Bed Lieutenant
I'm 34; my husband of a year is 28. We didn't live together or have sex before marrying because I have a child and didn't feel this was appropriate behavior to model. We did discuss sex to figure out whether we'd be sexually compatible. He was fairly inexperienced, but sex is now all he wants and talks about, and he's constantly groping me. I enjoy sex and am fine having it every other day, but it's starting to seem like the only way he can relate to me. I'd appreciate occasionally hearing I look nice without him adding that he'd like to have sex with me right then and there. Yesterday, I even feigned illness so he'd give me a break. He said he hoped I'd feel better soon -- then blurted out what he'd do to me when I did! No matter how gently I ask him to back off a bit, he gets hurt and says he doesn't understand what he's doing wrong. He's very good to me, tries to make me happy, and even sits through the ballet with me, although I'm sure he loathes it. I'd just like to give him a hug without it turning into sex.
--Getting Way Too Lucky
The guy really knows how to romance a woman -- the kind you pull out of a bag and inflate.
Good thing you two "discussed" sex before signing a contract to spend the rest of your lives together: "Orgasms? All for 'em!" "Wow...me, too!" Consider yourself lucky that you aren't even more sexually incompatible. As for your reason for abstaining, that sex before marriage isn't "appropriate behavior to model" for your kid, come on. What happens in Motel 6 stays in Motel 6 -- providing you don't sit Junior down for a little chat about your sex life: "Mommy always stops at third base so you won't drop out of school and end up turning tricks for crack."
It seems your husband's never had to finesse sex out of a woman and sees no reason to start trying now. This isn't to say he's a bad guy. After all, he goes to the ballet with you, which suggests he's either trying really hard to please or he never quite recovered from that head injury. Like many men, he makes the mistake of only hugging, kissing, and touching when he wants some. But, like many women, you need to feel connected emotionally to feel good about going at it. No, you two didn't have sex before marriage, but you're not likely to continue having it long afterward if he keeps confusing seduction with feeling up livestock at auction -- grabbing your udders to see if you're a good milker.
It's up to you to get through to him. But, don't wait until a moment of conflict, like when you get sick and he feels bad, then makes you feel worse when he expresses it: "Oh, please don't die and leave me here all horny." Take him out to dinner -- someplace with a big long table between you. Don't criticize him; as you've seen, it's a poor motivator for him and probably most men. Praise him for all the ways he's great in bed, and tell him the little things he could do to turn you on even more. Keep telling him until he finally gets it -- that when you daydream about the way he makes you feel, it's best that it doesn't have a whole lot in common with walking past a construction site in a really short skirt on your way to be groped on the subway.
Good advice, Amy. Just one thing to add.
Subtle hints won't work. Obvious hints won't work. Blantant hints won't work. No manner of indirect communication will work.
The LW is going to have to come right out and SAY WHAT SHE MEANS.
Or he's not going to get it.
Lamont
Lamont Cranston at August 11, 2009 7:32 PM
I'm afraid I agree with Lamont, and not with Amy. Speaking for myself, and I expect for most guys: we don't do hints. Women can talk circles around something all day - and we guys are not going to understand.
She is going to have to explain clearly. If he gets all hurt by it, then he gets all hurt. Maybe recommend a book for him as well?
bradley13 at August 11, 2009 10:14 PM
So the woman marrys a guy 6 ys younger and practically a virgin, if not a lying virgin.
What did she expect? Seriously? The first time a 20yr old is in a situation that was sold to him as non stop sex, as a side note guys really need to read the fine print on what marrige does to a woman libedo.
No sex before marriage, and it sounds like she'd be fine with no sex durring the marrige, do I smell the good old tradition of "sex is dirty and children are your punishment" overtones of religion in that moralistic crap of 'setting a good example'?
If he's, pawing her too much she needs to say so, but she also needs to understand that men are physial and therefore express their emotions physically, she also needs to realize that inexperianced as he is he will soner or later learn how to read her if she continues down the path of lying to him to get out of sex.
I can understand if your sick, really tired or just too stressed out for it, but the people out there having bad sex that they veiw as a chore to be avoided only have themselves to blame, unless its the first time with a new partner which is understandable.
It sound alot like this guys inexperince is translating into a boring to mildly entertaining waste of time for her.
Because I doubt she'd write in to complain about mindblowing non stop orgasms that cause her to forget her own name.
As for the ballet? I wouldnt mind seeing something composed by Tchaikovsky
lujlp at August 11, 2009 11:36 PM
Lujlp, I dunno. Men and women have different needs, as far as sex goes. A horny 20-something guy will, circumstances permitting, happily have sex twice daily, non-stop. I haven't met many (any?) women where this is true. On top of that, an inexperience, horny guy is probably of the "wham-bam-thank-you-maam" type, which most women certainly aren't.
I don't get the impression that the woman here is a prude. She just needs to acquaint him with the differences in male and female sexuality. The longer she waits, the more painful the process will be.
bradley13 at August 12, 2009 2:15 AM
The religious thing was more about her not wanting to have sex before marrige.
lujlp at August 12, 2009 2:38 AM
" We didn't live together or have sex before marrying because I have a child and didn't feel this was appropriate behavior to model."
was what she said, not that it was religion.
"What did she expect? Seriously? The first time a 20yr old is in a situation that was sold to him as non stop sex, as a side note guys really need to read the fine print on what marrige does to a woman libedo."
I agree with the first part of this :-D....no restrictions on sex, and he's probably been wanting her for a long time. He'll slow down eventually, enjoy it while it lasts? Does marriage do something to women's libido? I hear a lot of jokes about wedding cake being the best form of birth control, but....why?
I agree that she needs to talk about all the touching. Some people are comfortable being touched all the time, some are not. Mothers of small children often talk of feeling 'touched out', LW also sounds like it's too much, like he's blanketing her. If they get that issue over with, her feelings about sex may get better too.
crella at August 12, 2009 3:31 AM
After all, he goes to the ballet with you, which suggests he's either trying really hard to please or he never quite recovered from that head injury.
Same thought I had, but you worded yours much better :)
John Tagliaferro at August 12, 2009 5:22 AM
Poor guy. He didn't see this coming, but by the second sentence into this letter, how many of you guys did?
This young guy gets married and completely misses out on that whole "I need you so bad right now" stage where both parties are awash in lust-producing endorphins and hormones. Instead he gets a mom who has other priorities right now while he is in that euphoric state, all by himself.
That initial stage where the two people are really wrapped up in one another helps bond people a bit, from what I can tell, and may help get them through the tougher later years when kids are the woman's main focus.
That guy went right into the tougher later years, when the woman simply has priorities other than her husband.
Spartee at August 12, 2009 6:13 AM
Chronologically he is 28 but emotionally a lot more immature than that.
Because of his 'inexperience' he may think sex is supposed to be like the porn he has watched. I mean it works in the movies.
It sounds like he treats her like a sex object very similar to pornography.
He also may be "inexperienced" because of the way he approached or treated women.
My guess is he probably has other issues and you may have looked at him as a "fixer-upper" where you could turn this younger man into the man you want him to be. Guess that is not working out for you.
David M. at August 12, 2009 6:19 AM
David, I think more than one party is to blame here. Let me illustrate with a bit of rewriting done in fun.
"Chronologically [she] is [34] but emotionally a lot more immature than that.
Because of [her inability to understand men] [she] may think sex is supposed to be like the [Oxygen Channel romance movies] [she] has watched. I mean [those men *know* what a woman feels without having to be told].
It sounds like [she] treats [him] like a [companionship object very similar to chick lit, with sex on her terms and schedule, without thinking about where his head and heart are at: in the first throes of a love affair].
[She] also may be [unable to understand men] because of the way [she] approached or treated [men] in the past.
My guess is [she] probably has other issues and [she] may have looked at him as a [financial aid source] where [she] could turn this [naive, inexperienced but solvent] younger man into the [comfortable, supportive spouse a woman approaching middle age would] want him to be. Guess that is not working out for [her or him]."
My guess is he wanted a lover, and is frustrated because she is not acting how people do when they get a new lover. She sounds like she expected a spouse with a middle-aged sex drive, and is frustrated because he a twenty-something guy who found a new lover.
No one is evil or stupid here. (Well, maybe stupid.) But the problem does not sound like it is his stupidity alone. He is acting like men and women do when they are young and have brand spanking new lover. She is acting like a woman who has been married a while and is focused on her kids. (Note how the kids' presence wholly determined her sexual decisions even before marriage? Telling. Very telling.) These people sound like they are in different places, and wagging a finger at the guy for his lust (bad man! you are too horny! Bad man!) is like blaming her for focusing on her kids' (bad woman! not horny enough! bad woman!).
Spartee at August 12, 2009 7:00 AM
My guess is he probably has other issues and you may have looked at him as a "fixer-upper" where you could turn this younger man into the man you want him to be.
Oooo, good call, DavidM. I was thinking that myself. I would also think that a younger man with an older woman would work better if there were no children involved. At least at first. o.O
Flynne at August 12, 2009 7:02 AM
Man, I wish I had her problem. I would have sex 5 times a day if I could, but my SO is more of a 3x a week guy. Its incredibly frustrating.
amber at August 12, 2009 7:04 AM
This couple strikes me as extremely sexually incompatible. Dude should be banging 20 year olds who don't mind a lot of mediocre energetic sex, not a 34 year old mom who knows what good sex is and now has other priorities. The fact that he's 28 years old and still sexually inexperienced sends up huge red flags to me. Even leaving alone the implication that he hasn't been able to find anyone to have casual sex with him (is he socially awkward? no game?) this must mean that he hasn't been in any serious relationships lasting long enough to get some practice at sex. Going from no serious relationships to marrying an older woman with a kid seems like a hugggeee leap.
As far as abstaining from sex because there's a kid around, well, at least that's better than the mom who sneaks out of her kid's baseball game to bang some guy, or even worse, someone who has sex with the kid in earshot. But I bet she's kicking herself now for that decision. That's why I think you should always test drive a car before buying it.
Shannon at August 12, 2009 7:13 AM
"Man, I wish I had her problem. I would have sex 5 times a day if I could, but my SO is more of a 3x a week guy. Its incredibly frustrating."
I don't think her problem is the quantity, but the quality. As lujlp pointed out-and I agree-she wouldn't be complaining if the sex was really good.
Shannon at August 12, 2009 7:17 AM
What makes you assume he is no good at sex? She doesn't say that.
And what makes you think she knows what good sex is? Good sex is very much a eye of the beholder circumstance. She may like to stare at the ceiling fan and count rotations outloud, thinking her mere presence is all the sexy she needs to produce for the occasion. Or she may like stilletos, cattle prods and a team of midgets involved in the action. Who knows? Not us.
So laying it on him like that seems to assume facts not given.
The red flag to me is a woman who abstains from sex with the man she loves and claims it is "for the children". Uh oh...those kids are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Spartee at August 12, 2009 7:34 AM
"I don't think her problem is the quantity, but the quality."
I agree. I am betting there are two problems here. The first is that the guy, as Amy put it, approaches her like she's an inflatable doll. That's a huge, huge turn-off for a woman. I dated a guy like LW's husband years ago, for a couple of months, and had to dump him. He was a nice guy, but his approach was absolutely killing my sex drive. Although I was pretty blunt, nothing I said seemed to get him to temper his approach. We were just speaking different languages. I think that might be the case with LW. Too bad she had to marry him before figuring it out.
The second is that I get the feeling that she was never particularly attracted to him to begin with. If she could hold off on sex and just "discuss" it, how big was the attraction to begin with? It's not like she was holding off for religious reasons.
Gail at August 12, 2009 8:13 AM
I can't imagine marrying someone- or even being in a long-term relationship with someone- without having sex. I wonder, was she married to her child's father? How long did she date New Husband before they got married? Did they meet at a church singles group or something? (I know, the letter doesn't mention church, but does anyone know a guy who ISN'T religious who would wait to have sex with Single Mommy until they were married?)
ahw at August 12, 2009 8:21 AM
"but does anyone know a buy who ISN'T religious who would wait to have sex with Single mommy until they were married?"
This is funny to me because my husband's best friend is currently dating a single, younger, asian lady (his fantasy girl) with a child in the homeland who has made it clear there will be no sex until she is married. I hope he won't let it go that way, but he seems willing to try waiting her out for a while anyway. She's claiming religion and he's raised Catholic so being respectful (not that he's ever adhered to any of his Catholicism before!) I claim citizenship papers and sponsoring to bring the family over...but tomato, tomahto.
moreta at August 12, 2009 8:56 AM
It's interesting how certain women here are jumping on this guy and assuming facts not in evidence.
But they're blind to the implications of the LW's claims - coming from a middle aged mother who doesn't want to have sex before marriage.
He was fairly inexperienced, but sex is now all he wants and talks about, and he's constantly groping me.
Now do you think that it's realistic that he's actually constantly groping her, and that the only thing that he ever talks about is sex?
That's it?!? That's all he ever does when they're together?
And then he says this sort of thing every time?
I'd appreciate occasionally hearing I look nice without him adding that he'd like to have sex with me right then and there.
Wow! Every time he says something flattering, he follows it up with - I want to fuck you right here, right now!
Does that seem likely? - doesn't it seem a little exaggerated?
A reasonable reading of her complaint is that she'd not that into sex and is uncomfortable being the object of her new husband's sexual desires.
This is something that a lot of men face with their wives, especially after they've had kids. But this idiot obviously didn't get the memo and decided to jump right into the phase of marriage that men 10 years older than himself have to deal with.
Maybe this guy is coming on too heavy, and clumsily. But maybe he's reacting to her behavior as well and overcompansating.
Marko at August 12, 2009 9:14 AM
Reading between the lines, I agree that the problem is, she doesn't like sex, and does not think of him in sexual terms. I think it's because she has the responsibility of the kid and that's her priority. I feel sorry for the guy, and I don't think the marriage is going to last too long. They're not sexually compatible, and that's something that you should find out before marriage, by having a lot of sex, and talking about it with each other.
Chrissy at August 12, 2009 9:41 AM
She may well like sex with someone else, but it's quite clear she doesn't like it with him.
I do feel sorry for the guy, although I think they both should have seen this coming during the courtship. And I feel bad for the kid who is going to have his/her life unnecessarily disrupted because mom and stepdad didn't figure all this out before they got married.
Gail at August 12, 2009 10:29 AM
Uh, folks? Isn't it possible they just have different sex drives? Happens, you know. Maybe she's not lying when she says she'd be happy to have sex every other day, and you know what? That's actually pretty often; a whole lot of people are happy with three-to-four-times-a-week. Yeah, he's young, but he's not 19. I remember dating 28 year olds, and not all of them wanted sex three times a day.
Dana at August 12, 2009 10:32 AM
I don't mind sex even less than once per week, as long as it's high quality. Current gal and I only get to see around once per week and all of our time is quality, fun time. We do the chichat inbetween live encounters.
The guy from this letter sounds like the characters I invent, both male and female, but I make them compatable. Easier to do in fiction than in reality.
John Tagliaferro at August 12, 2009 11:34 AM
Posted by: Spartee at August 12, 2009 7:00 AM
David, I think more than one party is to blame here. Let me illustrate with a bit of rewriting done in fun.
===========================
True! LOL.
David M. at August 12, 2009 12:08 PM
This seems to be a pretty common arrangement - 30 something single mom w/ immature 20 something guy.
Maurice at August 12, 2009 12:19 PM
"Uh, folks? Isn't it possible they just have different sex drives? Happens, you know."
True, Dana, it's possible. But I'm going a little on LW's tone. She tosses in a throwaway line on how she "enjoys sex". But there's nothing in there that indicates that she does (or ever did) enjoy sex with *him.* She's "fine" with having it every other day, but doesn't want to be "constantly groped". Oh, the enthusiasm.
And I think that the fact there was no sex in the courtship is a red flag that there wasn't much attraction. Her alleged reason for it doesn't hold water -- it's easy enough to get away and have a bit of nookie now and then without the kid knowing! If you're hot for each other and don't have a religious reason for abstaining before marriage, then generally speaking, nowadays, you don't. The guy probably would have seen it this way too, except that according to LW, he's not very experienced. Thus he missed the red flag, and to compound the problem, he has 28 years of built-up horniness to get out.
Yeah, I'm reading into it a bit. But I think there's some evidence for my theory.
Gail at August 12, 2009 12:22 PM
I have little to no empathy for a woman in her 30s who chooses to purposely abstain from something as important as sex when choosing a mate.
She's a fool, and she deserves what she got.
razor at August 12, 2009 12:55 PM
This seems to be a pretty common arrangement - 30 something single mom w/ immature 20 something guy.
Posted by: Maurice at August 12, 2009 12:19 PM
========================
I have noticed this on match.com lately, or as Amy calls it match.con.
Many 40 something womens age preferences are often below their own age.
A common double standard in our society is for women to criticize an older guy for dating a youger woman but it's "you go girl" if a woman dates a younger man.
They have even coined the popular term cougar for it.
David M. at August 12, 2009 1:46 PM
David M.
--
"A common double standard in our society
is for women to criticize an older guy
for dating a youger woman but it's "you
go girl" if a woman dates a younger man."
Huh?? What planet are you on? From what I've seen, older women who date much younger men get ridiculed. The (rather sneering) assumption is that neither the man nor the woman could possibly be interested in anything serious -- the woman's just after sex and the man is only is going for the older woman because the 20 year old women aren't interested or aren't rich enough, or want more out of a relationship than he's willing to give. Not to mention, I barely know of any 40 something women who have gone for men in their 20s, even for a one night stand. We (allow me to date myself) generally want men close to our own social level and experience.
On the other hand, I know tons of 40 something men going after 20-something women. All of their friends cheer them on, and most people assume that most 40 something men would date women in their 20s if they could.
And in the movies and TV media, from Cary Grant (age 50 something) and Grace Kelly (age 25) in "To Catch a Thief" right on down to Sean Connery and Harrison Ford, you see much older men with much younger women so often you don't even think twice about it. Older women with younger men? Well, there's the reality TV show "The Cougar". And then there's . . . um . . . well, I guess there's that one woman dating the lawn boy on Desperate Housewives. And hmmmm, Samantha on Sex in the City. And, um . . . I think that's it. And there's a comic element to all of those portrayals.
Everyone talks about Demi Moore and Ashton Whatsisface like their age difference is a big deal. No one thinks twice about the age difference between, say, Tom Cruise and Katie Whozit. You have to get to a 30 or 40 year age difference before anyone raises an eyebrow.
Gail at August 12, 2009 2:28 PM
At the risk of opening myself up for personal attack, I am the original letter writer and a frequent reader of the column and Amy's blog.
The letter, as it appears in Amy's column, is vastly edited in content (understandably) from what I originally wrote to her and our correspondence from there.
For the record, although I don't think I explained it in any of my correspondence with Amy--after having conceived while on the pill and despite using back-up protection, I felt that it was simply too risky to have sex prior to being married. One "oops" pregnancy can be dealt with, two would have been a lot harder to accept both personally and financially. I was trying to do the responsible thing by both avoiding pregnancy within the means available to me (i.e., methods I can use safely due to allergies/medical concerns) and modeling values that are an integral part of our religious background. My, now, ex-husband did not take at all kindly to the surprise pregnancy and it was shortly thereafter I found out he was seeing another woman. I would hope that some of you would be able to understand why I was not willing to take such a risk again.
I am far from viewing sex as "bad" and a direct quote from my letter to Amy is as follows:
"Don't get me wrong--I enjoy having sex and my husband is a fantastic lover despite his inexperience; but he never lets up! I am fine with having sex every day, but it seems the only way my husband can relate to me since our wedding is sexually."
The fact that my husband is vastly more inexperienced than I am is simply because he has adhered to the tenents of our faith better than I have, not because he is immature but simply because he is, as some of you pointed out, enjoying the sexual freedom marriage has given him.
Nor did I pick my husband because he sounded like "fixer-upper" or a solvent stand-in for a biological father. Marriage rarely improves anyone and attempting to do so only to change a person (or for that matter, expecting them to never change either) lends itself to heartbreak and disappointment every time. I was not dating anyone, nor even trying/expecting to, when we were introduced by his parents who were well aware I was a single Mom. His family has known my family for generations. We dated well over two years before becoming engaged, enrolled in the counseling required by our faith, and even had discussions with a private therapist for over nine months prior to our wedding. Every subject was thoroughly discussed prior to our getting married--we only chose to abstain from the actual practice of it.
Having read the blog (and commentary) for a while now, I expected some of you to be critical--but even still, I am very shocked at the lengths some of you went to be so disparaging and frankly, cruel. I realize not "all" of the facts were contained in the column, but given the way I have seen readers jump all over parents who put their dating and sex lives above the priorities of their children or people who choose not to practice responsible reproduction, I would have hoped for some reservation of judgement.
For the record, we went back to the therapist we saw prior to our marriage, picked up some tips on communicating our needs better, and are very happy.
Katherine at August 12, 2009 2:51 PM
David M.
--
"A common double standard in our society
is for women to criticize an older guy
for dating a youger woman but it's "you
go girl" if a woman dates a younger man."
Huh?? What planet are you on?
Posted by: Gail at August 12, 2009 2:28 PM
================
I'm on the planet where Sex in the City was a huge hit for mostly women. Oh! you mentioned that.
Uh, the planet that has a show called The Cougar. Oh! you mentioned that.
I'm on the planet that has made Desperate Houswives a huge hit. Oh darn you mentioned that.
I'm on the planet where I can't tell you how many times I've seen the media gush over Demi Moore being with the much younger Ashton Kutcher. Darn it! You mentioned that one too.
The planet where a week didn't go by where I didn't see something mentioned about Cameron Diaz dating a younger Justin Timberlake until they stopped seeing each other.
Oh and the fact that I mentioned seeing several women on Match.com listing qualifications for younger men.
Silly me Gail.
==================
Gail again " From what I've seen, older women who date much younger men get ridiculed."
David M.-No examples???? Surely you can provide examples if you took the effort to try and make me look foolish by saying "What planet are you on?" I await your examples of older women being ridiculed for dating youger men.
Unless this was just an attempt to ridcule me?
David M. at August 12, 2009 3:18 PM
Katherine I think that it would have been easier for people to understand where you and your husband are coming from if you'd explained your religious commitments.
Don't take what's written here too personally.
Maurice at August 12, 2009 3:54 PM
"Katherine I think that it would have been easier for people to understand where you and your husband are coming from if you'd explained your religious commitments."
Agreed and I did explain the matter to Amy when I sent her a reply--which doesn't appear in this version. As I said though, does no one realize that the letters that appear here have to be edited for content and length?
"Don't take what's written here too personally."
Also agreed; but it's very hard not to do so when your letter appears in a very limited form and it's written that basically an idiotic opportunistic prude and a bad mother to boot--especially for someone like myself who takes great pride in being not only a good mother but an amazing wife.
Katherine at August 12, 2009 4:13 PM
"I await your examples of older women being ridiculed for dating youger men."
Oh, dear, David M. Never present me with a challenge like this. It's like freaking catnip to me.
For one thing, Demi and Cameron both get/got a lot of shit for dating much younger men. Go on web sites discussing their relationship and you'll find tons of comments talking about what old bags they are, and telling Justin and Ashton to get some cute chicks their own age.
But see, the thing is, there just AREN'T that many much older women/younger man combos to talk about, which is why those two got so much attention. Just how many other MUCH older women/much younger men pairings can you come up with other than Demi's and Cameron's? By the way, when I say big age difference, I'm talking a difference of at least 15 years, not 5 years. And how many of them weren't the butts of jokes for doing it?
Actually, wait just a minute! Come to think of it, there was only a 9 year difference between Cameron and Justin. That's less than the 12 year age difference between Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie! But -- no one really thinks of him as being much older than her, do they?
As far as men who have dated or married much younger women -- good lord, who could possibly list them all? Woody Allen, Michael Douglas, Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise, Harrison Ford, Cary Grant, Tony Randall, Tony Curtis, Rod Stewart, Lance Armstrong, Kevin Kostner, Hugh Hefner, Larry King, James Woods, Clint Eastwood, Donald Trump, Bruce Willis, Humphrey Bogart, Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, Mike Todd, Charles Bronson, Fred Astaire, J. Howard Marshall II, Pablo Picasso, J.D. Salinger, Jerry Lee Lewis, Patrick Stewart, Billy Joel, Eric Clapton, Ed McMahon, John Derek, Frank Sinatra, George Hamilton, William Shatner, Aristotle Onasis, Warren Beatty, Don Johnson, Nicholas Cage, Jerry Seinfeld, Grover Cleveland, Bing Crosby . . . And I could go on! And on!
The thing is, no one thinks most of those relationships are a big deal. Not like Demi/Ashton and Cameron/Justin. Even when the disparity in ages is much greater than poor Cameron's 9 years or Demi's 15 years.
TV and movies -- OK, we've come up with three shows featuring older women and younger men. Let's add the movie The Graduate in there. That makes four. And in fact, I'm sure there are others, though not nearly as many as there are with older men/young women. But the thing is, every single one of these situations is portrayed not as a "normal" relationship, but as a freaky boy-toy situation. Can you come up with one movie with a 15 year plus age difference where it was portrayed as simply a relationship, like it is with Cary Grant or Jack Nicholson or Harrison Ford or Woody Allen? Where the age difference wasn't THE definitive thing about the relationship? I'll betcha you can't.
Let's see how many movies we can come up with where there's a much older man and a much younger woman. I've mentioned "To Catch a Thief" (Do people even think about Grant being much older than Kelly in that movie?) Pretty Woman (the issue is that she's a prostitute, not that she's half his age). Oh, and Runaway Bride, As Good As it Gets, Manhattan (actually, all Woody Allen movies), Lost in Translation, Shopgirl, Last Tango in Paris, Charade, To Have and Have Not, Atlantic City, The Big Sleep, Casablanca, The Misfits, Taxi Driver, Sabrina, Stealing Beauty, Gigi, Funny Face, American Beauty, Blame It On Rio, Jane Eyre, Emma, Girl with a Pearl Earring, The Sound of Music, Network, Rebecca . . . But wait! I'm just getting started!
Sure, in some of these, the age difference is problematic (say, in Lolita), but for the most part it's more like To Catch a Thief. No one even notices.
Moreover, older man/younger woman is generally portrayed as just plain normal.
And don't make me laugh with Match.com! MOST of the men are seeking younger women. Very, very few consider dating women more than a couple of years older than them. That's just considered normal, though. Many women, on the other hand, are willing to consider much older men. Comparatively few of the women are looking for younger men.
Yes, I admit it, I am ridiculing you. But you're being a bit silly.
Gail at August 12, 2009 4:25 PM
Katherine,
For what it's worth, my own comments were based on the edited version of your letter. I apologize for jumping to conclusions -- I would have come to a different conclusion if I'd seen the "fantastic lover" comment and known about the religious issue. Now that you've elaborated, it sounds like you and your husband just have different sex drives, and need to talk about it. I've been there, and that's hard to do.
I sincerely wish you the best in your marriage.
Gail at August 12, 2009 4:41 PM
Katherine,
Thank you for adding the info. If you accept input from youngins, I think you might just need to talk to him more.
Suki at August 12, 2009 5:34 PM
I like it when the LWs join the discussion. :)
I believe it was Gail who already compared this situation to "speaking different languages."
And I belive it was Bill Maher who said something like "Your fantasies bore me, mine disgust you" (couldn't find the exact quote.
LW's husband sounds a bit like my ex boyfriend (whom I was with for over 4 years). He is a phenomenal smart, attractive, loving, supportive guy. But the sex? His approaches made me either shudder or laugh. In turn, my preferences did not turn him on at all. I was very specific with what I wanted, and he tried, but it was obvious he didn't enjoy it at all. Nothing wrong with him or me. We were just sexually imcompatible. You can work and work and work at it. But, if enjoying sex is "work," well...
I am now with someone I'm MUCH more compatible with, and it makes such a huge difference--when two people are turned on by the same things, it's magical...and rare.
Now, to be fair, my beliefs do not preclude sex before marriage. And clearly the LW couldn't try a few guys first (for good reason, which she explains very clearly). But, at the end of the day she's with someone she loves and who loves her--and they are both good to each other and enjoy being together.
sofar at August 12, 2009 6:59 PM
My ex-husband used to come up behind me, grab my breasts and say, "Hey, baby, wanna wrestle?"
God, how I don't miss him at all.
MonicaP at August 12, 2009 8:11 PM
It seems like monogamy is barely considered an option. I think there are a lot of reasons to at least consider it. In my generation, one of out four people have stds, which means casual sex is similar to playing russian roulette. Except rather than only risking an untimely death, they are also risking a long life of nasty sores and worts in unmentionable places and the odd cottage cheese-like discharge.
The only disadvantage that came to mind from waiting is marrying someone and then finding out there is no chemistry. But the thing is (feel free to correct me if you know from experience) but it seems like people can tell whether there's attraction before they've had sex. If when your fingers brush against someone's finger's it feels like there are electrical sparks passing between you, then it stands to reason that there would be sparks between other parts of the body as well.
The antagonism that people who have chosen multiple partners in their lifetime feel towards those who have chosen only one could be a backlash against traditional religions that condemn people for extra-marital sex. It is really stupid the way certain people in my church act around the unwed mothers, refusing to attend their baby showers. My basic philosophy is to do what works for me and let other people's private business be their private business.
Lily at August 13, 2009 12:49 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/08/bed-lieutenant.html#comment-1662490">comment from LilyIn my generation, one of out four people have stds, which means casual sex is similar to playing russian roulette.
You could also choke on a breadcrust at lunch, get mugged walking back to work afterward, or get rear-ended and die instantly (or be maimed) in your car on the way home. Do you not eat, not leave for lunch, or not leave the house at all?
PS There may be a successful Herpes med out of LSU.
Amy Alkon at August 13, 2009 1:39 AM
Wrong advice Amy! The advice should be to the guy. They are sexually incompatible and he should GET OUT NOW before she has a child with him and he is stuck for 18 years.
He is taking care of her and her child from another marriage. He is a horny young guy and she is playing games with him so he won't leave. Her lack of clarity is attempted manipulation.
Right or wrong she clearly doesn’t respect him and regards him as a nuisance. He doesn’t realize that there ARE women (like me) out there who would love to have sex every day.
Nancy at August 13, 2009 4:50 AM
"But the thing is (feel free to correct me if you know from experience) but it seems like people can tell whether there's attraction before they've had sex."
This is very true. I love it when people assume that because we chose not to have sex prior to our wedding that it was easy for us. It wasn't easy at all.
In fact, it was extremely difficult. There were many times when I would struggle with changing my mind about waiting, particularly after we were engaged and the wedding was so close. If we had zero chemistry and no attraction, I would have known while we were dating.
To be perfectly frank, what worked for us in the end was my being able to come to a place where I felt comfortable initiating sex (which my ex-husband hated, so I felt uncomfortable doing so) and my now husband realizing that not all the pressure to initiate lay on him.
I would like to say thanks for those of you that read my extended explanation and changed your opinion of me. It is appreciated.
Katherine at August 13, 2009 7:46 AM
"I await your examples of older women being ridiculed for dating youger men."
Oh, dear, David M. Never present me with a challenge like this. It's like freaking catnip to me.
For one thing, Demi and Cameron both get/got a lot of shit for dating much younger men. Go on web sites discussing their relationship and you'll find tons of comments talking about what old bags they are, and telling Justin and Ashton to get some cute chicks their own age.
Posted by: Gail at August 12, 2009 4:25 PM
=============================
While this may be true on some obscure blog I am talking about what I see in what I consider the main stream media of television.
Also- I am talking about the comments I have heard from caty women in the work place when they see an older guy with a younger woman.
I don't see why this is so hard to acknowledge- I think most people would agree that this is common place in our culture.
My original statement which I still consider to be true.
"A common double standard in our society
is for women to criticize an older guy
for dating a youger woman but it's "you
go girl" if a woman dates a younger man."
David M. at August 13, 2009 8:33 AM
For the record, we went back to the therapist we saw prior to our marriage, picked up some tips on communicating our needs better, and are very happy.
Posted by: Katherine at August 12, 2009 2:51 PM
How long ago was this letter you wrote to Amy?
I hope you have worked out your situation.
David M. at August 13, 2009 8:37 AM
In my generation, one of out four people have stds, which means casual sex is similar to playing russian roulette.
-----------------------------------
You could also choke on a breadcrust at lunch, get mugged walking back to work afterward, or get rear-ended and die instantly (or be maimed) in your car on the way home. Do you not eat, not leave for lunch, or not leave the house at all?
PS There may be a successful Herpes med out of LSU.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2009 1:39 AM
================================
Amy, Usually you are much more rationale than this.- Maybe due to the late hour.
I work for the Health department in the STD office and the statistic of one out of four is correct and its creeping toward one in three. See cdc-std.
One in four are risky odds for a personal choice you make.
No choice -you have to eat, and the odds of dying from choking on breadcrust or other food I would imagine is greater than one out of fifty thousand or greater.
You may have to walk somewhere and you odds of getting mugged, depending on where you live are probably one in 20,000 or greater.
Dying or getting maimed in a car accident is probably 1 in 10,000 or greater again depending where you live etc...
David m. at August 13, 2009 8:51 AM
"My ex-husband used to come up behind me, grab my breasts and say, "Hey, baby, wanna wrestle?"
God, how I don't miss him at all."
MonicaP -- I absolutely snorted coffee out of my nose when I read this.
Gail at August 13, 2009 9:09 AM
For Gail-
"Women denigrate men who go for hot young women because they feel threatened"
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 12, 2009 4:48 PM
--------------------------
See Amy's column from yesterday-Wood If He Could.
Yours in continued silliness, David M.
David M. at August 13, 2009 9:09 AM
For Gail-
"Women denigrate men who go for hot young women because they feel threatened"
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 12, 2009 4:48 PM
--------------------------
See Amy's column from yesterday-Wood If He Could.
Yours in continued silliness, David M.
Posted by: David M. at August 13, 2009 9:09 AM
What planet am I living on? Apparently the same one as Amy :)
Sorry- I couldn't help myself!
David M. at August 13, 2009 9:19 AM
David M. --
Who's "denigrat[ing] men who go for hot young women"? Not me. Nor am I denigrating women who go for hot young men. Go for what you want, I say.
What I'm ridiculing is your "oh poor me, I'm so oppressed, in our society women are encouraged to date younger dudes and men aren't" statement. Which, for all of the reasons I detail above, is just plain silly.
True, you will find women criticizing men who go for much younger babes. And you'll find other women cheering on women who go for much younger studs. Here's a tip, though, David M. -- THEY AREN'T THE SAME WOMEN.
The women saying "you go girl" are basically saying, "at last, we get to be like Cary Grant and go for someone half our age." But the women who criticize Cary Grant are certainly criticizing Demi. They're not saying "Oh Cary, you dirty old man. Go Demi!"
More men and women are comfortable with a guy dating someone 20 years younger than they are a woman doing it. And that shows in the fact that no one blinks at the 12 year difference between Brangelina, but everyone needs to talk about the 9 year difference between Cameron and Justin. And hell -- the thing that brought up the issue at all is the measly, tiny 6 year difference between LW Katherine and her husband, which is seriously nothing. When it's a man versus a woman, that doesn't even count as an age difference.
And I'm not in the least threatened, by the way. As a general rule, I prefer men my own age and older, although I have briefly dated a couple of guys 7 or 8 years younger. And I get hit on by men in their late 20's and early 30's (I'm 44, but am very fit, slim, and have used sunscreen my entire life, so I'm wrinkle-free). Just had a 31 year old trainer in my gym ask me out a couple of weeks ago. (And he was taken aback when I told him how old I was -- he'd assumed I was around his age.) I like my 47 year old boyfriend much better, though.
Yep, lots of my male friends my age want to date someone 25. Yep, lots of guys who might turn to check out my ass on the street would categorically rule me out on Match.com. The fact is, if they want someone 25, they're not for me, and they should go for what they want. I don't want a dude who would rather be dating Britney.
Gail at August 13, 2009 9:33 AM
What I'm ridiculing is your "oh poor me, I'm so oppressed, in our society women are encouraged to date younger dudes and men aren't" statement. Which, for all of the reasons I detail above, is just plain silly.
Posted by: Gail at August 13, 2009 9:33 AM
=========================================
Gail I'm sensing desperation from you in the fact that you have assigned to me the following "oh poor me, I'm so oppressed, in our society women are encouraged to date younger dudes and men aren't" statement.
-----------------------------------
There is no poor me about this and I don't feel oppressed. I'm not sure how you got that from the statement I originally made (Copy below).
A common double standard in our society is for women to criticize an older guy for dating a youger woman but it's "you go girl" if a woman dates a younger man.
They have even coined the popular term cougar for it.
Posted by: David M. at August 12, 2009 1:46 PM
-My statement is my personal observations, which you disagreed with me about.
Which I then provided examples of and even found a statement from Amy- "Women denigrate men who go for hot young women because they feel threatened"
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 12, 2009 4:48 PM.
This article is from the very same day that you said this isn't true and you didn't know what planet I lived on?
I made a personal observation, that I think many people would agree with, and tried to support it with examples.
You assigned feelings to me of "oh poor me and I'm so oppressed" when that has nothing to do with a statement I made regarding my personal observations.
David M. at August 13, 2009 10:14 AM
For Monica -- To my mind the biggest risk of waiting till marriage is the very real possibility of marrying young to the first person who gives you seriously hot pants so you can finally get laid. IIRC, statistics show that kids who have been strictly brought up with 'not until marriage' are, indeed, more likely to marry early, which is a great way to end up divorced, and very possibly divorced with a couple of kids.
I sure as heck wasn't a virgin till marriage -- and I didn't even date the man I married until just before my 31st birthday. 20 years later, 14 of them married, we're still deeply in love.
Sex before marriage takes the extreme biological pressure out of the decision.
Dana at August 13, 2009 10:31 AM
And on the subject of age differences: My adorable husband is 6 1/2 years younger than me. Never mattered to us, except that I knew going in that I couldn't expect a fast commitment; he was too young and freshly out of a bad engagement.
But about 4 months into our relationship, my brother said, "How long have you and BF been going out now?" "About four months." "He's a really nice guy. Too bad you can't be serious about him." I reacted as if I'd been defrauded, and demanded why not? "He's so much younger than you are."
My brother was, at the time, seriously dating a girl 6 years younger than he was. And he's a remarkably open-minded, thoughtful guy. Yet he seemed to think the same age difference between me and the BF meant we couldn't be serious.
BTW, brother married a woman 10 years younger than he. Who is, I might add, a darling.
Dana at August 13, 2009 10:36 AM
Sorry, but you all are really getting this really wrong. This isn't about LW having no sex drive or not wanting her husband. This is about her wanting her husband to relate to her in other ways than just sex.
Marriage did not kill my sex drive, it made it stronger, but what kills the sex drive is when the man sees you as the equivalent of a blow-up doll that he can put his penis in. It's a wonderful thing to have your husband respond to you, but sometimes you do want to put your arms around him without it leading to the bedroom. It's about being related to as a person, not being wanted just for sex. Women are funny that way.
kristen at August 13, 2009 12:15 PM
"How long ago was this letter you wrote to Amy?
I hope you have worked out your situation."
I wrote Amy in mid-June. We saw the therapist 3-4 times in July. Everything is truly fine. As I said before, once I started intiating sex (which my previous husband did not like me to do) and my husband realized that I would indeed come to him when given the chance (plus the knowledge that he really WANTED me to do this), things improved rapidly.
Amy recently recommended some books to me and I'll be picking those up as well. Though things are great right now, I figure every marriage can use all the help it can get and I'm certainly not ashamed to admit that.
Katherine at August 13, 2009 12:47 PM
"Do you not eat, not leave for lunch, or not leave the house at all?" Amy Alkon
-------------
I agree that a life devoted only to avoiding risks is no kind of life. Its a matter of deciding which risks are worth it and which aren't. Sending a manuscript in to try to get published, traveling in Europe, or mountain biking are risks I would take. Engaging in random hook-ups, not so much.
Monogamy increases financial, physical, and emotional security. Some of the poorest people in America are families headed by single mothers. And I cannot even imagine the nightmare for a man when he opens a letter naming him as the father to some baby and demanding he either produce physical evidence that he's not the father or pay up for the next 18 years. Then the diminished risks of contracting stds and saving oneself the emotional toll that sharing yourself so intimately with someone who may not even care about you at all render monogamy an option to at least consider.
Lily at August 13, 2009 1:28 PM
And I get hit on by men in their late 20's and early 30's (I'm 44, but am very fit, slim, and have used sunscreen my entire life, so I'm wrinkle-free). Just had a 31 year old trainer in my gym ask me out a couple of weeks ago. (And he was taken aback when I told him how old I was -- he'd assumed I was around his age.)
Sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS here. I'm sure that you're very pretty, but really doubt that men are confusing your for a woman in her late twenties or early thirties.
There are structural and compositional changes to the face that occur through the late twenties and thirties which aren't affected by your exposure to the sun or whether you're fit. They arise from hormonal changes and typically result in the masculinization of a persons facial features.
This is why it's much easier for a woman to appear to be in her later 30's or early 40's for a long while, but extremely difficult for them to appear to be in their twenties.
The same process occurs to men, but the results are usually considered flattering.
Jeff Mazey at August 13, 2009 2:13 PM
"Sex before marriage takes the extreme biological pressure out of the decision."
Posted by: Dana at August 13, 2009 10:31 AM
------------------
I think I think it was my comment you were responding to and it is a very excellent point. I can see why a lot of people choose not to be monogamous. With birth control pills and condoms and that (as you said) in our society certain needs and desire come into play well before most of us are financially independent of our parents and in a position to marry. It is understandable that multiple sexual partners before one settles down (if one settles down) is the norm. I'm just trying to say there are still reasons one might choose differently.
Lily at August 13, 2009 2:21 PM
to be monogamous I mean that I consider valid anyway.
Lily at August 13, 2009 2:24 PM
David M- To find an example of people denigrating older women/younger men, look no further than this column:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/cloud-swine.html
A direct quote:
"The young guys rarely start moonily talking about their future with her. In fact, she is typically the subject of much snickering talk among the guy's buddies, who all want to hear what degrading things the gal agreed to do this week. Her sexuality becomes a good laugh for the young guys, who will know *everything* about her."
Shannon at August 13, 2009 5:03 PM
How long ago was this letter you wrote to Amy?
I hope you have worked out your situation."
I wrote Amy in mid-June. We saw the therapist 3-4 times in July. Everything is truly fine. As I said before, once I started intiating sex (which my previous husband did not like me to do) and my husband realized that I would indeed come to him when given the chance (plus the knowledge that he really WANTED me to do this), things improved rapidly.
Amy recently recommended some books to me and I'll be picking those up as well. Though things are great right now, I figure every marriage can use all the help it can get and I'm certainly not ashamed to admit that.
Posted by: Katherine at August 13, 2009 12:47 PM
===============
Katherine I am truly happy for you that things are working out. I hope they continue to work out as we need more good marraiges in this country. Good luck. My best David M.
David M. at August 13, 2009 6:56 PM
David M- To find an example of people denigrating older women/younger men, look no further than this column:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/cloud-swine.html
A direct quote:
"The young guys rarely start moonily talking about their future with her. In fact, she is typically the subject of much snickering talk among the guy's buddies, who all want to hear what degrading things the gal agreed to do this week. Her sexuality becomes a good laugh for the young guys, who will know *everything* about her."
Posted by: Shannon at August 13, 2009 5:03 PM
-----------------------------
Thanks, but not really my point.
I said
"A common double standard in our society is for women to criticize an older guy for dating a youger woman but it's "you go girl" if a woman dates a younger man.
They have even coined the popular term cougar for it.
- I am speaking of women when I say it's "you go girl" if a woman dates a younger man.
Your quote is from spartee who is male.
So this doesn't exactly fit what I was saying or the point I was trying to make with Gail.
My point is that I see women who have double standards.
David M at August 13, 2009 7:20 PM
"Sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS here. I'm sure that you're very pretty, but really doubt that men are confusing your for a woman in her late twenties or early thirties."
Ooooooo, Jeff Mazey, you hit my vanity button!
This is the internet, so, obviously, I could be a 65 year old man with no teeth and two wooden legs. So by all means take me (and everyone else) with a serious grain of salt.
But, believe me or no, within the last year, I had a 35 year old woman -- not a guy trying to pick me up, but another woman -- tell me that I'd "think differently when I got to be [her] age." She almost fell over when I told her I was 43 (at that time). Another woman at a party this summer told me I had "plenty of time for thinking about whether I really wanted kids." (HA!) Four months ago, on a cruise, I had a guy tell me that he'd been working at his job for 28 years "and that's longer than you've been alive, young lady." Occasionally my friends do an embarrassing "guess how old she is" thing to people who just met me, and I've never, ever had anyone guess me over 35 -- it's usually more like 30-32, and occasionally younger. My boyfriend (3 years older) was subject to a catty remark for dating a young woman (hello, David M., there you go) before the catty woman found out my age. And when I travel in Europe, I am often asked if I have a student ID. (I think the cut-off is age 26. That's a bit silly, I don't think I look that young, but still, it has happened, and within the last year.)
And yes, I admit, I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very vain about this! It makes all the years of working out, not overdoing the partying, and slathering on the sunscreen worthwhile.
Genes help, too. Both my parents look way younger than they are. Mom still has almost no gray hair, in her mid 60s. When she was 42 and I was 21, no one could believe she could actually be my mom. She's still a size 4, and she still has great skin.
I'm not and never was Angelina Jolie. I wasn't the curviest, sexiest 18 year old on the planet. (Actually, the super curvy figures often have a harder time holding up as well as we athletic B-cup types -- gravity can be a bitch.) But a really young-looking 44 -- yes, I am, and DAMN pleased about it!
Actually, though, looking young is occasionally a disadvantage professionally. I tend to wear my glasses and put my hair in a more severe style when I'm dealing with clients, and I don't go office casual. Yep, a 44 year old woman actually trying to look older -- go figure.
Gail at August 13, 2009 8:20 PM
Posted by: Gail at August 13, 2009 8:20 PM
====================================
Jeffs remark was way off and you called him on it.
Genetics are a crazy thing.
My Dad, and thankfully myself have fortunate genes as I will call them.
My Dad went to his 50th high school reunion in 1996. My Dad had a twinge of gray hair at his side burns and jet black hair (un-dyed).
All of his classmates looked like, well, old people. I am 46 and have a beard and people typically guess my age at 35-38.
When I didn't have my beard a lot of people guessed me at 15-18 years younger.
David M. at August 14, 2009 4:35 AM
Jeffs remark was way off and you called him on it.
Relax. I don't think that Gail was insulted, and she seems to recognize that her situation is exceptional - because I'm not 'way off'.
My wife has a cosmetic and reconstructive surgery practice, so I do have a second-hand familiarity with these issues. There's a big difference between someone who looks 'young for their age', and someone who's in their 40's but honestly looks as though they're on the cusp of their 30's.
The former is associated w/ nice skin and hair, being trim and such, but the latter requires that you have the facial features of someone much younger, and many of these are very subtle. So you're right, it's largely genetic.
For instance, there are changes to the musculature and distribution of fat surrounding the eyes that occur past the early thirties. This isn't caused by environmental factors, it likely due to hormonal changes and simple tissue mechanics. It's these changes that are one of the most consistent markers of someone's age. They can otherwise have the skin and features of an 18 year old, but the expression of their eyes will indicate that they're much older.
The acid test for determining how young you actually look is to ask a selection of younger people (e.g. 10+ years younger). The fact that Gail's been mistaken for being in her early thirties by other people near that age is a good sign that she resembles someone that age. But I wouldn't put as much stock in the estimates of older people.
Jeff Mazey at August 14, 2009 11:05 AM
I find myself skeptically regarding LW's follow-up post. Sorry, I am just that way.
"Every subject was thoroughly discussed prior to our getting married--we only chose to abstain from the actual practice of it."
Perhaps your story suggests that earnest talk is not enough of a vetting process for a lifetime-of-monogamy promise in the age of birth control. But then, sounds like birth control is no friend to you. Decisions, decisions....they all have consequences. Very annoying part of life, really.
"...I would have hoped for some reservation of judgement.
C'mon, be honest. Is that all you hoped for, or did you hope that your point of view would be acclaimed as correct?
On that point, I think what you are getting from posters--especially the male ones--are undiluted doses of possible emotions your husband may have had when he read your letter to Ms. Alkon.* Emotions he controlled at that time due to his closeness to you and a desire not to upset you.
I assume you did share that letter with him before you sent it? After all, given that your complaint is, essentially, he is not taking your feelings into account, you surely did not open up his sex life for public discussion without consulting him--i.e., take his feelings about that into account?
Good to hear things are working out. One caution, though: is he saying, unbidden, things are working out and talking enthusiastically about that fact?
Spartee at August 15, 2009 6:52 PM
"Sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS here. I'm sure that you're very pretty, but really doubt that men are confusing your for a woman in her late twenties or early thirties."
Ooooooo, Jeff Mazey, you hit my vanity button!
Jeffs remark was way off and you called him on it.
Relax. I don't think that Gail was insulted, and she seems to recognize that her situation is exceptional - because I'm not 'way off'.
Posted by: Jeff Mazey at August 14, 2009
11:05 AM
I have two words for you... Susan Lucci!
David M. at August 16, 2009 7:12 AM
"C'mon, be honest. Is that all you hoped for, or did you hope that your point of view would be acclaimed as correct?"
To be brutually honest, I didn't think my letter was interesting enough to make it into one of Amy's columns. She probably receives thousands of emails a day! And while I didn't expect arbitary validation, I did find it upsetting that many people jumped on a bandwagon of accusing me of everything from being a frigid prude who didn't like having sex with my husband to a gold digging opportunist who was simply looking for a Dad stand-in. As I said, for someone that takes great pride in being a good wife and was very careful about dating since I was already a mother, that was a little upsetting.
By the way, my husband thinks I'm nuts (probably true) that I let virtual strangers over the internet upset me, if that makes you feel better.
"I assume you did share that letter with him before you sent it? After all, given that your complaint is, essentially, he is not taking your feelings into account, you surely did not open up his sex life for public discussion without consulting him--i.e., take his feelings about that into account?"
I think you're taking the problem as I explained it and twisting it to make an argument of why I'm not perfect either--which I've never claimed to be. In my emails to Amy, I certainly didn't make him out to be an insensitive jerk. Remember, vast contents of my emails to her were edited out.
To answer your question though, no, I didn't share the letter with him before I sent it, but I did share it with him after I sent it, including confessing to the fact that I lied to him about being sick.
We do share an email account though and he has read both ends of the correspondence, the letter as it appeared here, and Amy's reply--which he actually found very funny and even agreed was fairly accurate.
"Good to hear things are working out. One caution, though: is he saying, unbidden, things are working out and talking enthusiastically about that fact?"
Spartee, I get that you are a cynic, but sometimes, could you be just a little positive? How many men do you know who go around saying "my marriage is working out great!" to any and all that are within ear shot?
All I can tell you is that our communication skills were given a little tweaking, he frequently tells me what an amazing woman, wife, Mother, I am, and that we are very happy together. I feel more confident and comfortable about initiating intimacy and he is extremely happy about that.
Now, he could always be lying to my face, but I can't live my life on what-ifs.
Katherine at August 20, 2009 2:05 PM
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