The Beginning Of The Endless
I'm a 21-year-old student who's been dating a 45-year-old man for three and a half years. He's been technically married throughout our relationship (two years ago, I discovered he lied about being divorced). I've given him an ultimatum: He has to be divorced by July, when I graduate. He agrees, but supports his 26-year-old daughter and unmarried 46-year-old sister (even paying to remodel her bathroom), and pays his wife's mortgage and bills. He manages to take me to dinner and helps with my rent, but he's pulled in so many directions. I'm told I'm very mature for my age, but I don't know how to handle this. I do love him very much, and we plan to get married and have children. Please don't focus on the age difference. A 27-year-old could have the same issues with a guy.
--Got Competition
At 21, being "very mature" for your age makes you less likely to end up on the Internet, naked and compromised, so corporate recruiters can lean across the table on job fair day and whisper, "So, tell me...were you in business school on a gymnastics scholarship?"
A few years back, you probably just missed taking a married, middle-aged dad to prom. Even if you were "mature" for your age, at 17 your greatest accomplishment is something like getting a handle on your pimples. Ask yourself what man in his 40s finds a 17-year-old girl his peer, his partner, his equal? Probably one who knows better than to hit on all-growed-up women who'd be quick to notice he doesn't just have baggage, but a caravan of broken-down U-Hauls. Think about it: You're planning to marry and have children (plural!) with a guy who's not only still married to somebody else, but supporting three other adults. And you're seriously expecting this to change? Okay, it could -- should an asteroid flatten all of them (ideally, Wizard of Oz-style, so you can scavenge any fabulous shoes he bought them).
Here you are in your early 20s, the peak of your hotitude, the time to date around and see what's out there, and you've taken yourself off the market for this guy? You actually have no business doing anything of a permanent nature in your early 20s. These years should be renamed The Idiot Years (a follow-up to the teen years, the Wildly Moronic Years). Recent research by child and adolescent psychiatrist Jay N. Giedd suggests the prefrontal cortex, the judgement department of the brain, is still developing through the early-to-mid 20s. While individuals do vary, you most likely got together with this guy before you were fully brained, and certainly before you had the life experience to know who to let into your world and who to send back to his wife.
Be honest: You know this guy is a bad bargain -- a married liar and one-man welfare state who's bailing out everybody but General Motors. But, because you got attached (perhaps both to the guy and to the guy paying your rent) you're working very hard to tell yourself love is all you need. Be sure to tell that to your kid when he has a toothache and you can't afford the dentist, or when you're consoling him after he wets the refrigerator box (he'll have a bed to wet just as soon as Daddy finishes paying off his sister's new kitchen).
LW: If you're as mature as you think you are, you'd know to run, run, run. And I'm not even talking about age. This man has already lied to you about something as important as being married. Take it from someone who stayed in a miserable marriage for five years because she was "in love": Love isn't enough. You also need someone who will be honest with you about the big and little things.
And don't delude yourself about finances. It will be an issue eventually, when you want to buy your own home or some new furniture, but you can't because his ex-wife still has a mortgage. His wife, sister and daughter are not going to jump off that gravy train gracefully. You don't need that kind of baggage.
MonicaP at December 10, 2008 4:57 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612518">comment from MonicaPHilariously, some dude wrote me accusing me of writing the answer I did because I hate her for being a young girl with an older guy. Yeah, that 45-year-old still-married liar who goes after high school prey is every woman's ideal! And for the woman who wants to have children -- or just a dinner out isn't served in red cardboard -- I highly recommend going for the man with the family of mooches he's looking after.
Amy Alkon at December 10, 2008 5:04 PM
I don't think it's coincidence that this guy is supporting three adults, supplementing a fourth, began in his 40s to date a 17-year-old, and then lied about his marital status. First of all, he has trouble saying 'no' to women. Second, by dating the barely legal, he gets someone who can look up to him and think he's competent and mature, when he's actually a basket case. Third, he gets someone slightly more controllable than an older woman--he likely finds more mature women to be burdensome because they're more assertive, and since he can't say 'no' to them, that's a problem. If the relationship continues much longer, the LW will realize all of this herself, but it might be too late, because she'll already have had a baby with him, so she'll be stuck with him in her life in some fashion for years.
It's also worth noting that given that he has a 26 year old daughter but is 45 himself, that he was 18 or 19 when he became a father. His adolescence was cut short and he likely is bummed about that. So above and beyond the other appeals of dating a teenager, he's looking to get his youth back. Which is common with middle age crises. But I wonder if his will be more pronounced than most. And if he really wants to be a father again. I mean, given he can't say no to women, he might end up a father regardless, but that would suck for the kid if he didn't want to be a father again, and the wife might find him uninvolved.
Quizzical at December 10, 2008 6:54 PM
I think I know this woman. In addition, the guy treats her like shit and she keeps going back for more.
I suspect daddy issues.
And don't get me started on the guy. If he lied about being married to get you in the sack, he's gonna lie to the next girl about you.
But is there necessarily something wrong with a man in his 40s who is interested in women who are in their 20s?
brian at December 10, 2008 9:26 PM
Although I will admit that in this case, a guy dating someone younger than his daughter is more than a little creepy.
brian at December 10, 2008 9:28 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612607">comment from brianMen are attracted to young women. Nothing wrong with that.
Amy Alkon at December 10, 2008 11:54 PM
This girl has got to be nuts. I think Amy and the previous posters got her pretty good.
Got Competition, you are 21. Buy health insurance. Take foolish risks, jump out of windows, walk in traffic; you need to enjoy your younger years. This guy isn't going to change and you need to enjoy yourself. In the words of my psychiatrist Dr. Sidney Freedman: "Take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice."
This guy has lied so far, and not on a small thing..."I'm still technically married." is not small...that's pretty damnable...enjoy yourself...getting married is irresponsible before at minimum 25.
Amy, there's nothing wrong with men being attracted to young women...that's biology. It's what you do after that that matters. There is the rule of "Divide by two and add 6" to consider, naturally if the number comes to less than 18, walk away.
Blackjack at December 11, 2008 12:18 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612620">comment from BlackjackAren't all psychiatrists named Dr. Sidney J. Freedman?
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2008 1:08 AM
Guy is a predator, LW is a dupe. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Run far, run fast, little rabbit! Do NOT waste your life with this lying sack o' shit. It'll be nothing but misery, for sure. You just can't see it right now, because he's got you convinced it's "love". It ain't. Honesty first, honey. Honesty all the time. If he's not giving you that now, he never will. I'm sorry. Gads, Amy, I hate seeing letters like this, it's so freakin sad. o.O
Flynne at December 11, 2008 6:01 AM
I get that biology draws some guys to extremely younger women, but there is something rather creepy about a married guy who's forty, trying to date a seventeen year old little girl. We aren't total slaves to biology or even evolutionary drives. While I definitely think that seventeen is a reasonable age for kids to assume their sexual majority, (actually I'd say sixteen), that doesn't make this any less boarderline pedophilia. I mean hell, the guy has a daughter older than LW.
Dear sweet LW, I spent many years as a hippie type. I was around a lot of situations similar to yours. Go, go away now and never look back. Because where you are now doesn't begin to look any prettier with the years and around the time you're hitting thirty, the man's going to be looking out for a younger model. How do I know? Because that's what he does.
You may think that this is going to change. I can assure you, that the odds of him changing are less than those of you winning the lotto. Or getting struck by lightening a third time. Conceivable, but highly unlikely.
And the further he stretches, the less there will be. You shouldn't be surprised to find that before long you'll have the daughter living with you guys, or possibly the ex-wife, who never quite seems to become ex.
Unfortunately, from my historical context, I doubt you're going to listen to Amy, much less any of us. Because "we just don't understand." Or because, "he's different, you'll see. He's not like the others."
Yes, yes he is. Unfortunately, you probably are too. I sincerely hope not, for your sake and the sake of your child.
DuWayne at December 11, 2008 6:06 AM
Dear letter writer... Snap out of it. Read over that preposterous set of facts you sent to a total stranger, Ms. Alkon. Do you really need advice in that situation, or do you just need some courage pills to leave the man?
Everyone else, just because men age past 17--when it is acceptable for them to bed teenagers-- doesn't mean they stop being attracted to the bodies of teenagers a few years later. Most men desire women who exhibit signs of fertility. Young women in their late teens and twenties are most fertile. That is just the way it is. Telling men they should not be interested in fertile women because of their age is like telling women they should not be interested in high status males exhibiting robust physicial traits. Good luck with that.
Spartee at December 11, 2008 6:38 AM
Spartee -
There is a huge difference between older guys who are attracted to young girls and older guys who actually prey on them. One is natural for some men, the other is creepy and legal or not, predatory.
DuWayne at December 11, 2008 6:42 AM
Um... Has nobody else noticed that he had his daughter at 19? This guy has some issues.
He's been married (I assume) for 26-odd years and started an affair with a 17 year old when he was 41. He's going through a massive midlife crisis and/or he doesn't have the guts to break up with his wife.
Assuming he does divorce the missus, this guy is going to get reamed in the settlement. 45 is not a good stage in life to be starting again, and is he going to look so attractive when he's flat broke and bleeding out alimony?
She shouldn't be anywhere near this guy. He's a train wreck waiting to happen, and he'll pull her down with him at a stage where she, as Amy wrote, should be starting to really enjoy life.
James H at December 11, 2008 7:01 AM
Amy, when you wrote that some dude emailed you that you must hate this girl because she is younger and has an older guy, I was going to say that, as a 44-year-old man, I agree with everything you said. Then I realized that this type of person would just accuse me of being jealous. Oh, well.
Sure, I'll goggle at someone like that little 18-year-old Hayden Pannettiere on Heroes, but when I think about someone I would like to spend more than 5 minutes with, the notion of that being a woman under about 30 just makes me cringe. There might be some women who I could get along with for an extended time who are under 30, but probably not many.
Here's something that the LW probably didn't think of - her "boyfriend" obviously likes younger women; what's the likelihood she's not the first one? He's probably done this before, and if she gives in on her ultimatum (which she probably will) when she gets to be about 25 or so, and actually tries to be more assertive, he'll dump her and start looking again.
WayneB at December 11, 2008 7:27 AM
Amy, you couldn't have hit the nail on the head more accurately if you'd tried...I 100%, totally agree. This young lady needs to run far and fast while she still can; this guy is T-R-O-U-B-L-E. She is not the same person now at 21 that she will be at 31, and if she continues down the road with this man, she'll now have a couple of kids to deal with on top of a now 55-year old LOSER. Any man in his forties who considers the local high school an acceptable dating pool is a sicko. It's NOT the age difference. (DH and I are 17 yrs apart) It's how old they are when they began their relationship. A decent 41 yr old man would not be preying on, er, "dating" a HS senior who is younger than his daughter. This young woman has her whole life ahead of her--I hope that for her own sake and certainly for the sake of her unborn offspring that she hopes to have in the future, that she cuts this man completely out of her life and NOW!
Beth at December 11, 2008 7:37 AM
Just read Amy’s intro to this column in the Blog section, which sets the scene pretty well.
I have lots of scattered thoughts on this one:
The line that bothers me most is: “He manages to take me to dinner and helps with my rent, but he's pulled in so many directions.” You DON’T DATE A GUY JUST BECAUSE HE CAN PAY FOR YOUR SHIT!
Age wouldn’t be as big of an issue had they not started dating when she was 17. It would still be an issue, though.
If this girl wants to be a trophy wife, fine. I don’t think it’s really an admirable goal, but to each his own. What she IS right now, however, is a mistress. She needs to be aware of that.
ahw at December 11, 2008 8:43 AM
Um... Has nobody else noticed that he had his daughter at 19? This guy has some issues.
Yes, above--doesn't anybody ever read what I write? Sigh.
For those of you who don't read Amy's blog, she mentions:
information I found out in my correspondence with the girl -- that she got pregnant at 15 by some other older guy. And if you guessed that she was yet another daddyless teenager, you'd be right. That's what daddyless girls do -- look for daddy in every scumbag with a five-o'clock shadow who pops up.
Social workers sometimes say such kids (plus other kids who have been abused or who are underparented) have "sitting duck syndrome." Every predator around can spot 'em as vulnerable a mile away. On a different note: a sociobiologist found evidence that girls who are raised without a man in the home go through puberty earlier than girls with fathers around. As a personal observation, I'd say this kind of situation explains why people can describe the LW as mature for her age, yet at the same time, we here are so critical of her decision, which seems the kind of decision that a very immature person would make. My opinion is that kids raised in troubled homes quickly gain SOME of the hallmarks of maturity--an ability to take care of oneself, to negotiate a variety of adult responsibilities, that kind of thing. But the lack of adult guidance and teaching leaves them simultaneously woefully immature when it comes to knowing what is proper treatment and proper behavior, and what is abuse. I'll bet the LW has been a more responsible student than her college classmates, better able to live alone without having the homesickness so many college kids have, especially those with helicopter parents. Probably has a heavy combo of classes and work, too. But the helicopter-parented would never think to take the path she has taken of dating this lying predator.
Quizzical at December 11, 2008 8:44 AM
Once again, a wonderful reminder that there is a big, big difference between being "mature for your age" and actually being mature.
scott at December 11, 2008 9:04 AM
I'm torn between thinking the guy is a complete moron or the girl is a complete moron, or both. On one hand, if she marries this guy odds are she will divorce him anyway in three years or so. then he will be on the hook for child support for 20 years, and at 45, that really cuts into his life earnings and his future. I hope he got a vasectomy. He is not very nice cheating on his wife either, but noone seems to have addressed that. Bottom line: the guy is an idiot having a mid-life crisis and is having some fun.
On her part, I was wondering if she actually has a brain and can think for herself. Well of course she does! She has made a choice to pursue this guy, and no matter what we all say she will continue. Does she not feel bad that she is dating another woman's husband? The letter, and other commentors here, have ignored his poor wife.
But then again, 21 is mature enough to make your own decisions, isn't it? Or is anyone 21 and below incapable of making good decisions??? Careful now...
Bottom line: She is an idiot for dating a married man. But, like him, it is her choice and she must be accountable for it.
Odds are the guy will never leave his wife. He will continue to reap the benefits of dating a 21 year old until she realizes that it is not worth it, or until some 25-year-old hot frat boy comes along. The guy will stay with his wife and that will be that.
If she would have ignored him appropriately at the beginning, they would have never gotten together. You have to wonder about how they first hooked up.
mike at December 11, 2008 9:14 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612712">comment from WayneBwhen I think about someone I would like to spend more than 5 minutes with, the notion of that being a woman under about 30 just makes me cringe.
Exactly. I ran into this guy I know today -- this painter I know from New York -- on the street in Paris...really smart, interesting, and tall and very hot guy. My boyfriend didn't believe me when I said we never dated, but we actually never did. I can't remember why, but I'm guessing it's because he knew me in my 20s. I was, to put it plainly, kind of an asshole, especially in my Socrates years, the early 20s, before I figured out how little, exactly, I knew. But, I was also not really an adult. Having an adult-ish body doesn't make you mature. It just makes you...meaty.
My boyfriend and I, with 13 years between us (I'm 44, he's 57) have just about as big a generation gap as we could manage. We're great together, but if you're a young girl and a guy's 13 -- or more -- years older, it's a serious age difference.
Also, I've discussed this with a guy who's a good friend of mine. He's always told me I'm too young for him. There are guys, especially really smart guys, who look lustily at some hot 18-year-old (hell, I look somewhat lustily at them and I'm not even a lesbian), but couldn't imagine trying to have a conversation with her.
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2008 10:23 AM
My boyfriend and I agree that people under the age of 25 are worthless in relationships. (This doesn't apply if you yourself are also under 25.)
I'm sure lots of people will get their panties in a knot about my generalization, but that's been our observation. So much happens between 20 and 25 that I look back now and almost don't recognize myself. It's dangerous to take marriage vows and make babies during this time.
MonicaP at December 11, 2008 11:13 AM
The guy will agree to anything she says, just as long as she keeps sleeping with him. He'll never leave his wife, but she'll keep giving him another chance to divorce her, then another.
I think he'll get tired of her after a while anyways, and get himself another stupid 17 year old.
The sitting ducks are really easy to spot: they act really tough, but are complete pushovers. The really sweet ones that I've seen turn into complete hardasses when dirtbags like this guy try their routines on them.
Chrissy at December 11, 2008 11:29 AM
Run, girl, run. The LW might be mature for her age (if that's even the point) but clearly this 45 year old has the maturity of a ten year old. Sure he takes care of his wife, his 27 year old daughter, and his sister. That makes him the head of the household in 3 residences, now he's tacked on another 21 year old's rent and emotional expectations of having even more children to support? I've heard of multi-tasking but this guy's gone way too far. Is he just too chickenshit to cut off the marriage? Or tell his sister to remodel her own damn bathroom? Perhaps there's some medical reason why or whatever, but clearly this LW still doesn't have the whole story of what exactly this guy is all about. And no, age doesn't matter .... honesty does though. And this guy is honestly married supporting a kid and a family member, none of which entitles her to make any ultimatums about what he should do in respect to her 21 year old assumptions. I'm actually having trouble deciding who's the real idiot in this relationship, so I'd have to say they should both run for the hills. Fortunately he'll have 3 different places to stay, but she'll have to find some other way to make her rent payment other than freeloading off a married man that lies to her.
Abby at December 11, 2008 11:49 AM
"There is a huge difference between older guys who are attracted to young [women]* and older guys who actually [bed]* on them."
Yeah, the latter close the deal. ;) I kid, I kid the supercilious poster!
* Loaded terms to slant debate changed to more neutral, less charged words
Spartee at December 11, 2008 12:08 PM
So when I was college age, I got into a relationship with a woman who lied to me about her situation. When we started dating, she told me that she had been separated from her husband for over a year and that she was waiting for the divorce to become final, and that she had no kids. I eventually found out, through a mutual friend and my own snooping, that she was in fact living with her husband, had not filed for divorce, and had a kid.
When I first met her, I thought she was hot stuff, and indeed she was, and she treated me well when we were together. However, once I found all this out, I lost desire for her. The whole thing, with her going back and forth between her husband and me and leaving the kid with various relatives, was just too weird for me. (Plus, I met two of her sisters, who were both batshit insane.) Lesson: Weirdness trumps hotness.
Cousin Dave at December 11, 2008 12:15 PM
Amen, Cousin Dave.
Abby at December 11, 2008 12:55 PM
Another pitfall the LW should watch out for is getting pregnant. If she's grown up daddyless, there's a good chance that what she missed out on more than anything was to be loved and valued. Lots of young women get pregnant because they can get that unconditional love from their baby, and it means so much to them that they will not claim support from the father if it seems like a lot of hassle or might lead to visitation rights. They'll just get along fine, the two of them together in a rosy love-powered glow, madonna and child against the cruel world.
That suits the father just fine, of course. But in a surprisingly short time, babies grow up into troubled teenagers and guess what, there's no daddy around. Da capo ad lib.
Norman at December 11, 2008 1:11 PM
LW, I might be channeling Dr. Laura here, but just remember:
- Separated = Married
- Awaiting a divorce = Married
- Wife treats me bad = Married
- Intends to divorce = Married
- Married = No-no. While I generally don't go for absolutes, I can't think of any exceptions to this rule.
I'm sure LW can do better than this, but needs to actually believe she can.
old rpm daddy at December 11, 2008 1:34 PM
Spartee -
I'm not slanting anything, nor am I trying to debate. Past the early twenties, a guy chasing after a seventeen year old girl, is a fucking creepy perv. And as others have noted, it's not the age difference, it's the age of the younger party. If for no other reason, girls that age need the chance to explore what life has to offer. They need the time to develop and mature, no matter how mature they are for their age.
I'm thirty two. When I was in my mid-twenties, I happily sexed women in their late thirties. Even in those situations, there was no notion of a serious relationship, because I was too young for either of them.
There was a period when I was separated from my partner, when I was thirty. My six year old was a very sweet, terribly cute four year old. And I was still pretty good looking, charming and generous with my time and skills. I had four young women in my church, ranging in age from eighteen to twenty-three, who were pretty well smitten with me and my son. Two of them had parents who would have loved to see me settle with their daughters. (at that point my business was pretty successful and I led worship on Sundays)
For one thing, I was interested in trying to fix things with the mother of my son, not dating. But even considering any of those girls/young women, made me feel like a dirty old man. And even at thirty, I would have been. Not because of the age difference, but because they were still virtually children. They acted like kids, even more innocent than I was at that age, because they weren't smoking pot, cigarettes and it's unlikely any of them were sexually active yet (excepting one of them, who probably was).
Point is, as far as I'm concerned, it would have been creepy for me to take an interest in any of those girls. Forty chasing and dating a seventeen year old - probably legal depending on the state, but the dudes a fucking perv.
DuWayne at December 11, 2008 4:07 PM
What's funny is that she says even a 27-year-old would have the same problems with him.
Well, yeah... 'cause even a 27-year-old would be too young for him.
NicoleK at December 11, 2008 4:29 PM
> Men are attracted to young women.
> Nothing wrong with that.
Thanks for saying that, and leaving it handsomely unadorned... It was getting out of hand.
(Should I go through all the politically correct maneuvers? Probably. OK... )
It's not that romances like the one in this letter are admirable. It's likely that there's a troubled person on each side of this pair.
But Quizzy's list of 6:54pm, detailing the reasons that a guy might pursue such an involvement, skips an important motivating force which would, in the real world, never rank lower than second: "Firm rack!".
(Or glowing skin, thick hair, whatever.)
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 11, 2008 4:41 PM
Yeah, but come on. You can find firm boobs that aren't jailbait. There's really only one reason a grown man (and I'm not talking an 18 year old, or even a 21 year old here) goes after a teenager. And that is, she's stupid and malleable. Sorry, no insult, but it's true. He didn't meet you and see some mature, witty, intelligent woman. He met you and saw a little kid with no self-esteem who would obviously sleep with him and who was too young to know better. And let's ignore the fact that he's a cheating lair. Even without that, you need to run. Run, get counseling, and have as much of a young twenties as you can with a little kid of your own (per Amy's comments on her blog post on this).
When I was 16, an older man showed interest in me. He was only 10 years older. "Only". He saw me, and saw a rebellious kid who would date him because daddy would hate it. And parents who would not let their little girl be homeless or hungry no matter what. And I was dumb, and flattered. I married the underemployed loser, who couldn't get a woman his own age cause they know better. I was not dumb enough to let him get me preggers, thank god, and 3 years later the divorce came through. And I went back to being a young person, went to college, all the good fun stuff. So I know what I'm talking about when I say You Don't Love This Man and He Does Not Love You. You need to go find what real love is. Leave him to his wife, and kid, and baggage.
These older men aren't your daddy and can not ever be. And you need to acceot that and find love that's appropriate now.
Oh, and yeah Amy, men are attracted to younger women. But women younger than their own daughters? That's ick, and a bit pedophilic, even if she hadn't been as young as she was when they met.
momof3 at December 11, 2008 5:45 PM
Oh, I don't know. What kind of guy in his 40's wouldn't go for a teen girl who ends every statement? By lifting her voice? At the end? Like she's asking a question? But she's really not?
I'd poke my ear out first.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at December 11, 2008 6:17 PM
You are not mature for your age. He TELLS you are mature for your age.
No mature person would put up with serious dishonesty you've discovered and then expect him to be "Healed in the name of JEEEESUS'AH",
suddenly giving up his ingrained habitual lyin' cheatin' ways.
(Beware of married men that lie and ministers that add "'ah" to the name Jesus)
Sai Babablacksheep at December 11, 2008 6:23 PM
Lesson: Weirdness trumps hotness.
Cousin Dave: you should see this one episode of "How I Met Your Mother." They have a hotness/craziness chart. Basically, the hotter the woman is, the crazier it's OK for her to be, yet still be OK to date. That's why Britney Spears can still get dates, but why Tara Reid is dateless.
Quizzical at December 11, 2008 6:57 PM
> Yeah, but come on
&
> That's ick.
That's not the point. We have to describe human nature as it is. Across the whole lifetime, men are attracted to fertility. We don't have to be happy about that, but we shouldn't deny it.
> What kind of guy in his 40's wouldn't
> go for a teen girl who ends every
> statement?
Gog is absolutely right about how revolting this is?
It's one thing when you hear it from a Georgia Peach, but it's inexcusable from any other American? For the past few years, I haven't been able to listen to Terry Gross on NPR, because she picked up this habit in mid-career? Maybe it's just her attempt to sound like a youthful Valley girl, but it's ridiculous to hear it from a rapidly-aging Jewish woman from Phila-fucking-delphia?
I have a theory about this? I think it started as rootless white Americans arrived in the San Fernando Valley at the rate of 20,000 per year in the 60's and 70's, and their daughters started hanging out with native Spanish speakers, also newly-arrived? After all, we're never surprised to hear this pitch pattern from someone who speaks Spanish natively?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 11, 2008 7:25 PM
Crid,
your 7:25 post annoyed me straight to bed? With a headache? Good job?
Oh ma GHOod!
Sterling at December 11, 2008 10:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612915">comment from Gog_Magog_Carpet_ReclaimersWhat kind of guy in his 40's wouldn't go for a teen girl who ends every statement? By lifting her voice? At the end? Like she's asking a question? But she's really not? I'd poke my ear out first.,/i>
There's a girl, who's young but not even hot, who sometimes writes at the café where I do, and of all the people there who have annoying quirks, I want to hit her over the head with a frying pan for 1. her little girl way of talking, and especially, for 2. how she, like, ends, like, every sentence with a question?
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2008 11:32 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1612920">comment from momof3Oh, and yeah Amy, men are attracted to younger women. But women younger than their own daughters? That's ick, and a bit pedophilic, even if she hadn't been as young as she was when they met.
It's not "pedophilic" to find a 17-year-old attractive, and attraction and what is or isn't sick isn't determined by the age of one's daughter. What's ick is being 45 and doing more than staring at a 17-year-old as she trots past you.
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2008 11:44 PM
(YOUR_AGE/2)+ 7 = Youngest acceptable age for potential partner. Thank you, Randall Munroe (the XKCD guy) for giving us an algorithm to help with these situations. So, the Non Creepy dating range for our 45 year old predator is 30-80 years of age.
Let me add that it's possible to be a bit creepy without being a pedophile, people.
Frank at December 12, 2008 5:10 AM
Sterling - Is there a point you'd like to make?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 12, 2008 6:30 AM
I'm probably coming into this discussion too late to make much difference, but I want to play devil's advocate here:
When I met my current wife, I was in my late-forties and she was 21 (or maybe 22, I don't remember). And I was still 'technically' married to my first wife, in the sense that the divorce wasn't finalized yet. And, yes, I had a daughter who was a year or two younger than my second wife.
That was 16 years and 3 kids ago. Once in a while, the age difference causes problems for us, but not very often. On average, I would say that we have been just as happy as any other couple, with pretty much the same ratios of up's and down's as anybody else.
(On the other hand, when we first met, I never lied about being in the middle of a divorce, and I wasn't supporting a brood of freeloaders either.)
joe-999 at December 12, 2008 8:40 AM
Oh, darn it? Sterling was agreeing with me? But I woke up cranky, and couldn't take his point? An apology is sincerely extended? I really shouldn't do this without coffee in the morning?
This bad habit --is-- spreading through our culture, and it needs to be extinguished as soon as possible? I heard it from some other Washington DC news source a couple weeks ago, and in a sample of Star Wars cartoon from a couple of months ago, as well?
The cartoon was forgivable? It was a teenaged girl cartoon character, after all? When a teenage girl does it, it's almost endearing, because it backhandedly acknowledges that people sometimes have difficulty making themselves understood? But there's really no reason to put up with this from figures in politics and finance?
None whatsoever.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 12, 2008 9:40 AM
Quizzical, that's hilarious! I'll have to find that on Youtube. IHMO, if there was still any doubt about the matter, Britney went over the top when she shaved her head. Now, I fully understand if a woman has lost her hair to cancer or disease, but women who voluntarily shave their heads? Urgh.
Cousin Dave at December 12, 2008 12:17 PM
I don't believe in using algebra for dating purposes? It takes all the fun out of it? (damn you Crid)
Chrissy at December 12, 2008 1:21 PM
I like totally understand?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 12, 2008 1:33 PM
My roommate and I had a blast with this one:
"Be honest: You know this guy is a bad bargain -- a married liar and one-man welfare state who's bailing out everybody but General Motors"
This is one of your best, Amy. And most profound as well :-)
Ian
Ian at December 12, 2008 2:17 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1613109">comment from IanThanks so much! (I really do appreciate when people notice.)
Amy Alkon at December 12, 2008 2:25 PM
Some of you people are over-analysing a bit. This guy is into her because, to a 40-year old, unless she's hideous, she's hot. Simple. It's not "creepy", 21-year old women tend to have good, attractive bodies that any normal older man would be attracted to. This guy is either not that interested in a "mental peer", or he already gets his "mental peer" kicks elsewhere (where he doesn't get good sex) and LW is more there for the hotty hotness stuff.
The formula is simple, if you can't get one woman that satisfies all your needs (rare/difficult), get a few women who each satisfy different needs ... e.g. the 40-something equal as friend, the 20-something for the bedroom.
Amy's right, "Men are attracted to young women", and I seriously have to wonder about any man who pretends this is not the case.
There are no "rules" about what ages are appropriate to be in relationships (20-whatever is fine if that's what you want, I don't agree with Amy there, my parents married at 20 odd ... yeah you might be wasting your best years, but it's about what you want) or what age differences are appropriate (both are adults here - so what) - each situation is unique - but yeah, this particular situation doesn't sound like the makings of happily ever after (not even so much because of the age difference 'per se' in my view - a 31-year old man could also have lied to you about major things and so on), and probably Amy's advice is valid in that context - you're only 21, enjoy your 20s a bit, find a proper guy who isn't into you (probably, I'm guessing) mainly as a piece of meat to feel young again.
DavidJ at December 12, 2008 2:56 PM
If the LW were happy (ie, all the good parts of the relationship outweighed the lying and financial issues), she would not be writing to an advice columnist.
It's hard because she loves him. When you love somebody, it's amazing how many bat-sh*t crazy, hair-brained things seem like a "good idea." Things you always thought you'd never do/put up with. Things you'd advise your friends against. I think the LW needs to break up with this guy and then find a trusted friend whom she can call at any hour every time she's thinking of getting back together who will advise her against it.
sofar at December 12, 2008 3:13 PM
"Now, I fully understand if a woman has lost her hair to cancer or disease, but women who voluntarily shave their heads? Urgh."
Oh, right. "Urgh."
Radwaste at December 12, 2008 10:12 PM
Yeah, ugh. Not sexy in Star Trek, not sexy anywhere. Just because *Persis Khambatta* was sexy, doesn't mean her shaven head was sexy - it wasn't - her sexiness just compensated for it - she still looked better with hair.
DavidJ at December 13, 2008 12:48 AM
Girls! - try stigmatize this guy all you want with labels like "creepy" and "pedophile", but bottom line, he's 45 and scoring hot juicy 21-year old tail - he must be doing something right! I think you're just jealous of the competition.
So he financially subsidizes others' dependence on him - so what, it's a mutually voluntary trade (some women don't mind being 'bought', nothing wrong with that) - and you know what they say, you can't take it with you, but you can lie in your deathbed someday with lots of warm memories of hot nights spent with a firm-bodied 21-year old! Every man's dream.
A Man at December 13, 2008 3:58 AM
No, a man, it's really not every mans dream. I fail to understand why it is that everyone who actually wants something like that, assumes that everyone else is just like them. Sorry, but we're just not all the same. Maybe it's because I had plenty of it when I was in that age range, but I am so very over wanting little girls.
I don't like immature women. I am not sexually excited by someone who can barely comprehend a fraction of my life experience. I am not sexually excited by someone who has had minimal, if any sexual encounters beyond some wrestling in the back seat with a guy who can barely get it in before he's blown it, so to speak.
And you know what? I can lie on my deathbed someday with warm memories of many hot nights with firm bodied girls twenty-one and even younger. I had quite a number of them when I was in my teens and twenties. But I will also have warm memories of hot nights, spent having unbelievably great sex with women who were a sight older, but could fuck like a little girl can only dream of. And on top of the great sex, I can also enjoy the warm memories of intellectually stimulating companionship as well.
So please don't try to lump me in with you. It's definitely not my dream and though I am not middle aged yet, I can confidently say it never will be. Sorry, but I just don't see myself competing with my children for girls their age. And you'll just have to accept that many men I know, myself included, find the notion creepy and not a little perverted.
And as loathe as I am to agree with momof3, there are plenty of firm bodied women out there, who are my age and older. After two kids and two years older than me, my partner is pretty fucking hot. And best of all, she can play my body like a fine concert pianist. They don't have to be in their thirties to be sexy either. I just went out the other night with a friend who's fifty-four and his forty-nine year old gf. She's still very firm in all the right places.
I'm sorry, but being the senior prom date, is not the dream of every middle aged guy.
DuWayne at December 13, 2008 6:34 AM
Now, I fully understand if a woman has lost her hair to cancer or disease, but women who voluntarily shave their heads? Urgh.
Yeah, ugh. Not sexy in Star Trek, not sexy anywhere.
Different strokes I guess. While hair isn't generally a detraction, I think the lack can actually be quite sexy. Maybe it's because it feeds into my exotic women fetish, but I was in love with Sinead O'connor for years (though admittedly her voice fed my lust too).....
DuWayne at December 13, 2008 6:41 AM
DuWayne: "beyond some wrestling in the back seat with a guy who can barely get it in before he's blown it" ... "but could fuck like a little girl can only dream of"
Wow ... well, if those descriptions are representative of the kind of sex you had when younger, no wonder you prefer it now. From age 18 through to now (early 30s), I've had no less than four long-term partners (ages ranged from about 19 to 26) with whom I had nothing but regular, fantastic sex ... all were not only sexy women, but intelligent and with emotional depth. I've never even had bad sex like you depict, it was good sex literally since day one with all my partners (from both sides) AND good intellectual stimulation. I guess I never realized how fortunate I've been in this particular regard, you've given me new appreciation. I guess it's because I've always been pretty emotionally mature and chose women accordingly.
DavidJ at December 13, 2008 12:14 PM
Better a young stud that lows it too soon, than some old fart who can't finish the job.
NicoleK at December 15, 2008 6:53 AM
blows, not lows
NicoleK at December 15, 2008 6:54 AM
At least the stud can go for a second and third round
Chrissy at December 15, 2008 7:52 AM
Does anyone else find it odd that he's "helping" LW pay her rent? Why would she ask him to pay her rent - more than perhaps the stretch one time emergency situation? We're heaping tons of blame on the guy (not undeserved) but what kind of 21 year old woman has a guy she's dating help her pay her rent on a regular basis? She knows he's barely managing to take her to dinner but it's okay because her rent is still being paid? She's only worried about wife, daughter and sister from a financial point of view? Just an observation.
Julia at December 15, 2008 10:30 AM
Amy, I think your advice was dead on accurate! Well Done!
Kim at December 15, 2008 9:13 PM
I know this is kinda late, but what about Hugh Hefner, who is pushing 85, and his 20 year old girlfriends? Is that acceptable? Icky? Good? Bad?
Tha Mad Hungarian at December 16, 2008 7:22 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/the-beginning-o.html#comment-1614048">comment from Tha Mad HungarianI know this is kinda late, but what about Hugh Hefner, who is pushing 85, and his 20 year old girlfriends? Is that acceptable? Icky? Good? Bad?
Hate to burst your bubble, but don't you think maybe this is more of a business arrangement than anything else? Also, he doesn't nab them at 17 and there's no illusions that he's going to marry them and give them babies. He's not lying to them either, as far as I know. These girls with him aren't gullible high school girls -- they're girls who want to be in pictures, naked, or pretty much so.
Finally, when you say his girlfriends are "20," I believe one of them is 34 at the moment. Do check your facts before commenting.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2008 8:32 AM
There is a huge difference between 17 and mid-20s.
Chrissy at December 16, 2008 8:58 AM
> Do check your facts before
> commenting.
Point taken, but let's be clear, Hefner is grotesque. Always was. It speaks to the nature of the times in which he flourished that people could imagine he was a righteous liberator. (When I was in college, he seemed like a typically superlucky American industrialist who happened to get a lot of tail; at least to a hormonal teenager, he didn't seem pathetic lizard.) Eventually, somebody noticed that he'd never written or said anything worth remembering. About thirty years ago the famously Catholic WF Buckley expressed it nicely: "A not-very-interesting man who's done some interesting things."
His fascinating daughter just announced that she'll be stepping back from leadership of the empire... She'd said she'd spent much of the last year helping to elect Obama, and decided to continue the theme of change into her own life. I dearly hope she writes a memoir. If she confined her topics to her remarkable business life, it would probably be an essential read... But if she includes personal narrative of her life as the daughter in that family, it could probably tell us important things about 20-century America.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 16, 2008 4:10 PM
Do check your facts before
commenting.
Jeez, lady, ixnay on the ondescentioncay. Whilst my comment may not have been accurate, it wasn't necessarily about the exact age, but that a guy who is over 80 does not seem like a "pathetic lizard" to women almost 60 years younger, which I find interesting. And yes, the youngest playboy playmate was 17 at the time of shooting (although, that was over 30-odd years ago).
Tha Mad Hungarian at December 17, 2008 6:50 AM
> ondescentioncay
Say that aloud
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at December 17, 2008 7:08 AM
Can you say....Drew Peterson?
Me at December 18, 2008 2:22 PM
Stories like this always make me laugh because they put to rest that whole line of baloney about "girls mature faster than boys". Yeah, sweetie, you're mature all right and found that "mature man". You've matured into the mistress/other woman to a guy who can't tell the "adult" women in his life he's not their mule.
I've got no real problem with the age issue just so long as the protagonists (older man/younger woman and vice versa) know what the score is and can deal with their issues, so I don't have to deal with it as a citizen taxpayer in family/criminal court down the road.
Yeah, ok I'm still a bit bitter from the high school/college days about the mature man line but hey, many of those gals now get miffed when I turn them down for the honor of playing Mr. knight in shining armor to save her from her problems. But hey, that just means I must be gay, right?
And if you want to talk about it from the "mature" male angle, there was a college buddy of mine. He replied to the "dude our buddy is whipped by his girl" line with, "hey, at least he's getting some". Two years later he ended knocking up a gal he'd been dating for a mere 3 months who already had 2 kids. The guy never finished his degree, didn't have a great job and now he was dad to one and step dad to two. But hey, at least he "got some". I have high hopes but I doubt his marriage lasts 10 years.
Sometimes people just need to be slapped upside the head, stooges style to get sense knocked into them. Others are hopeless from the start.
Sio at December 24, 2008 11:47 AM
If you want an example of someone failed by the self-esteem/everyone-is-equal industry, meet the LW. What sort of college degree can someone so illogical possibly earn?
smarty at January 24, 2009 7:07 AM
The common tendency to reduce relationships to the putative effects of objective factors like age is unfortunate. Odd couples, who have to overcome obstacles like patchwork families, the scorn of peers threatened by what is not conventional, and arm chair psychologists, but who have no other choice other than to follow love, are to be admired. I am married to a woman 24 years younger than myself. We don't even think about this age difference anymore.
aaron at January 31, 2009 7:10 AM
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