you act this part for a moment?) overhears it or finds out about it somehow, and decides that the idea of my asking Amy out is offensive to her. According to the law, kg can file a complaint against me even though she was not a party to the interchange. And Amy's reaction to my proposal doesn't matter: even if she thinks I'm the hottest guy on the planet, it doesn't matter as long as kg says she is offended.

This isn't a theoretical either. I have in fact been subject to company punishment based on just such a third-party complaint. (And to make it worse, the complaintant was eavesdropping on a private conversation through a locked door.) What I learned from that experience:

1. Accusation is proof. The person accused is not permitted to present a defense.

2. There is no expectation of privacy at the office, anywhere, for any reason. Anybody can spy on you. (When I asked how managers were supposed to have salary review sessions in their offices, that just got me in more trouble.)

3. Asking a female co-worker to go to lunch is harassment.

4. However, if you're going to lunch, and a female co-worker asks to go with you, and you say no, that's also harassment. (Part of the complaint against me was based on this.)

5. If your wife/girlfriend/female relative of any kind is sufficiently attractive, than having a framed photo of her on your desk is harassment.

I was a rising star in that company before that, but that incident was basically the end of my career with them. I spent three more years there, being passed over repeatedly for promotions, not consulted on areas where I had more experience than anyone else in the company, and being unable to get funding to go to training or conferences, before I finally decided I'd had enough and I went elsewhere. Fortunately, I was able to start with a clean slate at my next job, and I'm a pretty senior person in my speciality now. But if that one company had decided to turn the matter over to police, or if the employee had decided to file a suit, or any number of things that could have caused the complaint to go public, that would have been the end of my career. For real.

So even though 99% of all the women at a given company may be entirely decent, reasonable women, it only takes one bad apple to get a lot of men in a lot of trouble. And that one bad apple doesn't have to be anyone that the man actually has contact with.

Posted by: Cousin Dave at March 27, 2008 10:54 AM

I've got only one word for the girl.....NEXT.

Posted by: Brian at March 27, 2008 12:15 PM

I know Amy's a huge, huge proponent of men always making the first move -- to the point where it seems just a tad pathological. Here's my perspective: I'm happily married, and have been for 13 years -- to a man I asked out on the first date, and on whom I put the moves on that first date. Where does that fall under Amy's philosophy?

I know, I know, most men don't like aggressive women. I don't give a damn. I *am* an aggressive women. It would have done me zero good to pretend I wasn't because that's what evolution dictates -- just to end up with a man who didn't like aggressive women. If there was one man out there who loved aggressive women, that was the guy I needed to find. I found him.

It boggles my mind that a woman as straightforward as Amy can't see the value in that.

Posted by: Dana at March 27, 2008 12:44 PM

I know, I know, most men don't like aggressive women. I don't give a damn. I *am* an aggressive women. It would have done me zero good to pretend I wasn't because that's what evolution dictates -- just to end up with a man who didn't like aggressive women. If there was one man out there who loved aggressive women, that was the guy I needed to find. I found him.

I'm in complete agreement, Dana. In any case, strong men don't need to have weak women around them to feel strong, and aren't intimidated by a woman asking for what she wants. I think whether or not evolution dictates something or whether it's just the theory du jour of evolutionary psychologists and sociobiologists is too big an issue to cover here, so I won't go into it. In general I like Amy's advice and that's why I come back here each week to read it. But I'm just mystified by her insistence that men MUST act a certain way to be real men, and women MUST act a certain way because their genes dictate it, because of some overgeneralized insistence that life must have been a certain way during the Paleolithic Era.

Posted by: Quizzical1 at March 27, 2008 12:59 PM

You can choose to behave in a way that means you won't have a wide variety of choices of men. I'm a strong personality, and I have no qualms about approaching anybody about anything, really, man or woman. But, there's what you want to do impulsively and what best serves your needs.

Moreover, I've had problems over the years intimidating men, and not because I'm some screeching shrew, but because, as my friend Wally said, "You're happy, you go to Paris all the time, you do something you love, etc....what can a guy give you?"

There are exceptions, Quiz, to any "rule," but if you know what behavior seems to be the most successful and why, you can still choose to behave in another way. It's just that you should know what the consequences are likely to be.

I, for, example, slept with guys very quickly, knowing that it could cause them to bolt. I wasn't desperate for a relationship, and kind of thought any guy for me is a guy who should get over it. I spent most of my 30's alone, but I didn't think fate was mean to me, I thought I was a little slutty and a bit hard to place (due to personality/job/general happiness, the specifics of what I look for in a boyfriend, not needing a boyfriend enough to settle for less, and being tall).

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 27, 2008 1:23 PM

PS As "aggressive women" go, I'm guessing I have a lot of you topped -- just see what I do to cell phoners and other rudesters in public. Are you "aggressive" in your relationship -- like you bark orders at your boyfriend? There are those guys who are into that sort of thing.

"Aggressive woman" is, yet again, a compliment of sorts that often translates to "poor impulse control." Being strong is knowing when an application of strength is needed and not using a hammer when a safety pin will do.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 27, 2008 1:26 PM

I have read the book and is in fact quite good. But I feel that we may all be over generalizing about the man in question.

Would it be best for the man to ask her out? Probably. Is he a weak willed craven and passive aggressive asshole because he doesn't? That's up in the air.

"Apparently, his face went beet red and he got all "weird."" As others have said, it may really just be because he was pissed at himself because he thought he missed his opportunity. Shy guys like this do tend to beat themselves up for not being aggressive as they would like to be.

I say take a chance ask him for a drink. Assure him that the guy you're dating isn't serious and that you're dating around (after over hearing you about your date he will assume he has no chance unless you specifically tell him otherwise - don't beat around the bush). Make it obvious you're interested. Guys like this do not pick up on subtlety - assume he's going to miss 70% of what you're doing. If you still like him after the drink, well then great. If you don't move on.

This way you'll never think, "oh what might have been."

Posted by: flighty at March 27, 2008 1:32 PM

No, I do not bark orders at my husband, nor does he bark orders at me. But I'm straightforward and direct, I don't do any girlish shilly-shallying or hinting around or soft-peddling my opinions. If I have a problem, a reservation, an issue, a want, or a need, I come out and say so. I say it politely, but I say it directly. He never has to guess where I stand. This is perhaps his favorite quality of mine -- he calls me a "no bullshit woman." He knows there are no booby traps.

I don't pretend to be dumber than I am, nor weaker than I am. I don't defer. I'm unafraid to talk to strangers, to speak in public, to publicly declare my opinions. I've never been willing to make myself into a mirror that reflects men at twice their size, though I like many men very much, and have had a lot of good male friends over the years.

And sexually, I have always been more than willing to make the first move -- I liked it. I found it fun, I found it exciting. It was my favorite game. Of course, after being together 18 years (we dated for 2 1/2 and lived together for another 2 1/2 before we married) seduction pretty much consists of "You wanna mess around?" But I'm still perfectly willing to be the one who says it.

Clearer?

Posted by: Dana at March 27, 2008 1:57 PM

Amy - "Sorry, I'm having a hard time finding any of those examples."

Uh, hello?...In your response to the letter this thread is based on you say the man in question "needs prosthetic testicles." There are numerous other examples throughout your website but there's no point in linking to them if you can't acknowledge factual reality. That's great if you feel you're pro, or at least not anti, men and you're getting backpats from some guy's website and validation from the feminist Taliban at some womens' studies department. I don't think you're necessarily a "man-hater" but, like 99% of women, you will use our pc society and the rule of law to benefit yourselves and "womens' issues" when the urge arises.

To the point of the letter: Reread Cousin Dave's post a few times and try to be honest with yourself about how you would feel under those circumstances. That kind of environment is not the exception, it's the rule. Men's entire careers and lives hang by the thread of womens' whims - women who know how things are rigged and have no qualms at all about taking adantage of it. And Cousin Dave got out of the situation relatively lightly. However, since you are not the one taking the risk and/or absorbing the cost, it really doesn't matter to you, does it? I'd love to see you talk to the red-faced guy in the letter. "Hey, whatsamatter with you boy? You a fag? You need some fake nuts?" LOL.

I remembered another work anecdote that happened at the same place where the coworker was screwing our boss. Two of my coworkers based in different cities started dating and then got engaged. The engagement went sour and the woman tried to get the company to fire the guy for "sexual harassment". Even though her effort was ultimately unsuccessful, it was a nightmare for the guy and she, an equal partner in the relationship, paid no price whatsoever for her conduct. Amy, I'm sorry but you really don't understand what you're talking about.

Posted by: DF at March 27, 2008 2:42 PM

The risk/reward relationship for an office romance is not favorable for men. It is probably neutral at best for women.

Rule 1: Don't date co-workers. When the relationship goes sour, at least one of you will end up losing a job.

So far as having to "man up", well, there's risk there too. How much is too much? If I ask once and get a "meh", can I ask again? If I ask and get laughed at, do I have an actionable claim?

Since men tend not to be good in the "take a hint" department, all we're really asking for is a deliberate and unmistakable showing of interest on your part. There's a fine line between a casual flirt and just being a nice girl. And a lot of misunderstandings could be avoided if men could reasonably expect women to be more forthcoming.

However we cannot. Which is why I don't date. It's too much like work.

Posted by: brian at March 27, 2008 2:57 PM

"In your response to the letter this thread is based on you say the man in question "needs prosthetic testicles." Being willy nilly and wishy washy has the same risks as being direct. She can call harassment at any and all times when ever she wants. As per your claim and unfortunately reality. So in the guys case either make the damn move or forget about it, IE stop flirting and get back to work. This is very different from becoming a rude ass hole, but got or don't go. The question of nut vs no nuts is be decisive. There to much risk in dating her then stop flirting, if you think it's worth the risk (I'm assuming he does) then just do it cause you can just as easily get screwed if she's freaking nuts.

Does the system need to be changed? Yes. Do you want to be one standing in front of the proverbial tank and hope it backs down? Don't know but I sure as hell don't.

"Even though her effort was ultimately unsuccessful, it was a nightmare for the guy and she, an equal partner in the relationship, paid no price whatsoever for her conduct." You have no way of knowing that now do you. She's not going to tell you that she took a hit promotion wise on her next review.

"validation from the feminist Taliban at some womens' studies department." Oh please tell me this is a cheap attempt at sarcasm. Amy's anti special interests most womens studies department would brand her "cock serving traitor". Yes I made the mistake of taking one of their high level courses.

Posted by: vlad at March 27, 2008 5:15 PM

I met my husband at work, first we were work buddies, then best friends, after a long time lovers. I initiated each step of the way. My husband is all man, no problem there. He tells me not to hint about anything, because he doesn't get it, just come right out and say what's on my mind. Believe me it's true. He was shy, but once he got the idea he took over.

If LW really is interested, ask him out for coffee or lunch in a neutral place. Be frank and honest about your feelings. If he doesn't feel the same way, you can get on with your life.

Posted by: Ladyleo at March 27, 2008 6:55 PM

DF, go back and reread Amy's answer. She says, "he needs prosthetic testicles," not "all men everywhere need prosthetic testicles, because I am a woman and have stolen your real ones."

Ultimately, the advice is not about helping a man deal with sexual harassment in the workplace: It's about helping a woman decide to move on, and all this anger is springing from something that might not even be a factor in this situation. DF, if you disagree with the advice, that's one thing, but your blind rage toward women is making it difficult to take you seriously.

Posted by: Monica at March 28, 2008 8:35 AM

Thanks, Monica. I'm guessing DF is one of those people who goes through life identifying as a victim, which is easier than taking responsibility for one's choices.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 28, 2008 9:02 AM

Amy Says:

"Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't."

Clearly they must all be liars and you know better... I'll spread the word that you know what these men are feeling better than they do.

Amy, you and I had a discussion about these topics a while back which I am sure you remember.

I personally don't care what your personal opinion is on whether or not you prefer to be asked or to do the asking... you have a right to that opinion.

What you do not have the right to do is declare that when men say they enjoy being asked out too that they are being dishonest.

We are all the arbiters of our own feelings and frankly you have no right to universally declare that all men secretly hate being asked out... on that score you are 100% wrong... along with many other things related to the interaction of men and women.

You have a very black and white view of things... and as we should all learn as we grow up, life is filled with shades of gray.

If you cannot possibly fathom that some guy out there of the billions who exist on the planet earth can possibly enjoy being asked out... then your understanding of men is too monocular.

Men are a diverse group with many different views and perspectives... that means that while many would not enjoy being asked out... there are also many who would.

It goes hand in hand with the diversity dictated by genetics... our population isn't homogenous yet... that means there is still variability amongst men and women... it would be nice if you could acknowledge that reality.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject as I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

I personally see no harm in this lady asking the guy to grab a cup of coffee with her after work... but that's because I don't adhere to "the rules".

Posted by: Jason at March 28, 2008 1:23 PM

The following is nitpicky but it is a personal pet peeve. Your excessive use of ellipses undermines the credibility of your opinions by making each statement dissipate rather than ending in a decisive manner. It makes it seem like you are unsure of precision of your own conclusions.

Posted by: Jessica at March 28, 2008 1:42 PM

Humans have similarities in their physiology and psychology, which makes it possible for me to generalize reasonably. There are anomalies, but men have testosterone, and evolved to have certain behavior, and there's a behavior that generally works best, and it's women flirting to let me know they're interested, and then waiting for the men to ask them out; ie, show interest and the courage to do so. It's an acid test of sorts. Basically, a guy who's too big a weenie to ask you out shouldn't be rewarded with a date. This isn't about fairness, it's about weeding out the weak ones (weak candidates) from the herd.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 28, 2008 1:55 PM

I think your conclusion about this situation is either right on or completely off. This is one of those situations where she’ll never know the truth unless she takes the initiative to ask him out. I have dated the “shy nice guy” before that turned out to be a self involved woman hater and I am currently engaged to the “shy nice guy” that turned out to really just be shy and nice. He and I knew each other through mutual acquaintances for two years and it was obvious to everyone he liked me. Our friends would constantly joke about it and he would always flirt with me, but he would never ask me out. Finally one day I asked him if he wanted to go out that weekend and he said yes. It was if I had open a flood gate. All he needed was the green light from me and suddenly he was pursuing me with a vengeance.

As I said before I have also dated the guy that really was just a creep and at one point had to threaten to call the police to stop him from leaving me threatening voicemails. There is no way of really knowing unless you are willing to take the chance.

Posted by: katie at March 28, 2008 2:22 PM

"I'm guessing DF is one of those people who goes through life identifying as a victim, which is easier than taking responsibility for one's choices."

Amy, that's not a counter-argument. That's weaseling your way out with an insult. So who's playing the victim?

By the way, have you ever noticed that all of your critiques of men come down to "he's a weakling!"? Perhaps you should do a little "work" on that, eh?

You haven't addressed Cousin Dave's post at all. If you find everything I say too abhorrent to reply to, how about CD?

Posted by: DF at March 28, 2008 2:33 PM

Monica - "Ultimately, the advice is not about helping a man deal with sexual harassment in the workplace...."

Well, you're absolutely right about that. It doesn't exist as an issue for women at work, therefore - it doesn't exist. It's like someone walking on a regular sidewalk telling someone in a minefield to quit being such a whiner.

Women fail to understand the depth of the sexual harrassment/pc quagmire men have to operate in. Even worse, to the degree they do understand it, they think of it as justifiable revenge on the "cockman oppressors" that are men and, like most people, they are perfectly happy to exploit the advantages the system offers them.

Posted by: DF at March 28, 2008 2:49 PM

Still Interested: Issue a coffee invitation. If he says no, move on.

DF: You seem so personally invested in this issue that I'm starting to wonder if you might be the co-worker Still Interested wrote to Amy about.

Look, we could all go on forever trying to guess why the co-worker won't ask her out. Maybe he is afraid of falling into the "sexual/pc quagmire" you talk about, and maybe with good reason. Maybe not. Who the heck knows?

Yes, there are women who take advantage of workplace sexual harassment policy, but not ALL women. Yes, there are men who sexually harass women in the workplace, but not ALL men. Yes, there are men who have been penalized unfairly. There are also men who have never been penalized but should have been. Yes, it must be confusing for some men, but its confusing for some women too. Yes, life is not always fair.

Instead of offering advice or insight to Still Interested, and bouncing ideas around, its suddenly all about your world view.
Making offensive blanket statements that lump all women into the "bitch" basket is as unproductive and untrue as lumping all men into the "asshole" category. Its sometimes tempting to say "all men are assholes" but its an unfair generalization. Just reading most of the posts here from guys indicates its also not true.

Its also pointless to go on accusing and hounding Amy. Speaking for myself its getting boring. If her responses upset you this much stop reading them.

Posted by: loopychick at March 28, 2008 4:42 PM

Amen to that, Loopy!

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 28, 2008 9:49 PM

Hey DF, Jeff and Poo-Martin just called. You're wanted back at the clubhouse -- it's your turn in the barrel.

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 28, 2008 10:30 PM

Jessica Says:

"The following is nitpicky but it is a personal pet peeve. Your excessive use of ellipses undermines the credibility of your opinions by making each statement dissipate rather than ending in a decisive manner. It makes it seem like you are unsure of precision of your own conclusions."

First of all it is "nitpicky".

Second of all, when the only thing someone can find to criticize about what someone has to say is the nature by which it is delivered, it usually means they can find no fault in the content and as a result try to come up with other methods to discredit conclusions they have no logical grounds to attack.

If you want a decisive statement here it is:

Men are a heterogeneous group filled with members of divers backgrounds, cultural heritige, personalities and personal philosophies. As a result, to draw any far reaching generalization about what they like or do not like as a group is completely fallacious. So wrong is this methodology that to even declare that all men are sexually interested in women is incorrect.

Basically what I am saying is that for anyone to claim that "Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't." is on the same logical grounds as someone claiming "Some men will tell you they aren't physically attracted to women. They are."

You are free to claim that I misspelled something, or that I have a typo somewhere in the above explanation, or that I got too technical, but none of that will serve to invalidate the core of my contention that men are far too diverse of a group to make any such generalization about what they do or do not like.

Maybe you are inclined to explain men with simple generalizations that eliminate the fact that each man is an individual, but then you are already way off in your understanding because "men" aren't some cookie cut out of the same set of traits.

Posted by: Jason at March 28, 2008 10:42 PM

Amy Says:

"Humans have similarities in their physiology and psychology, which makes it possible for me to generalize reasonably. "

Not in this instance, and here is the reason why. You didn't merely claim that most men don't like to be asked out, you claimed that men who say they liked being asked out are liars.

There is a huge difference between asserting that men in general have a certain perspective and asserting that people who say they feel a certain way don't actually feel that way.

If you had merely said "most men don't enjoy being asked out" I would not have any issue with that statement, I do however have a serious issue with your actual statement:

"Some men will tell you they love being asked out. They don't."

Because the odds are that the ones who tell you they love being asked out probably are telling the truth, exactly what reason do they have to lie in that scenario?

They could just as easily say they don't like being asked out and prefer to do the asking, it's not like they would be criticized for taking such a stance.

Surely you can see the distinction I am making here. You aren't merely generalizing about men, you are invalidating the statements of "some men" based upon the opinion of the majority.

That is as nonsensicle as saying that "some women will tell you they love chocolate covered insects. They don't."... and then saying that the statement was alright because you were just generalizing.

Clearly however that isn't what occurs in that argument, instead what occurs is you use the generalization to invalidate the opinions of the minority. However such a statement is not logically warrented.

Posted by: Jason at March 28, 2008 10:54 PM

Oh dear, its catching. Jason says, "Not in this instance..... " So bored (sigh) z z z
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Posted by: loopychick at March 29, 2008 5:39 AM

So, how 'bout those Cowboys?

Posted by: Monica at March 29, 2008 9:13 AM

excessive use of ellipses that'll be ellipsis, then (unless maybe it's the plural of ellipsis ... oh god I think I'll just kill myself by leaving these parentheses open

and no full stop

Posted by: Norman at March 29, 2008 1:24 PM

There is a difference between being a strong woman and emasculating a man, and the perceptive female knows the difference. I have no interest in a man being my dependent, being a man's mommy and taking care of him, or proving how strong and independent I am in my dating relationships. I can do all of that in every other aspect of my life, so what's wrong with backing off and letting all that testosterone do what it wants? It's just for fun anyways, and I enjoy getting to relax and feeling all girly and letting my big strong man take care of me (primarily sexually and in certain social situations).

I'm going to have to agree with Amy, men aren't really in touch with their own feelings so they may thing they like being pursued, but then, something just doesn't feel right for them and they lose interest in the female that is pursuing them, and they start to find the Bambi female much more appealing. Men like to chase and if the ball stops moving and turns around and chases them, it weirds them out.

Posted by: Chrissy at March 29, 2008 2:32 PM

Egad, people, we've just lost Norman to the Punctuation Police! Where will all this madness end??

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 29, 2008 6:57 PM

This is my first time reading this article, but I will attempt to address much of what I have read. Feel free to rip apart any grammar errors.

Still Interested: The guy may be angry at himself for not speaking up sooner and did not say goodbye because it would hurt too much to face what he had lost. He may honestly have not known you were interested. A male friend of mine is always asking me for advice on women because he never knows when a woman is flirting with him. Sometimes I want to hit him up side the head and scream, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? She was really into you." And he wonders why he is still alone. Admittedly he is a nice guy, but he is dense when it comes to women. SOME men are that way. However, from reading I believe the guy is probably afraid of a sexual harassment complaint. After all, he is not too shy to flirt at work. As far as Still Interested asking him out. I have yet to get up the courage to ask a guy out, even if I am positive he is interested and I am not timid by any stretch of the imagination. I am afraid he will think that means "all bets are off because only a woman who is "out there" will do something like that." I heard a guy say that about a woman a long time ago and it stuck with me.

Feminazis: For many years people have been mixed up about feminism. Feminism was about women having right to make certain choices and enjoy privileges they were denied. For instance, one lady I talked to who was big in the feminist movement was not even able to open up a bank account without her husband's signature even though she was working and earning her own money. Yet when her husband passed away she was not allowed access to either account . In another instance, a woman had to have a male relative purchase a house for her because the sellers refused to see to a woman and the bank refused to give her a loan without a male's signature. Femanazis became an issue because of the misunderstanding of what the feminist movement really meant.

Men do not want women to ask them out: Presently there is a guy who is showing me interest who is a bit submissive. He likes it when a woman takes the lead. Although I am a strong woman, I am not a very aggressive woman. This guy (lets call him J) is very sweet and generous and I like him very much. He is a well known doctor and has no problem being aggressive at work but that part of him is never seen outside of work. I in no way see him as a weak man. He likes for me to make all of the choices, when we go, where we go, and even the major decisions. He is a leader in his professional life but he is definitely a follower in his personal life. Some men do like for women to take the initiative.

Sexual Harassment in the work place: I have not had experience with sexual harassment in my civilian life but when I was in the military it came up a lot. It was like a contest as to who could file the most sexual harassment cases, men or women. If a woman file a case one week, a man would file one the next week. Some of the cases were pitiful. One guy filed a case because a woman called him sweetheart (she called everybody sweetheart, even the captain). Apparently his buddy was in trouble for inappropriate touching. Some men are not afraid to file a sexual harassment complaint.

A European male friend of mine once said that the men in the US are so far behind them it is sad. He said that the men in this country are too hung up on the macho thing. In other words, if you want change then be a vehicle for change. Stop being afraid you will be called a sissy or fag if you file a sexual harassment complaint. The very first feminist were called a lot of things but they went forward anyway. They suffered a lot more than a man would suffer today. File the case (only if it is legit), take the hard knocks and move forward. Don't be afraid to stand in the gap. If you want change, make change happen. (hint hint DF)

DF I have no idea who did a number on you. WOW. Good thing you are letting it out before it festers.

Well, thats my spill. Take it or leave it - your right, your choice.

Posted by: Marie at March 29, 2008 9:48 PM

I'll take it, thanks. Well said. There IS a great amount of variation in men's preferences and behavior patterns, no doubt about it. As for the ones who think they like being asked out but then lose interest quickly, they're just immature -- and who wants an immature guy anyway?

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 29, 2008 10:28 PM

P.S. This doesn't mean I advocate pursuing, not at all. But in this case I don't think a casual invite for coffee, just to break the ice, could do any harm. If that scares him off, then LW might as well give up on him -- that dog don't hunt.

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 29, 2008 10:36 PM

I think this lady should just move on. If he's interested, and I doubt he is, he's pissed off at her for 'cheating' on him with another guy and Still Interested has been stringing him along (yeah, I know they haven't gone out on date #1...) or Still Interested is imagining Male Co-worker's friendliness is interest in her. Either way, lady, move on. Concentrate on the job, you're there to work, not flirt.

And on another note to the bitter jerks who whine about who the wicked, wicked bitches that screw men over...puh-lease!

You guys are the same dips who actually think the barrista at the coffee bar, the waitress at Hooter's, and the burger flipper at Mc Donald's is into you because she smiles and says 'have a nice day'. FYI--she's not. She's required to do both by some corporate overseer. She's a woman trying to do a job and make a living and the last thing she wants/needs is some jerk staring down her shirt, causing an interruption while trying to make time....unlike Still Interested who seems to think her workplace is a social club. Most women are at work to do a job. Period.

Posted by: A Jezebel at March 29, 2008 11:32 PM

Or it could be that he's gay and in the closet, which would explain a lot of things. At any rate, she'll never find out unless she makes a move -- either that or fuggedabaddit.

Speaking of being at work to do a job, period, I've noticed a few posts in the past from people saying they were at work while writing -- now that's just wrong!

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 30, 2008 7:18 AM

z z
z z z
z
z (snarf)
huh? what?....hey, things got more interesting! Holy cow, is it Sunday already?

Um, Marie, where EXACTLY in Europe are you talking about? And what should I be packing for this time of year?

Posted by: loopychick at March 30, 2008 9:35 AM

I will start off by addressing two issues.

The first is that I think Loopychick did a great job of demonstrating why I used ellipses in the first place. There is a sizable subset of internet goers who simply do not have the attention span to read a fully developed thought. They simply pass out the moment anything resembling an academically rigorous argument is presented which goes against something they want to believe.

As a result I've taken the route of "knowing my audience" and since many people on the internet have an increadibly short attention span, I try at times to get to the punchline quickly... which means presenting abbreviated thoughts through the use of ellipses.

Second issue:

Chrissy Says:

"I'm going to have to agree with Amy, men aren't really in touch with their own feelings so they may thing they like being pursued, but then, something just doesn't feel right for them and they lose interest in the female that is pursuing them, and they start to find the Bambi female much more appealing. Men like to chase and if the ball stops moving and turns around and chases them, it weirds them out."

Listen Chrissy, you are going to have to give men a little more credit than that.

Certainly *some* men are out of touch with their own feelings and don't know what they really want... but the same can be said for *some* women.

Here's the deal so far as I see it, and I believe that many other men can corroborate my position.

If I am interested in a woman, I could care less whether I ask her out first or if she makes the first move... I don't care one way or the other because if I like her, I just want to be around her however that happens to occur.

All you are doing here is trying to justify your own personal preference to be asked out by saying "men don't *really* want me to ask them out... so I am doing them a favor!!!"

You don't need to justify your position, if you like being asked out that is great for you... but it should also enable you to comprehend why someone else might enjoy being asked out as well.

Men come in all shapes, sizes, personalities... some of those combinations invariably include the type of guy who really doesn't care if a woman takes the initiative on occasion.

Go back and read the story in this thread about the married couple where the woman asked the guy out on the first date... if that guy *really* only wanted to be with women who he could pursue 100% of the time, then explain to me why they are involves in a very long term and committed relationship?

Based on your theory he should have been long gone and after bambi long before proposing marriage.

Generalizing about men in this fashion is as bad as generalizing about women... just as women are a diverse group with many different wants and needs, so too are men complex emotional creatures, far more complex than you are giving us credit.

Posted by: Jason at March 30, 2008 1:05 PM

My friend took me to the dealership to get her Yaris fixed, I talked to the main guy there my usual car talk and got her an employee discount (simply because I'm chatty, friendly and I know things). Amy could make an accurate statement to say that most women do not know anything about cars and then I could come on here and write a big long paragraph about how it doesnt apply to me. Well that's nice but the rule still applies. Most women dont know anything about cars.

Most women like to be asked out. I like to be asked out and treated like a woman. I'm independent in many other areas, I work in a male-dominated field. But if you dont ask me out you dont get nothing period. I would have no problem asking men out except I dont like it and they dont like it because of our monkey brains. Yes there are women who have asked men out and gotten results but honestly why the hell would i want to be with a man I had to chase down? I'd be resentful of the fact.

Posted by: PurplePen at March 30, 2008 3:01 PM

Easy there, Jason. I've read every word. If you read my post from Friday you'll notice that we seem to be pretty much in agreement on the generalizing.

I agree completely with your initial post in which you presented your argument in a clear and comprehensive fashion...ellipses included. In fact it was so clear that I don't understand why you make the same points again (and again) particularly after "Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject as I have no desire to get into an argument with you." To me the repetition makes it sound like you're ranting...which was exactly what I found boring about DF.

Posted by: loopychick at March 30, 2008 3:08 PM

Perfectly put, Purple Pen.

Posted by: Amy at March 30, 2008 3:09 PM

Thanks Amy. I just feel I have to answer some of Jasons points.

"If I am interested in a woman, I could care less whether I ask her out first or if she makes the first move... I don't care one way or the other because if I like her, I just want to be around her however that happens to occur."

Most men who have trouble asking women out complain about why it is that men have to do the asking. They care very much who makes the first move. The LW was one of those men, anxious, embarassed, self-conscious. These are signs for a woman not to get involved with the man. A valuable man has no problem asking out valuable women.

"Go back and read the story in this thread about the married couple where the woman asked the guy out on the first date... if that guy *really* only wanted to be with women who he could pursue 100% of the time, then explain to me why they are involves in a very long term and committed relationship?"

This is an exception to the rule, and you are taking it as THE rule. I'm very happy for their marriage but the truth is they got lucky. I have no problem getting dates because I'm a young, fertile female and by evolutionary standards very valuable. Therefore I have no need to ask men out, men realize this and this makes me even more valuable.

I also work with men and realize their nature. A man who is too anxious to make the moves on a woman wont make a suitable partner 99% of the time. He will not be respected by his male peers. Women will not get involved with a man who is not respected by other men, they will shun these men with good reason. (Notice gay guys are popular with women because their popularity rests with other gay MEN).

Posted by: PurplePen at March 30, 2008 3:59 PM

Loopychick Says:

"I agree completely with your initial post in which you presented your argument in a clear and comprehensive fashion...ellipses included."

Thank you.

The problem I encounter when trying to converse with people on the internet is the following:

You can please some people all of the time, all of the people some of the time... but never all of the people all of the time.

What I basically felt like was happening was that I got criticized for using very abrupt thoughts that got the point across quickly.

Then when I went to address the criticism by offering a more thought out post complete with full sentences... then I got criticized for being too wordy.

It felt like the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

I personally would just love it if I could merely express my views without having to then be put on the spot to defend how I chose to express them.

If someone has a problem with my view point then I welcome all manner of debate... but when all they can attack is sentence structure, then I've got a problem with it.

What you view as a "rant" was merely my attempt to appease both sides (i.e. those who like short and sweet... and those who prefer more academic construction).

You'll probably notice that many people here (note not all) are very used to making arguments that involve drawing conclusions about the nature of the poster as opposed to the content they bring to the table.

Frankly the only thing that matters is the position.

If you happen to agree with some or all of what I've said then that is great... if not that is also okay. I just don't need to be told that the problem is that I had too many ellipses... too few ellipses... my words were too big... they weren't technical enough... etc...

Examining that kind of minutia is pointless in my opinion.

Posted by: Jason at March 30, 2008 4:48 PM

Sorry to get off track here.

Loopychick: I was in the Navy and on a ship so I was able to see
quite a bit of Europe, mostly Italy. As far as I could see, their weather was just like ours ... but then I guess that would depend on where you are. they had regular seasons. In the spring and fall it tended to rain a lot. One fall it rained so much it cause mudslides. I remember going to bed one night to the soft sound of rain and waking up to cars literally floating through the parking lot.

If you make it to La maddalena ( a little Island in Sardengia) please stop by Angelos and get a sandwich on focaccia. It will change your life. I have been back in the states for 10 years and have not been able to develop a like for sandwiches here. I use to survive on them before. And if you go to Naples, stay away from the port unless in a group (bad element there). Do not go shopping in the little side shops without a friend. Talk to them while you are in the dressing room. We were told people had actually came up missing while trying on clothes. However, do go to the little restaurant across the street from the Navy Base. Try the sandwich with the thin slice of ham and the zucchini or the ham and spinach. It sounds horrible but tastes great.

Visit the little islands. They are awesome. Ana Capri has a cave that is half underwater. The waters are blue and they illuminate the cave. You have to go in in a small row-boat and duck your head while going through the entrance but it is worth it.

The italian men (for the most part) are very flirtatious and they do not care if you (or they) are married. Italians also have no sense of personal space so don't get offended if they get really close.

Some things may have changed since I left. Oh yeah, coffee shops/bars are the popular hangouts. Almost everybody smokes (at least back then). Caribinaris are fun to hang out with. Don't expect a big breakfast. Look for the white sands beaches. Enjoy your trip!!!

Once again, sorry for getting off the subject.

Posted by: Marie at March 30, 2008 4:56 PM

PurplePen Says:

"Most men who have trouble asking women out complain about why it is that men have to do the asking. They care very much who makes the first move."

To be quite honest, the only ones here who seem obsesed about who makes the first move are the women.

I for one don't care who makes the first move so long as the first move gets made... if I am the first one to do the asking then great, but if I am interested in a woman I guarantee that if she asks me out i'm not going to suddenly think she is a waste of time.

Men don't generally change their opinion that rapidly based upon such frivilous things. Anyone who thinks they do are essentially saying that men in general are flaky... and in general we aren't.

Some men will complain why men have to do the asking for the same reason that women 50 years ago complained why women have to do the cleaning. All it boils down to is that eventually, some people just get tired of having to shoulder a responsibility that they think can be shared from time to time.

I'm not saying that men should stop asking women out, that would be crazy... but at the same time I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she really likes a guy. The worst thing that can happen is he will say no... which is the worst that can happen if a guy asks a woman out. Getting rejected is just a part of dating, is it easy?... nope... but it also isn't nearly as bad as one might think.

I've been rejected before and I've done the rejecting before... I've been accepted and done the accepting before... it's all part of dating and as I said before, I personally don't care who makes the first move.

Please take a look at the thread Purplepen... the group who seems focused on who makes the first move really isn't the men here... you are projecting this motivation onto the wrong gender in my opinion.

"This is an exception to the rule, and you are taking it as THE rule. I'm very happy for their marriage but the truth is they got lucky. I have no problem getting dates because I'm a young, fertile female and by evolutionary standards very valuable. Therefore I have no need to ask men out, men realize this and this makes me even more valuable. "

It really isn't an exception to the rule though... you are taking a small majority and expressing it as "the rule"... but even if 60% of men fall into the category of never ever wanting a woman to ask them out, then the other 40% can't suddenly be ignored.

Furthermore, I understand where you are coming from with relation to being a young, fertile female and as a result are evolutionary very valuable.

Here is the problem... how certain are you that the lady who wrote the initial letter is in the same position?... for all we know she is not very good looking, possibly past her prime... etc...

Let's say she is in that situation... would it then be okay for her to ask this guy out?

Are you essentially saying that only old or ugly women should ask men out and all pretty fertile women should wait to be asked?

Here is something you should consider though... there are lots of evolutionarily valuable men out there who don't need to be asked out either... so how do you propose getting one of them?... or you've decided that if they are so valuable that they don't need to ask you out, then they are out of your league?

Here is the truth... there are men and women out there who just don't need to ask anyone out and will still have members of the opposite gender fawning over them.

I still see absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, man or woman, deciding that someone is interesting enough to them to essentially say "screw it... if they aren't going to ask me out... I'm asking them."

If you are not able to make that decision then maybe you just haven't met anyone who really interests you enough to throw caution to the wind and give it a shot... that is fine, but if you ever do run into a guy who just seems amazing to you, but for whatever reason isn't asking you out... I wouldn't just write it off as a lost cause.

If they are really that amazing, they are probably worth the effort of saying "Hey, want to get a cup of coffee?"

Posted by: Jason at March 30, 2008 5:13 PM

Alvin Toffler wrote about Future Shock. American women today are suffering from a major case of future shock. They have no idea at all what large numbers of men really think of them today. As long as they get laid from time to time, all is well, and some day my prince will come. And, when he doesn't, men are all worthless.

And, if any man dares to tell them the truth, they engage in what is called shaming language. One can almost lip sync a woman when she discovers men like DF, who are legion today.

Who pissed in your coffee? You are so bitter and angry, because you can't get laid. Your penis (testicles) are so small. You must hate your mother. You are gay. You hate all women. Etc. Etc.

Shaming language worked for a long time. More and more men are learning to laugh at it. I imagine DF really doesn't care much what you say to him.

More interest is developing in foreign women. Last summer, I visited a small rural Midwest city, to visit a Mexican woman I know who is married to an Anglo. We went out to the local Wal-mart around 9 pm, and virtually every man in that store was with a dark-haired women, clearly an import. I was shocked! I had no idea that many men in that community had married FW's.

Some might say I am guessing. No, a person can tell a foreign woman from non-English speaking nations, fifty feet away, from an American woman by the look on their faces. The AW looks bitter, sour, and angry. I tell men this, and when they return to the States, they admit it is true.

I tell men that the most ignorant African slave knew if he/she could, to go to Canada. I ask them so what is their problem, why are they staying in a nation where they have as few rights as slaves did, where they are hated as much as slaves were, where any accusation can result in years in prison with no real evidence. (The Duke hoax and the female response demonstrated what life is like for men who don't have millions of dollars to fight in court.)

To disillusion your usual shaming language, I have been married to a FW for decades, and am a good parent and grandpa. Feel free to waste ammunition, though.

Also, as Amy can tell you from IP reports, I am not in the US. And when I do need to return for family needs, feel much like a Viet Nam War soldier who is flown out to the jungle, and told the chopper will not get back for a week.

It's not just the women in the US. I told my youngest son recently it was pretty bad when a person is relieved to cross the border into Mexico, because the cops there are much less dangerous.

Posted by: irlandes at March 30, 2008 7:54 PM

Wow. I'm not touching that last post.

No, I'm here to talk to Jason. Jason, your posts are very well thought out and clearly written, ellipses and all. Don't be intimidated into rephrasing them just to satisfy some pedant who is more interested in the form than the content.

The contributors to this site are highly intelligent and well-educated, but occasionally one of them will go overboard. I've probably done it myself -- just pay no mind.

These days we are constantly being bombarded by grievous errors in spelling, punctuation and grammar -- ellipses are the least of our problems.

Posted by: Pussnboots at March 30, 2008 10:13 PM

I just came home from the bar so bear with me here Jason, but I'd still like to answer your points.

"To be quite honest, the only ones here who seem obsesed about who makes the first move are the women."

And that's exactly who heterosexual men are trying to date. I dont like having to ask a man out, and neither does any woman I know. It would make me resent a man if I had to be the "man" in the equation.

"I for one don't care who makes the first move so long as the first move gets made..."

Bravo Jason! I can fix your Camry if it ever gets broken but I doubt any other woman can. You and I arent the natural rules for our respective sexes.

"Men don't generally change their opinion that rapidly based upon such frivilous things"

No they follow set rules. Men are easy, they like sex. They like a relationship with a woman who isnt "easy". I had sex with my past boyfriend one hour after I met him, and we lasted several months, he's still a sweetheart in my eyes. Now giving advice to all the women out there who want boyfriends that it's ok if they sleep with a guy one hour after they meet him wont be very productive for their romantic lives will it? It worked for me but like I said I can fix your Camry.

"all we know she is not very good looking, possibly past her prime... etc...Let's say she is in that situation... would it then be okay for her to ask this guy out?"

The ugly troll asks the man out and doesnt appear to be desperate. Great scenario.

"there are lots of evolutionarily valuable men out there who don't need to be asked out either... so how do you propose getting one of them?... or you've decided that if they are so valuable that they don't need to ask you out, then they are out of your league?"

I'm not looking for George Clooney, he doesnt need pussy, pussy comes to him. Do you think George Clooney would have a problem asking a woman out like the LW? That aura, energy, $$$, George Clooney has makes the pussy come to him BUT I doubt he'd go out with any beautiful girl that comes up to him and