Depth And The Maiden
I'm a 21-year-old college student. I don't have trouble attracting guys, but I'm looking for someone who won't just like me for the outside. Online, before a guy even asks your name, he wants a picture. How do I get guys to move from "Pic Plz!" to a deeper connection? Even in person, it seems the minute guys know I have more to offer than my face or body they lose interest. When I feel a connection, the guy's looks don't matter because I know what it's like to be judged by appearance.
--Meaningful Relationship, Plz!
You might be right. It might be what they can't see in your photo that's chasing them away. Just wondering...when your picture was being taken, was that giant chip on your shoulder maybe on the ground behind you on a little leash?
Complaining that men want beautiful women is like complaining that you have to tuck cheese into your mousetrap and not a copy of the Financial Times of London. Looks are important to men. This isn't because men are shallow, disgusting pigs, but because they're hard-wired to want the women best equipped to pass on their genes. What men consider beautiful -- like youth, clear skin, long shiny hair, and an hourglass figure -- are indicators that a woman is healthy and fertile. Despite piles of data from David Buss and other evolutionary psychologists showing the male priority for female beauty to be pretty universal across time, cultures, and borders, many feminists insist looks aren't important or shouldn't be; that men only go for the hotties because they're brainwashed by the media. (As if the kind of face they put in Maybelline commercials is the only reason men aren't clamoring to see Sandra Day O'Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg curled up kittenishly on a bearskin rug in Playboy.)
You say, when you feel a connection, the guy's looks don't matter. The truth is, because you're a woman, they probably matter less. Studies consistently show women prioritize earning potential in men, but if there's one area in the looks department that matters, it's height. Women, overwhelmingly, want tall guys. How overwhelmingly? ABC News polled women to find out, lining up short men next to taller men. Reporter Lynn Sherr asked the women if there were anything that could make the shortest, a five-footer, irresistible. "Maybe the only thing you could say is that the other four are murderers," one woman replied. Another agreed, saying taller men with criminal records might've motivated her to look down for a man. Another put a finer point on that, saying she'd have considered the short man had the taller ones been described as "child molesters."
So, it seems we all have our cross to bear (some of us, while standing on a couple of phone books). Your looks are like a promotion at a car dealership, where the balloons and free hot dogs get 'em in the door, but you have to talk to the people stuffing their faces to see who qualifies as a buyer. Sure, some guys just wanna fool around with a hot bod (especially at 21), but if every guy loses interest the minute you show you've got "more to offer," it suggests the "more" you're offering is resentment, indignation, and spite. You need to accept that you can't get to the deep part without going through the "shallow" part. There are guys out there who'll be interested in what's in your heart -- you just might have to give them an evening or so to say everything that needs to be said to your cleavage.
Also, enjoy the shallow. Being considered attractive is fun. Not everything has to be deep and meaningful, and there's even room for the shallow in relationships that ARE meaningful. I'm in a long-term relatinship now, but I'm sure my boyfriend still appreciates it when I lay off the cheesecake and wear tight shirts.
MonicaP at February 25, 2009 7:05 AM
True, but just as girls need to know that guys do judge by looks, so do guys need to know that girls judge guys negatively when they make a big point of looks mattering to them. That's reality, too. I wouldn't answer a personal ad where he wrote "Pics Plz", how tacky.
NicoleK at February 25, 2009 7:05 AM
Maybe "it seems the minute guys know I have more to offer than my face or body they lose interest" really means, "the minute I open my big mouth."
Pirate Jo at February 25, 2009 7:11 AM
I did online dating for a while, and I never took it personally when men asked for pictures. I wouldn't bother with a date without a picture, either. If I'm not physically attracted to him, then I'm not going to waste his time and mine. I assumed they felt the same way.
MonicaP at February 25, 2009 7:13 AM
"Even in person, it seems the minute guys know I have more to offer than my face or body they lose interest." Well that would depend on how you present the offer. Cobay Beef Fillet minion (sp) served in a used cat litter box wouldn't be that appetizing. A nice brain and a hot body served in a coating of resentment, paranoia, or blatant superiority sours the deal. The other option is that once you feel a connection you cling to the guy like cheep toilet paper in ass hair. The fact that your bright and show it my be coincidental to them losing interest.
"When I feel a connection, the guy's looks don't matter because I know what it's like to be judged by appearance." That my dear is utter bullshit. No matter how bright a guy is I'm pretty sure you have standard below which you won't touch him. It may be as simple as you won't feel a connection with a really ugly unkept guy.
vlad at February 25, 2009 7:13 AM
Or, her idea of deep conversation might just be borrrrrrrrring!
Ok, I am a geek girl. A HUGE nerd! But I am highly sought for my social company, and I like to think it's because I frame my geeky conversation in ways that are amusing to my friends and acquaintances, and I DON'T babble about math and botany to someone I just met at the gym who seems to enjoy conversing about our kids instead.
If this girl is talking, I dunno, a steady stream of Advanced Social Theory to a guy who likes cars... or, hey, even to a guy who digs anthropology but would rather talk about the movie they just saw instead!... then this might tend to put a damper on her dating life, no matter how hot she is.
People who want to show how much they have to offer often need to offer it a bit less.
Melissa G at February 25, 2009 8:04 AM
Ok, I have to at least take the other side, if not outright disagree here. It sounds to me more like the LW is frustrated that all the men she's met are ONLY interested in looks, and are the type who are put off by a woman who has something substantial to talk about. Let's face it, there are guys out there who don't want witty conversation, they just want hot sex with the best-looking babes they can get their hands on (I'm all for both, personally).
The problem, it seems to me, is more the WHERE that she's looking. LW didn't say, but I suspect that she's using free dating sites, and my experience there indicates that there is a larger concentration of this type of guy than there would be on a site you have to pay for, because if you're paying for a match-up, you're expecting more than just meeting someone who may or may not want to have anything to do with you. On the other hand, there is a valid reason for wanting to see a picture first - even someone who is not as concerned by looks as some others has limits.
Also, at 21, there should be plenty of venues for meeting people that aren't online. That way, meeting people casually can weed out the shallow ones from the others without the need for dating first.
WayneB at February 25, 2009 8:39 AM
Uhhh....I think the more important question might not be, why are the guys I talk to so shallow, but, why are you expecting random strangers you're chatting with online not to be shallow? A "deeper connection?" Like what, giving them your e-mail address?
I' not bashing online dating-I don't think there's anything wrong with it-but I don't think gazing deeply into your monitor counts as a connection. There's probably more of a chance of having a connection with someone you have something in common with that's more than just a working modem.
hamsa at February 25, 2009 9:02 AM
"...Sandra Day O'Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg curled up kittenishly on a bearskin rug in Playboy."
Thank you very much for the imagery, Ms. Alkon!
To the LW: I don't think you can get from "Pic Plz" to deeper conversation. If the first thing the guys at the dating sites want is your picture, I doubt they'll bite at an invitation to discuss T.S. Eliot. As previous commenters have pointed out, you're probably looking in the wrong place for that kind of experience. But, as other commenters have suggested, you might be a little too serious for your own good, and it might help to lighten up a little.
old rpm daddy at February 25, 2009 9:18 AM
The Letter Writer's assumption is that she has something more to offer than just her looks. From what she's written, I doubt it. Also, I disagree with her other assumption that she's entitled to "a meaningful relationship." What about relationships without meaning? And what's the difference?
Tyler at February 25, 2009 9:22 AM
Well its obvious the LW is as shallow as the guys shes rejecting.
Why is it bad for a guy to want to know what she looks like, but its not bad for her to automatically reject everyone to poor to own a computer?
Has she tried starting up convesations with the homelss bums that live in parks near college campuses everywhere?
After all does their lack of marketable job skills, sanity, and access to soap make them incapable of haveing a 'meaniful' relationship?
lujlp at February 25, 2009 9:59 AM
The phrase "the minute guys know I have more to offer" is probably being interpreted in a way she does not intend.
To slightly alter what the Post cartoonist just found out; it doesn't matter what you say, it's what the other party hears that counts. Smart and witty can be synonyms for condescending and rude.
It's not likely that many people will tell you that that's the way you come across, either. One of the great advantages of being older is that you eventually have enough experience to realize that either the entire world is wrong, or it's you. One of them is within your power to change.
MarkD at February 25, 2009 10:12 AM
When I went through my Ayn Rand phase during my early twenties, I know I felt pretty superior to all those boring, doltish guys my age, who only cared about sitting on the couch, drinking beer, and watching sports on TV. I have no doubt they found me just a boring as I found them.
Pirate Jo at February 25, 2009 10:54 AM
"Meaningful" relationships start with the shallow. It goes from "nice ass" to "we both like jazz" to, if all goes well, him offering to cancel very expensive plane tickets when your mother goes into the ER the day before you're supposed to leave. You can't order up a deep-dish relationship.
MonicaP at February 25, 2009 12:17 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/depth-and-the-m.html#comment-1636060">comment from MonicaPPerfect, MonicaP.
Amy Alkon at February 25, 2009 12:36 PM
^Ditto.
But, honestly...
As a guy the same age as the LW, im really wondering about a couple things:
A.) What are you looking online for? I suppose it opens up another bit of possibilities, but it you walk into a public place like a bar (it doesn't have to be, just an example), you'll be able to move the process alot faster. So much of real communication is lost when all you have is text in front of you. You can shape the words to be given whatever tone you want. In person, people can project more about themselves and you'll be able to see if the guy is really right for you.
B.) Why all the hostility towards physicality? If you want a deep, emotional connection with someone, go get some really good friends. The reasons guys SLEEP with girls is because there's a physical need to do so. Hence, they ask for you picture cause they want to know if you satisfy the physical. If I saw you in person, it would take me about 10 seconds, at most, to decide if i'd consider sleeping with you or not. As for a deep, friendship type connection, well, that's a ton of coffee, me fixing your kitchen sink, you staying at the E.R with me when I decided I was a good plumber... and guess what? All those things are attained through activities other than screwing each other silly. Some guys want or will do those things, other guys will. Take your chances or don't date.
Scott at February 25, 2009 2:13 PM
I've used dating sites before, and as a rule of thumb, people who don't post their pictures are typically very unattractive. So both men and women will tend to ask for one, if simply to avoid the awkwardness of 'the reveal' - after which it's apparent that the only reason that you've lost interest in that person is because of their appearance.
Frankly these sites are a terrific way to lose your faith in humanity. It's like dating on the island of misfit toys.
Mack at February 25, 2009 9:39 PM
I'm probably one of the few people who has had a positive experience with online dating. It helped me meet a lot of people I wouldn't have met otherwise. Of course, I went into it with the same approach I used for "live" dating. I was very clear about what I wanted and what I had to offer. There was no point in pretending I was going to enjoy poetry readings and clubbing.
A lot of the people who use online dating cast their net too wide and end up disappointed. For example, I knew it wasn't going to work out with the men with children, the really short men and the one guy who wrote his profile phonetically, so I didn't bother responding to those.
I also think people have too-high expectation for online dating when they go into it. It's really just a way of meeting more people, not a magic elixer for finding the "right one."
MonicaP at February 26, 2009 7:10 AM
There are four married/LTR couples in our immediate circle who met through an on-line dating site, so you're not alone on the positive experiences MonicaP! And I wouldn't meet someone without a picture first either. Also, the guys who put up a 40 pounds ago picture didn't get past that first date either. I guess I'm just shallow.
moreta at February 26, 2009 9:18 AM
Monica, I also had a positive experience with a dating service -- not an online one (they didn't exist then), but the same idea. And you're right; you have to be upfront about what you do and don't want. Otherwise, you are wasting not only your time, but your date's time too. The way this service worked, the men made inquiries (through a code-number system), and the women could decide whether to respond or not. One woman that I inquired about had moved since she joined the service (without updating her profile), but she wanted to date anyway. She got rather angry when I told her that I wasn't interested in a long-distance relationship, even though that was in my profile.
I suspect the LW's main problem is that she wants to completely throw herself at a guy on the first date. In her case it's mentally, not physically, but the result is much the same -- it comes across as desperation. I also sense that she's the type who would try to separate her guy from his social circle, since she wants to think of the two of them as superior to their surroundings. The combination of desparation and possessiveness is a huge, huge turn-off for guys. It makes the LW seem psychotic. Guys aren't walking, they're running, because they don't want to step out the front door one morning and find that their cars have been keyed and spray-painted.
Cousin Dave at February 27, 2009 6:51 AM
Pictures tell a lot, though, more than just what you look like. The type of picture you tend to take tells something about you... mine all have big cheesey grins. Some of my friends do moody pictures with dramatic lighting... they are trying to project an alternative or artsy image. The clothes they are wearing tell you more about how they see themselves.
I'm not the most beautiful person in the world, but backin my singles days when I uploaded my pic (as quickly as I could, I don't have a lot of digital pics lying around) I got a lot more responses. Because it isn't just "Is this a pretty woman" (I'm not saying I'm ugly, I'm not being down on myself, but I'm not going to model in any mainstream mags anytime soon), it also "Does this woman look happy", "Does she look like my social peers", "Does this woman look like she likes the same things I like". Etc.
NicoleK at February 27, 2009 6:59 AM
"clamoring to see Sandra Day O'Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg curled up kittenishly on a bearskin rug in Playboy."
Together? hmmmm. Want to see more lesbian senior supreme court action? Come to my site www.rugmunchingcommies.cum.
Just joking people, please don't waste your time clicking that link ;-)
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 7:26 AM
There's some truth in what AA says, but bear in mind two things:
1. Look at all the people around you who are happily married/coupled. Are all the women beautiful? Are all the men tall? No, to say the least. So, clearly looks/height aren't the only criterion.
2. Online dating, bars, and other meat markets will definitely make you cynical on this point, because they're all about instant connection. Of course people focus on the superficial, easy characteristics there. If you want better interactions, choose a different medium.
(from someone who met her husband of 12 years on a university online discussion site, and has a mother who's happily married to a guy she met on match.com)
Calyx at February 27, 2009 7:37 AM
haha, that didn't become a link anyway; just as well.
Seriously, what I disagree with was written by Nicole:
"True, but just as girls need to know that guys do judge by looks, so do guys need to know that girls judge guys negatively when they make a big point of looks mattering to them. That's reality, too. I wouldn't answer a personal ad where he wrote "Pics Plz", how tacky."
Unless you mean that girls don't like that guys *look at OTHER girls* and judge them by their looks, I think you are deluded here.
I had a girl friend (what I mean is just a friend but could have been a girlfriend (one word)) who would spout this kind of stuff a long time back. She had big-time feminist attitudes, and I think we were both too young to really realize it. (She was a really good girl in general, however, and had one hell of a body.) I took in everything she said about this kind of thing, and it took about 10 years to realize I had believed a lot of BS.
Do you really mean, Nicole, that girls don't care to be told they look pretty, that I like your smile and your hips and rear end? That's what I was deluded about and actually acted upon for some years. Maybe you are young too, and will believe anything; that could explain it.
Oh, and the girl's letter didn't say the guy had "pics plz" in the ad, though I don't see any problem (just saving time). I assumed that she said "interested" or wrote or whatever, and the guy asked for pictures. I would never pick out anyone on the web without getting pictures quickly, because I don't want to waste people's time. You can't delude yourself forever on this whole birds and the bees thing.
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 7:42 AM
"it also "Does this woman look happy", "Does she look like my social peers", "Does this woman look like she likes the same things I like". Etc."
I'm sorry to pick on you again, NicoleK, but that's another thing that's wrong. Just go for the simplest explanation and you will usually be correct.
I can't tell whether some girl in the picture looks happy, is like my peers, etc. huh? What the guys could tell from your picture is that you weren't ugly. It's that simple! So, knowing this, they feel they would like to get to know you more (all kinds of things that the girls care about). First things first, however. Before you put the pic up, I am surprised you got any responses at all.
Things between men and women can go a lot smoother if neither party decides they must delude themselves ("Oh, he shouldn't be like that, caring about the size of my butt, so I'm gonna assume that he's not like that." Meanwhile the guy's looking at her big ass, deciding "This doesn't turn me on - why would I want to be with her?") It is what it is.
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 7:55 AM
I wonder how this 21-year-old reacts to the sight of a baby. If she's like most other women she'll be all over it, cooing and gurgling. Yet her behaviour is based entirely on the infant's appearance. She does not know anything about the child's internal state of mind before she starts going cootchy-coo and tickling it under the chin. For all she knows it could be a democrat.
How exactly is this different from men being attracted to women?
Norman at February 27, 2009 10:04 AM
I dunno, Norman, maybe she can look at the baby and see that he is compassionate, maybe a compassionate conservate and that he is a good listener, possibly into art, maybe the baroque period, and looks like he is very confident, yet sensitve, with not a hint of arrogance.
Nah!
What do you think, NicoleK?
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 10:13 AM
I dunno Dave L...my husband's pics were of him out camping and one of him doing some crazy karaoke thing in Mexico. The photos gave me a pretty good idea about what kind of personality he was likely to have. Mine were of me sitting in a tree with a rescue cockatoo and hanging out in a pub with friends. They were flattering photos of course, but I think they also showed some of my personality. If someone is only posting "professional head shots" they're probably too boring and/or insecure to date anyway!
moreta at February 27, 2009 10:16 AM
I think those pictures are great, Moreta. Nicole has this idea that the look on someone's face can give you all this (which is why I made the post about the baby thing too). It is all good and well to show yourself in your activities, even though most of the "match" websites allow you to put all this info. in.
However, when it comes down to it, if your future husband (at the time) had seen a girl who he was just plain not attracted to, even with a cocatoo, hell, a freaking bald eagle for that matter, and drinking the finest Guiness Stout (not the stuff made for import), he would never have written you. Ask him. No, wait, ask him after he has had a few brews to get the honest answer (again, not the cheap stuff for import ;-)
One more thing, a lot of times, all one can see is the headshot, whether professional or not. If you show yourself at the bar with friends, it may not be possible for the guy to see all he needs to see to make a quick decision. Yes, it is a very quick decision, maybe 5 seconds in a guy's mind, based on that picture. Like Amy says, it's the way we are made, not anything personal. BTW, this is one of the downsides of the web thing. Very possibly a guy could see a girl that he passed over on a web site, in person, and see her a number of times, and then see more in her.
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 10:52 AM
oops, one part was not clear (3rd paragraph).
What I mean is, the headshot may be the only way to do it on some websites. Why it means anyone is insecure or boring is beyond me. They may just be fitting in with the format. One can email or IM some fun pictures later. I would, however, be worried about a girl that would never send anything but headshots (or only above-the waist pics) later.
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 10:55 AM
Of course he had to be attracted -- I'm not suggesting that isn't the first factor. Just that pictures can tell you something. And as I said above about my "shallowness" it goes both ways. At the time I actually had to explain that to a guy who kept trying to chat with me. He just did nothing for me and he kept saying that if I got to know him I might like him. I finally said that I might like him, but at some point we'd want to get naked and I just couldn't see that happening with him. I think he'd been brainwashed by feminists!
moreta at February 27, 2009 11:45 AM
I had success on match.com--met my hubby on there--as well as alot of fun for the brief time I was online dating. I agree that posting a picture is the way to go right off the bat. Otherwise, you might come across a profile and think, hmmm, he sounds interesting, and then when you start chatting and pictures are exchanged, there's the possibility of that awkwardness when the photo doesn't reveal what you were imagining that person to look like. And what are you going to say, sorry, bud, I just don't find you attractive? Ouch. Better to post a few good pictures of yourself on your profile so that if someone checks it out and writes to you, you know you've already been found somewhat attractive by them (and visa versa) rather than embarrassment/rejection later on. I believe that some people look better in person than in photographs--I happen to be one of those people--and some people are the opposite, so it's still somewhat of a crap shoot until you actually meet in person, but having (RECENT!) pictures posted is a good start.
Amy--love your columns! You give my Wednesdays a whole new meaning....
Beth at February 27, 2009 11:54 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/depth-and-the-m.html#comment-1636340">comment from BethAww, thanks -- and I'd be most appreciative if you'd request them in a paper near you - the alt weekly or the features section of the daily!
Amy Alkon at February 27, 2009 12:03 PM
Beth, you brought up a good point that I forgot to mention (don't mean I didn't think about before, but I forgot now).
It's not just that it's a waste of time for a guy to not know see a girl's picture right off the bat. Also, as you say, it can avoid some hurt a little later on, when the pic arrives, or when you meet in person.
In fact, I am sure there are many case of "oh, I looked for you there, never saw you, anyway, I've gotten really busy lately, blah blah..." after showing up to meet and realizing "this won't do" then taking the coward's way out. No, I have not done this.
Dave Lincoln at February 27, 2009 1:17 PM
Amy, my post got all screwed up...it took about half what I wrote and then appended together what was left....please remove it and I'll try again.
Thanks
mike
mike at February 27, 2009 1:18 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/depth-and-the-m.html#comment-1636351">comment from mikeWill do!
Amy Alkon at February 27, 2009 1:33 PM
Only slow rats complain about the rat race. Dumpy woman complain that men are superficial and wimpy men complain that women don't want to date nice guys. Slow rats all.
el duderino at February 27, 2009 2:18 PM
I had mostly good experiences on dating sites, though I ended up my bf in person at a charity event. It sounds like the LW doesn't post ANY photos - which is usually a clear signal that someone is unattractive.
Yet, I do have a friend who is drop-dead gorgeous and wouldn't post a photo. The few guys who were nice and interested enough to write her, even so, would eventually receive photos of this ravishing young woman (also a doctor, so she's smart too). I still smile thinking how thrilled they must've been!!! What a reward for NOT being shallow.
lovelysoul at February 27, 2009 2:28 PM
> I wonder how this 21-year-old
> reacts to the sight of a baby.
> If she's like most other women
> she'll be all over it, cooing
> and gurgling
Fuck-in' Nor-man. Shee-it, dude.
You are --to date-- the only other human being who's made that comparison: "Nowadays I see it as the feminine equivalent of a construction worker's wolf whistle at a harried working woman."
As noted in too many earlier comments to cite, I think humanity has spent the last 10,000 years getting masculine nature under control. And it's not that it's under control, it's just that when a guy goes nuts with it, we know what the problem is... Whether he's a Saudi who won't let his wife drive a car or a Nebraska college sophomore who humiliates his girlfriend at parties by slobbering over other girls.
But feminine nature hasn't been identified that way... Not for it's horniness toward babymaking or even for the sometimes clumsy and shameless fondness for men with resources (howsoever accumulated).
So there's that.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at February 28, 2009 1:41 AM
I think that photos are important. take amy for example, I love her quick biting wit, the way she thinks as shown inn her colums, and shes drop dead gorgeous.
But she has the same jawline as my mother, and her teeth look exactly like my sisters.
So no matter how I feel about her personality, her physical apperence(nice as it is in every respect) would make anthing more than a freindship immpossible for me.
Attraction is a wholly subjective experiance and one seemingly innocuos physical feature can throw a wrench in the gears
lujlp at February 28, 2009 10:58 AM
What is a 21 year-old doing on a dating site? Isn't she in college or something? Meet people in person; you'll have better results.
Marie at February 28, 2009 1:56 PM
Yes - I don't get this at all. If LW is in college and looking for deep meaningful connections, why is she looking for them online? Sign up for a class in philosophy or political science (or Gender Roles in Ancient Egyptian literature, or whatever) and get to know the other students in the class. If she's taking a class on a topic that interests her, she will meet guys in that class who are interested in similar things and who would love to have profound discussions about the class materials.
Marie2 at February 28, 2009 2:47 PM
Of course women want to be attractive to their mates. But they DON'T want to think "My guy is only into me because I'm __insert physical characteristic________". I have a feature that a certain subset of men finds irresistable. I'm glad that people (esp my husband) are attracted to it. But I damn well know when people are only into me because I have this feature. And as much as I have used it to my advantage in certain situations, in dating situations it sketched me out when I knew that was the whole reason someone was talking to me. (Not that I have dating situations anymore, I'm talking about the past).
And just because you WANT women not to be sketched out because you're only into their physical feature, doesn't mean they aren't going to be sketched out. A lot of the guys here have this wishful thinking about the way women ought to think... well, that doesn't fly any more than the wishful thinking on behalf of the women.
Guys who write "Pics plz" in that lame sort of "leet speak" would not have gotten a response from me. And certainly I've been in many situations where there were no pics... I was an avid MUDder a decade or so ago. People got to know me, eventually we exchanged pics, and sometimes we met. Usually the guy "wooed" me by sending a pic of himself first, prompting me to send a pic of myself.
And are you seriously telling me that you ONLY look at physical specs in pics? If some girl who was your physical ideal posted a pic of herself hanging over some guys at a beer bash, that wouldn't affect your opinion? Or if she long hair and beads and flowing hippy clothes, that wouldn't affect your opinion, positively or negatively? Or if she was all gothed out? Or if she posted lots of scantily clad pics? Or if she was really buttoned up and had her hair pulled back in a tight bun, and was wearing pearls? You'd react the same way to all these pics? That's BS. Attraction is situational. I know that when I change my costu- er clothing, online or off, I get very different reactions from men.
I'm not saying that prettiness isn't important, which for some reason you think I have said... I haven't. I'm saying the same girl, with different pics, is going to attract different people. I'm saying pics tell you a lot, not just whether or not they are attractive.
And of course I got answers without a pic, I wrote a good ad.
NicoleK at March 1, 2009 7:22 AM
I have to ask something about the height thing.
Married now, but when I was dating, I never encountered resistance from any woman my height or taller (5'8"). In fact, these women used to love my standard cheesy come-on about how shorter men were better lovers because our brains are closer to our groins.
But any woman 5'4" or shorter was adamant about finding a guy over 6'. I could never figure this one out. Explanations?
snakeman99 at March 1, 2009 4:18 PM
Nature's way of balancing humanity?
I dunno... I'm 5 ft 2 (almost... after .5 you round up, right?) and my criteria was anyone taller than me in heels... so, 5'5, 5'6 was my minimum. I tended to attract guys who were 5'9 or so.
NicoleK at March 1, 2009 4:37 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/depth-and-the-m.html#comment-1636576">comment from snakeman99n fact, these women used to love my standard cheesy come-on about how shorter men were better lovers because our brains are closer to our groins.
Is that your line? Please let me know. I might need to borrow it for an upcoming column!
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2009 4:49 PM
I would like to copy some of your replies about shorter men vs. tall women in our Tall club of Silicon Valley newsletter. Are you okay with that if I give you a credit line?
Thank you.
Doris M. Livezey at March 1, 2009 5:44 PM
Well I don't know that I'd call it "mine," but I've been saying it since puberty, so feel free to use it.
snakeman99 at March 1, 2009 6:05 PM
I suspect that the height requirement is a status thing among women. For instance, I've had women ask me how tall I am and then get upset that I'm not 6'. I'm 5'11, but they couldn't tell the difference.
For whatever complaints women may have regarding mens' interest in their appearance, they need to acknowledge that most women judge men on similarly narrow criteria. Once they start looking for a husband, they're basically for sale to the highest bidder - provided he isn't short or from the wrong social class.
Jonas at March 1, 2009 6:47 PM
"I'm not saying that prettiness isn't important, which for some reason you think I have said... I haven't. I'm saying the same girl, with different pics, is going to attract different people. I'm saying pics tell you a lot, not just whether or not they are attractive."
You did not get my point, NicoleK. All I said is that if I can't tell what the girl looks like at all, due to no pictures available, I will not respond. I explained earlier, it is a waste of time, and also, it can result in someone getting hurt later on (can go either way).
I never said that I couldn't tell any more from the pictures than just attractiveness. But, that would require getting some pictures, as was my point. I also stated that some of the websites don't allow a whole spread of pics, so just a head/shoulders one or fairly close up is all you may get to show for the first look.
I think you are arguing against your first post, Nicole, as I was too. So, I guess we agree. ???
Dave Lincoln at March 1, 2009 6:53 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/depth-and-the-m.html#comment-1636607">comment from snakeman99Well I don't know that I'd call it "mine," but I've been saying it since puberty, so feel free to use it.
Thanks, Snake!
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2009 10:14 PM
> Sign up for a class in philosophy or
> political science (or Gender Roles in
> Ancient Egyptian literature, or whatever)
> and get to know the other students
Brilliant bluff call from Marie2. For the rest of this lifetime, I'll know how to respond to people (usually callow women) who complain about shallow young men
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at March 2, 2009 11:29 AM
I'm sorry, Dave Lincoln, it drives me crazy when people are inconsistent.
"I can't tell whether some girl in the picture looks happy, is like my peers, etc. huh? What the guys could tell from your picture is that you weren't ugly. It's that simple!" Later: "I never said that I couldn't tell any more from the pictures than just attractiveness." Well, that sure would seem to be what you were implying.
You completely misunderstood NicoleK's first comment, then went on to contradict yourself. Take some time out to work on your reading comprehension and maybe take a crack at understanding someone's point before you reply next time.
mizireni at March 2, 2009 12:10 PM
Scott: "Why all the hostility towards physicality?"
I think this might be the key here, not neutrality but *hostility* towards physicality. My guess is the part where the guys 'lose interest' is not so much when she shows her intellectual side, but when they (at any stage, and it is *bound* to happen with any straight guy soon enough) show physical interest in her and she responds by acting as though this is some behavior that is not going to be reciprocated. I don't know anyone who would want that in a partner; people want mutual attraction, and probably only someone with psychological issues would actually be interested in someone who appears to reject and be repulsed by their physical advances.
You've got to accept that any normal guy is going to have both the intellectual side and that physical side. It feels as though LW wants a relationship that has no physical side. Yawn. Who wants a lifetime of that. Or a lifetime of hearing how shallow you are for, well, being a man really.
DavidJ at March 2, 2009 6:56 PM
Correction, "by acting as though this is some behavior" -> "by acting as though this is some evil behavior"
DavidJ at March 2, 2009 6:58 PM
OK, mizireni, I'll lay it out for you.
A) Nicole says that she will judge a guy more negatively if he wants pictures right away.
B) I say, you've gotta see the pics. - I wouldn't take the time to know more until I have at least seen a picture (sorry if that hurts anyones feelings).
C) I also added about a second post of hers that I can't tell from a picture of someone's face whether they are happy/sad, active, is like my peers, etc. (this is assuming your normal headshot/posed picture.
D) Moretta adds that she was successful showing who she is by including photos that show her with her bird and out having a brew, etc.
E) I replied to Moretta that that is a good idea and I'm not arguing that you can't tell something about your possible match from that type of pic., but 2 things, 1-A guy still wants a picture to start out with to make a decision (my first point) and 2-many websites only give you space for one small picture.
F) Nicole wrote back saying "....I'm saying the same girl, with different pics, is going to attract different people. I'm saying pics tell you a lot, not just whether or not they are attractive." Sure, but I already said that. First, they gotta be attractive.
G) I wrote back (to paraphrase) hey, I already said that...
OK?
I would diagram this if I had a way to do graphics here.
Dave Lincoln at March 2, 2009 7:58 PM
When I was online I soon learned to skip anyone who had no picture. I wanted a partner who at least had no issues about posting a picture, and who was at least pleasant to look at. These were the starting points of a relationship, not the end points.
My own pictures included one of me dressed as a pirate, with a cat on my head, trying to catch some plastic bats hanging from the ceiling light. It was, as they say, a corker. I put it up because I thought it showed that I had a sense of humour, and was confident enough to be self-deprecating. That's quite a lot of information to get from a picture, and these are qualities that I believe to be attractive to women. I also put some thought into the written profile - it took me several re-writes to get rid of the "poor me" attitude and to put in something more positive.
The point is, it is a marketing exercise, but you need a good measure of self-awareness and other-awareness to make it work. Whining and complaining are not the way to go. The customer is always right, and both parties are customers.
Norman at March 3, 2009 12:24 AM
Hmmm, on the short guy thing? Short is sexy plain and simple. Interesting, Snakeman. I don't consider you short but at least you're not what I am crass enough to call a "tree". No, 6 foot plusers for me even though my mother's family even has women that tall. 5'8" is on the edge of okay. I like shorter but they, for some reason do not seem to like me. I usually seem to date guys my height of 5'6" or slightly taller when I'd love to have shorter. 5'10" would be my absolute cut-off and he'd have to be terrific personality-wise to compensate for the neck cramp factor.
Don't ever tell my daughter I said this but her ex (T's Daddy) is pretty damned good-looking though 5'2" and "petite" (meaning small-boned, slim). Don't judge a book by his cover though. He's a lot tougher than a lot of guys half a foot taller than him with bulk. I've seen him hold off one trying to shove the three of us around once on a trip when they were together. Wrestled in high school and, in his bad old days, was invited to join some street gangs (claims to us, don't know if true or not, he declined).
Amy, I think you have a point about evolution but I wonder how much psychology plays a factor too. My Dad was about 6'5" and my Mom had to be at least 5'9" and the only thing that kept her from being a battered wife was that when it came to blows, it was an even match. I've no doubt whatsover this plays into my unique attraction to short men.
As for looks, please, none of us women want to kiss a toad either.
T's Grammy at March 3, 2009 11:32 AM
I wish my fiance found me attractive, but I know it's our general age and "ready-ness" for married life that made him propose. He is about to turn 36 and is scared of dying "heir-less." I wish every day that he found me hot or even a little bit pretty. So just be glad thats the natural reaction guys give you or you could be like me, "in the 'right' place at the 'right' time." I love him but I know the bottom of the barell when I'm living in it.
darla at March 3, 2009 2:11 PM
Darla - you just broke my heart. I'm not typically an advice-giver, but please pick one of the following courses of action based on your situation: a) if you need a makeover/weight loss/haircut/exercise/new style (pick any that apply) to improve your attractiveness, please do so, or b) if you already take good care of yourself and your fiance is still not attracted to you, please leave him and find somebody else.
True story: good friend of mine has been with a mid-30s woman for a year. He doesn't have sex with her b/c he's not attracted to her b/c she's too bottom-heavy. Here is what I told him: "she's got nice hair, a good rack, and she dresses with style. Some guy out there would go wild for her and you're keeping her from him. That's fucked up."
Plus . . . uh, they aren't screwing. That sucks for everybody.
snakeman99 at March 3, 2009 9:24 PM
I'm 5'10", female, and will only date a guy my height or taller. I've tried shorter guys but I'm not attracted to them, probably because I don't like feeling like an Amazon. The guy I'm dating now is 6'5", and he's happy that I'm tall, because he doesn't like to stoop.
Darla, you can find a guy who will find you super-hot. Don't settle!
Chrissy at March 5, 2009 1:26 PM
I have to disagree to an extent that media (or whatever imagery a person experiences repeatedly) doesn't help define some of the parameters of attractiveness. While I am a believer in Amy's view that hard wiring/genes drives attraction, it is the only part? I 'suspect' there must be some image inculcation too. You see the image of the same type of person over and over and over, and that type is stated as attractive over and over and over, that will not have some affect? I admit, I don't have science to back this up. It just seems logical to me that hardwiring plus environment will be a more precise formula.
Regarding the LW, I have found the attractiveness of a woman, in a relative way, is lessened or heightened by attitude, confidence, how at ease you are (or seem), how much you project a "happy or fun mood", things of that nature. The feel of her letter suggests, to me, she might be projecting the frustration she is encountering. Relax, try and ease up, don't expect anything except to enjoy yourself. Eventually something will click with someone. Then see if that guy is at least Mr. Acceptable. And of the simplest advice there probably is, whatever your relative attractiveness, maximize it with a look/clothes that works for you. Don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
TW at March 8, 2009 3:13 AM
Snakeman99, I dont' get it either. My daughter is about 5 ft. tall and she always dates guys over 6 ft (current bf is 6'5"). I, on the other hand, am 5'5" and am happily married to a bald (incredibly sexy!) 5'7"er. On the rare occasions that I wear high heels, I just love being taller than him for a couple hours!
Elise at March 14, 2009 2:29 PM
My own personal favorite after deciding not to insist on a photo on a local site. Wasn't interested in fantasies about people who live hundreds of miles away, wanted to meet anyone who seemed interesting right away.
Had a quick email exchange with a woman who shared similar interests, had read books I admire, who had published some like me. Excellent phone call thereafter, kept me amused and interested for an hour.
That weekend I picked her up. She buzzed me in and I was confronted by someone who weighed well over 300 lbs, was sightless, and insisted on going to a restaurant no further than four blocks from her apartment.
The number of even those restaurants was severely restricted as she required quite rationally a management who could handle these and other disabilities. I did everything I could to make the evening pleasant for her. Dropping her off I made a point of treating her honestly: great evening, such interesting conversation, no chance. Looking back, she never deceived me. My fault for not requesting "Pix pls".
madprof44 at April 9, 2009 9:49 AM
It's appropriate time to make some plans for the future and it is time to be happy. I have read this post and if I could I wish to suggest you some interesting things or suggestions. Perhaps you could write next articles referring to this article. I desire to read even more things about it!
Lucienne Jarding at January 18, 2011 3:08 AM
thanks !! very helpful post!
sbo at March 3, 2011 4:15 PM
Thank you for this goal website. That is just about all I'm able to point out
Bruno Fairclough at September 7, 2011 9:31 AM
At this time it looks like Drupal is the top blogging platform out there right now. (from what I've read) Is that what you're using on your blog?
Selena Hermsen at October 14, 2011 5:19 AM
Excellent read, I just passed this onto a friend who was doing some research on that. And he just bought me lunch since I found it for him smile Thus let me rephrase that: Thank you for lunch! "It is impossible to underrate human intelligence--beginning with one's own." by Henry Adams.
Mackenzie at October 15, 2011 5:30 PM
It is the best time to produce some strategies for the future and it's time to be happy. I have read this article and if I could I wish to suggest you some interesting things or suggestions. Maybe you could write next posts mentioning to this article. I wish to read even more things about it! Free Online Poker
Free Online Poker at October 16, 2011 5:53 PM
I don’t even know how I ended up here, but I thought this article was great. I don't know who you are but certainly you're going to a famous blogger if you are not already ;) Many thanks! best affiliate programs
best affiliate programs at October 17, 2011 4:24 AM
I got what you intend, thanks for putting up. Woh I'm glad to locate this internet site by way of google.
Big Fat Marketing at October 31, 2011 5:46 PM
Leave a comment