Where There's A Will There's A Gay
I've been an out lesbian for several years and am only attracted to women. A close male friend recently confessed his feelings for me. I've known him for years, and we connect in a way I've never connected with anybody. If he were a woman, I'd consider him my soul mate. If only I could somehow make myself bisexual. I love him, but have no desire for mutual pants-less-ness. In fact, the idea of sleeping with him grosses me out. Does no sex have to mean no relationship? Lots of hetero women have low sex drives, and lots are married! Should I give a relationship a try, but mandate that pants must be worn at all times?
--Dream Or Disaster Waiting To Happen?
Picture your situation as an episode of "Fear Factor." Host Joe Rogan turns to you and says, "Okay, missy, it's time...strip down to your bra and panties and lie in bed with your soul mate!" You freeze and whisper to Rogan, "Is it too late to take the night in the body bag with giant hissing cockroaches, flesh-eating worms, crickets and stink beetles?"
It seems you're a lesbian, not a "lesbian" who takes vacations -- hopping the ferry from the Isle of Lesbos to the mainland for the occasional hetero holiday. But, hey, why let that stop you from getting into a relationship with a straight guy? After all, as you point out, lots of hetero women have low sex drives, and lots of them are married (ideally, to men who also have low sex drives). The question is, do YOU have a low sex drive? Or, better yet, a nonexistent one? Does he? If not, you can announce that there will be none of that "mutual pants-less-ness," and he could be nodding like a bobblehead, but consciously or subconsciously, he'll be thinking, "Nah, I'll get there. Just a matter of time." It isn't a malevolent thing, just how guys are wired. Little by little, he'll work on wearing you down: "We'll just watch a movie on the couch." "Just take off your shirt." "Just take off your sports bra."
So you have "feelings" for the guy; I mean, in addition to finding him sexually repellant. You've known him forever, you have this amazing connection...why not add a whole new level to your relationship? No, not sex -- bitterness and resentment, after he's hurt that you won't just try a little ride or two, and you're hurt that he just won't stop trying. But, if only he were a woman! If only you were bi! -- as if bisexuals are the garbage dump of sexuality, attracted to anyone, as long as they're a man or a woman. Go ahead, keep wishing, but it won't change the fact that the partner for you doesn't have a hairy chest and a big package (except, perhaps, on Tuesdays at 8 p.m. at the drag king show at GirlBar).
So, what happened? Tough times in lesbotown with the last few girlfriends? As hard as it is to find somebody you connect with on all the important levels, you can't settle for somebody you connect with on almost all the important levels. Be this guy's friend by making him aware of how utterly nuts it would be for you to be his girlfriend. Be kind, but hit hard enough to knock the illusions out of his head: "Nothing personal, but my idea of an intense night in bed with the man I love is a heated political debate yelled between the top bunk and the bottom."
Okay, I assume everyone will beat up on me.
I think your answer captures 95% of the situation.
I think sexuality lies on a spectrum, and I suspect that the position on the spectrum is a matter of nature AND nurture.
If DorD has never been with a man, or if it were long ago at a much earlier age, I'd suggest that as long as everyone was honest, open, and communicative, that she may wish to give XY another chance.
If she does and she finds the sexual interests are just way skew, that says it's time to break off the relationship. Because it's not fair to her friend or herself to claim to be something she is not.
But I also think that lots of people, straight, AND gay set their sexual interests into concrete at way too early an age, and then can never let that go for fear of somehow betraying their image of themselves, or worse, their friends and families image of them.
So, believing that not trying is worse than trying and failing, I'd suggest, "try it, you [may] like it."
(And I am not saying at all that "gay can be cured" or "gay is a choice". I am saying most people are probably somewhere on the bi scale, it's a shame for either straight or gay folks to behave according to groupthink, group expectations, or even individual demands.)
jerry at August 6, 2008 4:26 AM
Why do lonley people always try to justify bad relationship choices?
lujlp at August 6, 2008 4:58 AM
Right, lujlp? The LW just needs to leave it alone. It'll never fly. o_O
Flynne at August 6, 2008 5:10 AM
I think the LW is one of the most self centered and self serving creatures I have read about here. I think her tough process is on the same level (or worse) than some witch trying to get pregnant by a rich guy. At least there the poor bastard get laid.
"Does no sex have to mean no relationship?" No it mean no intimate relationship. A no sex deep relationship is a friendship which you already have.
"Lots of hetero women have low sex drives, and lots are married!" Most I know of the hubby can't stand the wife and vice versa but they stay for the kids or in the name of the sky fairy.
What you could do is go poly, Dan Savage has some pretty interesting spins on this. Get a third who happens to be a women who is bisexual. Now this depends heavily on the guy so you'd have to gauge him for this. Thus you get the intimate relationship mentally and he gets his rocks off watching you and nailing her. I'm going to get flamed by the more conservative people here but walking away from the whole thing is best for all and Amy already said that, I'm providing an alternative.
vlad at August 6, 2008 6:09 AM
Ang jerry I think your full of crap, as a guy I have no problem describing another guy as attractive, aestheticly, but male features do absolutly nothing to get my pluse pounding.
Waliking down the street when I see a woman there is a portion of my brain constantly filtering the question "Would I hit that?"
That question never pops(pun intended) up when I see a guy
lujlp at August 6, 2008 6:12 AM
so... er, have people forgotten what friendship is? If she truly is this guys friend she already knows him well enough to know the answer to all of this. Interestingly enough, so should he. She should also know if he is testing the waters to see where she stands, and gently shut him down.
Sometimes telling someone "no" is the most loving thing you can do...
SwissArmyD at August 6, 2008 8:59 AM
The LW sounds more lonely than self-centered. She's willing to sacrifice the main element that turns friendship into an intimate relationship -- the intimacy -- just to avoid being alone. How sad.
MonicaP at August 6, 2008 9:02 AM
I agree with lujlp and MonicaP. I think it's a little bit of both. She seems lonely and because of that is being self-centered and selfish. Sounds like she's had some bad relationships and is wondering if being with a guy she has an emotional connection with would be better than being with a woman. I'm sorry, but it's a little bit funny in a way. It's almost the reverse of a woman that's had crappy relationships with men and wonders if it would be easier to be with a woman.
maureen at August 6, 2008 9:27 AM
While I know Amy has a lot more info than we have and has probably already tested the "how lesbo" thing, Jerry's not totally off base. Apparently, at least, from the female side. I'm sure I've read that lesbians are more inclined to have bi-tendancies than men. But, if she can't get hot for the guy, shut him down now. Seems odd if she's an out lesbian for him to hit on her anyway. Unless maybe he's just hoping for the three way vlad talked about. It's not totally unprecedented for a guy to be "just friends" (sincere or otherwise) in hopes of more and vice versa.
moreta at August 6, 2008 10:47 AM
I'm with Jerry. If she truly feels he is her soulmate (sans sex) as opposed to just a friend (I have lots of really good friends I do not categorize as soul mates) then it might be worth a try, IF both parties are clear this is a test-drive. I mean, maybe he's really into giving oral! He might like toy play! But, I may have a skewed view on this, as I lean towards the bi side of life. But hey, nothing ventured nothing gained, right?
Past that, what makes him her "soul mate?" She needs to find a way to go looking for that which attracts her to him, in a woman.
momof3 at August 6, 2008 11:15 AM
It's ridiculous and damaging, this notion that you CAN become attracted to somebody. You want what you want. Think about it in food terms: I hate eggplant. Do you think I can learn to think eggplant is as great to eat as steak? No.
I'm not one of those people who cares about people's sexuality. I would've been very open to having a partner who was a woman -- per the old Woody Allen expand your options by being bisexual joke. The thing is, I just am not attracted to women, and don't have a desire to have sex with them the way I do, say, tall men.
Amy Alkon at August 6, 2008 11:23 AM
All kids of excellent points here. But - the idea of sex with this guy grosses her out. Chances are that if she gives him a whirl she won't like it, and her subsequent rejection of him will hurt much more. It will almost guarantee that she loses him as a friend. I think she should sit him down and put it to him in those terms.
catspajamas at August 6, 2008 11:28 AM
Maybe she could go to one of the sky fairy's reprogramming camps, pray to be turned into a 'real woman'. (har har)
Seriously, she should just leave it alone, appreciate the friendship and tell this guy in no uncertain terms that there will be no sex.
Chrissy at August 6, 2008 11:33 AM
I agree. Even if she was attracted to guys, she clearly isn't attracted to THIS guy.
Asp at August 6, 2008 11:42 AM
While I agree you can't "learn" to like something as fundamental as a different sexuality, I did find the link that suggested women's (both lesbo & hetro) sexual arousal is less category specific. In other words, women are more likely to get turned on by both male and female erotica whereas men generally only get turned on by what they prefer. Or as Dan Savage so neatly put it this week, our sexuality is more "fluid" -- which he likens to superhero status. Anyway the study findings are here: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/sex_difference.pdf
And I used to hate brocolli, but I actually like it now. Not as good as steak, of course. But eggplant...blech!
moreta at August 6, 2008 12:03 PM
I'm amazed that she could even consider trying any kind of relationship other than friendship with him. She must not realize how important sex is to men and how much and how often it is on their minds, or she wouldn't consider putting him through the ordeal of constant rejection and/or frustration. Nothing good would come of it, and to paraphrase Amy, we are what we are.
Even if they stay good friends, there could be trouble down the road if they find themselves competing for the same girl -- they should probably keep their dates away from each other.
Pussnboots at August 6, 2008 12:13 PM
Moreta ~~ Our posts crossed in the mail. In spite of the findings on that treatise about sexual response, I don't think the LW is open to give it a try. She said the thought of it grossed her out -- sorta like the way I feel about eggplant, like you, and I KNOW I'm never going to try that!
Pussnboots at August 6, 2008 12:36 PM
Female sexuality in general is more fluid (see the Kinsey scale for how sexuality exists on a spectrum), but there are people who know what they like. A woman who is an "out lesbian" is not a woman who is a bisexual. Lesbians are exposed to hetero culture from birth and lesbianism is something they come to...they realize they are different from most women in what they want sexually, and some or many are with men first, but realize they want women.
I didn't have to experiment with short men to know I'm attracted to tall ones. People all the time make the mistake of getting involved with people they think they will become attracted to in time, because the person is a wonderful human being, etc. You want what you want. If you are confused, that's one thing. This woman wrote me at length, as do most people whose questions I answer, and she seems to be a woman who finds the idea of sex with a man repellant.
Personally, I COULD have sex with a woman, just as I COULD have sex with a short guy. I am not attracted to either. In time, getting involved with a person you find it a chore to have sex with, at best, if not "gross" as this woman describes it, is not a prescription for anything but misery.
Amy Alkon at August 6, 2008 12:38 PM
"... he could be nodding like a bobblehead, but consciously or subconsciously, he'll be thinking, "Nah, I'll get there. Just a matter of time." It isn't a malevolent thing, just how guys are wired."
LOL ... that is so spot on!
"bitterness and resentment, after he's hurt that you won't just try a little ride or two, and you're hurt that he just won't stop trying"
Likewise ... I can attest to this, having been in a relationship where the other partner had much lower sex drive ... and it just spirals downwards.
"Waliking down the street when I see a woman there is a portion of my brain constantly filtering the question "Would I hit that?"
That question never pops(pun intended) up when I see a guy"
Ditto.
David J at August 6, 2008 1:14 PM
A woman who is an "out lesbian" is not a woman who is a bisexual.
Even that's not clear. It's been way too long since I've been around college co-eds, but isn't college out lesbianism future heterosexual woman sort of an ongoing trend? (Hey its got its own wikipedia page)
Also, I think the notion that sexuality lies on a spectrum certainly does include the notion that many people are "fixed" at 99%.
And you forgot Anne Heche! (Kidding (channeling GWB))
jerry at August 6, 2008 2:04 PM
just as I COULD have sex with a short guy. I am not attracted to either.
SHORTIST!
jerry at August 6, 2008 2:06 PM
>And you forgot Anne Heche! (Kidding (channeling GWB))
Anne Heche is proof that some people will do anything for money.
brian at August 6, 2008 2:58 PM
re: Brian
Nah, Anne Heche is proof that some people will do everything for money, or even just for fun.
Gordon at August 7, 2008 5:10 AM
If she's "out" several years, she's probably not college age. As I originally suggested and Amy clarified, she's got way more info than the printed letter we see and is clear that this woman isn't on the fence at all. She ONLY digs chicks. So while some younger, maybe unsure "declared lesbians" might want to make sure they're not just worried about letting down the "team", this woman is clear about her team so she needs to stay on it!
moreta at August 7, 2008 8:18 AM
She'd be doing both herself and her male friend a disservice by sleeping with him.
Mike at August 7, 2008 6:54 PM
I'm 6'04''. There's a chance!!! Just kidding. Just kidding.
This seems to be similar to another behavior: women* get into relationships with men* for whom they lack desire.
In dating, men encounter the "professional dater," a woman who dates men she's really not interested in. I've always assumed such women were using men to obtain free entertainment, but maybe they're as dumb as the letter writer. Never thought of that.
*Apply the usual conversation meaning to 'women' and 'men.' Do not apply a universalization.
Jeff at August 8, 2008 1:17 PM
Women are sometimes raised to feel guilty for having sexual desires so it seems inevitable that these women will hook up with a man they are not sexually attracted to.
If a woman is comfortable with her sexuality and hasn't been raised to feel guilty about it, she will experiment and enjoy encounters which don't involve commitment from the first second the man & woman lay eyes on each other. Some would then judge her to be a slut.
You can't have things both ways.
Chrissy at August 11, 2008 8:04 AM
It's your column and therefore your right to expose (in a worldwide forum at that!) the stealthiness, brilliance, and intricate workings of the male mind Amy; However, if you are going to do so, at least give credit to us for mastering such a difficult skill, considering...
Considering that if we've dropped the panties, after having unhooked the wrong bra on the wrong woman, we'll be paying for it (literally) for the rest of our lives.
That said, please at least acknowledge the incredible risks we men face do to our inherent wiring!
All things considered, I think Rosy Palm has a very bad albeit, equally undeserving reputation.
Tony at August 29, 2008 8:18 AM
I have a friend, girl I go to dinner with and barhopping. She is with
another woman who she complains about frequently. example no
sex for 10 years? I care for her alot. Actually think I am in love
with her. Living in her home is also her ex., and her girlfriend
. Should I bail? Everytime
I am with her she wants me to listen to very sexy music with her.
I have kept my hands off of her because she is afterall in a relationship.
The problem is when she has been drinking she is very touchy feely with me. It makes me uncomfortable because often times her girlfriend is with us. If the 3 of us go to dinner she insists that her and I share our food. This has been going on for a year.reaches
out to give me a gentle pat, or finds a reason to touch my shoulder or hands. I told her I do not feel like going out with her girlfriend andher
ex, I feel like a hypocrite. She tells me that there was a time when she felt the same way, but now
is not a good time because too many people would be hurt. Am i
involved with a Diva? Shou
delia at March 9, 2009 10:48 PM
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