Legume Squad
I'm online dating again, but I'm now a vegetarian and gluten intolerant. Should I mention this in my profile, or just break the news gently on our first date? I think I can accept a man who eats meat. (I'd say my desire to find a great guy is greater than my fear of the occasional bloody steak on the barbeque.) But, is it reasonable to request a man who only eats meat once or twice a day, four times a week, max?
--Animal Lover
Why did the Tofurkey cross the road? Of course, to beg somebody to eat it. And, of course, they had to call that vegan dessert "Soy Delicious," yet nobody has to sell steak by calling it "Steak Delicious." Not surprisingly, there are a lot of animal lovers out there who especially love animals with a side of potatoes. Can you sit across from one while he tears into a nice, juicy piece of cow, and are you really looking forward to that long, slow, hamburger-flavored kiss goodnight?
You do say you "think" you can accept a man who eats meat, but that's about wanting to widen your dating pool. Two sentences later, you're narrowing it back down, suggesting that a meat-muncher should feel free to make you sick, disgusted, and morally outraged, but only "once or twice a day, four times a week, max." Come on. If all you can stomach is a man who eats a diet fit for a sheep, say so in your profile. But, whatever you do, omit mention of specific dietary issues like gluten intolerance, or you'll sound picky and annoying. And, quite frankly, nobody needs to know the intricacies of your bile duct or your small intestine before the first date.
As for news to break "gently" on the first date, that would be stuff like "I have five months to live," not "I can't eat wheat." Don't worry -- nobody's going to force-feed you a cookie. Just order your tofu patty "no bun," and move on to finding out what you and your date have in common -- beyond being the sort of people who not only stop and smell the flowers, but enjoy grazing on them afterward.
I've been given this reason - she was vegetarian and I love meat - as part of a laundry list of trivialities covering music preferences, wardrobe (mine of course), colour of the walls in my house (seriously), etc. And this after two fantastic dates where we never stopped talking, dragged them out for six hours because neither of us wanted to go home, kissed spontaneously without a word. I thought giving it more of a chance would be worthwhile - I suppose I'm lucky she decided to tell me early that she was looking for perfection.
LW, concentrate on finding the type of man who respects your choice to be vegetarian, and understands the limitations your dietary problems will put on your life - and respect his choices in turn. Right now you're not doing that.
Ltw at November 9, 2010 11:05 PM
One of the selling points of online dating, LW, is that you can list everything you want your potential partner to have (or desperately don't want them to have). If you leave out something that's important to you, you'll likely only end up being discouraged that your dates are great but for this one thing. I'd say it almost doesn't matter what the preference is, but if it's important, mention it. Increasing your man-pool by lowering your standards (whatever or however superficial they may be) will just lead to discouragement and/or resentment.
Think about it from the other perspective, LW. If you went on a date with a man and found out that you don't make the cut because of something he wants (or doesn't), and it's a dealbreaker but he didn't mention it in his profile, wouldn't you be a little upset? If you need your date to be something specific, you owe it to yourself and him to mention it up front.
And Amy's right about the gluten intolerance: unless the cult that put an exploding microchip in his brain will only let him live if his dates eat fettuccine alfredo, it's not going to matter to him.
NumberSix at November 9, 2010 11:31 PM
Hey, Ltw. Now, unlike your ex, you have a major reason for dumping someone: she's an advanced neurotic.
Compiling a list of petty annoyances as justification for dumping someone is...I don't really have the word for it. Petty? Yes. Adolescent? Yup. Controlling? Probably. Insecure? Oh, yes!
Good riddance to Her Royal Flakiness, Ltw. You can (and should, in fact, must) do better. The bright side? From that, there's nowhere to go but up. Unless there's a hatchet murderess you fancy.
Patrick at November 10, 2010 2:56 AM
Patrick, I had three people independently say to me, in the same phrasing, "you dodged a bullet there". I don't disagree, I was already having my own doubts about her controlling nature - but can't I meet some women who decide I'm wrong for them *after* they sleep with me?
I'm sure I've posted this here before, but in case you missed it - the email with this list was written as a formal rejection letter, i.e. "We are writing to you in regards to your application for the position of xxx's boyfriend. We regret to inform you that you have been unsuccessful in your application, and since there are no other applicants, the position remains unfilled"
Two pages more of analysis after that. When I said I thought that was incredibly cold, she replied that she thought humour would make it easier and that it was more proof we shouldn't be together. I can't work out who could possibly feel humour was the way to deal with that situation, as opposed to, say, a 5 minute phone call. So, no, Patrick - I don't miss her. Don't worry, I'm looking for better.
Ltw at November 10, 2010 4:45 AM
Yeah, NumberSix, I agree. LW should go ahead and mention mention vegetarianism on her profile, since it seems pretty important to her, keeping in mind that doing so will limit responses.
Boy am I glad I'm already married. I'd have no idea how to handle dating these days!
Old RPM Daddy at November 10, 2010 5:08 AM
Speaking as a vegetarian who cooks meat for my boyfriend nearly every night ... you should mention you're a vegetarian.
You don't sound comfortable with having meat around the house, let alone preparing it. There's nothing wrong with that - but your letter reads like you're trying to talk yourself into something. I strongly suspect it won't work.
Don't worry about mentioning the gluten intolerant, that's not really going to impact him - unless you won't let cake in the house ;-).
AntoniaB at November 10, 2010 6:33 AM
The best approach to online dating isn't to make the dating pool as large as possible but to narrow it down to what you really want. If you really don't think meat-eating is a big deal, treat it like it isn't a big deal. If it's important to you, mention it.
MonicaP at November 10, 2010 7:23 AM
In my experience, not being able to cook together and eat together merely because of significant differences in taste (I'm an adventurous, healthy, multi-cultural eater and cook; my ex thought anything other than tater tots and hamburger helper was wierd and icky) was a major drawback. Think how much time a couple normally spends together over meals. Making dinner together, weekend morning breakfasts together... it can be really fun, something you really enjoy doing together, or it can be an area of tension and stress that highlights your differences. And in your case, LW, being vegetarian vs. omnivorous is a deeper issue than my example of simply not being able to branch out from a comfort zone defined by frozen tv dinners and spaghettios.
Seems like you'd be much more comfortable with a fellow vegetarian. And I agree with Amy and others that the gluten intolerance doesn't need to be an issue upfront. It's not a deal breaker; it's something you can fairly easily manage on your own without impacting a partner.
trina at November 10, 2010 7:34 AM
I'm a vegetarian, and I believe that Amy, as usual, is completely right in her advice. If LW expects his or her dietary choices to be respected, then he or she has to respect others' dietary choices in return. That's different from holding your nose in disgust as your date eats a steak from the barbecue.
If you treat a person you're dating like that or try to control how he or she eats, that person probably won't be in your life for long. I'd be angry if someone tried to compel me to eat meat products, and I'm sure LW would too. So why does LW think it's okay to tell a non-vegetarian boyfriend that eating meat is okay only a certain number of times in a day or week?
I've dated non-vegetarians and married someone who isn't vegetarian. I'm all right with other people eating differently from how I do. When I went on dates, I would mention my vegetarianism in conversation or if my date was making a meal for me. I don't recall putting that I am vegetarian in any dating profiles, but if I had the feelings that LW does, I certainly would have.
LW sounds like he or she should be dating only vegetarians. It is a smaller dating pool, but isn't better to find someone who is compatible with you than go on a string of frustrating dates with men who aren't? There are dating websites out there that are just for vegetarians. Perhaps LW should check those out.
By the way, Amy, I love your tofurkey joke and would like to use it. A lot of people bring up tofurkey when they find out I'm vegetarian, and that food product is something I very much dislike.
kali at November 10, 2010 7:49 AM
@Ltw: wow, what a bummer of an experience! Pages of criticism? Yikes, you did dodge a bullet.
I myself kinda like people who have made life choices, like to go vegetarian or vegan or whatever. It shows a committment that's a bit stronger than "hey, I'm a buddhist." (No offense to the real ones out there.)
I find committmentd like that a bit sexy. Add it to your profile. There are men out there who will feel the same way, I'm sure of it.
ie at November 10, 2010 8:30 AM
She should definately mention it. Since I'd say 80% of first dates involve eating. He will find out pretty quickly and it gets rid of the awkwardness of, finding out shes vegan by taking her to your favorite steak place.
I also question her math 1-2 times a day is way more than 4 times a week.
Joe at November 10, 2010 8:44 AM
There's nothing better than making a delicious venison stew with my BF. We LOVE to cook together, so if we didn't like the same things, it would probably be a big deal.
LW, go ahead and put it in your profile. You'll avoid the idiots who will try to change your preferences once they think you're hooked. And believe me when I tell you, they're OUT there.
Flynne at November 10, 2010 8:55 AM
I'm an animal-loving vegetarian, but I don't mind watching you eat meat up to four times a week if you're a great guy. (Five times would, of course, be a deal-breaker.)
How old is this person? Does she sleep with a bunny, by any chance?
Pricklypear at November 10, 2010 9:24 AM
Another sniveling vegetarian. It is really annoying to be around the personality of a vegetarian, have you noticed?
The bother of airline meals, the inability to just hop in a roadside diner and hit the road again, the bla-bla about how if you mix rice with beans you get a complete amino acid etc. Anybody who talks about kale should be buttfacked hard until they cry, "I admit it, I want a cheeseburger."
BOTU at November 10, 2010 10:04 AM
Anybody who talks about kale should be buttfacked hard until they cry, "I admit it, I want a cheeseburger."
I almost lost a keyboard there.
JCD at November 10, 2010 11:04 AM
Vegetarians and non-vegetarians can certainly co-exist. My ex was a vegetarian, and I was not, but that particular difference was never an issue. I like vegetables, so cooking vegetarian meals for him wasn't a problem, and I often ate meat or fish whenever we went out to dinner, which wasn't a problem for him. He was never one of those evangelical vegetarians, wanting to convert everyone else.
But it gets sticky if you really are repulsed by what the other person eats. For her to want to request only a 4x a week meat eater indicates to me that she would have a problem watching him eat meat. She's better off simply stating that she's a vegetarian and would prefer a vegetarian partner. If she wants, she can add that she's open to dating meat eaters, but she's unsure about it. Sounds like that's the truth.
lovelysoul at November 10, 2010 11:15 AM
I'm a vegetarian also, and my boyfriend is not. I couldn't care less about his choices. I have never tried to change him. I do love to cook, which probably makes our situation easier because he loves everything I make. And I have an extremely varied repertoire of recipes. Indian, Thai, Italian, Mexican cuisine...I can always find a way to make good meals without meat. He never misses the meat. (I also think he's secretly happy he doesn't have to cook for himself.) On a side note, he signed me up for a chili cook-off on Halloween at a local bar and grill in our neighborhood. He never asked me if I wanted to do it, he just signed me up. I asked him why, because I wasn't going to win. I told him "nobody is going to vote for a vegetarian chili". He just said he thinks my chili is great, and besides, they needed to fill up a few last spots for the cook-off. So I cooked the best darn veggie chili I've made in a long time, brought it in, didn't tell anyone it was veggie, and I won! No joke. I asked the judges after if they knew there was no meat in it, and they told me they had no clue! I don't use any fake veggie/soy meat in there either. They just said mine had the best flavor. Too funny...
Jill at November 10, 2010 11:58 AM
Oh for God's sake—this cow (pardon the pun) deserves to be alone.
Razor at November 10, 2010 12:09 PM
Ltw, I agree you dodged a bullet with that one. Best of luck in the future. I haven't had much experience breaking up, but I kind of think "I just don't feel that way about you." is probably one of the better ways.
I'm mostly a vegetarian. For me, it's partly about the animals and partly that I dislike the texture of meat. If something has beef bullion in it or something like that, I don't care because it's not that noticable. I normally also don't care if people eat meat around me. Although once when I had dinner with someone who ate prawns (you could kind of tell what they used to be), I avoided looking at the person's plate. And I don't want to watch someone eat a lobster.
KrisL at November 10, 2010 3:49 PM
Like others have stated, if she feels strongly enough that she wants to dictate how much meat he can eat before they've even met, then it's probably better that she just go for other vegetarians.
I don't know about the gluten part though. There's the risk of coming off as high maintenance ;)
Steve at November 10, 2010 4:37 PM
I mentioned it on my profile when I was dating. As someone mentioned above, you wouldn't want him to take you to a place with no veg options. Also, mentioning it would attract vegetarian men. MonicaP's right, its about narrowing it down to find The One (or Two if you're poly...)
Also, if having a meat-free house is important to you in the long run, you really need to mention it in the beginning. I'd say what he eats elsewhere is his business, but maybe you feel more strongly about having a partner who doesn't eat meat. Then you may want to consider veg dating sites. Google "vegetarian dating site" and a whole bunch pop up. Or if your local town has a Vegetarian Society that does meet-ups, then go to one.
Jill has a good point, if you want to have a meat-free house and marry a meateater, you better be a DAMN good vegetarian cook. I recommend the Horizons cookbook as a place to start.
Gluten-free, though, that sucks. That must be very difficult, being veg and not being able to have seitan, bread or pasta. Sorry to hear that!
NicoleK at November 11, 2010 5:06 AM
Tofurkey's ok, if you make a good sauce for it. What was good was the Unturkey but they went out of business, sadly. They also made great bbq seitan and wine-marinated seitan.
NicoleK at November 11, 2010 5:07 AM
since we're veering off topic a bit, does anyone have a recommendation for a GOOD bacon substitute? after watching the movie Food, Inc., which i highly recommend by the way, we've quit buying factory farmed meat. i can buy free range, humanely treated, humanely killed beef, lamb pork, chicken and goat locally, but i haven't yet found a source for bacon made from non-CAFO pigs, so i'm wondering about turkey bacon or something...??? anyone?
trina at November 11, 2010 7:39 AM
I'm a meat lover, and, for sure, anyone who doesn't eat meat - a vegan, a vegetarian, whathaveyou - will gag at the constant smell of cooked meat whafting through the house when they live with an omnivore. This is not rocket science.
Also, i have a g/f whose husband has food issues, and practically never eats with her. She's a fantastic cook and baker, and it's criminal that he doesn't partake, though it's through no fault of his own. He has health issues. But the toll it has taken on their relationship is untold. (Cooking and) Eating together is a relationship bonding thing. It's not rocket science either.
Bluejean Baby at November 11, 2010 1:27 PM
Trina,
Turkey bacon is foul.
I think as bacon bits it wouldn't be bad, but in whole strips it seems like a weird cross between vaguely bacon flavored fruit roll ups and what I imagine Beggin' Strips might taste like.
afurrica at November 11, 2010 1:55 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1780646">comment from afurricaGreat description, afurrica!
Amy Alkon
at November 11, 2010 2:30 PM
That's good to know! Thank you, afurrica! Perhaps I'll have to learn how to cure and smoke my own.
trina at November 11, 2010 3:34 PM
I'm online dating again, but I'm now a vegetarian and gluten intolerant.
Does that statement strike anyone else as funny?
It implies that she's only recently become a vegetarian, and gluten intolerant.
I wonder whether the LW has had the opportunity to date many men who are vegetarians yet?
At the risk of offending the entire vegetarian community, I'd advise her to test the waters a bit before committing to vege-only dating. Almost all of the men I know who are vegetarians are of a certain type. There doesn't seem to be much diversity.
Rosa at November 12, 2010 6:44 AM
I know a lot of vegetarian guys, having been raised vegetarian and knowing a lot of 'em since my childhood. They run the gamut. Well, not quite the gamut... not a lot of, say, hunters among them. But I know metrosexual businessy vegs, science fiction geeky vegs, hippy crunchy vegs, soulful artsy vegs, goth vegs, jock vegs, preppy/yuppie vegs, poor vegs, rich vegs...
Though I'd say they attract a greater number of crunchies than the average population.
Where does LW live? What's she looking for?
NicoleK at November 12, 2010 11:40 AM
trina -
check out www.eatwild.com and you can check out who's in your state, and also find places that will ship.
tiggertlc at November 12, 2010 3:01 PM
I'm online dating again, but I'm now a vegetarian and gluten intolerant.
Does that statement strike anyone else as funny?
I didn't notice that Rosa but it's interesting. I think it's just awkward and she means "but I'm gluten intolerant and now also a vegetarian".
Bear in mind though people often don't realise they have allergies/intolerances until they change their diet and feel the improvement, so she might have been recently diagnosed. It's not all "kiss someone who just ate peanut butter and die". People get used to things, and if you've always had a churning stomach, flatulence, diarrhea, etc you *can* not know that it isn't normal.
Almost all of the men I know who are vegetarians are of a certain type.
This is tongue in cheek, but I agree. Vegetarian men are generally pale and thin (and left wing, appalling so). Vegan men are usually ill if not dead :P
As far as I know, and given that I eat a minimum of 400g of meat a day I haven't really looked into it, it's not possible to keep to a vegan diet and stay healthy without supplements. Calcium and iron especially. Vegetarian is hard enough.
Ltw at November 12, 2010 7:01 PM
Trina -
You can get some truly divine duck bacon at www.Dartagnan.com
They also carry Berkshire pork. It's spendy, but unbelievably tasty.
Elle at November 12, 2010 7:04 PM
Vegan men are usually ill if not dead :P
Hee hee. I'm reminded of this. I don't think that lion's going to make it. Although, if you've seen that episode, he does outlive Free Waterfall, Jr.
NumberSix at November 12, 2010 8:29 PM
I haven't seen that one NumberSix! Love it. I shouldn't be surprised you're a fan though...
Ltw at November 12, 2010 9:43 PM
I don't get the whole "tofurkey" thing. Why do some vegetarians spend so much time and effort trying to find a substitute for something they don't choose to eat?
As for --Animal Lover-- Perhaps she ought to give a little consideration to loving humans as well in their natural state... as meat eaters.
Sarah at November 12, 2010 11:07 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1781416">comment from SarahI'd rather eat a sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 typing paper than a strip of turkey bacon.
Amy Alkon
at November 12, 2010 11:24 PM
If eating meat really is a dealbreaker for you, then put it in your profile. But first you should ask yourself whether it REALLY is a dealbreaker, or just a preference that would be nice if someone shared. I think too many people treat online dating like a shopping catalogue where you can custom-design the perfect partner, but it doesn't work that way. If you get too hung up on the little things (like sharing a mutual distaste for gluten) then you may risk comprising more important things-like values, compatibility, desire to have kids, etc.
Also, I would probably never date a vegetarian even though I am one myself (I eat fish/seafood though). I think it's more difficult and less common for men to be vegetarian, so the ones that are tend to be either the crunchy/hippie/liberal type, or reallllyy into animal rights, neither of which are my type. I also like men who work out and have a bulked-up build, and I think it'd be hard to achieve that look without eating meat. That being said I eat very diversely and healthily and I prefer a guy who does the same. Not only does it make it easier to pick a restaurant or split an appetizer, but it says a lot about their general life outlook too.
Shannon at November 13, 2010 8:02 AM
"I don't get the whole "tofurkey" thing. Why do some vegetarians spend so much time and effort trying to find a substitute for something they don't choose to eat?"
Tofurkey is probably a bad example because I think it's absolutely disgusting, but in general I like meat substitutes because they allow me approximate what everyone around me is eating. If I'm at a barbecue for instance it's easier for me to throw a veggie burger on the grill than be the only one eating a salad. I actually don't like foods that taste too much like real meat-I prefer a veggie burger made out of vegetables over one made out of soy for instance-but some people who are vegetarian for animal rights or health reasons may still really enjoy the taste of meat and be interested in the closest subsitute.
I also know many meat-eaters who will eat vegetarian meat-substitutes in addition to meat simply because they like the taste. Most of the subsitutes are also high protein, low carb, and quick and easy to make-just throw in the microwave.
Shannon at November 13, 2010 8:11 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1781581">comment from ShannonMy favorite substitute for steak is steak.
Amy Alkon
at November 13, 2010 8:14 AM
thank you elle and tiggertic!
trina at November 13, 2010 4:34 PM
My favorite substitute for steak is steak.
Now *that* I like. I just had one, and I'm thinking seriously about a second. I've never seen a vegetarian recipe that couldn't be improved by adding bacon in some form.
Ltw at November 13, 2010 7:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1781819">comment from LtwI've never seen a vegetarian recipe that couldn't be improved by adding bacon in some form.
With you every step of the way on that.
Amy Alkon
at November 13, 2010 8:02 PM
Pale and thin? Where are you meeting your vegetarians? I know some thin ones, some muscly ones, some fat ones... can't say any vegs I know are particularly pale, no more so than your average caucasian... I dunno. Mosts vegs I know you wouldn't know by looking at them.
NicoleK at November 14, 2010 8:06 AM
I've been vegan for almost 3 years and my boyfriend has been vegan for 20. Everyone thinks my boyfriend is much younger than he is, everyone thinks I look thinner and healthier than before although neither one of us did it for any kind of health benefits.
Think about why you would put your trust or not put your trust in another person. One big clue that someone is trustworthy is that they put the interests of others over their own trivial interests. Vegans by definition are putting the interests of nonhuman animals over their own interest in the pleasure of partaking in their flesh or gametes or secretions regardless of whether or not animals are smart enough to use language or navigate the subway. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of nice omnivores but I wonder if someone oohing and ahhing over bacon or steak without thinking of or caring about the way it got there will similarly regard me outside their sphere of moral concern.
And before you tell me that human attitudes towards animals have nothing to do with their moral stance towards other humans consider that there is neuroscientific evidence that outgroup members activate the same brain regions as animals and that animal abuse is highly predictive of aggressive behavior towards other humans.
Diana at November 14, 2010 2:49 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1782200">comment from DianaOh, how silly. Like none of us have met nasty, passive-aggressive (or aggressive-aggressive vegans). I've read recently that a number of girls take up vegetarianism or veganism as a way to mask or continue along with eating disorders.
Veganism can also be a great way to tell other people you're superior to them. Lierre Keith did that -- until it nearly killed her. She wrote a book on it.
My boyfriend eats lots of bacon, and sits at his computer and wears my little dog clamped into his sweater marsupial style when I'm away, and is the best person I know. This past Tuesday, when I had a sore throat, he had a busy work day, but took time out to go to Cantor's deli, get me an $11 container of their amazing chicken broth, and drive it all the way across town to me...along with a nice, juicy In-N-Out burger he picked up along the way.
Furthermore, since I inspired my boyfriend to start low-carbing, his health stats (as measured in tests by his doctor) are greatly -- no, WILDLY -- improved. (Blood pressure from high to near-normal -- and not because he started exercising, just because he cut out bread, sugar, fruit, and starchy vegetables.) The same goes for my health stats. I have the blood pressure of an elite Olympic athlete -- ever since I cut the carbs and started eating a diet of mainly eggs, butter, bacon, buttered vegetables, hamburger, steak, chicken, and cheese.
For the science behind how Gregg and I eat, turn to http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
Amy Alkon
at November 14, 2010 3:08 PM
And before you tell me that human attitudes towards animals have nothing to do with their moral stance towards other humans consider that there is neuroscientific evidence that outgroup members activate the same brain regions as animals and that animal abuse is highly predictive of aggressive behavior towards other humans.
That's going to depend greatly on how you define "animal abuse." Liking meat and thinking there is nothing wrong with that is not animal abuse or tantamount to it. And that is exactly the kind of thinking (and talking) that gives vegetarians and vegans a bad name. And bear in mind that I am a vegetarian (though not for moral reasons) and I would risk bodily harm to keep an animal from being abused.
And I do know that there are animals that are treated quite badly before they are slaughtered for food, but what I'm saying is that liking to eat animals=/=animal abuse. So, by that logic, liking to eat animals=/=aggressive personality. Remember the old "Hitler was a vegetarian" chestnut?
Your use of a proven fact (that animal abuse is the number one indicator of a sociopath, which we all know) does not entitle you to extrapolate to any theory you choose.
NumberSix at November 14, 2010 6:08 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1782285">comment from NumberSixNeatly put, NumberSix!
Amy Alkon
at November 14, 2010 7:08 PM
Hitler was at most a flexitarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
and I never said that liking to eat animals made a person an animal abuser, what I did say was that in some circumstances animal abuse is predictive of human abuse so it's not crazy to hypothesize that someone who doesn't have any empathy towards the animals they eat would have reduced empathy towards other human beings.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201005/empathy-is-what-really-sets-vegetarians-apart-least-neurologically-speak
Also, one cannot deny that when the demand for meat increases so do the number of people who spend their days engaging in behavior that, if levied against dogs or cats would be considered animal abuse. I know that people who raise animals for food can also be good people, my grandfather owned a dairy farm for over a decade in the fifties before CAFOs
I almost never criticize meat eating on health grounds but that seems to be what always comes up when I talk about ethics.
Diana at November 14, 2010 7:53 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/legume-squad.html#comment-1782328">comment from DianaOne link per comment, please, or your comment will be eaten by my non-vegan spam blocker.
Amy Alkon
at November 14, 2010 9:14 PM
in some circumstances animal abuse is predictive of human abuse
Yes, animal abuse tends to be predictive of human abuse. Indisputable.
so it's not crazy to hypothesize that someone who doesn't have any empathy towards the animals they eat would have reduced empathy towards other human beings.
Quite disputable. I'll reiterate that liking to eat animals=/="reduced empathy towards other human beings." The flaw in the thinking here is that people who eat animals are do so because they don't feel for animals. Does not necessarily follow. My dad is one of the softest-hearted people toward animals you'll ever meet, and will suck the meat off a pig's rib with no small amount of relish. Separating yourself from the food you eat does not mean you have a personality disorder. Also, by your logic, there would be no human-human aggression amongst animal lovers (vegan or not). Not true.
NumberSix at November 14, 2010 9:48 PM
Also behavior people disply twords the animals they raise may seem abusive to people who have never raised livestock.
Anikals are animals, herd animails espically work in a hirearchy and if you dont make sure they know that you are the alpha they will try and take that 'position' from you.
I raise my own beef so I have two to three cows at a time. I have to occasionally get into their pento clean it as the corner I feed them gets fairly clutered. The last thing I need a couple tone of live cow trying to prove thier dominiance. Luckily when they first start trying to do thay they are only a couple of hundered pounds large and easy enough to manhandle - but from that point onwards ins a psychological game that you cant ack down from otherwise the bastards will slam you in the back.
lujlp at November 14, 2010 11:23 PM
You raise a good point luj. My dad and my grandmother (mom's mom) were both raised rural and had some form of livestock growing up. My grandmother can recount tales of when she was a child going out to get the chicken that was to be killed for Sunday dinner. This is a woman who absolutely hates to see animals mistreated (teary when the city seized some cows from someone who had been pretty much starving them), but she can separate that from the animals she eats. I'm from the 'burbs, but there are many people I know who at some point raised their own food and really do appreciate where it comes from.
NumberSix at November 15, 2010 12:18 AM
@NumberSix: And I do know that there are animals that are treated quite badly before they are slaughtered for food, but what I'm saying is that liking to eat animals=/=animal abuse.
This is precisely where I'm coming from. I love animals. I've tried being vegetarian; it doesn't work for me. My body type needs animal protein, but I personally want no part in animals, even herd animals, being treated cruelly while alive or prior to and during their slaughter -- as is the case in CAFOs/factory farms. They are unbelievably freaking HEINOUS. So I buy local, free range, "happy" animals that are treated kindly and slaughtered quickly, on location, not shipped in a semi truck to a huge slaughter-factory and terrified and abused right before getting killed.
And I'm not even getting into the environmental impacts of factory farms... that's another issue entirely, and a big one.
trina at November 15, 2010 6:49 AM
Oh mean, I would eat a big fat juicy steak every night for dinner if I could afford it. Just reading this letter makes me crave steak. If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them taste so good.
As for LW, I'm afraid the kindest words I can come up with is to suggest nicely that it's obviously very important to you, so definitely put it in your profile, so you can find one of the many veggie-men and not waste anyone else's time. Sounds like you're just 'looking for a fight' otherwise, I mean that's like almost passive-aggressive, it sounds almost like part of you wants to choose a man who eats mean just so that you can have something to complain and pick a fight about and try to control him over. That will not end well. Most men like meat, and I can think of little more insulting emasculating than trying to whip a guy into not eating meat if he's a meat-eater.
Lobster at November 15, 2010 2:28 PM
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