Not Wanton Any
I started seeing this amazing guy, but had to initiate most of the making out. He soon dumped me, saying he has little experience and was freaking out. (He's 40, and has only had three girlfriends.) We got back together, but he still wasn't initiating, and six months in, still hadn't had sex with me. After a perfect date, I told him I wanted to make love to him. He said he wasn't up for that kind of attachment, hightailed it out of my place, and ended it again. We're friends now, but I've fallen totally in love with him. I can tell he's attracted to me, but my friends think he's gay or sexually dysfunctional. I told him I wouldn't care about the latter. He's too great to walk away from. He gets my weird artwork and disturbing humor, and we work great together on art projects. I'm considering making my upcoming 40th birthday my deadline and telling him what I REALLY want. If he cannot commit or initiate sex, I'm leaving! Right?
--Frustrated
There are some subtle signs that somebody's attracted to you: dilated pupils, flushed face, heavier breathing, taking off out the back door like somebody fired the gun at the beginning of a track meet...
It is possible that you mumbled when propositioning the guy, and your "I want to make love to you!" sounded exactly like "Did I mention that terrorists planted a bomb under my couch, and it's timed to go off at any moment?" But, chances are, the truth is exactly as it seems: While you're dying to get him into bed, he'd rather get into a cannon with a lit fuse.
Yes, maybe he's gay, maybe his man parts are on the fritz, or maybe he's less interested in sex than in being slowly eaten alive by fire ants. The why of this is unimportant; what matters is that you want something that he can't provide. Great, he likes the same weird artwork, but don't be looking to him for anything racier than an afternoon of fully clothed collage-making ("Want the glue stick?" being a euphemism for "Want the glue stick?").
Come on, you know that continuing to demand sex and commitment from this guy is dumb -- dumb like sitting yourself down in a vegan restaurant and refusing to leave until they bring you barbequed ribs with a side of hog cracklins. You've latched onto the common excuse for this sort of self-destructive behavior: "Help, I've fallen in love, and I can't get up!" There's a good chance you are in love -- with the chase. You avoid admitting that this is a lost cause by clinging to "This would be so perfect, if only..." Yes, if only he were somebody totally different -- a man who can't wait to have sex with you instead of a man who probably redresses you with his eyes: Show cleavage, and he'll mentally put you in a poncho.
For your birthday, give yourself the gift of living while fully conscious. Identify men who are broken, pat them on the head, and send them on their way. The weirder your sensibilities, the harder it'll be to find a boyfriend who shares them. Maybe you can't, but maybe you can make a bunch of friends who do. Relationships always require compromise, but there's trying to make it work with a guy who likes sex in the morning when you like it in evening -- and there's trying to make it work with one who likes it on February 30th.
We're friends now, but I've fallen totally in love with him.
Big mistake. If he can't be intimate with you, why be infatuated with him? Leave this guy and find somebody who wants your body enough to overcome his own insecurities and actually make love with you.
Meanwhile, maybe this idiot will get some therapy (because he sooooo needs it), so that the next time a woman wants him, he can actually deliver the goods. Unfortunately, it'll have to be with another woman, but it's not as though there'll be a difference w.r.t. you.
mpetrie98 at September 7, 2010 9:01 PM
Hmmm...a woman who desperately wants what she can't have. Maybe we should hook her up with Mr. Creepo-Restaurant-Stalker?
Algaechild at September 7, 2010 9:40 PM
"This would be so perfect, if only..." Yes, if only he were somebody totally different
Nailed it! Once you catch the deadly "if only" virus, it's done for!
Gspotted at September 7, 2010 11:34 PM
(He's 40, and has only had three girlfriends.)
That's no excuse. I'm 36 and I've only had 4 girlfriends (mostly long term, granted she doesn't say whether his were brief relationships or not), and if someone I was attracted to was begging me into bed I wouldn't be holding back for a second. Number of partners does not affect whether you're able to be intimate with someone. Being screwed up about sex does that.
We're friends now, but I've fallen totally in love with him.
I'm considering making my upcoming 40th birthday my deadline and telling him what I REALLY want. If he cannot commit or initiate sex, I'm leaving! Right?
I'm confused - you're friends, but if you don't get what you want you're leaving? Leaving what exactly? You're not together now. Forget the deadline, tell him now and if the answer is no then you can move on - with him as your friend if you want - but with someone else to hold you in bed.
Ltw at September 8, 2010 2:09 AM
and six months in, still hadn't had sex with me.
I can tell he's attracted to me
???
Ltw at September 8, 2010 2:18 AM
He's probably attracted as a friend, not as a lover. If you have a lot in common, he probably likes you a lot and maybe confuses that with romantic liking, but it isn't. Sounds like someone cool to hang with but not to date.
NicoleK at September 8, 2010 4:31 AM
@MPetrie98: "Meanwhile, maybe this idiot will get some therapy (because he sooooo needs it)..."
Well, that's a little much, don't you think? From the information we're given, the only thing "wrong" with this guy is that he doesn't dig the letter writer that much, and hasn't got the guts to tell her outright. Stressing LW's ego hardly seems like grounds for treatment.
As for the LW, she needs to understand that you won't always get what or who you set out to get, and that's just the way things are. Nothing personal, nothing wrong with it, it's just life. People approaching 40 should know that.
Old RPM Daddy at September 8, 2010 5:32 AM
Maybe he doesn't like the way she smells.
ahw at September 8, 2010 5:36 AM
Must I bring up a harsh possibility: Maybe she is unattractive and not in his league? Perhaps he finds her company worth the time, but is trying to avoid touching her, because he likes his gals thinner/thicker/taller/shorter/whatever?
Turning down unattractive female friends who want sex is often part of being a guy who has female friends. Gals often experience this too, from what I understand, and have to explain to guys they are in the "friend zone".
In her mind, they may have had this romance and attachment, whereas in his mind, they were just hanging out, and she keeps trying to turn it into a love affair.
Spartee at September 8, 2010 5:54 AM
This letter sounds like it was written by someone of about 22, not 40. Grow up, woman, and stop trying to force yourself on the uninterested.
I love how she assumes he must be gay or sexually dysfunctional because he doesn't want to jump into bed with her! Maybe he's just not that into you. Maybe you reek of desperation.
Thag Jones at September 8, 2010 6:01 AM
February 30? Actually there could be such a day.
http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/calendar.html
Professor Dick Henry suggests a calendar reform in which all months follow the pattern of 30, 30, 31 in each quarter so that the year has 364 days. Thus, each year would be 364 days and there would be a "leap week" or a "leap month" of 28 days, so that each month would start on the same day of the week every year. Professor Henry has suggested this so that religious people would not have to move the day of worship every year as they would in other suggestions. He is trying to get it adopted for Sunday, Januar 1, 2012.
For example, there is one which would have Saturday, December 31 followed by a day that has no number and is treated as not part of a week. That day would be followed by "Sunday", January 1, so that Christians would have to take off and go to church on "Saturday", Jews would have to observe "Friday", and "Muslims "Thursday".
Sabba Hillel at September 8, 2010 6:16 AM
A fixer upper? A project? A rescue? You might think it's okay now but if you're like women I've seen in the past... when you can't fix him you will turn on him, blame him, torment him, resent him and then say it's all his fault.
If he turns out to be gay. You'll probably say "I didn't know he was gay" when all the writing was on the wall.
You should invest your time in someone whose parts work for you.
David M. at September 8, 2010 6:22 AM
Fag hag + fag. The end.
Razor at September 8, 2010 7:38 AM
He may be gay, but frankly not all straight men are willing to boink all women, not even all reasonably attractive women.
This may well be a textbook case of "He's not that into you." If he's not gay and he is into you, but still unwilling to boink you, he's so troubled you need to run a mile. Never hook up with a man for whom you'll play shrink more than courtesan.
Dana at September 8, 2010 8:54 AM
Unless he's some anti-premarital-sex religion?
NicoleK at September 8, 2010 10:42 AM
He's not attracted to you. I'm not sure what makes to you think he is, but you're making a fool of yourself.
I'm with Amy. You're not in love with him, you're in love with the chase. You're intrigued that this guy, who seems so perfect for you, hasn't made a move. I'd bet my eyeteeth that if this guy declared his love, you'd be out the door faster that he could say, "Do you have a condom?"
I've been there, obsessing over a guy that seemed to be (and said he was) attracted to me, but wouldn't move out of the friend zone. My guess is that he liked keeping me around for the ego boost and figured that giving me that spark of hope that we'd someday be more than friends was the only way to ensure my continued devotion.
When I finally got tired of the one way street, I cut him off. No calls, no texts, nada. He never contacted me. He was only willing to put as much into it as I was.
Try it.
Beth at September 8, 2010 5:38 PM
Rather surprised to see Amy's rather harsh comments reserved for the guy espescially considering the fact that she is one of the few people who actually cares about men and their problems. Amy, you are making such harsh statements based purely on this woman's perception of things and not getting the other side of the story which is so unlike you. Besides, the guy may have legit reasons for not being that into this woman which this woman will obviously not tell. Besides, I don't see anything wrong with a guy who has had just 3 girlfriends in 40 years of existence. When did guys come to be measured by the number of girlfriends that they had in their life?
To the woman who sent this - Face it, you are probably not worth it and the guy is probably way out of your league. Maybe you got to start having some reasonable expectations from life instead of expecting what you want when you want it. Grow up and learn to accept that things do not always go the way you want instead of being a baby and throwing tantrums
Red at September 9, 2010 4:23 AM
"I'm considering making my upcoming 40th birthday my deadline and telling him what I REALLY want. If he cannot commit or initiate sex, I'm leaving! Right?"
I love the way she says "OR" between commit or initiate sex. She'll take either one.
The guys are right here. 3 girlfriends isn't a bad number, and at least proves he's had girlfriends. If he was interested in her, he'd make her the fourth.
lovelysoul at September 9, 2010 7:33 AM
i like how her automatic assumption is he's gay or impotent if he's not interested in sex (with her)
try saying no to your female significant other a couple of times in a row and watch her self-destruct
why do some women (i'd say most or even all but i have no credible source to quote) seem to feel we should always be ready to bonk whenever they feel like it and if we don't there's something wrong with us, them or the relationship LOL
and be highly offended if we were to suggest they should drop trou whenever we want them to because if not then there must be something wrong with them. just man up and wait til i'm ready
theOtherJim at September 9, 2010 10:07 AM
"Harsh comments reserved for the guy"?
His behavior reflects that he's not interested or able to be involved with her, for whatever reason, and my answer reflected that.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 5:49 PM
theOtherJim, it's because women get a lot of messages in life that guys are always ready for sex, even with unattractive women. That guys will do anyone, anytime, even if she's hideously ugly. So if a guy DOESN'T want to do a woman, the implication is that she is beyond hideously ugly, she is absolutely grotesque.
Of course, in real life its not true, guys aren't always horny, even for attractive people, all the time.
But it is what women absorb from pop culture.
NicoleK at September 10, 2010 12:01 AM
Is it his behaviour or this woman's claims about his behaviour which may be just a half truth for all you know? Maybe this woman has something which puts off this guy which she is oblivious to. But then, I guess in this profession, things have to be taken at face value and as the gospel truth on the basis of which to dispense advice otherwise you would just get bogged down in investigation and would never be able to dispense the advice, but I still think this is rather harsh on the guy based on just a one sided picture painted by someone. Besides, guys have financial implications for getting involved with women in any way in their lives which may also be keeping him from fully getting involved with her. If you had mentioned that, it might have been a bit more reassuring and may have given the woman a direction of maybe addressing one of the biggest pain points which guys have with women. Overall, it would have been better if you could have kept things reasonable along the lines of your "How To Pick Up Gorillas" column(funny, but not implicating anyone in the process)
Red at September 10, 2010 3:16 AM
He's been dating her for several months with no expectation of sex. I've never known a sexually functioning straight guy to pursue a relationship with a woman he's NOT attracted to UNLESS he's getting sex out of the deal.
I am curious, though: Can any man tell me why he would?
Insufficient Poison at September 10, 2010 5:17 AM
Maybe he is getting money. Women pursue men mostly for money and nothing else...so it is only fair that men pursue women for the same thing. And maybe one female company to at least stay on par with his friends.
Red at September 10, 2010 7:40 AM
@ - insufficient poison
there do exist men who are physically able to perform but just aren't interested. sometimes it's a permanent condition and sometimes it's just because he needs a break
i personally know a great guy (women love him) who went through 7 years of misery in a complete train wreck of a marriage with the queen of hell. he still likes women and their company but has no interest whatsoever in pursuing a physical LTR with one. he's just completely turned off to it now. i asked him about it and he has dated off and on over the years but now he doesn't even bother with that. he seems happy and his 2 boys are happy and well-adjusted (he raised them alone)
i know another decent guy who divorced a very bitter hateful woman a year ago - she's still trying to hurt him every chance she gets through their kids. he dated a few women since then but right now he says he just wants a break from them
then again there are quite a few men who just don't have much of a sex drive but still want and need love and companionship. if they can find a woman who feels the same more power to them :)
theOtherJim at September 10, 2010 11:21 AM
i should add that i know men who have gotten into physical relationships (i count myself in that group) and as they got to know their partner more and more they wanted to sleep with them less and less
once you begin to realise just how hideous INSIDE a few people are it just kills your lust and all you can think about is running for the nearest exit
theOtherJim at September 10, 2010 11:32 AM
@Beth. I agree with you. He's not that into her, but for whatever reason, her presence is feeding him in some way. My question is why is HE continuing to spend time with her? She's in love with the chase, but what's he in love with? The atention, probably.
There are people like that out there (and they come in both genders). They sense the vulnerability or desperation in others and then do their best to cultivate it and feed off it. It's why sensible people avoid dating soon after a break-up--they instinctively feel vulnerable and want to give themselves a chance to heal.
I was fresh out of a break-up when a really cute guy at work started paying attention to me. Luckily I was warned about him. He was one of these flirty, touchy/feely types, who, in my opinion, actively cultivated a reputation for breaking hearts. Once I figured that out, I kept my distance and now he's a bit mean and nasty with me. Probably because I didn't let come close enough to do any damage! And, of course, he was living with a girlfriend the entire time he seemed "interested" in me.
And, before I get bashed for being sexist, I know a few attractive women out there who go in for this sort of thing too. It's like a bad habit--playing headgames with the opposite sex--and in my opinion, shows a degree of contempt and hatred for whatever that opposite sex happens to be. And a person who's capable of feeling that degree of contempt and hatred (for men or women) is someone to be avoided at all costs.
Wasting six months on this guy means the LW needs to ask herself if being in love with "the chase" is enough. I think there's something a masochistic going on with her.
ie at September 11, 2010 12:06 PM
I've been in the guy's unfortunate situation a few times, with women I didn't feel romantic toward, but who I enjoyed as friends. I had fun with them, going dancing, to ball games, having a couple of beers, etc. Unfortunately, in all cases, they ended up wanting to date me, but I didn't feel the same. I just wanted to keep them as friends.
One could not accept the situation, got angry with me, and ceased contact. This was probably for the best, and at least it was honest.
The other two pretended to accept my feelings and said they'd be okay with being platonic friends. But they were just biding their time, and of course every time I split up with a woman I was dating, they'd make sure I knew they were "available." It got annoying enough that I just ceased contact with both of them.
The LW should take the first course (minus the anger) and stop making an idiot of herself.
MikeInRealLife at September 11, 2010 4:57 PM
@Mike, ever ask yourself why this is happening to you so often? (At least you're making it sound like it has happened often.)
When I was young and hot (well, that's in the eye of the beholder, but you get my drift), I had a few of the friends/not quite friends guys in my life too.
Then, I remember sitting at my kitchen table--I had just turned 30--and realized I was acting like a jerk. That I was passively allowing some of these guys to pursue me. I too had told them I wasn't interested, but my words didn't match my behaviour (very sly of me, I know) and that kept their attention coming. It fed my ego and when I looked in the mirror, I saw the same kind of narcissist I claimed to dislike. Not a pretty picture even if I had a pretty face.
(And please no responses about how women "get serious" about finding a mate at 30--I've never married and never planned to, so there.)
Anyhow, I realized it was probably a symptom of my fear of committment, so I vowed to stop and I did. After that, if I got a sense a man was interested (and let's face it, we always know), I would draw a really clear boundary--usually I would drop into the conversation something about how I was attracted to someone else, which was always true--and then I would NOT, I repeat NOT, play "friends" with the guy. Once I got the maturity bug, I realized it would be like hanging out with someone who picked their nose. There would be something oh-so-mildly repulsive about it, even if there was nothing repulsive about the individual himself. I just got that "ick" feeling, ya know?
I should also say had a few guys call me on my behaviour, which, in hindsight, did me a world of good.
ie at September 11, 2010 5:26 PM
ie, that's an interesting story. I've been that guy a few times, and have gone through a bit of pain over it. And have noted that quite a few women like the attention and encourage it. These days, my dividing line is simple - does this person care about me enough to be there when I need help? Or is it all about free drinks, dinner, and company when it suits her? It can work - I'm in a situation like that now with a much younger girl who knows I like her, and has been very honest about her feelings towards me, which were initially romantic but she decided against. But we're still very close friends. Of course I hope she'll change her mind - but that's an indulgence I allow myself, it doesn't stop me from dating others and it's not bothering her (because I don't make it her problem or whine about it) so where's the harm? On the other hand, there was another female "friend" that I was attracted to who treated me as an ersatz boyfriend to keep her company between relationships - and I stupidly obliged - she is gone from my life for exactly the reasons you describe.
But it's hard to get right. Well done for realising that "I too had told them I wasn't interested, but my words didn't match my behaviour" is not cool. They share some of the blame though, they should have known better.
Ltw at September 11, 2010 10:34 PM
Insufficient Poison, are there no men and women who are friends in your universe? 'Cause I've been friends with many men, both before and since getting married, and I'm quite certain many of them were straight. We did friend stuff, you know, like watching a vid, having a beer, talking. While I was not/am not model-gorgeous, neither was I/am I entirely unfortunately looking. It really is possible for men and women to be friends.
Dana at September 12, 2010 11:13 AM
THIS line right here is the big red flag:
"He soon dumped me, saying he has little experience and was freaking out."
40 Year Old Virgin?
Shannon at September 12, 2010 3:19 PM
I don't think that there needs to be a lot of wild conjecture involved in the simple determination that he doesn't want to sleep with her. She assumes he should, though he's demonstrated that he doesn't.
Like others have mentioned, women often don't have a good read on men's sexuality. They assume that we'll fuck anything, and some men will, but most won't.
It's quite possible that this guy is attracted to her personality, but not physically attracted to her. I suspect that if he were presented with a woman that he really found physically attractive, that he'd go for it.
I'm the same age as the LW and have run into a few situations like this, where I found a woman's personality attractive, but wasn't physically attracted to her. So I'd date her for a while to see if that might change, but it never did. Maybe the LW's boyfriend has been doing the same, or trying to get there.
But I agree that his behavior is inappropriate - running away, breaking up, leading her on. His problem may derive from immaturity more so than some bizarre sexual dysfunction.
Dr. Marty at September 13, 2010 10:11 AM
@ie, it's happened those three times, at least in recent memory. Maybe I did in some way unintentionally mislead these women, but I don't know how. Physical contact was never more than a quick hug and, hell, I man-hug many of my guy friends too.
Does doing things I'd also do with a man imply some kind of romantic feeling - like having a beer, or watching a ball game? Perhaps dancing is different, and maybe women see all dancing through the prism of Oscar Wilde ("Dancing is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire."). But I've also danced with my mother, my sister, my aunt, my daughter and a gay male friend - and I certainly don't want to date any of them!
I like women, was basically raised by women, and generally prefer their company to that of most men. But clearly at least some women think that just because a man enjoys their platonic company, he should also want to be romantic/sexual with them. Unfortunately for them, the real world doesn't work that way.
MikeInRealLife at September 13, 2010 12:37 PM
Haven't any of you seen "4- Year Old Virgin"?
Ferber at September 13, 2010 7:36 PM
There's a number of reasons he could be like this. In addition to the abusive ex's successful libido-kill, I changed anti-depressants, and since then, I'm pretty much indifferent to sex.
Adding to that the fact that I really never learned how to "initiate" without feeling like a creep, and you end up with 7 year dry spells.
I have a friend that I "date", also with a history of an ugly divorce. We're not intimate, and it seems we're both happy to doze off while cuddling on the couch.
It could be a number of other things, from something simple that's killing his arousal, to a history of abuse, or a fear of sinking into a bad relationship. Talking to him might go a long way, and I'm sure that letting him know that he's safe to open up to you, or to make mistakes will help. I'm guessing that many of us could use some encouragement, some happy medium between "WTF are you DOING?" and "DO ME NOW YOU BASTARD!"
Gretz at September 16, 2010 7:09 PM
i should add that i know men who have gotten into physical relationships (i count myself in that group) and as they got to know their partner more and more they wanted to sleep with them less and less
once you begin to realise just how hideous INSIDE a few people are it just kills your lust and all you can think about is running for the nearest exit
I'm a woman and I've done that a few times too. Not fun! Which is why it's best not to start with the sex, no matter how much fun it is at the beginning.
Thag Jones at September 17, 2010 8:57 PM
I know I'm late to this one, but when the LW said the guy bolted when she tried to initiate intimacy the first thing that came to mind is that he was sexually abused at some point in his younger days and hasn't yet dealt with the pain and other long-term affects.
Men who suffer sexual abuse generally have greater shame than their female counterparts.
Brian at September 28, 2010 9:55 AM
Leave a comment