Milked And Honey
My girlfriend of two years just left me, saying she'd fallen out of love. Prior to leaving, she moved into my condo as part of our long-term plan to buy a house together. She insisted on many renovations, and I went along to make her happy. I put in $5,000, we borrowed $15,000 from my grandmother, and we both signed a contract to pay her back. Now she's gone, with $800 she cleaned out of our joint account, I'm up to my eyeballs in debt, and she refuses to pay. I'm being forced to sell the condo. To make matters worse, she confessed she'd had doubts about the relationship before moving in -- although she never voiced them; she just demanded expensive home improvements! But, this is all background. My problem is my friends, who met my ex through me. They know what happened, but tell me I have to get used to her being around because they intend to keep inviting her to parties. So, are these people really my friends? They speak words of friendship, but don't back them up.
--Very Alone
You lost your love, you're losing your condo, and Granny's sending over two thugs to break your legs if she doesn't get her money or a great-grandchild by the first of the month. Your friends feel really bad for you -- just not bad enough to drag themselves out of the booth where they're drinking appletinis with your ex, who's got everybody in stitches with her stories of condo construction hell.
You approach love with the hopeless optimism of a degenerate gambler. You threw money you didn't have at a relationship you must've sensed wouldn't last, like treating it as a sure thing would make it one. In our e-mail exchange, you admitted that this girl had never shown much interest in anyone else's needs, including yours, and even neglected her cat. Hellooo, life partner! You also said she owes $40K on credit cards, $50K on student loans, and makes only $40K a year. Yes, here's a woman who has "great credit risk" written all over her...collection agency notices that come in the mail every day.
Of course, when a couple breaks up, their friends are sometimes lobbied so hard by both partners that they find it hard to figure out the real story, or they think it isn't their place to get in the middle. But, this wasn't a case of "We had communication issues" or "We were just brought up differently." She robbed you. There isn't a lot of nuance in that to parse. So, in addition to a love who didn't act all that loving, it seems you have friends who act like acquaintances. There's a common denominator here, and it's you -- a guy who'd rather not divide the people in his life into their proper categories: those who'll go to the ends of the earth for you and those who won't cross the living room.
You can have real love and real friends -- if you're honest about who's there for you and who's just there. Friends are people you can count on, anytime, anywhere, for ransom or bail. The rest are just warm bodies you bump into with some regularity. Sure, you call them friends -- but only because "Meet my friend Bob" is snappier and sounds nicer than "This is Bob, who really has nothing to say to me, so he sends me Internet forwards threatening me with seven years of bad luck unless I forward this to 10 more idiots."
The Goddess writes: Friends are people you can count on, anytime, anywhere, for ransom or bail.
A friend is someone who will bail you out of jail, but a real friend will be there with you saying, "Man,we really screwed up!"
This guy sounds like someone who thinks so little of himself that he bribes people to be his friends. Girlfriend isn't exactly the most committed, so we'll just sink 20,000 dollars into home improvements to make sure she stays. While this strategy has merit, it needs a Rockefeller or a Gates.
And as you say, his real friends act like acquaintances. I suspect these friends probably never wanted anything closer than that, but given the way he threw himself into a relationship with a loser, trying to make it work, he probably does the same thing with his other, less intimate relationships.
So, he's likely now just learning you can't coerce or bribe a casual acquaintance into someone closer. He needs to cut those ties with all those people, or at least finally designate them to "acquaintance" status, and stop pathetically hurling himself at people who are "just not that into him." Desperation isn't exactly the most attractive attribute, either in friendship or intimate relationships.
Patrick at October 20, 2009 10:40 PM
The classic line is
Friends will help you move house. Best friends will help you move bodies.
My advice is step back from the present friends and see if you can try and find some new ones. Also if you and the ex are still going around the same place learn to be diplomatic. Do not complain to the friends about her. Let her be the one who whines and moans. Hopefully in the end if you are the one who keeps his mouth shut the other friends will likely come back to you when they tire or her complaints - maybe!
John Paulson at October 21, 2009 1:56 AM
He mentions BOTH signing a contract to pay granny back...let granny take her to court to get her money. As for his so called "friends", there are a lot of people in this world. Make new ones.
Jan Velli at October 21, 2009 2:07 AM
$25 says gis girlfreind is sleeping with at least 3 or 4 of his buddies
lujlp at October 21, 2009 4:46 AM
This: You also said she owes $40K on credit cards, $50K on student loans, and makes only $40K a year. Yes, here's a woman who has "great credit risk" written all over her...collection agency notices that come in the mail every day. really got my attention. Can't he bring her up on charges? At the very least, his great-gramma should be able to take her to small claims court based on the contract they both signed, no? Me, I'd sue the livin' shite outta her.
Flynne at October 21, 2009 4:54 AM
LW sounds like he's much, much better off without her around, debt or no debt. Sounds like he'd be better off without some of his friends, too.
Regarding John Paulson's comment: "Do not complain to the friends about her. Let her be the one who whines and moans. Hopefully ... the other friends will likely come back to you when they tire or her complaints - maybe!"
Maybe, but don't hold your breath. And at the end of the day, who cares? I'm not sure I'd value their friendship too highly anyway.
old rpm daddy at October 21, 2009 5:01 AM
"$25 says gis girlfreind is sleeping with at least 3 or 4 of his buddies"
Totally.
Spartee at October 21, 2009 6:12 AM
Dated a girl in my twenties and had introduced her to all my friends.
When it went bad I wanted them to choose sides. They didn't have the emotional investment in her I had-so why should they have to choose?
She was a fun girl to be around at the bar because she would buy a lot of drinks.
As time passed it didn't really matter. You get older you don't go to as many parties and bars and you get on with your life.
You can't see this now because your neck deep in this.
Time will change your perspective.
David M. at October 21, 2009 6:25 AM
My ex-husband always described everyone as "my friend" so-and-so. One day I heard him say that an IRS agent with whom he'd spoken on the telephone was his friend.
Did I mention he's my EX-husband?
Robin at October 21, 2009 6:53 AM
Guessing LW is in his 20s. Not a good time to be shacking up with a spendster. You got out early, so you're not liable for her student loans and credit card debt. Let some other sucker deal with that.
Warning signs for any guy or gal: potential partner living beyond his or her means. Better to just drop them early, or keep it casual and watch the person over time.
When my ex was my fiance, I gave her $50k to pay off her student loans and several credit card bills (she borrowed approx 30k to complete medical school). It was a bad investment; she never paid off the student loan, and her attorney kept trying to to sneak the loan into the divorce decree. Unsuccessfully, I might add.
Grandma should sue for the amount owed; probably a bankruptcy in this gals future, but a judgment against her would be nice to have. Then grandma could write this off as a loss and 1099 the slutty little tramp. Not an ideal situation, but eventually the IRS will track her down.
Relationships are GREAT!!! And dude, lose the friends.
sterling at October 21, 2009 7:21 AM
Do not ever, Ever, EVER commingle your money with someone else! She was his girlfriend, not his wife, and already a proven idiot when it came to finances. (This would be an excellent reason to keep her at girlfriend status, and not marry her.) What were they even doing with a joint account, or co-signing a loan? Where was this guy's backbone? (I know, Flynne, his wishbone was taking up that spot.)
As for these "friends," they don't sound much like friends to me. She could be forgiven for simply breaking up with him - that happens all the time. This goes beyond that, though. She signed contracts, reneged on them, and is bankrupting him in the process. It's one thing to break up with someone, it's another to shit all over them, and I think true friends owe one another a little bit of loyalty in situations like that. These "friends" simply don't want to be bothered with caring about how he feels, or what his situation is - they just want to follow the path of least resistance.
I would dump them all. Join a running group like Team in Training, a cycling club, a different gym, or take a few classes - something that focuses on self-improvement, that he can use to not only meet new friends, but to start feeling better about himself. Because seriously, this guy needs to develop some game. You should not need to let someone take advantage of you in order to have companionship. Something tells me that if she was having doubts about their relationship from the start, the signs were probably there, and he just didn't want to read them.
Pirate Jo at October 21, 2009 7:26 AM
"So, are these people really my friends? They speak words of friendship, but don't back them up."
Sounds like you already know the answer: No, they aren't even remotely your friends.
Reminds me of how I used to be - due to my own lack of self-respect, forging relationships with rotten people who would 'use and abuse'. Ditch them fast; don't waste another day. Cut your losses, figure out why you bring crappy into your life, then make new friends with people with better character.
Lobster at October 21, 2009 8:33 AM
To make matters worse, she confessed she'd had doubts about the relationship before moving in -- although she never voiced them; she just demanded expensive home improvements!
Her doubts were probably due the amount of money you have. But she liked to you enough to play make believe for a while, hence the $20K upgrade to the condo - who the hell is stupid enough to put $20K into a condo right now anyway?
You've dodged a bullet. I'm sure that it hurts, but this chick would have ruined your life.
And try to make some new friends.
Malromo at October 21, 2009 11:09 AM
What's funny about this situation is that the person who set themselves up to be duped isn't the LW, it's his ex-girlfriend. She's the one who signed the contract to borrow money that she doesn't have for renovations on a condo that isn't in her name with a guy that she doesn't see a future with. At least LW gets the benefit of a higher resale value on the condo; girlfriend is theoretically out $7,500 with nothing to show for it. No wonder this idiot is $90,000 in debt.
Of course, I don't have much sympathy for the LW either. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to borrow money he didn't have for renovations he didn't want. If he wanted the renovations anyway, then finding a girlfriend who would cosign to finance them was a stroke of luck for him. If he didn't want the renovations and knew he couldn't afford them, he should have stood his ground and said so.
Amy, this sounds a lot like the "Nice Guy" syndrome that you've written about in this column before.
Shannon at October 21, 2009 11:29 AM
Shannon, I agree that there's a nice-guy syndrome at work here. The LW learned his lesson relatively cheaply, as these things go. And I think luj nailed it, so to speak.
Cousin Dave at October 21, 2009 12:08 PM
A friend will bail you out. A good friend will be in there with you. A great friend will haul your ass up the side of Mt Doom.
He needs to lose all the people currently in his life, sell the condo and get out from under his debt, and move on with his life. She's not worth suing, she'd never pay.
momof4 at October 22, 2009 7:31 AM
The girlfriend is a classic sociopath-- no financial morals, doesn't care about anyone but herself, possible alcoholic, doesn't take care of pets... be glad you didn't marry a psychopath like her; they are always more dangerous than they seem.
Dragons Are Magic at October 22, 2009 6:53 PM
Shannon has a point. The LW's girlfriend has taken on a significant debt without commensurate ownership of the property. Now it may be that she's a sociopath who'd engaged in a two year relationship in order to con this guy into renovating his condo. But the more likely explanation is that she got caught up in having a 'serious relationship' and was playing house.
She's obviously not very good with money. But it's not surprising that she doesn't want to pay for this guy's home improvements. He hasn't offered to pay her back, and he's the one who stands to profit from the upgrades.
It's important to remember that we're only getting one side of this story. Frankly I don't buy the LW's account. It's too tendentious. By his telling, he's the absolute victim who's only fault was in caring too much.
Mike at October 22, 2009 8:51 PM
The lesson this guy needs to learn is a hard one. There are friends and then there are acquaintances and it sounds like he only has acquaintances. He should be glad that he found this out before a divorce with kids because then he'd really know what financial ruin is. He has time, all the time in the world, to pick himself up, examine his life, and move forward in a positive way. If he does, he'll look back one day and wonder why he allowed himself to be surrounded by such losers and leeches.
Kristen at October 23, 2009 5:55 AM
"She's obviously not very good with money. But it's not surprising that she doesn't want to pay for this guy's home improvements. He hasn't offered to pay her back, and he's the one who stands to profit from the upgrades. "
I was thinking the same thing. Why should she pay for improvements to someone else's property? Is that really fair to expect her to fund his housing renovations when they're not even in a relationship anymore?
"It's important to remember that we're only getting one side of this story. Frankly I don't buy the LW's account. It's too tendentious. By his telling, he's the absolute victim who's only fault was in caring too much. "
Yup. I'd really like to hear her side of the story.
Also, why should the rest of his social circle dump someone they like because the LW couldn't keep a relationship going?
JoJo at October 23, 2009 9:54 AM
"Grandma should sue for the amount owed; probably a bankruptcy in this gals future, but a judgment against her would be nice to have. Then grandma could write this off as a loss and 1099 the slutty little tramp. Not an ideal situation, but eventually the IRS will track her down. "
Where the hell are you getting "slutty little tramp" from?
I'll say it again, why on earth should this girl feel obligated to pay for someone else's home improvement loan? Yeah, she was stupid enough to sign a piece of paper, but AFAIC, she's not morally obligated to give this jerk a dime. It was his grandmother, his home and he'll be the one to reap any profits, just how is she a bad person for not wanting to fund an ex'es renovation project?
If the sexes were reversed, all the misogynists on this bb would be screaming about gold digging bitches financially raping poor innocent men.
JoJo at October 23, 2009 1:54 PM
I find myself agreeing with JoJo, Mike and Shannon -- why should the ex fund LW's renovations? He's going to get every bit of the benefit from them, financial and otherwise. It's not like they used the money to go on vacation together, or to buy something they could now split. If he sells the apartment, does she get a piece of the profits from the increased value of the place? Of course not. If he didn't want the renovations, he should have refused.
As to the friends -- if you're friends with both parties, I think it's fine to stay neutral post-breakup -- unless one of the parties seriously screws over the other. If I thought that's what happened here, I'd say LW needed new friends. But as it is, I find it revealing that their mutual friends apparently don't take LW's view of things.
Gail at October 23, 2009 5:25 PM
...that said, assuming we take LW's account at face value, it wasn't cool for GF to clear out the $800 from the joint account, assuming that part of that money belonged to LW. Add me to the list of people who'd like to hear her side of things.
Never co-mingle money until you're married!
Gail at October 23, 2009 5:37 PM
It's easy to sit here as a stranger on the internet and say "dump all your friends" but in that's much easier said than done. And pretty excessive: your friends don't immediately rally to your side in a breakup? Well, just drop 'em.
And I hardly think that LW's friends were out of line here. They've known with his ex for two years and he expects them to, what, never speak to her again? My guess is that the friends LW is referring to here are a social group that he hangs out with, and he isn't necessarily close to everyone in the group. It's certainly possible that he introduced his then-girlfriend to the group and she became tighter with some of them than he was. Doesn't necessarily mean she was sleeping with anyone-maybe she became best shopping buddies with someone else's girlfriend, for instance.
Plus it's not as though they're lining up to ask her to be godmother to their children; they just said that they're going to invite her to some parties. There are plenty of people that I party with that I wouldn't expect to, you know, move bodies for me. This applies whether they're talking about "partying" or just baby showers and holiday parties.
Like everyone else, I'd be interested in hearing the other side of the story.
Shannon at October 24, 2009 2:19 PM
I am suspicious of all of it.
As others stated, we only have one side of the story and Amy was all over that.
Just giving benefit of the doubt that the girl was the one who insisted on the home improvements and am sort of skeptical there. That could really be either way.
The "friends" thing gives me pause. As others noticed, they probably are not friends the way the rest of us define them. Just people the guy talks to and now they talk to her too. Plus all of the guys who want to be and may already be involved with her.
Letters to Amy make me appreciate not having to be out there in that finding someone scene any more.
Suki at October 24, 2009 4:59 PM
I'll say it again, why on earth should this girl feel obligated to pay for someone else's home improvement loan? Yeah, she was stupid enough to sign a piece of paper,"
Uhhh, because when you sign a promissory note and borrow money, you ARE expected to pay it back. legally, morally, every way. Whether or not you later decide that what you spent the money on wasn't worth it. What world do you live in?
momof4 at October 24, 2009 5:59 PM
momof4 the LW also signed the note and spent every penny of the money on himself. Presumably, he's still employed so why shouldn't he repay the money he borrowed?
I'd love to see him take her to court and explain to a judge why he should be allowed to default on a loan that was entirely for his benefit.
JoJo at October 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>>I'd love to see him take her to court and explain to a judge why he should be allowed to default on a loan that was entirely for his benefit.
If the LW is to be believed, she moved in and "demanded" improvements to where they live. They then borrowed the home improvement money from Granny (and both signed an agreement). As stated by another poster, what planet are you from that you think you get to walk away from a signed financial obligation simply because A) you don't want to be in the relationship and B) the money you spent benefited someone else more? Just as he should have known better that this was not Ms Right (and not to be trusted with access to his finances), she should have known better than to take out a loan to renovate a home that she was unsure she wanted to remain in. Both hard lessons to learn (but maybe good lessons for them both). Now could she sue to recoup this money when the condo is sold? Seems reasonable to me considering some of the improvements were paid by her.
Put another way, if she moved into a home with another person, used 10k on her credit card to improve the house (of her own free will), then decided she didn't want to live there, does she get to call up the credit company and say "I spent the 10K and it was more to the benefit of another. I should not have to pay!". LOL, seriously? She was stupid; he was stupid. They are young and this kind of stupidity happens especially to those with little life experience (but not exclusively to). Again, hopefully, this is a good lesson for them both.
TW at October 25, 2009 3:31 AM
The girlfriend didn't force the LW to remodel his house and he should pay his own debts. He's obviously not incapacitated.
If she'd paid through her own credit cards, and we don't know if some of her 40k debt was incurred that way, then she should sue for reimbursements.
When you co-sign a loan, you're doing someone a favor, and they shouldn't stiff you. He sounds like one of those "the world owes me a living types" who doesn't like to pay his own way.
Seriously, LOL, how much of a deadbeat do you have to be if your own MeeMaw demands a co-signer.
JoJo at October 25, 2009 7:11 AM
Jojo:Where the hell are you getting "slutty little tramp" from?
Point taken, I spoke out of line.
And you make an excellent point regarding Grandma asking for a signed note.
Makes me wonder what her letter to Amy would be like:
Dear Advice Goddess,
I was dating this guy, and he begged me to move in, he even promised to fix up his shitty condo. I stayed with him for a couple years- I was just out of college and trying to get on my feet. But I realized we'd never make it as a couple, so I moved out. And now he's trying to get me to pay for his condo renovation. Also, he's talking shit to our mutual friends, who by the way are glad I dumped him. Should I tell him to shut up, or just let it go?
-chick who the guy wrote the letter about
Or something like that.
sterling at October 25, 2009 9:55 AM
I'm a lawyer. If LW and grandma sue the ex for her half of the promissory note, I'll take on her case pro bono.
Gail at October 25, 2009 8:40 PM
The reason I'm on her side is because I was stupid enough to co-sign a car note for a relative, who then defaulted, didn't bother to tell me, and nearly wrecked my credit. My dear relative had absolutely no shame or guilt about stiffing me and it was quite a costly lesson.
I maintain that if you're the one who received the money, you should pay it back if humanly possible. At least in his case, he's getting the benefit of the money. If she'd spent it on herself of course I'd be in his corner.
JoJo at October 25, 2009 9:18 PM
The recent posters have made a good point - how bad are HIS finances if he needed his girlfriend (with her bad credit) and his grandmother to get a loan? Where losing $800 is enough for him to lose the condo? Did he seriously wipe out his savings for home renovations to please his girlfriend? Is grandma really forcing him to sell the condo or is there other debt that he "forgot" to mention? How were they saving for a bigger place if they were spending $20K in renovations for their current "temporary" condo?!
Chances are that wasn't the first financial miscalculation he's made. Neither of them sound smart about money. Not that I agree she gets to bail on a financial commitment she made or get away with stealing if that's truely what she did, but I doubt the letter writer is the hapless victim he paints himself as.
Either way, Amy's advice stands, he needs new friends, and hopefully the sort that will tell him when he's about to do something stupid like put his condo at risk by trying to buy his girlfriend's affection with stuff he can't afford.
Cam at October 27, 2009 5:07 AM
His depiction of the entire situation is fishy to me. Basically what he's done is to trash his ex and then, having garnered our sympathy, attempts to transfer this onto his complaint about his friends. It's a bait and switch.
His friends may not care to expel the ex because they know the real story and don't see it his way. For all we know he'd misrepresented the nature of grandma's loan and is now pressuring her to pay him $7500 for breaking up with him.
In my experience people, both men and women, who seek to tear down their ex's are more typically the cause of the problem in the relationship.
Mike at October 27, 2009 6:44 AM
It's been a while since I've lived in America. Unfortunately, it's been longer since I've been in my twenties. Still, do straight guys now care so much about interior decoration that they'll blow twenty grand on it? On a condo no less?
kevin_m at October 31, 2009 8:09 AM
Listen to Sterling. His post is right on! Be real about the whole thing. Get rid of the crappy friends who don't have a backbone to stand up for what is right! And that ex-girlfriend-You are lucky that she left! Really! Imagine spending the rest of your life with a woman with such addiction? Just divide the amount of money she cost you by the # of times she screwed you (in bed.) How does it work out? I'm not kidding! Get a better deal next time. Hopefully, you find a woman who is marriage material where you will never have to think like that. That chick is not marriage material...just a girlfriend! That's why you figure out the money to screw ratio. Also, what is the ratio of felatio? There are deadbeat girlfriends just like there are deadbeat boyfriends. You can get love somewhere else, from someone who really is marriage material. There are fewer woman with integrity than not. You need to have integrity to attract a woman with integrity. That comes with time /experience.
I was with a woman who owes more money than anyone else-No Joke! I don't mean 100-150K...I mean way more! She wanted me to co-sign for a house, and to put her name on "things." I DID NOT and have been told that I am the luckiest man around! I wonder who the next sucka will be! On to a new guy who needs it badly! Funny what we do for "love."
Take care of yourself. You have learned a hard lesson. Pay it off and clear your name.
Matthew P at November 1, 2009 7:19 AM
Classic! Nice job Amy, as always :-)
Ian at November 15, 2009 6:19 PM
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