This American Strife
My boyfriend of 10 months asked me for my idea of a romantic evening, and I said I think it's really romantic to make dinner together. He asked for specifics, and I ended up pretty much describing what my last boyfriend and I used to do: have wine and cheese, burn this particular incense I love, listen to "This American Life," then make dinner together. This is now what my boyfriend does to "surprise" me. He has downloaded tons of "This American Life" episodes and even burns the same incense my ex and I used to! I'm certain I sound like a total creep, but it really isn't romantic to have your significant other surprise you by doing exactly what he was told.
--The Ingrate
With a guy who follows directions as closely as your boyfriend, you must be a little disappointed that, when he asked what you find romantic, you didn't toss off, "Oh, a man who builds a 500-foot obelisk to my beauty." ("Honey, your obelisk is ready!")
You're irritated that he didn't work harder; he just went, "Great, now I have my list." But, he wasn't the only uncreative one. You didn't bother unlocking the old imagination cabinet. You rattled off details, down to the brand of incense, as if they were random enjoyments that came to mind, not the foreplay report from your last relationship. And come on, what did you expect, the guy to ask, "Hey, baby, tell me what you find romantic," and then say, "Cool! I'll do something else!"?
Maybe he reconstituted what you told him because he isn't very creative or maybe because he's a guy. Men are often a little unsure of themselves in the romance-crafting department. It just isn't the lifelong pursuit for them that it is for so many women, like the woman on an author panel I moderated who opened her book with the line "I was born to be a bride." Books about men's lives tend to start more like "We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold" or "I am a sick man. ... I am a spiteful man. I am an unattractive man. I believe my liver is diseased."
Let's be honest: How many combos are there for romantic dinners? Should he have changed wine and cheese to wine and little canned wieners? Instead of incense, should he have seen if Raid had come out with a bug spray called "That Special Evening"? Be grateful for what you have -- a boyfriend who wants to please you. To help him succeed, tell him that what you really find romantic are surprises, and then suggest doing as my friend and her girlfriend do: Take turns planning and surprising each other on date night. The non-planning partner need only show up at the appointed time and follow any prearranged directions, like "wear a parachute" or "bring a sharpened machete."
Should you find yourself a little more surprised than you were hoping for ("Wow...a puppet theater to act out our relationship issues!"), see that you don't squelch his newfound romantic creativity. Heavily praise what you'd like more of, and be prepared to put on your game face for anything short of a picnic dinner of chocolate-covered crickets and toasts to your love with rainwater from the Japanese reactor.
When outlining the romantic dinner, did LW tell him that this was how she and her last boyfriend used to do it? If she did, the boyfriend probably should have introduced some kind of variation, but if not, he probably just wanted to get something more-or-less right. Hopefully, LW is fairly easy to please.
I don't see that big of a problem here. A little encouragement, a little positive feedback, and the boyfriend will get a feel for what LW likes.
And don't knock the little canned wieners.
Old RPM Daddy at May 3, 2011 5:21 PM
This whole thing confuses me--
He: What do you like?
She: A, B, and C.
He: I'll do A, B, and C.
She: Why are you doing things I said I liked for me?
He (and most guys): Whaaa?
Jay at May 3, 2011 5:44 PM
Groan. I say 'do him a favor and let him go'.
Lobster at May 3, 2011 6:15 PM
I'd take the fact that he's precisely replicating what she'd told him to indicate that the whole process is foreign to him.
two questions..
does he know that this is what she'd done with her ex?
why doesn't she come up with something?
You can't blame him if he'd taken her description to mean that she wants to do those things. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption on his part.
ooky at May 3, 2011 6:59 PM
Looks like the last boyfriend liked to make dinner, listen to TAL and burn incense. He included her. She considered it romantic.
This boyfriend does all the above, because he thinks she likes it. She is annoyed by his attempts to please her.
Her reaction is not suprising, actually. That is how women are. Second boyfriend hasn't a clue, does he?
Spartee at May 3, 2011 8:53 PM
Looks like the last boyfriend liked to make dinner, listen to TAL and burn incense. He included her. She considered it romantic.
Or Last Boyfriend saw it in a sappy movie and thought it sounded romantic. Seriously, that "romantic evening" sounds like the kind of thing you're supposed to like because it's romantic, when it should be the other way around. It's the evening-in version of red roses and diamond tennis bracelets. Fine gifts, all, but only if the recipient actually likes them. If not, the wine, cheese, incense and radio program just add up to canned date.
I agree with everyone above in that it's not surprising that New Boyfriend did exactly as he was told. She told him it's romantic to burn this particular kind of incense, and she's annoyed that he's burning this particular kind of incense. Since New Boyfriend asked for specifics, I'm putting money on the fact that LW (or maybe a previous girlfriend) was underwhelmed at his attempts at romance thus far, so he decided on an idiotproof plan.
I love the advice you gave to both of them, Amy. They both need to work on their dating life, and the suggestions are really practical, whereas I bet other advice columnists would have said to either suck it up or find someone who does what you want without having to ask. But that's not how things work in the real world.
NumberSix at May 3, 2011 9:25 PM
One of the things I've learned about women (well, not all of them of course, but many) is it's less about what you do and more about 'who you are while you're doing them' (i.e. if she likes your personality, if you're making it fun, if you're George Clooney or not etc.). I suspect she probably doesn't like his personality all that much. Which isn't entirely surprising given he does exactly what she says she likes to do, trying too hard to please, because point 2, women don't like that - they prefer you have a mind of your own and figure out something fun to do (and many women regard it automatically as the man's "job" to do that and absolve all responsibility). And he hasn't figured this out yet, probably young or hasn't dated much and in the 'isn't this how I'm supposed to please women' phase. And point 3, women have a tough time communicating these things in a way that actually gets across, firstly because half the time they don't understand themselves, and even if you do, if you have to explain it your boyfriend it's probably not going to work anyway. (I'm not saying there's anything overly wrong with either of them, just that I'm not sure their personalities match.) And a dude burning incense for a woman? Fawning and obsequious .. let's face it, guys don't give a crap about incense.
"Or Last Boyfriend saw it in a sappy movie and thought it sounded romantic"
Yeah, I can't see that a straight man would ever come up with that because it's what he actually felt like doing. That's right up there with bubble baths etc.
Lobster at May 3, 2011 10:24 PM
On second thought, maybe I'm being overly negative. Maybe there is still a great potential basis for the relationship here, and maybe with a bit of the right' coaching' and guidance he could be a great partner for her. It's worth a shot. LW, if he has potential, either it will be developed for you, or some other woman will get the eventual benefit thereof.
Lobster at May 3, 2011 10:36 PM
My husband asked me this morning what I wanted to do for Mother's Day. I told him we usually brought my mom breakfast in bed. He said he hates breakfast in bed because of the crumbs.
So I suggested a picnic. So I guess that's what we are doing! Luckily we live near some of the best picnic spots on the planet.
NicoleK at May 4, 2011 12:03 AM
Being grateful for the positive things in life, no matter how small, is such a big part of overall happiness. LW needs a big lesson in this. It's easy to pick someone apart, but what good is that? It's also easy to gently make other suggestions...like, "Hey, let's try this new incense" or "I love this album. Let's listen to it tonight while we cook".
Making dinner together is romantic, but it shouldn't follow a script. Yet, she's the one who gave him the script (in great detail), so she should take it upon herself to change it, not bitch about having a guy who is trying to do what she wants. That is NOT a problem worth writing to Advice Goddess about.
Honey, if you don't appreciate your boyfriend, there's a whole lot of other women who will. Maybe you're really the type of girl who is only happy chasing after some bad boy's attention...or you're just not old enough yet to appreciate what you have...but if you can't enjoy him, let the guy go. I have like a zillion girlfriends who would kill to have a boyfriend this responsive.
lovelysoul at May 4, 2011 5:17 AM
Well said, Lobster. You totally get it.
Spartee at May 4, 2011 6:00 AM
My husband and I actually do the wine and cheese thing every anniversary. We get a really good bottle of our favorite vintage, and make a picnic in our living room with different cheeses and meats with the wine and a movie. It's our yearly tradition. It sorta morphed out of the fact that for our first anniversary we were saving up to buy a house and didn't think it was smart to blow a lot of money on an expensive meal out so we just did a wine and cheese dinner that year and we loved it so much that it stuck. It's quite simple but it's still the most romantic thing we do together every year.
Sabrina at May 4, 2011 6:26 AM
LW's boyfriend has probably gotten the "you don't listen to what I say" speech once or twice and has taken it to heart.
Neil G. at May 4, 2011 6:29 AM
Aaaw. I'm picturing him downloading all those TAL episodes. I think this is truly a situation where the cliche "it's the thought that counts" applies.
sofar at May 4, 2011 6:51 AM
I am woman so I can say this... This is typical woman b.s., wherein she rates the quality of the relationship based on how well he can read her mind. She wants him to prove that he knows her so well that she doesn't even have to tell him what she likes; he should just KNOW. This is a typical female fantasy usually reserved for younger overly romantic women. These are the women who are impossible to please bc there is no way to know what's on their minds. Especially in this case, where she didn't have any new ideas to share with the current bf and then is pissed bc he didn't upgrade her fantasy.
Sheepmommy at May 4, 2011 7:11 AM
And this "problem" has bothered this individual so much she had to write to the goddess about it. Not to actually ask for advice, apparently, but just to gripe about it.
Poor baby needs more trouble in her life so she can put this in perspective.(And be more entertaining for me, of course. I wanna hear about how the new boyfriend is stalking the old one so he can learn how to dress and style his hair, etc.)
Pricklypear at May 4, 2011 7:38 AM
It looks like "Beth" from the other column done found her a man after all.
Razor at May 4, 2011 7:41 AM
Heheheheee! She sounds like such a whiner!! Romantic, to me, is BF coming up behind me when I'm at the stove and kissing my neck, or bringing the basket of laundry upstairs for me without me having to ask, or bringing home a bottle of wine for me, or taking me for a long ride in the car, not telling me where we're going, and then surprising me with a nice lunch at some out-of-the-way restaurant. It's the little things that he does for me without telling me what he's doing that I find romantic. But we've been at this for several years now, so maybe all this couple needs is a little more time for the relationship (and thus, the romantic ideas) to evolve.
Flynne at May 4, 2011 7:49 AM
This girl needs serious reality check. Your complaining he did what you told him you wanted????!!!!!! No wonder men say women are complicated. And Flynne I'm with you, there's is nothing more sweet or romantic than something little your s/o knows you would appreciate.
hisprincess at May 4, 2011 9:23 AM
I get the wine and cheese part, but listening to TAL? I do listen to NPR but nothing I have ever heard there has put me in the mood for nookie.
Wouldn't the burning incense tend to overpower the dinner they are making together?
Oh and ignore the canned little weiners. Get the shrink-wrapped kind in the grocery store are where they keep the regular-sized hot dogs. The canned weiners look just like...nahh, I won't go there.
alittlesense at May 4, 2011 9:47 AM
I remember back when I was young I read a few books on romantic gestures because I didn't have a clue.
That hasn't changed but the missus seems to prefer home repair to flowers any time. Too bad I really hate home repair...
Reading things like this really makes me dislike a certain strain of women.
flydye at May 4, 2011 9:56 AM
Well, if you are boring, then you get to have a boring mate. That's your lot in life.
BOTU at May 4, 2011 10:43 AM
Every anniversary Sabrina? My hubby and I do the wine and cheese picnic on the living room floor every Friday. I think I must have it pretty good. I knew that, but it's nice to have it confirmed.
I hope you do this little ritual more than just on your anniversary (especially since you say how much you love it) and I just read it wrong.
We also cook together and listen to whatever music strikes our fancy every night. I suppose it's romantic, and he's a helluva good cook, but after 23 years it feels more utilitarian than anything. Although his support in the kitchen is definitely one of the things that makes him HOT to me.
I guess that's my confusion here. What is romantic, anyway? Isn't it just doing the stuff that you know the other person will enjoy - BECAUSE you know they'll enjoy it? That's what the guy is doing. He's just a bit clumsy at it. She's being critial, when she could be enjoying his offerings and helping him to learn more about her (and figuring out what HE thinks is romantic, too). They both need to learn a few things about what makes a good relationship hum.
Laurie at May 4, 2011 11:40 AM
Flydye, amen to the home repair thing.
For years, I've been telling my 27 yr old daughter that handy beats the hell out of handsome in the long run. There's nothing sexier than my husband with a pipe wrench in his hand, fixing the leak on the hot water heater. The way his biceps curl when he pulls on the wrench? Oh, yeah.
Laurie at May 4, 2011 11:46 AM
Geez, while Amy doesn't post the whole email exchange in her columns, it doesn't seem like there was any indication that LW suggested to her boyfriend that a change of pace might be a good thing, before writing and telling Amy that getting what she told him was romantic wasn't really romantic.
Sheepmommy is probably completely correct. She's probably one of those women who expect a man to read her mind, and get pissed when they find out he can't.
WayneB at May 4, 2011 11:58 AM
Perhaps what the LW is really disappointed about is the fact that Current Boyfriend is not Ex Boyfriend.
ahw at May 4, 2011 2:01 PM
That's right up there with bubble baths etc.
Posted by: Lobster
The only reason guys do bubble bath is they are hoping for sex
lujlp at May 4, 2011 3:14 PM
ahw: "Perhaps what the LW is really disappointed about is the fact that Current Boyfriend is not Ex Boyfriend."
This is exactly what I was thinking. And to take it a step further (into my unfortunate speculation, of course), poor schlub has probably been sensing her dissatisfaction with him for awhile now, which is why he asked her opinion on romance in the first place. He's trying to make her love him.
I kinda feel bad for this guy. He's not going to be able to win one in her eyes, because he's not the ex.
10 bucks says the ex could be a real douche sometimes, just not when he was making dinner while burning incense and listening to TAL.
lori m. at May 4, 2011 4:38 PM
There's another possibility here, though only the LW can say.
Half of the people who say 'Surprise Me' mean 'I'm Easy to Please. I Enjoy Everything. Give It a Shot; You Can't Lose.'
The other half are picky people. For them,
'Surprise Me' means 'Go Ahead, Try and Discover the Four Things I Like. Good Luck.'
The LW must ask: do I tend to stick to a routine? Do I frequently return gifts? Have I objected to new experiences that my boyfriend has suggested in the past? If so, she's a picky person. She wants what she wants. That's fine, but it means she forfeits surprises.
On the other hand, if she's an easy-going person, then we know that it's her boyfriend who is the step-by-step kind of guy. He doesn't deal well with ambiguity. He preferred Math class because there was only 1 right answer. He will always require a list, but it need not come from the LW. Teach him to Google 'Perfect Date Night' and he'll find scores of posts by guys like himself. He'll probably print them out and do them in the order that they're listed. But no matter which one he picks he can't lose because the LW is easy-going.
TL at May 4, 2011 5:32 PM
What is romantic, anyway? Isn't it just doing the stuff that you know the other person will enjoy - BECAUSE you know they'll enjoy it?
Exactly. And I think that's what Boyfriend was trying for. He didn't want to do something supposedly romantic that she wouldn't like, so he went for the direct route. Would it get boring doing the same "romantic" thing every time? Possibly, but there are people like the above posters who love the wine-and-cheese thing and consider it a tradition. Boyfriend now probably thinks of the borrowed date night as Their Thing. I think it's up to the LW to gently let him know that while she really enjoys Their Thing, she'd really appreciate it if they could surprise each other once in a while. I think that's the best part of Amy's advice here: she doesn't need to tell him to do better next time, she needs to come up with romantic things for him, too. Do something that you know he'll like, LW, and it'll make it easier for him to reciprocate without worrying about going off-script.
NumberSix at May 4, 2011 8:46 PM
Incense? Didn't that go out back around 1973? And even then, it was mainly used to cover up the smell of funny cigarettes. Let's all go down to Spencer Gifts and get some day-glo Mott the Hoople posters!
Cousin Dave at May 4, 2011 9:42 PM
"I'm certain I sound like a total creep" - you sure do....an entitled princess creep. Why don't you do something to make it romantic for him? Why is it his job to do anything to please you anyway. You ought to be happy that he is actually trying to please you though he probably has better things to do in life(like please himself or find someone who pleases him)
Redrajesh at May 5, 2011 3:40 AM
@ TL The LW must ask: do I tend to stick to a routine? Do I frequently return gifts? Have I objected to new experiences that my boyfriend has suggested in the past? If so, she's a picky person. She wants what she wants. That's fine, but it means she forfeits surprises.
AMEN!
My S.O. has shown great dissatisfaction with any number of things I've tried to make a gesture (Girls, do that enough and the guy stops making the damned gestures...then he doesn't care, right?)
We aren't talking 'All you can eat Taco's, or Monster Trucks, but spas, dinners etc.
This last Christmas, she wanted an iPhone. I got her an iPhone. No mind reading. No accepting a faux thanks. Some women are like that: picky. I can deal if they actually communicate their desires. Unfortunately, LW reads as picky and living in the the telepathy la la land, where BF is supposed to know exactly what to do and when to do it. (Hint: It isn't that the guy knows exactly what to do. If she's into him, he can do anything and it's great. And if she isn't, well, read her letter...)
Hope he leaves her and she can heat up her own incense.
flydye at May 5, 2011 5:22 AM
Let's all go down to Spencer Gifts and get some day-glo Mott the Hoople posters!
Hey!! I resemble that remark!!
(Actually, I'm going to see Ian Hunter and his Rant Band in New York in September. I'm psyched!)
o.O
Flynne at May 5, 2011 5:25 AM
Girls, do that enough and the guy stops making the damned gestures
That's true. Some women need to remind themselves that men have lives, and identities, of their own and are not put on this earth simply to perform for their amusement.
I wonder what's going to happen if the LW's BF realizes that he's performing the exact same ritual that her ex did? That when he asked her what she considers romantic, she basically told him to behave like her ex.
peta at May 5, 2011 8:56 AM
Yeah, I find that part creepy. Just imagine how upset LW (or any woman) would feel if she asked her boyfriend what he liked in bed and he gave her a play-by-play of what his old girlfriend did. Finding that out would be a dealbreaker for a lot of women. Yet, LW didn't think it was inappropriate to basically do that to this guy. Either she's still hung up on the ex, or she's totally clueless or insensitive.
lovelysoul at May 5, 2011 10:36 AM
I agree. If he finds out and has any awareness or self esteem, he's history.
flydye at May 5, 2011 11:48 AM
I bet that they're both pretty young. What's funny, as Amy pointed out, is that she's upset at her BF but even she doesn't know what she likes. And the poor guy is so lost that he's taking directions like she'd handed him a grocery list! But she's really not in a position to complain when she's got no idea either.
Peta at May 5, 2011 12:33 PM
You appropriately named her "The Ingrate." He didn't ask her what her last boyfriend did for her. He asked what she found romantic. And the only thing she could think of was what her last boyfriend did for her? And she has the nerve to criticize his lack of originality?
Patrick at May 5, 2011 5:56 PM
I wish I could reach through the Internet and slap the LW. I'd give my left eye and my right arm to have such a thoughtful boyfriend.
Rozita at May 5, 2011 6:51 PM
Flynne, thanks for the laugh! Actually, I saw Ian Hunter on a TV show a few years ago, and he was in pretty good form.
Cousin Dave at May 5, 2011 8:52 PM
"she rates the quality of the relationship based on how well he can read her mind. She wants him to prove that he knows her so well that she doesn't even have to tell him what she likes; he should just KNOW"
Hey, you must know my ex-gf. She used to sometimes tell me that almost in those exact words - I 'should just KNOW'. And apparently my 'I can't read minds' response must have been quite consistent, because eventually she started telling people about my "can't-read-minds speech". In hindsight it seems kind kind of funny now, but didn't then.
Lobster at May 6, 2011 7:42 PM
Did anyone else put themselves in the boyfriend's shoes and wonder what he would feel like if he found out that she has recreated the exact scenario with him as she had with her ex? I mean, right down to the nitty gritty of burning "this particular incense i love"... [insert Twilight Zone music here]. It's kind of creepy of her.
If i was the b/f, i'd seriously worry about her capacity to live in the present.
Or maybe she is just so young and naive that she is incapable of creating her own new CURRENT reality. Geesh.
Bluejean Baby at May 6, 2011 8:18 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/05/this-american-s.html#comment-2110849">comment from Bluejean BabyDid anyone else put themselves in the boyfriend's shoes and wonder what he would feel like if he found out that she has recreated the exact scenario with him as she had with her ex?
I did, the moment I first read it, but it wasn't his question; it was hers.
Amy Alkon at May 6, 2011 8:44 PM
"Let's be honest: How many combos are there for romantic dinners?"
The best 'romantic' date I've had, was my first real-life date with a girl I'd met and gotten quite close with already online - it was the first time I met her in real life, and was her idea, and a total surprise - a hike up a mountain (an hour or two's walk), then a surprise sushi and champagne dinner, sitting on top of the mountain while the sun set over the town below. It worked, I was immediately head over heels (though it didn't work out in the end). But I'm afraid I'm not very creative in that department, and I think I'd find any pressure to be continually creative (e.g. 'taking turns surprising one another') a bit tiresome. But, each to their own.
Lobster at May 7, 2011 7:53 PM
"'Surprise Me' means 'Go Ahead, Try and Discover the Four Things I Like. Good Luck.'"
My mother, to a tee....ugh. The snub fests when she doesn't get the 'right' Christmas presents etc, just....ugh....
crella at May 8, 2011 5:56 PM
@ Lobster: I'm wondering how many first dates will now entail trekking up a mountainside and noshing on sushi at sunset *nudge nudge wink wink*
Bluejean Baby at May 8, 2011 7:42 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/05/this-american-s.html#comment-2116110">comment from Bluejean BabyI found it romantic when Gregg and I got hotdogs from 7-Eleven and ate them in the car.
Amy Alkon at May 8, 2011 8:17 PM
It took me awhile to figure out that romance is a connective experience that occurs between two people, and it's usually best when experienced spontaneously. My fondest memories of romance don't have a single instance of candles, background music, or flowers, although those have been very nice.
Meloni at May 9, 2011 12:57 PM
All these posters who are saying that she told him what she wanted, he did it and now she's complaining.. Am I the only one who really took this in? She didn't ASK for him to replicate her evenings with her ex. He dragged it out of her.
My boyfriend (...) asked me for my idea of a romantic evening. I said I think it's really romantic to make dinner together.
"Well, cooking together is fun, making a really nice dinner together and then sitting down to eat it, I think that's romantic. Maybe have the radio on, the house smells all nice, some good wine.."
Then the guy, maybe wanting to get it exactly right, starts asking for specifics. Which wine? What's on the radio? What do they cook? What does the house smell like?
And suddenly she finds herself forced to describe details to what she hoped would be a new and unique evening with him, and probably had no image of at all because those details would be spontaneous and unique to this relationship, but he's pressing her for details and so she falls back on describing what she used to do with her ex.
And by the time she realises that he actually intends to completely replicate that, she feels bad about knocking him back, because he's being sweet and trying to make her happy and giving her what he thinks she wants.
Not her fault. She didn't go 'this is what I want'. If anything I think it's slightly more his fault for dragging out details instead of taking the general idea and make it theirs. Maybe he was feeling insecure and didn't think he had anything to contribute to such an evening?
In any case, Amy's advice is sound and they might be able to work it out yet. I just object to the whole line of 'women, give them what they want and they'll complain' responses.
Anne de Vries at May 15, 2011 3:05 AM
"A fanatic is a man who does what he thinks the Lord would do if only He knew the facts of the case."
jean paul sarte at July 4, 2011 2:37 AM
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