If this is a justification for a woman making the first move, it's a lame one. What should have tipped her off was months of non-aggression on his part. While it's great that she can finally put him behind her and move on, she shouldn't have had to cook him a meal for her to finally realize this. The message was made plain by the moves he didn't make.

At best, this letter is a justification for making the first move if the woman is unbelievably dense.

What should have tipped her off was months of non-aggression on his part.

My thoughts exactly, Patrick. The woman's problem was not that she believed women shouldn't ask men out, but that she needs to act like she has some of that whadayacallit...self-respect. Ten bucks says the guy knew she was flirting with him but was too nice to tell her he wasn't interested.

I'll add to your last statement...if the woman is unbelievably dense, or if the only two outcomes are not asking/not getting a date and asking/getting a date. There's a third possibility there, and she should have reached that as the conclusion long before she spent months(!) on a guy that made no overtures.

Also, am I the only one who thinks the home-cooked meal thing is a little over-the-top for a first date? Come into my kitchen, said the increasingly desperate spider to the totally uninterested fly.

The fellow was under no obligation to ask out the woman. Maybe he was not only not interested, but additionally put off by her tactics, technique or apparent desperation.

A man should not have to make excuses for not asking out someone. Anyone. It is his business.

It should not be expected that if the woman employs method A, she is entitled to a certain response in a certain time frame.

Number Six, regarding the home-cooked meal being over the top, if viewed as a first date, yeah, it is. On the other hand, if it were viewed as a platonic friendship between two people who have known each other for months, nope.

I just poked my guy when he passed me by. He was on a bad first date with a girl and was very respectful towards her. I didn't think he was interested in me but then he went out of his way to ask me out. And I had just poked him.

No seriously don't ask men out, remember as a woman you've got the goods no need to put them out on clearance.

in general, a guy who could be really into a woman will be less into her if all he has to do to get her is sit there and look pretty.

Yes--in general. But there are always exceptions, and she'll never know if he's one of them unless she tries. If one of her requirements in a guy is "enough assertiveness to ask me out", then obviously she shouldn't ask, because even if he says yes he doesn't qualify. But if she's OK with a guy who needs to be asked, why not give it a shot? One of three things will happen:

1. He says no;
2. He says yes, they go out a couple of times, realize the chemistry isn't there and move on (this is what happened last time a woman asked me out);
3. The cosmic roulette wheel stops on double-zero and everything works out. Somebody has to be the fourth cousin's second-best girlfriend.

Seriously, girls, if we wanna do you, we'll do something about it.

And yes, sometimes we don't have the balls for it and maybe we'll grow a pair. I did. It took years. Quite a few. Amy's totally right on this one. Show you're available and you'd appreciate it if he were to be a little inappropiate. If he isn't you're not tickling his fancy. Or he's a wimp and probably won't tickle yours.

Or maybe the co-worker simply isn't that attractive. I know that sounds rude but it's true. A woman gets older, she becomes a seller in a buyer's market.

Of course, the dude may be unbelievably dense, too, and unable to recognize flirtation for what it is (not everybody gets it right away). Of course, that might indicate a whole different set of problems as a potential boyfriend.

As for asking him to her house -- I'm with NumberSix and Patrick. I'm not so sure she's wise to ask someone she doesn't know well into her home on a first date, regardless of how attracted she is to him. That's what cafés are for.

I would NEVER ask a guy to my house for a first date - how on earth would you be able to stop him if he turns out to be a bad dude?? What Old RPM Daddy said, that's what cafes are for.

It's hard to know, though, when you're just flirting with someone, if they're taken or not if they don't tell you. Sometimes being aggressive gets you the answer, even if it's not the answer you want. I'd rather know up front though, so I'm not wasting my time or his.

I second what RPM said, because I was that incredibly obtuse guy.

I found through high school that any of a half dozen girls found me very interesting...after the fact.

Now, some of them I recognized as flirting and wasn't attracted so I blatantly ignored it. Others I would have made a move on...but didn't recognize the signs.

Now a wink is a wink and even the clueless can get that. If she ran that one, he's not that into you.

"No seriously don't ask men out, remember as a woman you've got the goods no need to put them out on clearance."

Just be aware of that there is an expiration date on those goods, and that it may be sooner than initially thought.

If coworker lady was doing all of this flirting, couldn't she at some point slipped in a, "So, are you single?" I've been off the market for quite a while now, but I do recall that discovering a person's relationship status was always a big priority.

I've always thought that if a man's interested, he'll ask.

And, like everyone else mentioned- I wouldn't have a guy to my house on the first date. Let's say he's not dangerous (and he's probably not)- it's still REALLY forward.

If you want to show off your cooking skills, have a dinner party and invite the guy. As a first date, though? A bit much.

I've met some shy geeky types with no social skills who couldn't get up the nerve to ask girls out. Part of it was not being able to figure out the rules of the game and being confused and not know how to proceed. I've seen them end up in happy relationships with women who were a bit more aggressive.

HOWEVER

There's got to be major sexual tension going on. Usually one knows if a guy has a too-shy crush on you. Usually he does the ol' stereotypical nice guy stuff. If you like him you can go for it. If you don't, odds are you find it creepy.

. . . she did all the flirty things you advise, but he never made a move. This went on for months since she, like you, thought women should never, ever ask a man on a date.

TRANSLATION: What an idiotic notion

I finally persuaded her

TRANSLATION: Nagged her until she agreed just to shut me up

He thanked her but said he had a girlfriend. So, now she can put this behind her. She's actually relieved she finally made a move.

TRANSLATION: Even though it didn't work out, like you said it wouldnt, that doesnt mean I was wrong

--Wise Friend
TRANSLATION: I'm never wrong

On a more serious note the guy may very well be single and find her attrctive and know better then to enter the legal & career destroying minefield of getting involved with a coworker.

After all assuming meek and potatoes work out one day Wise friend's other fatter & uglier co worker could accuse the guy of sexual harrasment for kissing someone other then her, and just imagine the crap he'd have to deal with if the relationship didnt work out

After the third date with my now-husband, he stopped calling and emailing. I was upset, because we had been talking a few times a week. I figured there were a few possibilities.

1) He wasn't that into me.
2) He met someone else.
3) He was busy.

Turns out it was No. 3, and he called about a week later. Had it been No. 1 or 2, I would likely have never known what happened to him, and that would have been irritating but ultimately fine. Sometimes you never find out where that guy went off to.

"A little water and sunlight will grow carrot greens out of carrot tops in a jar lid, but there's yet to be a relationship that's produced spontaneous growth of testicles."

I have to say Amy, that may be one of the best lines you have ever printed!!

"but there's yet to be a relationship that's produced spontaneous growth of testicles."

Couldn't disagree more, have seen it happen plenty of times. Her asking him out or just dating him is an incredible boost in confidence to many shy guys. Have seen this lead to amazing transformations in the guy.

Remember women find confidence sexy, and women have it within their power to build a guy up or tear him down.

"Remember women find confidence sexy, and women have it within their power to build a guy up or tear him down."

Is that really confidence, if it depends on some woman's alleged power to grant or take away?

Her dating him might build him up enough for the next girl at the very least.

"Seriously, girls, if we wanna do you, we'll do something about it."

That's about as clear as it gets! Are we paying attention yet?

TRANSLATION: Even though it didn't work out, like you said it wouldnt, that doesnt mean I was wrong

Exactly my thoughts.

On the other hand, if it were viewed as a platonic friendship between two people who have known each other for months, nope.

That's the point, though. I can't think he'd be comfortable designating her a friend since she doesn't know him well enough to know he has a girlfriend. And he doesn't know her well enough (or like her enough to want to keep her around if they're not romantic) to gently bring it up in conversation so she'll stop flirting with him. Of course, this is all predicated on the fact that LW's line about the coworker being convinced he liked her really means, as we assume, that he showed no interest and she kept batting her eyes at him. Different kettle of fish if they had been actual work friends as opposed to two people who pass each other's desks and say hi occasionally.

I think Kevin is on the right track here. I recall a study even that showed men can be incredibly dense when it comes to noticing that a woman is flirting with them. Interestingly, it also seems that men often mistakenly believe women are flirting when they are not. Anything short of whipping off your top and asking if we like them can be too subtle for men.
I have been asked out, and I appreciated it. As a nerd, it was nice to have a truly clear signal of interest. One woman even cleverly "reminded" me that we still had not gotten to that movie...

My co-worker was really hung up on a guy. She was convinced he liked her, and she did all the flirty things you advise, but he never made a move.

If a woman makes it clear to a guy she's interested in him by doing all these flirty things, and he doesn't respond, then he's definitely not interested. However, if the flirtation is very subtle, where the guy could construe it as the woman just being friendly, he might not make a move because he doesn't grasp the signals she's trying to send.

I remember having a discussion about this with a group of women and men on a message board a few years ago. One guy was strongly urging women to ask men out, saying that he met his wife that way. While I don't think that's a horrible idea -- if a guy is interested in and attracted to a woman, he's not going to reject her simply because she took the initiative (unless he's a very traditional-macho guy who can't deal with women doing this) -- I said that women don't actually have to ask men out, that all they need to do is make their interest clear by, for example, flirting. What I found interesting, though, was the reaction of many of the women to that suggestion. They said they didn't want to make their interest clear because if they did that and the guy didn't respond, that meant they were being rejected (which is true.) What they seemed to be saying was that they wanted a way to save face. If their flirting was subtle, and the guy didn't respond, they could tell themselves he wasn't rejecting their interest but, instead, was just not savvy enough to pick up on their signals.

Anyone who dates a coworker is nuts.

@Jim,

That's one of the most insightful comments I've seen. It's helpful to see how the fear of rejection plays itself out across both genders. I guess the male equivalent of half-hearted flirting would be something along the lines of "do you want to 'hang out' sometime.." with no real attempt to communicate romantic intent.

As the person who submitted the post I'd like to add a bit of context. My co-worker is fairly recently divorced after a 10 year marriage ended by her husband's infidelity. She is a bit nervous about the whole dating scene and out of practice. The man in question is a member of her church's post-divorce support group and, she thought, might be equally out of practice as well as nervous about starting a new relationship, which to her explained his inaction.

That said, as a man I think the whole "woman should never ask a man out" rule makes no sense. I dated women who asked me out. It was flattering. A while back I dated a woman for a month and then broke it off for stupid reasons. A few days later she contacted me to restart the relationship and I agreed. Pride prevented me from making the move here. We've been married 28 years. Not the same thing, I suppose, but I'm reminded of this every time the idea of a woman never making the first move comes up.

Great article, as always, and I agree with it as a whole but have a nit to pick about one part.

The mugging analogy isn't apt, in that weak date-asking skills have nothing to do with how someone handles an emergency, or how strong their protective instincts are. Completely different animals.

"U-rape-istan" is hilarious, however!

"But, if you really wanted a woman, wouldn't you have asked her out? (As opposed to just wanting her from a distance and resigning yourself to spending the rest of your life jerking off.)"

Well, as a former President once said "When I was young and stupid, I was young and stupid". I didn't always recognize someone was interested in me until it was too late. There weren't too many guides to dating for geeky, 20-something introverts in the '70's.

And speaking of flattering, I'm flattered you used my note to head up this column. I really enjoy your site and often learn something, even when I disagree with you!

Monks could be tempting.
Especially Buddhist ones.

Well, DrMaturin, you've proven Amy's point: If the guy had been interested in your friend, he'd have asked her out. He wasn't interested, so he didn't ask her.

I had a crush on my now-hubby. I saw him at work. I asked him out, and told him I wanted to be his love slave, and got down on my knees and blew him good and hard.
That worked!

BOTU may be broad-minded, and he sure taught me a lot about what can happen in bed between the cheeks, but he is not gay.

I dont think its gay when your obsessed with your own ass

Anyone who dates a coworker is nuts.

Based on my own experience and observation, I can't agree with that at all. At one company I used to work for, there were as many as seven couples at one time (in a workforce of 500 at the best of times and usually fewer) who met and married at work. I met my wife there, and before her, a woman I lived with for two years. One of my supervisors was married twice to women he met there.

Obviously, not all of these relationships lasted forever, but not a single one broke up while both parties were still working there.

It's certainly a bad idea to date someone above or below you in the chain of command, but aside from that, I say go for it.

I would, however, draw the line at what one guy at my company did: date other women employees even though his wife and his mother-in-law worked there.

I was very attracted to a woman at the office, but she was 10 years older than me, and so I didn't ask her out. She eventually asked me out and I agreed, although out of politeness because I was still hung up on the age difference. I confessed my concern at the end of the date and told her that I didn't want to go out again.

Over the next several months as I spent more time with her at the office, I realized what a wonderful woman she really was. I decided to screw the age difference and asked her out. I was surprised when she agreed to go out with me.

Now, I suppose most of the folks here will think that we both did everything wrong and are pathetic losers. But we've been happily married for 25 years, so I don't really care.

I don't agree with the premise that men should only do the asking. That seems to be a really weak position to put women in. Women and men don't speak the same language, and many men don't get the "signals". You literally have to beat some of us over the head.

I also don't buy the notion that a relationship can only grow from a man's initial strong interest. I shudder to think over being stuck with some of the women I asked out, or of missing out on good relationships with a couple of women who I initially disliked.

The point is not that it never works, but that it rarely works, and even if a guy might have been interested in a woman, if she asks him out, most of the time, for most men, that immediately makes her seem a bit desperate and less desireable. Occasionally, it can work out, but most of the time it won't, and it's best to live your life and make decisions based on the most probable outcome, not on the miniscule chance you'll be the exception.

My husband's cousin is a lottery millionaire. That doesn't mean that we spend all our paychecks on lottery tickets.

And women just need to get better at flirting because that has a statistically higher rate of success with more men.

"No seriously don't ask men out, remember as a woman you've got the goods." I love it when women think they hold all the cards when the truth is they don't hold any.

My husband's cousin is a lottery millionaire. That doesn't mean that we spend all our paychecks on lottery tickets.

False analogy. A woman who asks a man out is buying one lottery ticket. If it doesn't work out, she can go back to flirting or whatever when the next prospect comes along.

I'm with you. Women (myself included) too easily project upon men a scenario that is not based in reality. As in "He really likes me but is unable to express it." A great relationship can only be had with a man who is able to do the bare minimum to pursue a woman at the level she is pursuing him. Thanks for this!

Thanks Jdbar. And what you mentioned is a good example of the male equivalent.

*

Amy: He has a gorgeous and very sweet and loving wife (by my observation). She's the woman nobody asked out. He's with her because he had the balls to ask.

If she's gorgeous, then she is definitely not "the woman nobody asked out." Attractive women always get asked out by men. Always. Not by men who are shy, of course, but there are plenty of aggressive men who will ask out any woman. I'm always observing people when I'm out in public and women who are attractive always have guys approaching them. He's with her not because he was the only guy who ever asked her out. He's with her because there was something she liked about him compared to all the other men who asked her out.

*

Debbie: The point is not that it never works, but that it rarely works, and even if a guy might have been interested in a woman, if she asks him out, most of the time, for most men, that immediately makes her seem a bit desperate and less desireable. Occasionally, it can work out, but most of the time it won't,...

With some exceptions, such as very traditional men, if it doesn't work out, it's because the guy isn't into the woman, not because the woman asked him out. If a guy finds a woman attractive, interesting, smart, fun to be with and great in bed, he's not going to reject her simply because she asked him out. That's absurd. This is just another face-saving device for women.

I wouldn't doubt that when a woman asks a man out it rarely works. But, again, that's not because the woman is asking the man out. I'm sure that most of the time when a man asks a woman out, it also rarely works.

This guy couldn't have dropped some casual hints to put the poor woman out of her misery? She had to ask him out to find out he had a girlfriend. Either a) he was completely clueless - possible - or far more likely b) he liked the attention and was stringing her along as a future option. Most guys won't shut up about their partners except when they're specifically hiding them.

How hard is it to drop into the conversation "my girlfriend and I went to x movie on the weekend or similar"?

Having learned from parents, culture, and (after getting saved) church, that "The Man is supposed to make the first move", I always boldly, bravely, albeit clumsily, did so -- from my teens through til my mid 30's. Cuz Dad and Mom and Pastor and Elizbeth Elliot and all the girls said to. (The Bible, however, does NOT say this, and in fact, the biblical herione Ruth did make the first move with her husband-to-be... a fact often glossed over at Bible study....but I digress.)

Anyway, making the first move didn't work. I had wanted to marry by my early 20s (finding celibacy all but unbearable), but, I spent most of my young adulthoold unwillingly single, unwillingly alone. I did much less dating than most guys and had very few relationships. Also I learned the hard way that plenty of "good Christian" women can be exceptionally cruel to decent men who politely make an unwanted approach. (No, not 4 am coffee, either!)

Somewhere around age 35 or so, I finally noticed that all but one of my relationships was started by the woman making the first move: either brazenly flirting or outright asking me out. All of my attempted initiation had got me, was rejection, verbal abuse, and one relationship which was the worst I ever had. All the relationships that even halfway-worked, were started by the girl, not me!

From that moment, I formulated a new rule, or more accurately, a new operational assumption, for myself:

If she's not interested enough to make the first move, she's not interested at all.

This saved me an enormous amount of grief and enabled me to focus my efforts. It didn't take me long to get married after that. We met on a religious dating site, and YES, she sent the first email.

So... while I have no respect for a man who lacks courage to make the approach, I have great respect for the man who has figured out that it's futile to do so.

> plenty of "good Christian" women can be
> exceptionally cruel to decent men who politely
> make an unwanted approach.

I've found this to be true, whether the woman is "good Christian" or not.

Not only should women ask men out, they should pay for it too. And bring a gift. And do the driving, picking up.

Either a) he was completely clueless - possible - or far more likely b) he liked the attention and was stringing her along as a future option.

Or c)he didn't want to look like an idiot if she turned around and said she didn't "like" him like him. My money's on too nice/"nice"/timid/afraid of getting slapped with a sexual harassment suit for even daring to think a female coworker was interested in him until she made it painfully clear, only because we're presented with no evidence the guy was actually into her other than that she was convinced he was.

On women being cruel to men who approach: ditto. I don't understand this at all. A good bit of the time I doubt she's even really offended, she's just told herself she should be offended. Or she likes the power of being ungracious. Ladies: if you're anywhere north of "not hideous if you squint, tilt your head to the left and down a vodka tonic," then you're going to get hit on at some point. If you're not interested, and he's not approaching with a hatchet, be polite and shrug it off. Personally, I choose to be flattered when a guy approaches me, no matter if there's no way in hell I'd be interested. Good to know I ring someone's bell.

Or c)he didn't want to look like an idiot if she turned around and said she didn't "like" him like him.

I don't mean sitting her down and asking her to stop, just casually dropping it into the conversation. You know, "my girlfriend and I were talking about that the other day" or in answer to how are you, "tired, my girlfriend dragged me to the in-laws last night". If that can be turned into harassment I'm giving up right now.

Seriously, they must have talked at some stage for her to be this hung up. How does she know him for months and never find out?

Also, it does say the LW was her co-worker - but not necessarily the guy.

On women being cruel to men who approach: ditto. I don't understand this at all.

I like that attitude. It's hard enough to ask someone out without having them use it as an opportunity to grind the stiletto heel of humiliation into you into the bargain. Then again, the types I'm attracted to generally wouldn't do that anyway. Ugly personalities are usually pretty obvious.

Sorry I am late to this. Probably a dollar short too.

The reason I believe most approaches by women fail is because they shoot way out of their league. Based on the women I know, the almost never ask a guy out and if they do it is the hottest guy around with all the other women parading for him because they want him.

The less direct approach (flirting with a guy) doesn't work so well because so many women are so bad at having any idea how much they a flirting. I have observed that how much a woman flirts with many is pretty much dependon on how flirty her personality is. So unless I know a woman really well, I cannot tell if that is her normal flirtyness or if she is trying to signal interest.

I suspect this is also why so many women think that men devalue women who approach them...it is really just a small percentage of men...but almost all the men they ask are in that percentage.

Given how few women approach man, that any relationships emerge from them would seem like they have a much higher success rate. Looking around at the couples I know of the younger generations (say45, maybe 50 and below) a (slim) majority of the good ones were initiated by the women.

I think the women being cruel to men when they ask them and they are not interested is a real problem.

I believe the real problem is that relationships for people are generally better for them if they are the somewhat less interested person. Too much disparaty causes a problem.

"This guy couldn't have dropped some casual hints to put the poor woman out of her misery? She had to ask him out to find out he had a girlfriend. Either a) he was completely clueless - possible - or far more likely b) he liked the attention and was stringing her along as a future option. Most guys won't shut up about their partners except when they're specifically hiding them. How hard is it to drop into the conversation "my girlfriend and I went to x movie on the weekend or similar"?"

This was my first thought too. Although, it's always possible that there is no girlfriend and he just said that to let her down easy because he didn't want to hurt her feelings. That could also explain why she thought he was interested in the first place, if he was friendly, tolerated her advances etc just to be nice.

"Just be aware of that there is an expiration date on those goods, and that it may be sooner than initially thought."

I realize I don't have a "right" not to be offended, but this is ONE offensive statement!

I suppose if all you want is a piece of ass, then what you say may be true. However, if you want a personality and a brain attached to a human being, then there is MUCH more to be looked at than "the goods."

I have never, ever fit the standard of what people think of as physically attractive, but I have never been without a date (if I wanted one), and I have no trouble attracting interesting people to talk to. And other than the one time my now-husband said that he would have appreciated a woman asking him out (so I asked him out that ONE time after we had dated for a while), I have NEVER asked a man out. Nor will I ever.

You forgot the 4th option, when it comes to women, some guy's are really, really dense.

I've had (an embarassing number of) women I knew when I was younger ask me why I never asked them out with them constantly dropping hints.

I never had any idea.

I like to think I'm more aware now, but who am I to say?

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