Hope Against Nope
I've been seeing this guy for over two years. Although we spend lots of time together, we don't have a committed relationship. We've been off and on throughout this entire two-year "complexship," as I call it. Normally, we're fine until I start asking about us being more to each other. He then picks a fight and disappears. Out of the blue the other day, he told me I deserved more and said he didn't want to waste my time or make me miss out on somebody who could give me what I want. I told him I'm fine, and that I'm dating other people (I am). Still, I'm not sure why he brought it up if he didn't want to commit to me. I truly love him, and have since the moment we met. Do you think he'll ever be ready, or am I his "temp" till he finds someone permanent for the job?
--Stuck
You're about three blocks past "way too pathetic" when the stuff your girlfriends got sick of telling you -- "Dump him! He's just using you! You deserve better!" -- is coming from the guy you "deserve better" than. Amazingly, you take this as a sign he's ready to commit, rather than the obvious -- his guilt so overtook his self-interest that he's like the buzzard feeling sorry for the roadkill: "How 'bout I just have a few pecks of your hindquarters and then be on my way?"
Not surprisingly, you need to fancy up two years of hanging around not getting what you want by calling this a "complexship." It isn't complex in the slightest: You want a relationship with him; he doesn't want one with you, but he'll continue seeing you on what I call the Bag of Chips Principle, as in, if there's a bag of chips within a man's reach, he'll probably help himself to some.
To many, your situation might seem like a simple case of "He's just not that into you." And since you'd probably see a flicker of hope while blindfolded and being lowered head-first into a pitch-dark cesspool, let me make this perfectly clear: No, he's not. But, there's such a thing as readiness for a relationship. Finding the right person isn't enough. You have to have the right person at the right time. It's possible your guy hasn't been ready for anything serious with anyone. Instead of accepting that he can't give you what you want and waving goodbye, you most likely sealed the deal that he'll never be ready for you by being all over him like ants on potato salad. (Men don't want what comes easy to them, with the exception of "FREE BEER!")
But, wait, there are mitigating circumstances here! You "truly love him!" Great -- the universal excuse women give for doing something utterly stupid and self-destructive with a man. For a change of pace, show a little love for yourself. Take that old advice "If you love something, set it free." If it comes back to you, and comes back to you, and comes back to you, and still won't give you what you want, set it free again, and change the locks.
Ah, yes, another case of "I'm too much of a wimp to break up with you and be the bad guy so I'll just act like a total douche until you finally get tired of being treated like a doormat and dump me"-itis. I'm constantly amazed when women can't recognize the symptoms. The red, crusty, suppurating rash that defines this particular disease: he's TELLING you he can't give you what you want! He tells you that you can do better than him and he's wasting your time and you think that means he wants to commit to you? Really? It's like Pollyanna having a psychotic break.
The kicker: I truly love him, and have since the moment we met.
No, sweetheart, you didn't. You wanted a relationship, the actual personality of the guy be damned. Since boyfriend won't do it, you need to man up and end the suffering for the both of you. Then work on upping your standards.
Amy, this line is awesome: you'd probably see a flicker of hope while blindfolded and being lowered head-first into a pitch-dark cesspool.
Maybe it's because I just finished watching "The Power of Madonna," but that line is deliciously Sue Sylvester-like.
NumberSix at April 20, 2010 8:08 PM
This is awesome advice, Amy. I was in a similar situation to LW's once a long time ago, and I wish someone had told me what you said here.
kali at April 20, 2010 8:13 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/04/hope-against-no.html#comment-1709692">comment from kaliThank you so much, kali! Feel free to write if you need advice. My e-mail address is in the contact Amy section.
Amy Alkon at April 20, 2010 8:36 PM
[If it comes back to you, and comes back to you, and comes back to you, and still won't give you what you want, set it free again, and change the locks.]
Still laughing...
Chunks at April 21, 2010 12:13 AM
Wow. Just...wow. Even I was never that desperate! LW's got some serious work to do on herself. I kinda feel bad for her. She needs to be the butterfly, after she does some serious soul-searching!
Flynne at April 21, 2010 5:31 AM
How old is he? At 21, this behavior is still weak, but more typical. At 35, you simply should not bother speaking with him any longer.
You need to be more direct. You want a monogamous, close, committed relationship. Tell him that. And then tell him you understand he is not looking for that from you. Goodbye.
Then face the world alone until you find someone who wants what you want, and wants it with you.
Spartee at April 21, 2010 6:14 AM
Too funny, Amy. I love the opening.
"You're about three blocks past "way too pathetic" when the stuff your girlfriends got sick of telling you -- "Dump him! He's just using you! You deserve better!" -- is coming from the guy you "deserve better" than."
lovelysoul at April 21, 2010 6:53 AM
I'm not sure why women discount things that men tell them. I've seen this numerous times.
Guys don't speak in coded messages.
You said, he told me "I deserved more and said he didn't want to waste my time or make me miss out on somebody who could give me what I want.
He's saying I'm never going to commit to you. I like having sex with you but I'm not going to marry you.
Don't dismiss what he is saying. It will be a waste of time for you.
David M. at April 21, 2010 6:53 AM
Right after I split with my ex, I had a relationship kind of like this, except the guy was straight up with me from the very beginning that he wasn't interested in anything serious. I knew I wasn't ready for anything serious then either, so we embarked on a purely non-serious relationship. We watched movies, cooked dinner, and had amazing sex.
I'll admit that after it became physical, I waivered because it was so good...he was really sexy and good-looking, and an artist, which is a weakness of mine. I had a few fantasies that the fling might grow into something more, but, each time I pushed, he repeated his mantra: I don't want anything serious!"
Honestly, that relationship was good for me at the time because it kept me occupied and prevented me from getting too involved with anyone else on the rebound. My period of "chasing after Steve" was not only enjoyable but taught me a lot. And it restored my faith in male integrity because he never once led me on. He was always honest about the fact he was "wasting my time".
Once I was ready to have a real relationship, I moved on, but I still remember him fondly. It sounds like this guy is trying to be a stand-up guy too. He's telling her what she doesn't want to hear...and probably has been all along.
lovelysoul at April 21, 2010 7:13 AM
Free beer? Where?
Cousin Dave at April 21, 2010 7:17 AM
Okay, from what I can figure out, LW is miserable trying to do something she doesn't need to do, and has been told plainly that she won't do successfully no matter how hard she tries. Sounds to me like she ought to quit doing it.
But it's hard to give up hope -- maybe just this one last pull on the slot machine and it will all be worth it. I suspect lots of us have stories like that.
Unfortunately, Cousin Dave, it's just cyber-beer. Byteburger Pils, anyone?
old rpm daddy at April 21, 2010 7:36 AM
This reminds me of an episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Mary gets involved with a ski instructor purely for the "physical". She starts feeling guilty about not having a "relationship'. Finally, she apologizes to him for dating him only because she finds him physically attractive. He looks at her in astonishment and says "Of course, that's the only reason we are dating."
Sabba Hillel at April 21, 2010 8:27 AM
Yeah but I think a lot of the time, women are more prone to link physical intimacy with emotional attachment. That men aren't as emotionally attached to the physical component of the relationship is not a concept that many women seem to be able to wrap their heads around.
Flynne at April 21, 2010 8:51 AM
Ugh. My best friend is doing this right now. He dated a woman, she cheated on him, has openly said that she's not interested in seeing him romantically, but still "wants to be friends," etc. All he does is get drunk, talk about her, pity himself, and pester her with embarrassing emails and phone calls (I've seen the emails at least, and they're totally cringe-worthy).
I've told him what I think; he's not interested in advice. I dread hanging out with him right now because he's so pitiful and needy.
Ugh.
no one in particular at April 21, 2010 9:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/04/hope-against-no.html#comment-1709808">comment from no one in particularHave him write to me. I'll straighten the poor boy out! Plus, I could use some fresh problems to write about.
Amy Alkon at April 21, 2010 9:25 AM
It's like Pollyanna having a psychotic break. Number six that was almost as good as Amy's blind fold line.
hisprincess at April 21, 2010 9:26 AM
Hmmm.
There is implicit in this story, question and answer the age-old shibboleth: Men should "pay" for sex. It should not be "easy" for men to have sex. Men should pay cash or equivalents, or sincere time and attention, for sex, or else the woman is a "loser."
No wonder men keep lying. We like sex, but not entanglements.
Ultimately, there are two times when lying is morally justified: In defense of nation, or to delude women into bed.
BOTU at April 21, 2010 10:28 AM
Great advice as usual Amy, but I especially like the line, "Finding the right person isn't enough. You have to have the right person at the right time." That's something that I think a lot of people (including myself!!) don't always remember, and it's always good to see a reminder that sometimes it's not you and it's not him, it's just circumstances outside everyone's control.
Shannon at April 21, 2010 7:19 PM
"No, sweetheart, you didn't. You wanted a relationship, the actual personality of the guy be damned. Since boyfriend won't do it, you need to man up and end the suffering for the both of you. Then work on upping your standards."
How does this happen? Upping one's standards, that is? And I'm not trying to be funny. If you want to teach someone the intricate, timely task of upping standards when you've been used to a lower level, what physical first steps do they take (outside of therapy) to start this?
kg at April 21, 2010 7:36 PM
If you want to teach someone the intricate, timely task of upping standards when you've been used to a lower level, what physical first steps do they take (outside of therapy) to start this?
I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I believe this applies to all of life. You have to figure out what you want and why you want what you want. I've always thought that the what isn't nearly as important as the why. With dating, this starts with why you want a man (or woman, as the case may be) in the first place. If you want a relationship because you feel like you're not enough of a person without one, then you're probably doomed to either failure or a life of silent suffering with a partner you shouldn't be with. I think this was the case in LW's relationship. She claims she "truly love[ed] him" from the moment they first met. I call shenanigans on that. She needs to figure out what's really important to her in a relationship, or, as Amy likes to say, her dealbreakers. Motives are always key.
As far as steps to take, I think Amy's example of her own life is a good one (if I may borrow it for a moment). She's said before that she was single for quite some time while she figured out what she wanted and then found a man that met those standards. LW needs to examine her motives for being in a relationship and be single for a little while. Then, when she does start dating, she needs to not immediately assign the guy all the qualities she's decided she wants. You only set yourself up for disappointment doing that. Go on a date and just enjoy the dating without needing this guy to be a long-term commitment. Actually, I think that's the thing: want a boyfriend, don't need one. If you need to be with a man, then you've already decided that you're not enough by yourself. Do things for you: learn a language, take piano lessons, get into woodworking. As trite as it sounds, if you become a more fulfilled version of yourself, you'll be in the right frame of mind for a healthy relationship and you won't think you have to settle for a loser.
NumberSix at April 21, 2010 8:35 PM
You know the guy in your trig class who had that obsessive, pathetic crush on you back in college? The one who thought a single stray smile from you was The Beginning of your relationship? Who could see you with your boyfriend at a party Friday night and rebound with fresh hope, tentative smiles and lames jokes on Monday morning?
Well, LW, you are now this guy. (Except, of course, you're actually having sex, which is a darn sight better than that guy in trig class ever got.)
kevin_m at April 22, 2010 4:45 AM
She is 'desperate' for more commitment from him. She insists that she's ready to commit wholly to him, and to prove it, she's dating other guys.
If I were in a fairly casual relationship with a woman who on one hand kept demanding the ultimate commitment, but on the other was dating or screwing other guys, I don't think I would be entirely convinced by her remonstrations that she was ready for the 'rest of our lives' scenario.
FD at April 22, 2010 5:45 AM
"If you want to teach someone the intricate, timely task of upping standards when you've been used to a lower level, what physical first steps do they take (outside of therapy) to start this?"
kg, I've been there. The key to this is that if you are settling for unsatisfactory in your relationships, you are probably also settling for unsatisfactory in other areas of life. You need to raise your standards generally. You have to start doing some of the following:
* Your food at the restaurant wasn't made the way you ordered it? Send it back!
* The mortgage company charged you a late fee, even though you have the cancelled check showing that they cashed it two days before the due date? Complain, and don't take no for an answer!
* You got an unacceptable review at work, and you don't agree with some of the points made? Talk to your manager!
Of course, you don't want to be nasty about doing any of these things, but you do want to assert your dignity. Learning the difference between "assertive" and "aggressive" is key for people in this situation.
Another thing you learn to do is to stop denying yourself everything. If you've always wanted to try skydiving but never worked up the nerve... well, now's the time! Have you always wanted to play guitar? Go buy one and get some lessons! Of course, you don't want to go crazy, but that usually isn't a problem for people in this situation... it's the opposite problem that they have, where they never doing anything for themselves.
Cousin Dave at April 22, 2010 7:24 AM
As always, the clue is in the "off & on" nature of the liaison. The LW says this herself, has accepted that it has never been a committed relationship, and so, it has gone stagnant on that point. Although it takes 2 to make a relationship grow and blossom, she has no one to blame but herself, since she is so willing to accept less than 100%.
Her b/f has outright told her that he is not the one for her, so she has no one to blame for the lost time / effort but herself. Is she both deaf and dumb?
Two years is not a lot of lost time; she should move on immediately. He is not your match, especially since he is telling you this himself! But he will most assuredly keep making booty calls for as long as you allow it.
Ask yourself this: why do you want someone who doesn't want you?
Bluejean Baby at April 22, 2010 9:37 AM
This isn't Tiger's wife hearing she had a commitment. That was a problem. This is someone hearing she doesn't have a commitment.
She's got an honest answer. This isn't a problem, it's a disappointment.
MarkD at April 22, 2010 1:40 PM
The key to this is that if you are settling for unsatisfactory in your relationships, you are probably also settling for unsatisfactory in other areas of life.
So, so true, Dave. Doormat Syndrome extends throughout all of life. With the recent passing of Dixie Carter (a fine, fine lady from my home state), I'm reminded of Julia Sugarbaker. Take a page from her book and don't set yourself up to be pushed around. We'd all be better off with a little of the Terminator in us.
NumberSix at April 22, 2010 2:24 PM
You're almost entirely correct Miss Alkon with one adendum:
We also don't mind getting easy sex.
Robert at April 22, 2010 3:56 PM
"I told him I'm fine, and that I'm dating other people (I am). Still, I'm not sure why he brought it up if he didn't want to commit to me. I truly love him"
You answered your own question; he brought it up because you aren't 'fine' with it. Who are you kidding? You want him, and he knows that, and he doesn't really want you. Of course he'll hang around if he's getting some easy sex, as Robert says. But this isn't going to work. He's told you as much, you just don't want to hear it. It has nothing to do with "being ready".
Lobster at April 22, 2010 5:22 PM
"She insists that she's ready to commit wholly to him, and to prove it, she's dating other guys."
It's almost as if she's dating other guys just to 'prove' to him that she's "fine" with what they have in order not to scare him off totally. As though she's assuaging his guilt. If so that's pretty sad, when you think about it. Love makes you do stupid things, and blinds you to the absurdity of them.
Lobster at April 22, 2010 5:27 PM
kevin_m: "You know the guy in your trig class who had that obsessive, pathetic crush on you ..."
I had just such a crush on someone back in school ... only I assumed that it was 'just' an unrequited pathetic crush. I recently reconnected with her and learned that she would've gone out with me if I'd just asked her out. Funny thing, life. I'm sure it's the exception though.
Lobster at April 22, 2010 5:37 PM
Finding the right person isn't enough. You have to have the right person at the right time.
This is dead on.
This guy sounds like a decent dude. He likes having sex with the LW. He probably even likes the LW quite a lot, or he wouldn't have said anything. But he doesn't want more than easy sex and a good time. Guys who love you don't tell you to leave them and find other men.
Maybe he'll want a long time relationship with someone in a few years, or 20 years, or never, but do you really want to stick around indefinitely and hope you're the one for him?
MonicaP at April 22, 2010 6:03 PM
This guy sounds like a decent dude.
That's what I think, too. His biggest sin here (from what we know) has been that he's to wimpy to actually break up, probably because she's running so hot and cold about what she wants from the relationship. One minute she's desperate for him to commit to her, then the next she's dating someone else to show she's fine with what they have. Non-decent guys don't tell you that they can't give you what you want. Non-decent guys tell you whatever you want to hear to keep you around for sex and take-out. I think he started feeling guilty about accidentally stringing her along, even though it really wasn't all his fault. She latched herself onto his string as soon as they met.
NumberSix at April 22, 2010 8:49 PM
Good easy sex cause alot of guys to put up with crap they normally would not bother with. If LW keeps her panties on the guy will start singing a new tune, or will go elsewhere.
mike at April 23, 2010 9:42 AM
I knew when I wrote to Amy that I was going to receive feedback, not just from her but from others as well. That is fine and dandy, though now I feel the need to respond. First I will say, ok so it was not love at first but i was very smitten with him. I do have a list of deal breakers and things that I want from a man, and he has most of them. When we first started to hang out it was on the premise of "dating"/working towards a relationship. I was very clear on what I wanted. As time went on we would go through the whole up and down of it all. With me asking the questions and his response of bouncing. I have also at times ended things only to come back around. I have to say as sad as it sounds, the sex is amazing, not making excuses, I am just saying. At the time I wrote to Amy, we were dealing with each other and I was a ware of his pattern. I was dating other people but only having sex with him. I was fine with that. Then he wanted to start spending more time together that did not involve sex, which was a touch confusing. Then he starts bringing up these what are we doing questions. In response I told him nothing, and proceeded to mention that I was dating other people. I did not mention I was seeing other people to prove anything to him. At this point I was not focused on a relationship with him. I wrote to Amy to get another opinion on what I was thinking. I wasn't sure if he wanted more and was trying to gauge where I was, or if he was just trying to see if he needed to "be out". I was not looking for anything from him at that time. I like having sex with him and hanging out but just wanted to double check in a way i was not misreading what was going on. Also he wasn't always to "straight up" about what he wanted and when I told him I only wanted to have sex with him, he said he needed more than that from me. So because of all the mixed messages I just wanted to make sure I was on the right path with my thinking, so I asked Amy.
Also, I am usually not like this ( I know people always say it, but I am not). I am very assertive and so much so that sometimes my friends tell me I need to relax. I am also very hard on men, with the exception of "Mr. Good Sex". I am usually quick to size a man up and move on if he does not act accordingly or want what I want. I don't know why it was so hard to be this way with this guy, but it was. My friends would often comment on how I was not acting like myself and they could not get it. I am not afraid to be alone nor am I desperate. I just really liked him. We have fun together , we like to do the same things and we have similar backgrounds.
I have ended things with him and moved on. Thank you all for your comments and thoughts. I truly do appreciate them :-)
fiercechick at April 23, 2010 11:00 AM
Oh and women like great sex too. It's not just one sided.
fiercechick at April 23, 2010 11:21 AM
@ NumberSix- Are you reading the same thing that I wrote!? I am not the hot/cold one you speak of. I did not declare I was dating other people until 2 years deep into the situation. I was always the one saying I wanted to be together and I wanted more. GOH with that I am hot/cold nonsense. He has always been the one that once we started to spend more and more time together, decided that he couldn't talk to me anymore. Then would come back. He is the ill tempered one not me. Smh! I am not saying it's all his fault but I was always clear.
fiercechick at April 23, 2010 12:11 PM
I am glad you responded, fiercechick!
" . . . he wasn't always too "straight up" about what he wanted and when I told him I only wanted to have sex with him, he said he needed more than that from me. So because of all the mixed messages I just wanted to make sure I was on the right path with my thinking, so I asked Amy."
Come on people let's be honest! At some point in our lives, we will all come across at least one person who makes us feel so inexplicably in DEEP like and ready to try a relationship despite them telling you they don't want one. If someone spends considerable time with you outside of sex, it is easy to want more. Things get more complicated when someone is telling you I don't want a relationship followed by I need more from you.
BB1 at April 23, 2010 12:16 PM
GOH with that I am hot/cold nonsense.
You don't think that dating other people while at the same time desperately wanting a commitment from your boyfriend would be a touch confusing? I am not saying you were the ill-tempered one (though this makes the boyfriend ill-tempered? You never mentioned that.), but by "running hot and cold" I meant that you were sending mixed signals about what you wanted from the relationship. One minute you were fine with what you had (or wanted to make him think you were, thus the dating other people), then the next you were looking at everything he said for signs he wanted to commit to you. You can claim that you were clear about everything, but you were tacitly telling him that the status quo was fine by still being with him. You only started to be really clear about what you absolutely needed from the relationship (despite your claim that he met most of your dealbreakers) when you dumped him.
NumberSix at April 23, 2010 12:35 PM
I didn't send mixed signals. I always told him I wanted more, and every time I did he would disappear for like a month and then come back, saying that he missed spending time with me. The very last time we "got back" together with one another, I decided to leave things alone, just enjoy the time we spend and leave it at that. He was the one that started having the whole "what are we doing?" conversation and the "Am I wasting your time?" stuff. After the 3rd conversation like this in 4 days, that he started, I then asked him what he wanted. He said we were at a point where either it would fade out or become a relationship. I asked which he wanted, and he had no response. He also stated that this was the point in the situation where he normally disappears. I asked was he going to disappear and he said "not this time." So after all those confusing talks, I was asked if I was alright with things and only at this point did I mention I was seeing other people. He was always under the impression that I was only seeing him. He has never been my boyfriend.
fiercechick at April 23, 2010 1:11 PM
I didn't send mixed signals.
But you did, by stating what you wanted from him and then settling for less every time you got back together. You told him you wanted more, but you didn't want it enough to tell him you couldn't see him anymore. You decided to be okay with what you had, even though you "always told him [you] wanted more." This was not the relationship you wanted, but still you took him back time after time.
I'm glad you've shed some light on your boyfriend's process, because he sounds like the Waffle King, which was doubtless confusing to you when you were trying to make up your mind. But you can't fix him; you can only state what you need from him and then back it up by not getting back with him every time he comes back from one of his disappearances. That's in the past, now, though, since you've ended things with him. I think that's best for both of you, because you get to move on and he gets to (with any luck) learn how to be a man about the relationship thing.
I wish you better luck (and better access to your assertiveness) in your next relationship.
NumberSix at April 23, 2010 8:25 PM
The occam's razor answer - he is also dating others, but with sex included. He comes back to you when things are not going well with the others or for a change of pace. Then when he's had enough of you, he goes to them. Maybe he even likes you more than the others, which is why he sends confusing messages, but he prefers to have both/all, rather than commit to one. Nice set up for him, as long as it lasts.
arete at April 24, 2010 12:01 AM
I see your point with the settling NumberSix.
Thanks for the luck. Yes, having the assertiveness is nothing, if you don't exercise it across the board. lol @ "Waffle King".
fiercechick at April 24, 2010 1:16 PM
I think the guy was definitely having sex with other women, but didn't like the idea of having to share his FB. The male territorial obsession I guess. The lesson learned here is don't bother having any kind of discussions with your FB, just have fun, don't talk, and make him/her leave after the fun's over.
Chrissy at April 24, 2010 2:31 PM
Hmm. Hard on men generally, but a sucker for this one?
Sounds like you went after a male other women would also find attractive, and those guys tend to have options when it comes to gals. That is, they have the opportunity to get sex without having to trade commitment and exclusivity.
If you want an A-list guy, there is often a cost.
Spartee at April 26, 2010 7:02 AM
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