Cruel And Crullers
In high school and college I was really overweight. I started losing weight and found a great guy online. During the year we talked, I went from size 18 to size 12, losing 80 pounds. When we met, I was a little overweight, but in my best shape ever, and we were really attracted to each other. We're now married, but stressed, as I'm the only one working until he completes the immigration process (he's South African). In seven months, I've gained 50 pounds. My problem is that he's insanely direct. If something's on his mind, he'll say it. He's now having a hard time being attracted to me. I do understand, and have committed to losing weight, and plan to have surgery next year to remove the extra skin. I'm excited because I know he'll be all over me, but I'm also scared I'll be resentful.
--Shrinking
For a man, it's the size of a woman's heart that counts -- until her thighs approach the size of small Volkswagens.
Now, some men do go for a woman with extra padding -- not just "junk in the trunk," but junk bungee'd to the roof and hood, and crammed from floormats to ceiling in the front and back seats. Actually, there are about five men who go for this. On the bright side, the average guy isn't into haute couture thin: those slivers in stilettos who look like they subsist on cigarettes and the occasional French fry when they need enough energy to make it down the catwalk without fainting into Anna Wintour's lap.
Still, feminists see a cruel plot against women who eat. According to Naomi Wolf, author of The Beauty Myth, there's a patriarchal conspiracy to keep women dieting so they'll be too weak and hungry to compete with men. Right. Here in the real world, it isn't some brainwashed dim bulb who doesn't let herself bulk out, but a wise woman, assuming she's on the prowl for heterosexual men who aren't, say, Tanzanian hunter-gatherers. Male sexuality is hard-wired to be looks-driven, and research suggests that the body size men look for in a woman corresponds with the availability of food. Where eats are scarce, like in the Sahara, Lane Bryant ladies are in. Where there's food-a-plenty, men go for slimmer women. And yes, that describes our culture, where, if you're foraging for dinner, you're probably not scraping for grubs with a stick, just reaching deep into the cooler at 7-Eleven.
At a certain point, "more of you to love" becomes way too much for your husband to get around. He can't help feeling this way, but because his first thought is something like "Yeah, you're big-boned -- like a brontosaurus" doesn't mean he should release it into the atmosphere. People get way too much credit for being "direct." Sometimes what passes for honesty is really just poor impulse control. Your husband needs to take that 10 extra seconds to break things to you in a way that doesn't slap you upside the ego. As for your own impulse control issues, a fork is not a stress reduction tool. And dieting might take off the pounds, but it won't solve the real problem: getting it into your head that the only hunger pangs food relieves are those you feel in your stomach. For guidance, pick up Diets Don't Work, by Bob Schwartz. Whatever you do, avoid reading Naomi Wolf, who suggests that, until women can shovel down just as many donuts as men do, they "cannot experience equal status in the community."
I think it's time she become just as DIRECT and tell him to GET A JOB! She's working to support him and he shows his gratitude by cracking the whip and telling her to lose weight?!! Kick his ass to the curb NOW and see how fast she loses the weight again without having the stress of living up to his standards! What a LOSER!!
Jan at April 9, 2008 3:22 AM
I agree completely with the previous poster. He's got a lot more to "lose" than she does. He's not worth her precious time or energy - not to mention what this stress is doing to her health. Nope. That jerk needs to hit the road.
Chris at April 9, 2008 3:35 AM
Deport the fool.
Roseanne at April 9, 2008 4:20 AM
My mom, whom I love dearly but occasionally want to strangle, makes hurtful comments. One that sticks out: "When such-and-such saw you last week they said you looked like you'd gained 30 pounds." At the bottom of it my mother's a wonderful person. The fact that her mouth gets going before her brain kicks in is outweighed, for me, by all her other great qualities, means that the relationship is still worth maintaining. I'm trying to get her to think, before making a personal comment, "Is it true, does it help, and will it hurt someone's feelings?" According to the Buddhists, if I'm not mistaken, the answers should be, "Yes, yes and no." Any other combination: shut up.
I'm no expert on this but doesn't it say, "for better or worse" in the marriage vows? And mere months after the marriage, now that you're providing for him, and I'm guessing helping him move to your country, now that this has not surprisingly added stress to your life, and you've gained some weight back, he's making comments and is no longer attracted to you? Nothing in your letter suggests he has other great qualities, as per my mother, that would make this relationship worth maintaining. The fact that he'll be "all over you" once you lose weight again, doesn't make him worth your time.
As a test you can try the Buddhist line with him, see what he says. If he's not down with the hurting your feelings part he's gotta go.
So, I have two thoughts on this:
1. He's a garden-variety jerk. Dump his ass now before your lives being irrevocably entangled. Find someone who doesn't stress you out and loves you at the size you are.
2. He's a manipulative citizenship seeking jerk, sees you as his route to to that, and may already be building himself a get-a-divorce plan. See part 1 for instructions.
3. And once his nasty ass is out of your life use some of your hard-earned $$ for a reliable personal trainer.
loopychick at April 9, 2008 4:32 AM
Article in today's Times: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3706937.ece
Looks aren't everything? Don't kid yourself.
“Looks,” as the novelist Fay Weldon says briskly, “are still the most important thing for women.” This from Fay, who was brought up in New Zealand with one wonky mirror on the veranda and a mother who never told her that she was goodlooking, although she was, and is.
It's a long way from today's teens who, perpetually photographing their own gestures and grimaces on their mobile phones, make Narcissus look like a slob with image issues, or the thousands of eight-year-olds logging on to to missbimbo.com to order virtual pills and discuss boob jobs.
“Nowadays,” offers Weldon, “all little girls are told that they're beautiful by their mothers, even when they're not. We're terribly conflicted. We don't want appearance to be important, but almost everything we do reinforces that they are. Awful? Yes, if you think that there's such a thing as justice or people being born equal.
continues ...
Norman at April 9, 2008 5:43 AM
All of you who suggest she dump and/or deport this man ask yourselves this question:
If you were dating or married to a man who had always been in decent condition, and he (for whatever reason) gained fifty pounds would you:
a) accept it as he'd lying on top of you and you're suffocating
b) tell him that you're concerned for his health, or some other "nice" way to say "hey fatso, lose the weight" -- or just come right out and say "you're fat"
c) say "You're not the man I fell in love with" and leave him.
If you said "c", you're a typical American bitch. If you said "a", you're a typical American doormat.
Either way, the world needs fewer of you.
brian at April 9, 2008 5:57 AM
Seems to me there's a lot more going on in this LW's life than losing weight. There's a new marriage, to a foreigner (not a bad thing, but there will be cultural differences to discover and defuse), an immigration process. She's concerned she might resent him, not that any of the 1001 other things in their relationship might go wrong. Losing weight is hard, so that's going to add to the effort.
If you lose weight for him, that does sound like a recipe for resentment. You have to do it for yourself, because you want to change the person you are. I don't think you can succeed otherwise; it's a lifestyle change, not a temporary diet, that's needed.
His directness is a strength but strength is not always appropriate - think bull in china shop. Still it's probably better direct than telling lies or being unaware of oneself and unable to communicate.
So if he has a problem with your size, and has said so, and together you will work on it and deal with it - then welcome to married life. If you want to stay together, you have to face up to these issues together. Keep communication channels open, be honest and considerate. I can't see any reason you should not be able to make it work.
Norman at April 9, 2008 5:57 AM
As a longtime admirer of full figured women, I have female friends who have walked in the writers shoes...down the aisle and beyond with immigrant men. She's setting herself up for heartbreak, especially expecting a guy who will treat her like that to be wonderful to her when the yo-yo diet cooperates. Most people who diet do regain most of the weight, so it's more likely that she'll need to be ok with always being "a little overweight" or heavier. It's a shame that more of us guys don't realize the true attractiveness of intelligent, together, accomplished women who happen to be heavy. There are more than 5 of us out there, and I hope the writer will send her worldly man packing and find one of us that appreciates her.
Jon at April 9, 2008 6:13 AM
c) say "You're not the man I fell in love with" and leave him.
So, Brian, if a man says this to a woman because she's gained weight, let's say, bearing his children, and she has a hard time getting back to her pre-baby weight, does that make him a typical American bastard? o_O
Flynne at April 9, 2008 6:21 AM
The direct thing is a cultural issue. Every culture has them, Russins have two that tend to get to gingos. Justiculating, constantly while we talk for which I was constantly made fun of before college. Talking so close that if you stick your tongue out you could actually touch the person.
Now the fact that her weight bothers him is more the issue than how he expresses it. Having been a pudgy kid I can say that all of the women I met saw me as a friend until I lost 60 lbs. Then I get all sorts of interactions, the casual brush on the T the glance the smile so no pity there for her. However if he's not working and sitting on his ass all day he does bare some of the responsibility for the situation. In his shoes I'd do the following: Keep my mouth shut until I'm making at least as much as she is or close to it. Then bring it up in a nonconfrontationl manner (Brian choice 2) and see how it plays out. This is all assuming that I'm in at least reasonable shape. If I'm a fat ass asking her to lose weight is being an ass.
If I get a "we are married an you should deal" I'm out as soon as INS lets me leave without a free ride back home. I would leave her with a smile and a nice fat check. Flame me all you want but something I see a lot in the ethnic community is once the women get married and she has a kid something Russians call the "Babooshka Bomb" goes off. Temporay weight gain or weight gain for medical reasons is one thing but just letting yourself go because you got me roped in I resent and do so proudly, for either gender.
vlad at April 9, 2008 6:31 AM
"I can't see any reason you should not be able to make it work." INS (don't remember the new name) will toss him out of the country as i assume he's in the US on a Guest or finance visa. You can not work on either of these and is he does and gets caught not only will he be deported but him and his employer will get fined by both INS and IRS.
vlad at April 9, 2008 6:33 AM
Flynne - that depends upon a few things.
First, he has to put as much effort into maintaining himself as he expects her to. If he's not, well, he's on the Asshole Express.
Second, if she's making an effort to lose the baby weight, he should shut his pie-hole.
But if she's saying "I bore your children, you'll tolerate my enhanced girth", well, she'll just have to get used to not getting any.
Which leads back to my premise that relationships are too much like work.
brian at April 9, 2008 6:41 AM
"So, Brian, if a man says this to a woman because she's gained weight, let's say, bearing his children, and she has a hard time getting back to her pre-baby weight, does that make him a typical American bastard?" Are we talking about within 10 lbs or within 50lbs? A few lbs heavier is one thing but unless it's medical 30 plus lbs is not baby weight. I am hard pressed to think of anyone who was initially in shape and couldn't get back there unless they stopped trying.
vlad at April 9, 2008 6:41 AM
A few points: A guy from another country who marries an American can't get a job until he gets his papers. THAT could get him deported.
Those who say the problem is because he's an immigrant are making assumptions. Most men have a problem with obese women -- a woman's looks are very important to a man. Essential, even. I cover this in a reply column I wrote about this. To one of numerous angry letters I got from women saying he should love her for what's inside. And sure, but he won't lust after her, which is what he's letting her know.
Brian, if a guy gained 50 pounds, the woman might still be fine with him. If he loses his job and lies around on the couch all day, another story. Men and women prioritize different things.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 6:43 AM
To me the question is why she hasn't returned (at least close) to her per baby weight. If it cause she can't or cause she'd rather chow down than still attract me. If she can't and it bother her we can work on it together, gym running in the morning etc. If she just choses not to that means she could care less about my feelings and I will resent that. Again assuming I have lost that sympathy weight I gained.
vlad at April 9, 2008 6:49 AM
It's entirely probable that the fellow can't yet legally work. I really think that's a red herring.
With regard to the OP, this is another case of a rational double standard. Time and again, research shows that women put less emphasis on male attractiveness in long-term relationships. For men, attractiveness is a necessity. This holds true even after a woman has born children.
As an important qualification, women who think of themselves as attractive, place a higher value on looks, especially elements of physical masculinity.
Once again, we have a rational double standard between the sexes.
Jeff at April 9, 2008 6:51 AM
Thanks, Jeff, for batting clean-up. Exactly right.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 6:58 AM
Also figure tends to be a sign of wealth but has changed over time and all cultures have it. In china having a long pinky nail implies wealth cause you don't have to work the fields. In sub-Saharan Africa being fat implies wealth because you have food enough to do it. In the US having extra resources to work on looking good (gym, make-up, beauty treatment) means a certain status level, or enough determination to do it.
vlad at April 9, 2008 7:46 AM
From here on out I will be known as Marie E. I had no idea there was already a Marie (in Locarno).
"We're now married, but stressed, as I'm the only one working until he completes the immigration process (he's South African)." - LW
I am not a betting woman but if I was, I would bet every dime in the bank that this is not about the weight.
One rule I have with men who are not citizens. We can only be acquaintances until you get citizenship. If you are not looking for citizenship, then we can only be acquaintances because I am not that trusting. As soon as he gets citizenship, he will be out of there like yesterday.
According to some of my South African female friends, gender violence is big in South Africa because the men their have no respect for women. South African men blame women for everything that goes wrong in their lives. South Africa has a high incident of rape and violence (murder) against women. She said that rape of children (babies really) as a cure for AIDS use to be a common thing in South Africa. Having only been to the coast of Africa near Gilbraltar and Spain and never having actually been in South Africa, I have no idea if this is true. However, My friends are from there and I think they would know.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 8:26 AM
"As soon as he gets citizenship, he will be out of there like yesterday." I'm not so sure. If he was interested only in citizenship he'd probably have kept his mouth shut and smiled. The main reason to try and change the person your with is so that you will get comfortable and stay with them. If your planning on leaving after citizenship why would you rock the boat. Controlling someone in that way if your planning on leaving is wasted effort, this guy may or may not be an asshole but since he's here he can't be too stupid.
vlad at April 9, 2008 8:35 AM
Well, my weight and appearance will always be ten times more important to me than they could possibly be to any man. The minute that little pudge of cottage cheese around my belly button starts to make an appearance, look out - nobody else better be wanting to use the elliptical machine for a while. Why should some guy have to tell me if I'm getting fat? Look in the mirror and do something about it. It's not his responsibility to take care of me.
Not to mention, those strong legs might come in handy if, say, I had some jerk foreigner husband who was just trying to use me for his immigration papers and needed a hard kick in the ass.
Pirate Jo at April 9, 2008 8:47 AM
Brian~ When a man starts DICTATING or CRITICIZING me while while I'm the one supporting him, you'd better BELIEVE I'm a BITCH!!! ARCH BITCH to you!!
Jan at April 9, 2008 8:49 AM
All of you who suggest she dump and/or deport this man ask yourselves this question:
"If you were dating or married to a man who had always been in decent condition, and he (for whatever reason) gained fifty pounds would you:
a) accept it as he'd lying on top of you and you're suffocating
b) tell him that you're concerned for his health, or some other "nice" way to say "hey fatso, lose the weight" -- or just come right out and say "you're fat"
c) say "You're not the man I fell in love with" and leave him." -Brian
My answer is d) non of the above. At least not initially. I would cook healthier meals because its time I start eating healthier and
I want us to be healthy together. And I would invite him to go walking or running with me because I don't feel we get enough time together. I would invite him to run the 5k or walk for the cure with me because I need the support . I would say, lets take the stairs instead of the elevator because I am still trying to take off that (insert lbs here). I would try different things. I would make it about him helping me. If that does not work, I would have to go with (b.
"Flame me all you want but something I see a lot in the ethnic community is once the women get married and she has a kid something Russians call the "Babooshka Bomb" goes off. Temporay weight gain or weight gain for medical reasons is one thing but just letting yourself go because you got me roped in I resent and do so proudly, for either gender." - Viad
Excuse me but what ethnic community are we talking about? Since I am from what is commonly known as an ethnic community I would like to know. My guess is you are talking about a small group. I know a small group of women like that but it is not just in the ethnic community. But for the record, big hips, big legs (especially thighs) and big butts are considered attractive in some ethnic communities. I have been told many times by members of the ethnic community (both male and female) that I am too skinny and I am not skinny, I am average.
"The main reason to try and change the person your with is so that you will get comfortable and stay with them. If your planning on leaving after citizenship why would you rock the boat. Controlling someone in that way if your planning on leaving is wasted effort, this guy may or may not be an asshole but since he's here he can't be too stupid."
I think he is setting up his reasons for leaving after he gets citizenship.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 8:54 AM
Vlad~ I know of a woman who's in her mid fifties.
Old enough to know better, but married some guy from middle east. Even though he doesn't have his green card yet, he's very controlling, demanding, arrogant and selfish. She's the one with the money and has been supporting him right along. You're right when you say this guy can't be that stupid.....It's AMERICAN WOMEN who are the STUPID one's for hooking up with these guys in the first place and these guys know just how desparate and stupid they are! WAKE UP WOMEN!
Jan at April 9, 2008 8:59 AM
Jan: It's AMERICAN WOMEN who are the STUPID one's
I just want you to remember that YOU are the one who said this, and not me.
As far as the "Arch Bitch" thing goes - if you are the type to not take criticism lying down, I don't think you'd have wound up in the relationship in the first place.
brian at April 9, 2008 9:12 AM
It's AMERICAN WOMEN who are the STUPID one's
Always best, when accusing somebody of being stupid, to go for proper placement of apostrophes.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 9:15 AM
I was tempted to go all grammar nazi on her ass, but I figured I'd let it stand in all its delicious irony.
brian at April 9, 2008 9:45 AM
"Even though he doesn't have his green card yet, he's very controlling, demanding, arrogant and selfish." Right but my argument was not that he will or will not be a controlling asshole. I don't think he will be (unless he's dense as pig shit) that kind of an asshole and rock the boat if he plans to leave right after citizenship. If he's there just for the papers he'd be well behaved. In the case you mentioned I doubt he's going to leave because he has a setup that works for him, I may be wrong.
"Excuse me but what ethnic community are we talking about?" Mine, Russian. I'm describing something on the order of Kriste Alley at her top weight from Fat Actress, or larger.
One thing we need to establish is what is defined as over weight. The standard scale for Height weight and BMI are only valid for mesomorphic body types. If you have hips legs and ass you are not by default over weight. Are we talking the actress from ugly Betty (hips and curves) or or are we talking more Rasputia (Eddy murphy in drag). The affect of 10, 20 or even 30 lbs will be very different on different frames, distributions and height. I know at least one women who would be overweight by the classic std but she has REALLY big boobs (natural will be getting them reduced). Picture Renie Russo with a pair of E slapped onto her very light frame. A person who's 6'1" can put on 10 lbs and you will not notice. Someone at 5" it will be obvious and the effects would be dramatic.
vlad at April 9, 2008 10:23 AM
"Someone at 5" it will be obvious and the effects would be dramatic." The caveat being where the weight comes to rest, and what weight they were at. If at 5" she puts one 10 lbs and most of it goes to boobs and ass the results will be dramatic and positive. If a guy at 5" put on 10 lbs and it all goes to his midsection it will be dramatic and negative.
vlad at April 9, 2008 10:29 AM
"It's AMERICAN WOMEN who are the STUPID one's for hooking up with these guys in the first place and these guys know just how desparate and stupid they are!" No, learn to tell the difference between confidence and arrogance or the worst insecurities cover by arrogance.
This is my one main problem with male dominate societies. If you think the US is male dominated you really need to travel, preferable with an armed and loyal escort. They produce arrogant self entitled males, usually stupid. If all arguments can be won with the simple phase "I'm male therefore right" there is no reason to learn to think. Those who do not think become sheep for those who do. Hence mid east, villagers are getting cut to shreds through blind obedience and clerics call the shots, safe and away from the fighting.
vlad at April 9, 2008 10:44 AM
5' is five feet. 5" is five inches. The previous couple of posts got them swapped. Just in case anyone's having a fit picturing someone 5" tall putting on 10 lbs.
Norman at April 9, 2008 10:47 AM
I'm confused - I see no mention of a baby in the LW's letter. She says she was heavy, she had lost a lot of weight, the weight was still off when she met buddy in person, and then she's really quickly gained a lot of it back. I get the impression they haven't been married long, but cultural differences aside I think the "honeymoon" phase is over, at least for him. Its that, more than the fact he's from South Africa, that makes me think he's really not a good bet.
Brian: "If you were dating or married to a man who had always been in decent condition, and he (for whatever reason) gained fifty pounds would you:
If I still love this guy I'm going with d), same as Marie. Honestly, if time went on and it became clear he couldn't at least try to get himself healthier, she's right - it'd have to be b). I suspect its true that men are generally more visual than women when it comes to lust but everyone has a point when they're gonna go, Sorry, no ... " Seriously, I really dated a much younger guy. He was adorable, smart, kind, all the good stuff, but also hugely unmotivated and getting chubbier by the day. So I made the call ... I miss him a lot, but I had this mental picture of us in 20 years ... him enormous and welded to the couch, probably diabetic, and me changing his oxygen tank.
Vlad: Pregnancy probably does mess with your hormones making it easier to gain weight, more difficult to lose, and for those reasons including sometimes exhaustion, laziness, etc etc women do often gain weight. We all know that. I have to take issue though with the "roped in" bit. Let's be clear: individual motivations aside women get pregnant because they, or their partners, or both, can't be bothered to address the whole birth control thing. If you allow yourself to get "roped in" to either pregnancy or marriage its your own fault.
And yes, I agree this guy is setting up his reasons for leaving after he gets citizenship. The LW has already married him - why would he feel the need to be remotely kind to her? He's got what he wants already.
Have to say I LOVE the grammar lessons in these posts. Last week didn't we learn all about ellipses? I believe it was three dots ... in the middle of a sentence, and four at the end ....
loopychick at April 9, 2008 10:57 AM
Norman: Oops. 5'
vlad at April 9, 2008 11:00 AM
Amy: Since seeing the word "crullers" in your column this morning I have thought of nothing else, so I'm now running down the block to Tim Horton's. Well, maybe walking.
loopychick at April 9, 2008 11:03 AM
I have a friend who is 5'4", 110 lbs. I (and everybody else we know) have always thought she was tiny. Women envy her because she eats like a horse and never gains a pound. I use a picture of me standing by her at my smallest and a picture of me standing by her at my largest as incentive to keep the weight off. Here is the rub ... She went to the doctor not long ago and he told her that she was overweight and needed to lose some weight. I was shocked. If this girl loses more than a couple of lbs (literally), she will look anorexic (if not for the fact that she is well toned). She has hips, thighs, butt (all in proportion) but that is it. She is also smart and successful. Men stare at and drool over this girl. Why would a doctor tell her that she is overweight and need to lose weight?
On the other hand, I am 5'7" 175 lbs and toned but not well toned and people keep telling me I am skinny. They say that if I lose my chest I will lose about half my weight. Now we are all intelligent enough to know that it is impossible for that statement to be true but that is what people say. In fact when I discussed weight loss with my doctor, he suggested a breast reduction as a way to lose the weight I told him I wanted to lose. If you ask me, between the two of us, it is I that need to lose the weight (and not through a breast reduction).
Marie E at April 9, 2008 11:12 AM
I guess I should have added that as time passes and neither d) or b) worked I would have to choose c). As time passes the (hypothetical) guy will probably get bigger and bigger( or the weight will greatly affect his health. I suspect that will lead to me taking care of him. That is not how I want to spend my future. Taking care of a spouse/partner/significant other in that way would be hard but imagine taking care of that person because he refused to take care of himself. I would end up resenting and hating him. The resentment and hate will affect me negatively. Choosing c) will be the last alternative, but an alternative.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 11:30 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/04/cruel-and-crull.html#comment-1538898">comment from loopychickAmy: Since seeing the word "crullers" in your column this morning I have thought of nothing else, so I'm now running down the block to Tim Horton's. Well, maybe walking.
I could do with half of one myself! (It's how I eat crullers without coming to look like one.)
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 11:35 AM
"I have to take issue though with the "roped in" bit." I mean roped in as in the sense of an anchor baby. As a general rule it's easier for a guy or women to leave a marriage or any relationship if there is no child. So the argument is if she has a child and then refuses to take care of herself she was waiting to let herself till the kid showed up. The same goes for guys too, being a dad does not excuse you from at least trying to keep from turning into an blimp. I have never seen anyone who actually tried and just kept getting bigger and bigger without serious medical problems.
vlad at April 9, 2008 11:47 AM
Marie - it's because doctors are, by and large, idiots when it comes to weight. They go by BMI - a government sponsored idiocy about size and mass.
I am 5'9" and weigh 220. I'd like to get back to 180. According to BMI and body type, in order to not be fat, I'd need to be closer to 150. At 150, I'd look like a skeleton.
brian at April 9, 2008 11:52 AM
"Why would a doctor tell her that she is overweight and need to lose weight?" The standard weight charts the doc go by are useless for people with muscle tone. These are for the average office worker who gets little or no exercise. The AMA is slow to catch up but the doctor should use some discretion when applying it. Also not all doctors follow the AMA guide lines.
In your friends case the doc's mistaken. She's technically 4 lbs under weight even for a small frame. If she's also toned the doc's completely off his rocker even by 1983 standards.
http://tiny.cc/I3grD
vlad at April 9, 2008 12:05 PM
vlad: Point taken. But "anchor baby" - holy cow, we're all going to end up in therapy!
My doc says the problem with the BMI is that its a cookie-cutter approach to a whole bunch of unique people, and that the right weight for one 5'10" woman isn't right for every 5'10" woman. From a health point of view its also got a lot to do with where you're carrying the weight. (Yes, I may as well have just glued that cruller to my muffin top.)
On the other hand I just turned on the TV and How To Look Good Naked is on, so maybe it is just all about lighting and strategic draping to hide the "wobbly bits" and enhance the good parts. Hey, my feet are f*^@ing gorgeous!
loopychick at April 9, 2008 12:16 PM
"vlad: Point taken. But "anchor baby" - holy cow, we're all going to end up in therapy!" Probably not the best choice of words on my part.
Just to gibe you an Idea of how out there BMI is. Randy Moss NE patriot best running back is 6-4 210 lbs. is overweight as per the BMI. Randy f%$%ing Moss is over weight, that might be a sign to change the dame system you think?
vlad at April 9, 2008 12:29 PM
The woman was not pregnant, and there was no "baby weight" to lose.
FYI, I weigh more than you'd think, because each breast is about the size of one of the Channel Islands, but you can look at me and see that I am not overweight. In other words, have a flat stomach and no visible flab. And I actually never weigh myself, because I do not diet; I just eat when I'm physically hungry, and stop when I'm no longer physically hungry. A brownie never solved anybody's emotional problems. Eating one for the wrong reasons just causes more; even more if you eat 10.
Regarding the attractiveness issue/weight/BMI speculations above, I'm pretty tall: 5'9. If I gained 50 pounds, I'd look like an overstuffed couch standing on end. And remember -- most women are shorter than I am. So, let's just assume, shall we, that 50 pounds on a woman are not going to make her hot and sexy to men who aren't sexually attracted to very heavy women?
And FYI, she lost the weight before she met the guy, but any woman who wants a man should do what it takes to attract and keep him. A woman can also decide to say, "Fuck 'em if they don't like me 80 lbs. overweight." But, she should understand that she's diminishing her options in the market of hetero men.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 12:35 PM
I just turned on the TV and How To Look Good Naked is on, so maybe it is just all about lighting and strategic draping to hide the "wobbly bits"
Sorry, if you have "wobbly bits," you'd better get in the closet and turn off the lights if you'd like to hide them.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 12:36 PM
I think this LW 's problem was that in order to be with a person she lost an unhealthy amount of weight in an unhealthy amount of time. 80lbs is not a sustainable weight loss. 95% of people who lose weight gain it back in 5 years or less. And there is some evidence that dieting will cause you to gain even more weight than when you first started dieting.
Perhaps this particular man would not have been attracted to her +80lbs. But perhaps another would. She should get out while she still can and move on to finding someone worthwhile who loves her as she is.
There is no real way to lose weight permanantly without going on a permanant diet, and even those stop working eventually as your body learns to get by on starvation levels of calories and starts stocking some extra fuel away in case the self inflicted famine gets even worse.
Also, Vlad, to your point about women who cannot lose baby weight after pregnancy. I know it will come as a shock to you, but women have these things called hormones. These occasionally affect weight gain. And surprisingly a large amount of them are involved in pregnancy. My mom has been going to the gym and dieting to get off her second baby weight for 21 years now. Sometimes fat is here to stay.
And i would argue, despite recent hysteria, that fat is not all that bad for you. There is this thing called the "Obesity paradox" which shows that obese patients have a significantly higher survival rate for diseases like heart disease than normal weight and even slightly overweight people.
Shinobi at April 9, 2008 12:40 PM
When my husband was looking for health insurance he had a hell of a time because of his weight. Some companies turned him down, others were going to charge a fortune. (All this was done online.)
He's 6'1", about 240, so according to the charts he's morbidly obese. Never mind that maybe 10 lbs. of his weight is fat. He's just a naturally big, muscular man, which the charts don't take into account. Luckily his job provides health insurance, so he's covered now without the "fat" charge.
Kimberly at April 9, 2008 12:51 PM
"There is no real way to lose weight permanantly without going on a permanant diet," No it's life style change. You are correct diets don't work never did in fact if your on a strict diet your body will go into starvation mode, your metabolism will slow to a crawl. If you eat a reasonably balanced diet and get a reasonable amount of exercise most of it will come off. Could their be a few lbs that just won't leave sure but not 20-30 of them.
As I had said earlier this does not include MEDICAL problems that are the root cause of weight gain. Some women will experience permanent metabolic changes that can not be helped. Those do not seam that common. If you eat a normal healthy diet and get half hour or so of exercise a day and you still can't lose the weight then see your doctor and get check for a whole list of medical conditions. Many of those condition are very serious and have nothing to do with appearance, thyroid problems are the first that spring to mind.
vlad at April 9, 2008 1:21 PM
I wouldn't know if the diet/exercise routine was good or bad for her, but it's obvious she understands the value of looks in a relationship. I don't think it's wrong for the husband to say something about it, but if she's wondering resentment then they both have a few changes to make. He should learn tact and she should learn how to live a life that doesn't pack on the weight. (I had a very full time job once myself and I gained weight due to the stress and lack of exercise, but you can bet my eating habits got whipped around to make up for it.)
As a woman who has supported her husband, I do have to wonder what he's doing with his time while his papers are being put in order. Is he taking on odd jobs? (Don't need papers for mowing lawns as far as I know.) Keeping house? Making meals, being a walking partner? If all he's doing is criticizing without doing anything, then I'd have to say he's a slug and should definitely be put out. There's no manliness in tsk-tsking from a couch.
Jean Moczy at April 9, 2008 1:58 PM
My advice to LW is to learn to respect herself which she clearly does not because she would not let him walk on her self esteem that way if she did. She has to learn to love and value herself.
I was a chubby child (none of my 7 sisters and brothers were, just me). Boys thought I was sweet but unattractive because of my weight. One day I heard a guy say that he would take me out but only if I would let him play with my breast because that was the only thing attractive about me. I was 14 and it destroyed me (did not matter that my parents had a strict rule of no dating until I was 16). Then about a year later a guy told me that anyone who chose to put me down should not matter and therefore their opinions should not matter. He told me I was beautiful but I had to believe that for it to make a change. Everyday before school I would tell myself that I was beautiful. By my senior year, the weight was gone and guys were paying attention, however, I still had problems believing I was attractive, so I never went for the guys who treated me right because I thought I should just take whatever. It was not until I learned to respect and value me that I would accept nothing less from other.
Thanks for the chart Viad. I am going to pass it on to my friend. I told her that her doctor was a quack. I can also see that I need to lose at least 12 lbs by that chart to fit my weight category (large frame or at least I think so). My goal is 20 lbs (although people think I am crazy).
Marie E at April 9, 2008 2:52 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/04/cruel-and-crull.html#comment-1538942">comment from vlad"There is no real way to lose weight permanantly without going on a permanant diet,"
Wrong, if you're meaning diet in the form of deprivation.
The answer is as I put it there: Eat for physical hunger only, not emotional hunger.
Also, I find, per Taubes, that not eating a lot of bread, and eating mainly flesh and vegetables (covered in olive oil) keeps me full and thin.
That said, I eat ice cream about every day of my life. Of course, I go through about one pint of Haagen-Dasz chocolate-chocolate chip...in a week.
People who eat diet food mow through it like horses through feed bags. You need fat to feel full.
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2008 3:06 PM
Amy, I learned recently from an article in Runners magazine that women should get about 30% of their daily calories from fat. They did a study and found that women who got enough fat in their diets got fewer injuries. I try to do that, along with another 30% from carbs and 40% from protein. I keep a log of my daily calories on fitday.com and also track my exercise to see whether I am burning off the calories I take in.
It really is about watching those daily totals and seeing where they stack up. The critical thing is to be brutally honest about what you eat and logging it in. No swiping chocolates off the receptionist's desk and then 'forgetting' you ate them. Losing weight is harder than maintaining, because you have to consistently burn off more than you take in. And then it's good to take breaks here and there, where you just maintain.
If it takes 3,500 calories to burn off a pound, that's a rate of 500 extra burned every day to lose a pound every seven days. Harder than it sounds, but slow and steady wins the race.
Vlad is absolutely right about how you need to make it a permanent lifestyle change. I don't necessarily love tracking the calories like I do, but I may very well have to do it for the rest of my life. In my view it's worth it, not just for the weight maintenance, but for the educational value. Nothing spells out the consequences of a double cheeseburger like seeing how much exercise it takes to burn it back off. But sometimes it is worth it anyway. It also helps if you find exercise you enjoy. I love biking and would do it even if it didn't burn calories.
Pirate Jo at April 9, 2008 3:21 PM
"I know it will come as a shock to you, but women have these things called hormones. These occasionally affect weight gain. And surprisingly a large amount of them are involved in pregnancy. My mom has been going to the gym and dieting to get off her second baby weight for 21 years now. Sometimes fat is here to stay."
This is one of the most common myths out there, that 'hormones make you fat, and that once you have a baby you can't ever get rid of the 'baby weight'.Any of you could come, any day, to Japan, and see slim women out shopping with their 3-4 month-old babies. The Japanese tend to eat a lot of vegetables, tofu, fish etc. They gain an average of 20 pounds during pregnancy, much less than the average American.
I hear stories all the time about American women gaining 40,50,60 pounds per pregnancy, extremely unnecessary weight gain(I am not saying that the mother of the author of the above did,mind you). Same situation in Switzerland as in Japan when we were there (where I was pregnant), the OB-GYNs really kept reminding me and the other mothers that huge weight gain wasn't good,to eat sensibly during pregnancy. "Eating for two" is a bad idea, especially as during the first few months the one you're eating for is the size of a period on this page ;-)
In short, eating too much and eating the wrong foods is the only thing that makes people fat , although it's one of the hardest things to admit. As long as you don't have a thyroid disorder, or a severe hormone imbalance, the only thing making you fat is what's on your plate. My mother has weighed 200+ since her late 30s, she blames it on having us, but I remember her being thin between kids...she got fat when her youngest was 8, a little late to blame pregnancy :-) Observing her behaviour over the years, I know it's the pints of ice cream, the boxes of chocolates, the packages of cookies.
I (at 49) faced up to the fact that *I* was making me fat about three years ago. I started lifting weights, and eight months ago consulted with a trainer to modify my diet. I've lost 22 pounds over the past eight months, and have really firmed up with the weight training. It's possible at any age. You just have to admit what the cause is. I won't lose any more, I'd be too thin. I just want to keep lifting to stay where I am. And I'm doing it while going through menopause, without hormone replacement therapy (as yet...don't want to do it if I don't have to).
crella at April 9, 2008 4:37 PM
As for this guy, I can't blame him. No man should have to have his wife going from attractive to 80 pounds overweight.
One thing that occurred to me about his 'directness' is language ability. I married a Japanese man, and sometimes he was quite blunt when we first got married, but it was not lack of tact so much as inability to couch what he wanted to say in polite phrasing, a skill he later learned. Food for thought.
I'm sorry, but she is shifting responsibility onto her husband. He is reacting to the change in her, it's up to her to get off her butt and do something about it. She knew he wouldn't be able to work until he got his visa, she elected to enter into the marriage knowing it would be hard until he was approved by immigration. She should now try and deal with the situation as it exists. She has a bad pattern of taking care of unpleasant feelings and emotions by eating, THAT is the core problem here.
crella at April 9, 2008 4:44 PM
Crella: Weight gain/loss is not just about eating the wrong food or eating too much (thyroid and hormones aside). It can also be about not eating enough. Even if you are eating the right foods, if you don't eat enough, the body will hold onto what it gets and I got that straight from a medical professional.
In addition, I don't think it is fair to compare cultures. There are medical issues with the body that can be explained by your ethnicity, genetics, your age, certain medications needed to survive. There are people out there who can eat right and exercise and still have problems keeping the weight off. There are people out there who eat like it is their last meal every meal, always have food in their hands and their mouths, never workout, and stay thin. Ask almost anybody in the medical field.
So you are one of the lucky ones. Congratulations! But, not everybody is that blessed. You are suffering from the "everybody is like me so if it works for me then it work for everybody syndrome." It is okay. It happens to us all. That is how we deal with being so blessed or not so blessed. It is so much easier to just accept that we are all different.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 5:51 PM
My brother and his friend has the perfect arrangement. One of them likes pleasing plump women. The other likes the smaller ones. They see it as a win win situation. They will never be checking out the same woman.
"I'm sorry, but she is shifting responsibility onto her husband. He is reacting to the change in her, it's up to her to get off her butt and do something about it. She knew he wouldn't be able to work until he got his visa, she elected to enter into the marriage knowing it would be hard until he was approved by immigration. She should now try and deal with the situation as it exists. She has a bad pattern of taking care of unpleasant feelings and emotions by eating, THAT is the core problem here." - Crella
If she was able to lose the weight and keep it off until she married him then I would say THAT is the core problem. If she is taking care of unpleasant feelings and emotions by eating then maybe she is reacting to the "change in him." She admits to being stressed with the situation (as anyone would be), but that is not the problem (as stated by LW). And yes, stress hormones can cause weight gain (and prevent weight loss). She should kick him to the curb (hard, really really hard) and move on. There are men out there (with jobs) who will love her the way she is now.
I still stand on what I said before. He is setting up the scene to leave as soon asap after the immigration process is complete. However, he should be careful about leaving too soon. If it looks like a snake and smells like a snake, then... According to my IL teacher (who also practiced IL all over the country, the government does not like to be made a fool of.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 6:16 PM
Marie, I don't think you can discount culture. Cultural attitude toward food has as much to do with the equation as anything else. Living in Japan for 28 years, I am well-acquainted with the 'less is more if beautifully presented' food ethic here. Amy has talked about the way the French eat, a bit of each of the things you want to eat, no strict dieting.
Now, look at American food culture. More,more,more! 'Now with double stuffing' 'Supersize your meal for an additional 35 cents''Now with more toppings'. I just was in the US for 10 days and my God is it hard to eat sensibly, especially staying at a hotel. Meal sizes are huge, I couldn't finish a single meal while I was there. After all this time in Japan it is physically impossible for me to eat a full American meal. It's not a matter of being 'lucky' or being 'good'(one common remark when I don't order dessert). However, I saw those around me eat those big meals after appetizers, and then follow them up with cake and ice cream big enough for two people. So yes, culture has a lot to do with it.
After the hours and hours I've lifted weights, I don't like being told I'm 'lucky';-)A lot of hard work and sweat went into and continues to go into the health status I maintain.
"It can also be about not eating enough.Even if you are eating the right foods, if you don't eat enough, the body will hold onto what it gets and I got that straight from a medical professional."
Your metabolism will slow if you don't eat enough. Very true. If I don't eat those extra two small snacks per day added into my program, in a couple of days I will have gained a pound or two which goes away once I stimulate my metabolism again. Of course that is right, but can you get up to 250 that way, by 'not eating enough'?How many of the morbidly obese in America are that way because they don't eat enough?
One other interesting point while we're on culture and genetics, we got Costco near us about three years ago. The number of obese Japanese I see in Costco increase yearly, I estimate it at about 1/4 of the people I see there recently, and this in a country where obese people are exceedingly rare. Despite genetics, Japanese people who buy bulk foods and eat those huge baked goods get as fat as their American counterparts.
"You are suffering from the "everybody is like me so if it works for me then it work for everybody syndrome."
Not at all. I think that a lot of excuses for why people are fat are simply that, though, excuses. I don't think that my lifetime of observations of three differing cultures plus three family members with eating disorders is anything to shake a stick at. I've heard every excuse under the sun for not being able to lose weight. I was also an administrator in La Leche League Japan for 12 years and so have seen 400+ pregnant women in my career. The ones who gained huge amounts of weight during pregnancy had the hardest time losing it naturally (more weight takes longer) and the ones who ate with no regard to what they ate didn't lose it. I am not just looking at myself and forming opinions.
crella at April 9, 2008 6:47 PM
I also want to make clear that I am talking about the average person, not those with metabolic disorders, thyroid problems, those on prednisone and other meds that make people gain weight etc etc. If we had to list all the exceptions it would take another separate post.
crella at April 9, 2008 6:57 PM
Crella, it was not my intention to offend you. I am also one of the lucky ones and at times I have spent so much time in gyms working out that I did not have a life so I could stay in shape. We are lucky because that does not work for everybody. I know people who could live the "Costco" lifestyle and never workout and never gain a pound. I know large vegetarians (I use to be one of the people who said that it was impossible for a person who eats vegetables cooked healthy or raw to be big, but now I know different). I also know that when I was younger it was harder to put on weight and easier to get it off and the reverse is true now that I am older. I actually have to workout harder now than I ever did when I was younger to keep from blowing up. When I was young and chubby, I was not getting much exercise because I was painfully shy and stayed inside most of the time. I lost the weight simply by walking about an hour a day. Walking an hour a day now, would hardly do a thing for my weight.
Once I was on a medication for about six months. I started rapidly gaining weight then it peaked at 222 lbs (with working out and eating right). The doctor said that it was good because most people on that medication gain a lot more weight and that I was lucky I was not at least 300 lbs. It was hard to get that weight off even after I stopped taking the medication. Sometimes I was in tears because of how hard it was to lose. I have lost most of it but I am still not back to where I was and I have been told by the doctors at the weight loss clinic that I joined that it is unrealistic to believe I will ever be there again.
There is more to it than you give credit and and it is not as easy for everyone as you are making it seem. Some of what you call excuses are legitimate. There may be people out there who are not trying but there are people out there who are giving it all they can and are still heavy.
There are people out there who go years not eating enough, not knowing that is contributing to their weight problem. They don't discover it after gaining a couple of lbs and all is well. Like I said, just accept that people are different and so are their bodies.
Marie E at April 9, 2008 7:27 PM
You didn't offend me, that's why I included the smiley.
crella at April 9, 2008 7:45 PM
Dealing with weight gain is a lot harder when you're older. Suddenly, joints don't work as smoothly as they should, and you can't exercise when you want to. Your metabolism slows way down, and it's tougher to get it going again, if you can.
The LW has two issues. One is her partner, the other is her. If she wants attention, and her weight is bothering him, either dump him or lose weight. Immigration has some crazy rules about working, and she doesn't mention what he does, or will do when he gets a work visa.
She might want to consider a lap-band. Aside from her self esteem and frustration, it's dangerous to carry that much extra weight. When she hits her 40's, that weight WILL be an issue, and will reduce the activities she can do, and will increase her chances of an injury, especially knees, ankles and hips. Knee injuries SUCK, and they will never be right again.
gretz at April 9, 2008 9:04 PM
I've got the opposite problem to the guy in Amy's column. My wife's gone up two dress sizes (UK 10 to 14) in the two years since we've been married, but I'm not sure how to talk to her about this and it's really getting to me.
To compound things my wife's been very depressed with work and her family, so I think the last thing she needs is me telling her I don't find her as attractive as I used to. But she keeps asking me if I think she looks good and I have to lie and tell her I do, even when she's wearing my jeans and sweater to go out in (most of hers don't fit her anymore).
When we met she was a kick boxer and in better shape than me, in fact I even started going to the gym myself because she was so fit. But whilst i kept going, my wife hasn't, preferring to sleep in at the weekends or crash in front of the TV.
I guess it's all to do with the way she's feeling at the moment, and I'm being as supportive as I can but it's really starting to bother me.
Mark at April 10, 2008 12:40 AM
Good point about the restaurants. It is so easy to go to a restaurant and have them put about 1,500 calories worth of food in front of you. But you can divide that meal into three meals worth 500 calories each. If I eat at a restaurant in the evening, I'll follow it up with a long cardio workout the next day to offset it. To be fair, people come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. Restaurants serve one-size-fits-all portions, because they have to satisfy their six-foot-three, 220-lb male customers just like the tiny little five foot people. Nobody is going to send you to jail if you don't clean your plate, though. Just split it up into several portions and take most of it home.
Pirate Jo at April 10, 2008 5:02 AM
"The LW has two issues. One is her partner, the other is her. If she wants attention, and her weight is bothering him, either dump him or lose weight." - Gretz
I am all for her doing both. I happen to think she should start her weight loss by losing the dead weight first (him). If he is not there putting her down and stessing her out, it will be a lot easier for her to lose that weight.
Mark. I am not sure what a UK 10 or 14 is ... but it was said that Marilyn Monroe was a size 14. However, you have bigger problems than your issue with your wife's weight. She is suffering from depression. You need to talk to her about seeing someone who can help her. The depression may be leading to her weight gain but depression can lead to things much more dangerous than that.
Marie E at April 10, 2008 5:07 AM
Thanks Marie E,
My wife has been seeing a councilor for over a year now, so she is getting help for that, and she's changed jobs to doing one she finds more enjoyable. We're not out of the woods yet, but definitely much happier than we were, and I'm worried that I'll undo that if I speak out.
I hear what you're saying about Marilyn Monroe, but some women suit a little extra weight and some don't, sadly my wife is in the later category. She has a double chin and her waist expands, taking away her womanly curves and making her wear baggy clothes. I guess it's as if she's lost some of her femininity.
I want to say something to her about her appearance and how it makes me feel, but I don't know how to approach the subject or if even should. If it's going to make her feel the way it did 18 months ago then maybe I should just live with it.
Mark at April 10, 2008 6:02 AM
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kbling at April 10, 2008 6:47 AM
"There are people out there who eat like it is their last meal every meal, always have food in their hands and their mouths, never workout, and stay thin. Ask almost anybody in the medical field." I was an EMT in a private company in Boston and the main work was transporting people (really really big ones) to appointments (no rescue 911 for me). In a year and a half I had not seen one case where the patient ate right and exercised and still huge. Most doc I talk to say that if the patient wants to lose weight they can (again baring medical conditions) but most won't cause it's hard and requires giving up certain parts of their life style. Diets are dangerous to these people more than anything else casue the spend their days fantasizing about that food they can't have. The fall off the waggon and spend days or weeks eating (binging) what ever ther were not supposed to. So now the have binged on fried chicken (my personal vice of vices) while there metabolism slowed down due to the dieting, double screwed.
As far as Monroe being a 14 sizes have changed drastically since her time. I had it explained to me that a 14 then was more like an 6/8 now.
Mark for me the weight gain was due to my life sucking and once the horrid stress was over and I stopped being a poor grad student it got better. I still had to change eating habits and start exercising but it was a lot easier when I actually wanted to get up in the mornings. I'd wait a little bit to see if her weights starts to drop since the personal situation improved. Also most doc recommend find a strenuous activity that you can do together. Maybe get both of you started on a light kick boxing routine, Tybo while goofy might be a nice start. Finding an exercise that a person enjoys while hard has fantastic results, went from 300 to 240/250 in about 8 months with martial arts. If you hate the particular activity no matter how benifical most people won't keep doing it.
vlad at April 10, 2008 7:03 AM
Mark, it sounds like you have not one but two problems with your wife's appearance... she's gained weight, and she's not dolling up like she used to.
The weight gain is difficult. I've struggled with weight a long time, gaining and losing and gaining. It isn't easy. There are a few things you can do to help.
1) Don't suggest going to restaurants often. If she suggests it, it's another matter, but don't suggest it. If you want to treat her, take her for sushi, or pack a healthy picnic and go for a nice walk now that the weather is getting nice.
2) Don't bring junk food into the house. If she does, its her problem, but it sucks when you're being so careful and someone brings a ton of your favorite chocolate to you.
3) Do be nice and cheerful
4) Do go on activities like walks or hikes or canoe rides or swims. Be careful not to do something that is way outside her capabilities that would make her feel crappy. Help her work her way up back to being more fit. Sell it as a romantic excursion in the woods. Hell, if you need to start easy go to an arboretum or castle or pretty park or open air museum. Even a normal museum involves walking.
The second problem is the clothing problem. Having been every size there is from a US 4 to an 18 multiple times, I can attest that there are outfits for everyone. The sad truth is, when you're fat, you have to make MORE of an effort with clothes and make-up, not less. Take her shopping and buy clothes that look good on her NOW, as she is. It will affect the way she feels. Don't buy her the clothes that you both wish looked good, buy the things that do look good. And even if she has gotten a double chin and thickened at the waist, I bet there's still something she can wear. I mean... she only went up two sizes, and she started out as a super fit kick boxer, how fat can she possibly be?
One thing that you can do, is when she asks how she looks, go to the closet and bring out the clothes you think she looks sexiest in and say, "Wear this, it really turns me on." Then when she wears it, kiss her a lot. Positive reinforcement. I get dolled up for my husband very often because he's made it clear which outfits he likes best.
Nicole at April 10, 2008 7:13 AM
Mark - I'd agree with Vlad that you should tackle this together with your wife. Both of you can change your diet and lifestyle together. Not only is this much more practical in terms of cooking meals, it is mutually supportive, and can actually be fun. To begin with you have to count and weight everything but after a while it becomes just your way of life. It's a new hobby for a while.
View it as a shared problem; not 100% your wife's problem. It may seem to be located in your wife's body but it is actually located in both your brains.
If depression is part of the issue, you must help her to deal with it. This is one of those times in your life where you absolutely have to come through for her, because she needs help and can't get it by herself. Depression is dreadful, because it is an illness that prevents the sufferer from seeking help to cure it. It may be helpful to take drugs (eg Prozac) or it may be that other changes in your life are enough. Find something you like to do together and do it. Physical exercise is good; start with small things like going for a walk. Get a dog. Dogs are awful messy smelly things but they are good for you. There's not many women can resist a cute little puppy. But get advice on what kind would suit you - they are a commitment.
Life problems are all tangled together. Work at one and you will fix another. Don't feel you must fix this one before you fix that one; attack on all fronts if at all possible, but attack.
Norman at April 10, 2008 7:30 AM
Okay, I wrote this question to Amy, and i wanted to let everyone know that the reason he doesnt have a job is because hes not ALLOWED to work in the country. when i said "immigration process" I meant that he has submitted paperwork and cannot legally work in the country until he gets it. Hes not a lazy bum sitting in the house while I work, hes miserable that he cant support me let alone himself. I was really hoping people on here would focus on me having a problem with feeling like I might resent his feelings toward me and help me work through that or share their own experiences but it seems like all everyone wants to do is comment on how he should "get a real job". Read between the lines please, if he could work he would, he CANT. Seriously, when I reads the below comments when someone said "What A Loser" I wanted to cry, this situation (immigration) I one that I hope none of you have to go through because it is the most emotionally and financially taxing process to ever go through, especially when theres a chance you might not even get approved. This question to Amy was not about all of you labeling me or him as losers or defenseless wives or anything like that, it was just to see if anyone else knows what it feels like to go through this, because its really hard.
Erin at April 10, 2008 9:59 AM
Amy, I couldn't stop laughing at your initial response here, especially the second paragraph. It's got to be one of your funniest!
Pussnboots at April 10, 2008 10:12 AM
Gretz: Please go back to the thread before last -- I've left a message for you there, responding to your post.
Pussnboots at April 10, 2008 10:18 AM
Hi, Erin...so sorry about the cruel comments above. Immigration is a horrible process, and I either wrote this to somebody who e-mailed me a similar assumption, or posted it above, but my fantastic former assistant Lydia, an Irish girl who went on scholarship to Oxford, and then married an American, and is just a fantastic human being, was treated like a criminal by the immigration authorities. It's very, very difficult, and you cannot slip up -- like by working before you're authorized to, with the proper papers.
For the rest of you, when I do a question for my column, the question is generally an edited-down version of a long e-mail exchange -- which I had with Erin. I get a lot of questions about weight that are similar, but I answered this one specifically because the woman (Erin) wasn't some low self-esteemy with some jerk, but a woman who seemed pretty together and in a good and loving relationship, and simply had a few things that needed addressing. I found the parallels very interesting -- the idea that people should just accept you as you are (leading to possible resentment from Erin and the idea, by her husband, that you can just blurt out whatever's on your mind). So...both need to make an effort for the other person.
And that Schwartz book is just fantastic in terms of a philosophy for eating.
And thanks, Pussnboots. We try.
Amy Alkon at April 10, 2008 10:21 AM
Also, for some background cause i've noticed people are asking for it.
No, I did not have a baby.
No, he does not lay around the house. He does housework, takes care of the dog, goes to help my parents with anything they need help with/fixed around the house. He loves cars and spends hours (and i mean like 4 hours) vacuuming and scrubbing down my, my brothers, my mom and my dads cars when its nice out.
Also, believe me he's not jetting out after he gets his papers. thats years away. he hasnt even got a work permit yet. Permanant residency is over a year away so citizenship is like 4. I knew him for 3 years before we even moved to the country, we lived together in Canada for a year and our families know each other. He's not alone here so he can get his green card and leave.
Also, we recently joined a health club 1/2 a mile from the house. We signed up for partner training and we do it together. Believe me guys, hes not an ass. He doesnt stand 20 feet away from me and refuse to look at me. We hold hands, he has his arm around me all the time. When I come home he tells me how much he missed me and we have so many plans for the future together. He is just being honest, something so many men have a problem doing and so many women have a problem accepting.
Like I said before, I'm just afraid when I lose all the weight and possibly more than before and he is acting differently toward me and I'm getting a lot more attention I dont know how I will feel. Not necessarily resentful...but maybe something else. I dont know, thats why I wrote in.
But thanks for the comments, I read them all :)
Erin at April 10, 2008 10:22 AM
Again, it really is astonishing that people make the assumption that this is an immigration-based marriage, based only on the fact that he's waiting for papers.
First of all, I'm not a drooling moron...that's not exactly a foreign idea, but you can fall in love with somebody from another country with no motivation other than to have a compatible partner in your life. Love, lust and attraction don't know from national borders.
Amy Alkon at April 10, 2008 10:23 AM
Erin, I feel like kind of an asshole now, and I am sorry. The way your letter reads it didn't sound like you and your husband had much of a history at all. It really sounded to me like months on the Internet and then boom: married, and right off the top he's being critical. I don't think I was the only one. Honestly, most of the people posting here have your best interests in mind. I realize it would be problematic to have all your correspondence with Amy laid out here I would like to have had the information you posted today right off the bat.
As for the immigration thing: I like to be able to say I'd have much the same reaction if you'd said your husband was from Cleveland, but there's no question the new immigrant slanted my perception. Just learned something not so pleasant about myself.
Nicole made some really good suggestions to Mark about his wife that might be good for you and your guy to read. Also, I think vlad mentioned a thyroid check. Having just been diagnosed with hypothyroidism last year I can confirm it can have major effects on your metabolism, and can also contribute to a lot of the symptoms of depression. 1 in 10 women have it to some degree and a lot of them don't know it. Just a thought ...
loopychick at April 10, 2008 11:19 AM
... and I forgot. Clothing size numbers change all the damn time, from year to year, from brand to brand. I have a pair size 10 jeans, a 12 blouse and a 16-Petite blouse (I'm 5'10") so those can't all be right. And that's if I'm remembering right because when I bring the clothes home I cut the size tags off.
loopychick at April 10, 2008 11:25 AM
Erin, if I may ask: What do you fear you'll be resentful of? The fact that he's more attracted to skinny you than heavy you? Or that he hurt your feelings by phrasing it the way he did? If it's the latter, it may help to just tell him that he hurt you by being a little too blunt. You say he's a good man, so I'm sure he doesn't want to hurt you, and he may be willing to work on the tact thing.
Monica at April 10, 2008 11:54 AM
Erin, sorry if my comments offended you.
Marie E at April 10, 2008 12:59 PM
Monica, I'm not necessarily sure how i'm going to feel. I'm just using my past experiences as a guide because when I had lost most of my weight from before it was a lot over the summer while I was on break from university. When I came back in the Fall I got all of the inevitable attention from people who really didnt care about me before and i THOUGHT i would absolutely love it but it was hard for me to handle emotionally. I was really struggling with whether or not I should give any of them a chance because I knew they were good people but I couldnt get past not being worth their time before.
So maybe its not really focused on Adam. I think i'm also worried about having to deal with friends who all of a sudden want to invite me out more because I cant really wear "nightlife" clothes right now. I'm also worried about Adam's reaction to my attention from guys. When I first moved to Edmonton there were at least 2 occasions when guys whistled outside their car window at me and he just laughed it off because it was from a distance. But now that we're married i'm afraid he might be scared if I go out with a group of friends. We live 5 mins from Atlantic City and the nightlife is amazing and i'd like to experience it since most of my time thinner was spent in Canada where it was FREEZING.
Right now i've committed myself to focusing most of my attention to getting healthy and making and meeting small fitness goals. Maybe its better not to think of these things until i'm more toward my goals, i dont know.
Erin at April 10, 2008 1:05 PM
Erin: Yeah immigration is nuts. If I were to go to one of those interviews both I and my wife would fail miserably and one of us would be deported. Look like your both getting through this together which was the main idea. As far as the worry about green card marriages, they are VERY common and if your willing to take the risk can be quite lucrative so hence the suspicion, though I doubted it. Most of the sham marriages I have had contact with or know about are fairy tales for 4 years and then off they go.
As far as the resentment, why. We all like certain things. He likes you at a healthier weight, your experience with being heavy has colored your perception of the topic. The only example I can think of with guys would be shaving: If you prefer a clean shaven person then your husband starts to grow his beard your well within reason to talk to him about it. The asshole part is based on how you approach it: 1) Honey I really like it when your clean shaven. 2) You hairy filthy slob shave or I'm not coming near you. He's working through it with you so he's not an asshole and word choice can be cultural.
(don't drink while you are reading this)
True immigration story my mother was representing the immigrant these question and even more personal are asked in court:
Fed: "Is your husband circumcised?"
Client: Blank stair confused look
Clients attorney: "Drop it"
Fed: Repeat with more emphasis "Is your husband circumsised?"
Client: Shrugs "I don't understand?" in broken English
Interpreter: Blank look of confusion
Clients attorney: with more emphasis "Drop it"
Judge: "Is your husband circumsised?"
Client: "Show me one that is and one that isn't and I'll tell you"
Judge: Chocking "5 minute recess"
Clients attorney: "I told you to drop it"
Either their is no word for it in Japan or the interpreter didn't know it.
Immigration is a fairly brutal endeavor.
vlad at April 10, 2008 1:09 PM
Erin: Are you worried about his reaction to all the attention you will be getting or your own?
vlad at April 10, 2008 1:13 PM
Erin, thanks for clearing that up. It was wrong to assume your husband is a jerk. Our immigration process is a Byzantine mess, and that's not his fault.
I think I understand what you are saying. You take the weight back off and look great, and he's all over you. But this little voice at the back of your mind is saying, "Sure, you love me NOW." His attraction to you seems conditional, and you don't want it to be. Yet YOU don't find yourself attractive after putting on 50 pounds either - whether you find *yourself* attractive is conditional too.
I'd say take off the weight for yourself, and let your feelings for your husband sort themselves out later. It does sound like he's a decent guy. But you can tell him to lay off the rude comments. You get the point, already. If he succeeds in making you feel undesirable, then believe me you will end up finding someone else who makes you feel beautiful. You already know you need to take the extra weight back off, and his cruel comments are something you are going to find hard to forget. Try to resist the temptation to get skinny and then cheat on him out of revenge. ;-)
You need to do your part and get back in shape - you already know you can. And you know he loves you. Since this is important to him as well, you might be able to recruit him as a workout buddy, and he can exercise with you. He'll motivate you to go when you're feeling lazy, and this little project will be something you are BOTH invested in. You can share this little battle together, which is way better than this being YOUR problem and him glaring daggers at you until YOU fix it.
Pirate Jo at April 10, 2008 1:21 PM
Yes, I love your idea and its actually going to happen! We just joined a health club that gives each member 2 free training sessions (one assessment, one hands on tour of the club). He met with a trainer for the 2nd time today and he's totally taken to the idea. I've had a trainer before and it really motivates me and that way I know i'm doing it right. The partner training is much cheaper than individual training and we are absolutely going to sign up and go together 2-3 times a week.
They also have free hour fitness classes and I took a chance and tried the whole Pilates thing on Tuesday. I totally recommend it, its a killer workout. My abs are sore, but hey it reminds me that theyre still in there somewhere :)
Erin at April 10, 2008 1:27 PM
That's awesome! It has been a long time since I did Pilates - I've been doing other things. But now I'm thinking it would be fun to start doing that again. Hmm!
I am thinking about what you said about the way people started treating you differently. On one hand, why should they treat you like a different person just because of your size? On the other hand, ARE you a different person? I mean really, losing 80 pounds is winning a huge battle. I think sometimes that finding strength you didn't know you had changes a person - for the better. You may have started projecting a lot more confidence, simply because you were (quite deservedly) proud of yourself. People might have looked at what you did and felt proud FOR you, if that makes sense. It makes me think, wow, there is someone with self-discipline of steel! Lots of people hit the food when they get stressed. Next time your husband makes a rude comment, hit him instead. (No, not really - you both just go hit the gym.)
Pirate Jo at April 10, 2008 1:37 PM
I've spent most of my life fighting a body that wants to gain weight; I live every day with the knowledge that all it would take is about 18 month's inattention to diet and exercise and I would be a size 24 at 5'2".
From that perspective, I'd like to say that where weight is concerned, you do what you can do, and you try stuff till you get it right. Back in early '90s I got caught up in low fat mania, ate less and less meat, basing my diet on whole grains, legumes, butter-less potatoes, plus plenty of veggies. It was a freakin' disaster. Nasty energy swings, constant ravenous hunger, inexorable weight gain despite lots of exercise, and eventually borderline high blood pressure. I have no doubt that to people who didn't know me, I looked like a fat lazy slob who sat around shoveling in Pringles and watching TV, but the truth was I was doing five step aerobics classes a week and hadn't bought a loaf of white bread or a can of sugared pop in 15 years.
Went low carb in '95, lost 40 pounds and felt and looked vastly better -- until 2000, when I was in a car wreck, and couldn't work out for two freakin' years. Stuck to low carb, but put some weight back on, though nowhere near all of it. Went hypothyroid, and that made taking it off harder after my body finally healed.
Too, aging has taken a toll; there are exercises I used to be able to do that just plain cause me pain anymore. Last summer I got into sprint exercise, and it was doing great things for most of my body -- except my feet, where I got a massive case of plantar fasciaitis.
At this point I'm in good shape, and can wear jeans from five years ago -- but at nearly fifty I have a huge-ass fibroid making me look like I'm five months pregnant. No double chin, no big thighs, but the gut from hell, and the only way to get rid of it appears to be surgery. The thing that kills me is know that if I can wear those jeans from five years ago, I'm actually a size or two smaller, if it weren't for the damned fibroid.
My point is that people can do what they can do, but not everyone is going to wind up looking like the people on television. Time and chance happeneth to us all.
And thank God, my husband has made me feel cherished and desired through the whole thing.
Dana at April 10, 2008 1:58 PM
Oh, the low-fat craze. (groan) I used to think bagels with cream cheese were a healthy breakfast and wondered why I got wide. No, I don't get a referral fee for tooting the horn of fitday.com, but it certainly was an eye-opener for me.
Pirate Jo at April 10, 2008 2:25 PM
"But now that we're married i'm afraid he might be scared if I go out with a group of friends. We live 5 mins from Atlantic City and the nightlife is amazing and i'd like to experience it since most of my time thinner was spent in Canada where it was FREEZING."
As I said above, I am married to a Japanese man...we had our share of cultural misunderstandings. Anything you are nervous about, talk it over! That is the best advice I can give you.Talk,talk,talk.
vlad, the Japanese don't circumcise, so it's not surprising that the interpreter couldn't translate it.
crella at April 10, 2008 5:29 PM
I tried Pilates. It is a killer workout. I was a workout buddy for a friend of mine whose doctor told her she needed to lose 200 lbs. It was amazing because me with my "in shape" self was just going to be a positive influence on her. Yeah Right! She kicked my butt in Pilates. While I was laying on the floor sore and panting she was still going full strength. And I thought I was in such good shape, after all I had just separated from the military and was in top form (I thought) with less than 20% body fat.
Another good workout is Yoga Bootie Ballet. It is awesome.
Marie E at April 10, 2008 6:44 PM
For something fun, try Carmen Electra's Strip Tease: Vegas Strip video. Honestly, it's not a huge workout, but it'll get you moving and help you feel sexy.
Monica at April 10, 2008 6:54 PM
Hi, Erin -- you say your husband might be scared if you go to Atlantic City with friends. Well, that's easily solved -- why not go with him? That's another activity you could share. Just don't take any more money with you than you can affford to lose!
Pussnboots at April 10, 2008 9:41 PM
*For something fun, try Carmen Electra's Strip Tease: Vegas Strip video.*
Okay. But only because you insist!
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at April 11, 2008 10:20 AM
Erin, a suggestion: I think part of the problem is that your husband is in a situation where he can't do anything to contribute to the family monetarily. For most men, that feeling is absolutely a killer. My wife would tell you that the most miserable she's ever seen me was a period some years ago when I was out of work for three months. So my suggestion would be to encourage your husband to look into some volunteer charity work he could do until he gets his papers. I don't think there is any problem with him doing charity work as long as it's unpaid, and he'd feel better getting out of the house and being able to feel like he is doing some good for someone.
Cousin Dave at April 11, 2008 10:33 AM
Dave, you're absolutely right. He does feel that way. He is a very ambitious person that likes to work and keep busy and he just feels really unproductive even though he does as much as he can to stay occupied. It has also been a lot longer than three months, its been almost 10 because we waited awhile to file the paperwork then the lawyer we had took months to come through, then the paperwork itself takes at least 2 months. The way it looks now he should be working around the middle of May. I will mention charity functions to him, it may make him feel like he's contributing to someone even if he cant financially right now, great idea :)
Erin at April 11, 2008 5:41 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/04/cruel-and-crull.html#comment-1539546">comment from ErinHey, Erin, here's another idea. I started a program where I go talk at inner city schools to demystify "making it." I'm reading a great book by Sonja Lyubomirsky, The How of Happiness: A Scientific Approach to Getting the Life You Want, that talks about how helping others is one of the biggest highs...and it is.
I'm guessing most people have some special skill that they can use to make a difference. Just a thought. And swanky charity functions aren't as meaningful, personally, as doing something one on one for people. I'm hoping to hire one of the kids from the school -- this great, smart girl who reminds me of me at that age -- to do some filing or something for me. I'll pay her - but really I just want her to see how I work with my editorial assistant and see what I do so she can learn.
Amy Alkon at April 11, 2008 6:42 PM
I don't understand, why can't he apply for a work permit? My husband is going through the immigration process, and he is here on a work visa. I bet if your husband found a job that really wanted him, they would get him a work visa. It's also cheaper that way, though longer. I think citizenship is 5 years instead of 3, after the green card. But they pay for it, which is why he's applying through work instead of through me.
If he really can't get a work permit, though, the charity work is a good idea, and he might make some good connections. At the very least, he will have good references and people will be impressed that he did something with his time while waiting.
Nicole at April 12, 2008 11:49 AM
He has applied for a work permit, but there are processing times that can take up to 90 days. The absolute latest it will take is until June, but from what others have gone through recently it looks like the middle of May. Since its a general work permit that they issue while the rest of the green card application is pending he can apply wherever he wants, it doesnt have to be for a certain company, which is nice.
Erin at April 12, 2008 5:14 PM
There are plenty of volunteer activities that involve direct contact with people and/or animals. These are not "functions," like dances or fancy teas, but rather one-on-one situations which are very rewarding. Local newspapers and TV stations have plenty of info on them.
Best of luck to both of you.
Pussnboots at April 13, 2008 9:11 PM
This is another reason I love reading the comment here! Everyone has great suggestions that are really worthwhile. When I was unable to find a job, I started volunteering through my local red cross chapter. I was placed in a position that utilized my skills in my chosen career field - paralegal. It led to a follow-on job. best of luck to you, Erin!
PJ at April 14, 2008 7:39 AM
I love how the first women out of the box respond to truth with attack.
First, the work permit takes time. Can take 6 months as a normal deal.
Second, it isn't the guy's fault if he doesn't like fat chicks. 50 pounds is a lot!!!! for a woman who isn't 6'6" anyway. almost 10 pounds a month ladies, this is sick. This is a ho-ho in each hand 24/7.
Smarty at April 14, 2008 8:45 AM
Erin, I've visited South Africa, and the weight standards there are far different than in America. What we would consider skinny is normal for them, and what they would consider fat is normal for us. The difference is dramatic. So I can see why a wait gain of fifty pounds would be alarming to him. Just something else to keep in mind.
Robert at April 14, 2008 1:33 PM
Its all about honesty. Maybe women like to slim down to get their man and then pile it all back on again when they feel he's tied in but, well, some people call that false advertising.
If you are predisposed to be fat, then be fat. Dont pretend to be something you are not and then act shocked and insulted when your deliberate deception doesn't work out for you.
Tony at April 14, 2008 3:33 PM
You can't lose weight for anyone but yourself.
He's direct, but you knew this before you married him. He's also very aware that he's sans job and is loose at ends without many constructive things to do, other than tell you the obvious. Tell him you know, you feel awful, and his constant harping isn't making things better. If he loves you, he'll have to accept this extra padding, just as you accept his inability to put a plug in it.
It's true. Diets don't work. The only thing that worked for me was watching that BBC Show "You are what you eat." After watching that, I cut out sugar, and really watched my intake. Easy as that.
callie at April 15, 2008 8:06 AM
How is cutting out sugar and watching your intake "not a diet"? That sounds like the definition of a diet.
Nicole at April 15, 2008 4:36 PM
To me, a diet is deprivation. I eat when I'm hungry -- high-quality, high-nutrient food. I don't like to have piles of sugar because it tires me out. Also, per Gary Taubes' research of all the dietary science out there (as opposed to the "science" put forth as science), it seems that cancer and other diseases may be caused, or caused in part, by consumption of sugar and flour. Luckily, it's hard to feel deprived chowing down on a nice rare steak and some green beans swimming in olive oil. Of course, the portion size most people eat in a single meal lasts me for days, because I stop eating when I stop feeling hungry, which is pretty fast if you eat food with fat in it.
Amy Alkon at April 15, 2008 5:21 PM
How is cutting out sugar and watching your intake "not a diet"? That sounds like the definition of a diet.
What Amy said.
Pass the steak.
callie at April 16, 2008 9:15 AM
Vlad ... you've got way too much time on your hands buddy.
dammit_janet at April 22, 2008 8:20 PM
test
Gregg Sutter at June 24, 2008 7:24 AM
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