Boys 'R' Us
How successful are relationships where the woman is much older? I'm a 21-year-old guy with a 38-year-old girlfriend. I'm frequently hit on and teased by her female friends. They don't seem interested in me as a person but want a younger guy for sex. Being referred to as "the toy" is getting old.
--Annoyed
Age difference? What age difference? Meanwhile, your girlfriend isn't sure whether to offer you a cigarette after sex or a plate of animal crackers. It's the rare 21-year-old who has much to tell a 38-year-old, beyond "Your shoulder's putting my arm to sleep." Sure, there are older-younger relationships that work, but you two don't have a relationship; you have playdates. How do I know? Because friends don't hit on friends' boyfriends so easily. Yeah, it happens. But, when it happens with frequency, it's a sign of how your partner feels -- and talks -- about you. If you want a relationship, that's what you should have. Just find some sweet girl closer to your own age; in other words, somebody more likely to draw hearts around your name than straws to see who's next in line to play with her toy.
Isn’t this the type of potential life experience guys at his age can only fantasize about? Just sayin'.
Feebie at August 25, 2009 10:39 PM
I had a dyslexic moment and read it as "12-year-old"
NicoleK at August 26, 2009 3:46 AM
LW, I assume you treated them with mature, respectful behavior commensurate with your own adulthood, and in return you got treated like this by them.
So, in light of that assumption, let me give you some advice which your father would give you, if we still had fathers in this culture: tell those friends to keep their sorry, aging asses away from you if they are going to talk to you like that. Give that message to them in calm, controlled tones of utter indifference. (Practice that tone in the mirror; it is a learned skill, trust me.) Stare them full in the face as you say it. No smiles, no laughs.
Say this *right then* next time they make dismissive remarks about your age or your relationship to your face. DON'T talk to your "girlfriend" about this matter first. DON'T share your feelings about being treated this way. And DON'T ever, ever, ever ask anyone's fucking permission before standing up for yourself, especially not your lady friend, who apparently doesn't give enough of a shit about you to tell her friends to shut the fuck up.
Let me repeat that important life lesson: don't ever ask anyone's fucking permission before standing up for yourself.
Just stand up for yourself and tell them you don't treat them that way, and if they think they can do that, they can go to hell.
Then turn to your "girlfriend" (rethink that one, mi amigo), and tell *her*, in front of them, that you don't appreciate her doing nothing while her friends treat you like a jerk. Again, calm, controlled tones.
Pause until someone apologizes. If they don't, say, "this is where you guys tell me you are sorry for your behavior." If an apology is not given, leave. Immediately.
Harsh? Nope. Just putting them on notice that you don't give shit, or take it. Trust me, there will be plenty of times in life where you have to take someone's shit in order to pull a paycheck, make your way, or better your position. Don't do it at your age, in your position, for people like these crones-in-training.
You need to see where their treatment of you is coming from. These are middle-aged women scared of their fading youth. You represent something that is disappearing from their life: ardent male sexual attention. In a few short years, it is over for them. And like guys who get all mean to girls who reject them, these gals are working out their issues by giving you shit. You are seen as a safe, low-stakes punching bag. And this sort of passive aggressive BS is how gals peck at each other in their own social orders. Don't let them get all over you like that. Don't let anyone get all over you like that, in fact, unless they pay your mortgage and grocery bill every two weeks via paycheck.
I'd give the same advice to a gal your age.
Spartee at August 26, 2009 6:39 AM
"They don't seem interested in me as a person but want a younger guy for sex. Being referred to as "the toy" is getting old."
Like Spartee says, if you don't want to be a toy, then don't be one. That's pretty much up to you.
old rpm daddy at August 26, 2009 7:31 AM
How do I know? Because friends don't hit on friends' boyfriends so easily.
That's right. She's giving them permission to treat him this way.
The thing a lot of younger guys don't understand when dating older women, is that the women usually regard them as losers. You'll notice that when men date younger women, they look for someone who's sharp and mature. When women go for younger guys, they seem look for someone who's immature and manipulable.
Isn’t this the type of potential life experience guys at his age can only fantasize about? Just sayin'.
NO. He's 21, not 13. Really young guys might fantasize about sex with an older women, but they're thinking of hot college girls, not their mother's. At 21 they've likely had that 'life experience', or at least can get it from girls their own age.
Mark at August 26, 2009 7:37 AM
My 24-year-old brother is dating a 35-year old woman right now. Obviously, less of an age difference than in LW's case, but still significant. I don't think either of them are taking it very seriously, though. Maybe LW's ladyfriend thinks it doesn't matter much to him, either?
I agree with the commenters above: her friends wouldn't treat him like a tasty little morsel if they thought the relationship was actually meaningful. Don't get attached.
ahw at August 26, 2009 8:15 AM
Spartee, well put!!!
Thanks for that...
That "life lesson" is succinct and memorable.
Moopy at August 26, 2009 8:31 AM
Spartee's advice ought to be part of the High School curriculum across the country.
We won't all be rich or successful or accomplish great things. We can all maintain our dignity.
MarkD at August 26, 2009 8:47 AM
"You'll notice that when men date younger women, they look for someone who's sharp and mature." - Mark
Really? I think lots of older men look for HOT younger women. They may also be "sharp and mature" but I don't think those are always the top priorities. A generalization like that is really annoying, what older men and women aim for in younger dates depends entirely on what they are looking to get out of it. This woman doesn't want a boyfriend, she wants a good time and a good story, so she looked for someone who would let himself get treated like crap. My 37 year old co-worker who doesn't want to get married and wants to party dates his 22 year old model girlfriend because she's hot and insecure enough to do whatever he says without asking for anything.
Sam at August 26, 2009 9:51 AM
My advice? Your "GF" doesnt seem to mind her friends propositioning you, I suggest you take a few of them up on their offers
lujlp at August 26, 2009 6:55 PM
Hrm. I'd call their behavior "SEXUAL HARASSMENT" because that's what it is - unwanted sexual attention. A lot of people think that men can't be sexually harassed because 1) all men are dogs and they deserve a taste of their own medicine, even if they personally have never disrespected anyone 2) only women can be sexually harassed anyway - didn't you know that, you sexist pig?
There's a book called "Back Off" by Martha J. Langelan, which is unfortunately out of print. It has great strategies for confronting harassment. Mostly it's written for women but the basic ones (label the behavior not the person, don't take any guff from them, and enlist your own friends in the most serious and chronic situations) are gender neutral.
So, I'd go for Spartee's advice but leave out the name-calling. I'd skip telling them their asses are sorry and aging, in other words, and just tell them not to speak to me that way. Label the behavior all you want, though.
The hard part at least for me is responding quickly in the moment. When I'm out with friends or even "friends" my guard is down, I'm not constantly looking for a transgression to pounce on, so when it happens I'm reluctant to break the flow of the conversation.
But even harder than this is that sometimes people don't listen. There's nothing more discouraging than finally screwing up the courage to speak your piece, using all the correct wording and whatnot, and nothing changes! This doesn't mean you did it wrong, it just means that these women are all morons who can't recognize or respond correctly to respectful behavior.
Even though Spartee said not to share your feelings with your GF first before laying into her friends (btw I'm 44 and don't appreciate hearing that my life is close to over, thanks Spartee), I think at some point you should have a chat with her - even if it's just an exit interview: "Boy-toy, why did you dump me?" "Because you sat there snickering with your thumb up your ass while your friends grabbed my crotch over my vociferous protests"). But don't expect much out of that.
My evil twin thinks that you should show up in front of the lot of them with a hot chick on your arm, preferably a tough minded leather babe, and have the chick start making the same remarks to them as they were making to you. Girl-on-girl sexual harassment! But the better course of action is to walk away.
vi at August 27, 2009 7:20 AM
vi, my guess is if he does the initial verbal take-down right, their open mouths, blank stares and struggles to respond to his blunt talk will halt the conversation dead. My guess is, as they are in a group, their first reaction will be to look at each other and attempt to regain their dominance by looking at each other with arched eyebrows, smirks and exhalations of "okay...", as if he has shat the bed, not them.
That is why he should follow up with a demand for an apology. That usually makes verbal bullies mad, since they realize they have lost control of the conversation. He is now setting the terms of the conversation, not them. When they refuse--bullies usually do--you leave the conversation, for good. Who cares if they don't like you after that? They insulted you to your face for a laugh. And their likely claims of "oh, come now, we are just kidding!" are attempts to manipulate him into staying for more of the same.
My advice to people in that situation is, don't stand for it. And anyone not defending you by stating their displeasure with the behavior is, in essence, joining in for the laugh. (LW, that would be your girlfriend.)
My guess is all of them--but especially the "girlfriend"--would feel his sudden rejection of them and departure quite keenly. Their focus on his youth and sexual objectification of him suggest they are threatened by him. To reduce their anxiety, they use displays of dominance and attempt to reduce his position by verbal belittling. My wild guess is he is a stand-in for all the young men who no longer look at them in the same way young men did twenty years ago.
To relieve the anxiety they feel about their age, they seek reassurance of their appeal by these antics. They can seek that reassurance without actually putting themselves at risk of rejection. If he pulls away from their advances, he is simply the "boy toy" dating their friend. It was just them funning with him, dumb little creature that he is. Chuckle. No risk of social embarassment.
But if he actually takes them up on their advances, they get the reassurance they seek but have the option of quickly reverting to a safe zone of "Oh, I am just kidding...you are dating my friend." No risk of entanglement with an actual sex partner.
Imagine, hwoever, they were to actually hit on 21 year olds for real. Now *that* would likely terrify them, since the emotional stakes are high for them.
The LW is just playing a role in their drama--they don't see him as an interesting, complete person with his own life and emotions. Accordingly, he should give them some straight talk, and get lost if they don't immediately come around to treating him properly. I doubt they will, frankly. So Ms. Alkon's advice is spot on. I would suggest, however, that he use this opportunity to develop his ability to push back on people who deserve it. It is a skill he will need in life.
Spartee at August 27, 2009 8:53 AM
Spartee-that is really good advice, but in this situation I think it's treating the symptom instead of the problem. LW can protest all day that he's not a toy, but that hardly carries wait when he's staying in a relationship in which he's being treated like one. You can't demand respect from other people until you respect yourself, and in this case self-respecting means dumping the girlfriend, thereby effectively ridding yourself of her friends.
Shannon at August 27, 2009 10:01 AM
Spartee. Thank you for contributing. This is the second time Iv'e seen you give advice that is so dead on and accurate that iv'e had to copy it to my personal journal for future reference. I will subscribe to your blog if you have one.
Time Fractal at August 27, 2009 10:29 AM
Shannon: I figured him standing up for himself w/o apology would finish it with girlfriend, unless she wants to chase him with apologies and promises to change. Ms. Alkon was right: he almost certainly needs to dump the GF, though. Hard to see how she can credibly promise to be better if she was so careless before.
Time: No blog. That sounds too much like work. =)
Spartee at August 27, 2009 11:08 AM
This is the first time I've ever commented on one of Amy's columns, though I read the comments on these and her blog entries near religiously.
I think Spartee is absolutely correct, as I've seen this sort of thing first hand and even, shameful now to admit, done it myself, and been on the receiving end of this crap. He won't be considered a "real person" by these women, or his "girlfriend" until he speaks up and makes them take notice he's onto their game. The age-difference thing is something I think many people dismiss in relationships, since a lot of people seem to think that if you're mature enough and adult enough you can relate to anyone, but if you have nothing in common outside the bedroom, regardless of age, it's not going to go anywhere.
I'm involved with a man who's turning 40 tomorrow, and I just turned 22 this month. Whereas the sex is amazing, he still treats me like a worthwhile person, listens to my opinions, values my company especially when clothed, and doesn't let anyone, even his family, belittle me for my age. We tease each other about the age thing, but it really is all in fun because we relate on so many other things age has no relevance to.
I am copying down Spartee's advice about taking crap from people, it can be applied to a score of situations I'm dealing with.
Amber at August 27, 2009 3:56 PM
Good for you Amber.
One poster said: "sometimes people don't listen".
Make that "most of the time, people don't listen".
While I like Spartee's comments, they are unlikely to accomplish anything. The women know what they're doing - treating him like a toy. They aren't going to change, even if tells them off.
The only way to change the situation is to take himself out of it.
bradley13 at August 28, 2009 6:05 AM
Well, it change the situation in a way. It lets them know that he won't stand for their crap and also teaches himself to stand up for himself. As Spartee said, this is most likely and arguement which simply precedes his exit from the relationship and their company, but everyone will learn something if the LW follows the advice.
This may also dim the impression that these ladies have of themselves, the toy isn't supposed to grow a pair and tell you to shove it. He can replace his cougar gf easier than they can replace their young, studly boytoy.
Amax at August 28, 2009 6:59 AM
The only way to change the situation is to take himself out of it.
That would be my advice if the girlfriend is aware of what's happening. I wouldn't put up with this from my boyfriend's friends and he'd go ballistic if he found out about it.
Spartee may be correct that there's an element of animosity in the way that her friends treat him. Some women that age don't handle younger men well, or even men their own age. It can be a hard time for many women, especially if their attractiveness is a big part of their identity. You just don't get the same attention from men that you used to.
luna at August 28, 2009 8:23 AM
How successful are relationships where the woman is much older?
They're not, with either older men or women. Seventeen years is a big age difference. I've seen this work with couples who are both older, but not when one person is in their twenties.
I think that the big problem is the physical changes that the older person will experience. This is especially true with an older woman.
IMO a significant difference can be good when the man is older. Men and women age very differently and it seems like older men are better 'calibrated' to younger women physically. But the man needs to keep himself up, which most men don't do.
Mike at August 30, 2009 6:41 AM
Spartee and Amy, spot on!
I am a good bit younger than beloved boyfriend and nobody he knows would speak to me in that way. I guess all I have to add is that if you date scum expect their circle of friends to be scummy too.
Mike, my writer buddy John T. had all of his successful relationships with older women, even one who was 16 or 17 years his senior. Never anything lasting very long with the age difference going the other way, so I guess it happens sometimes. But I agree with you, it is not the norm, probably quite rare.
His new flame is a successful lawyer and about 15 years older than him, if I am remembering right. He has mentioned her here I think.
Suki at August 30, 2009 8:24 AM
I think that if both the man and the woman keep themselves in excellent shape, there won't be a problem, no matter what the age difference. The only thing which is important is that the younger person should be over 25, and very emotionally mature and responsible at that age. They should also be capable of treating each other with respect. I've seen women in their 20s treat their boyfriends like total crap, so age isn't a factor there.
Women seem to be more tolerant of men letting themselves go when they get older (guys sadly get the big potbelly). Mike, what do you mean that mean are better calibrated to younger women?
If you're a hot older women, there's no shortage of hot young guys looking for no strings attached sex, so the supply and demand dynamics are definitely working in the woman's favour (there's a lot of older guys looking for the NSA sex too, but women can be picky with that kind of glut in the market).
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