Not Into Thankings
Something a guy said the first time we had sex isn't sitting well with me. He said "Thank you." Those aren't the worst two words in the English language, but hearing them after sex made me feel bad. Sort of used. We made tentative plans for another date, but I'm wondering if I'll even hear from him again. What does it mean when a guy uses this sort of courteous closure after sex?
--Disturbed
After he thanked you, did he ask very politely how much a second hour would be? A lot of women get ticked at hearing "thank you" after sex, feeling they're being seen as service providers. That's because you thank somebody who does something FOR you, not when you've done something mutual together. The thing is, getting naked with somebody for the first time doesn't enhance anybody's ability to articulate thoughts. Maybe this guy was at a loss for words, and suddenly, it came back to him, his mother saying, "What do you say when the nice lady gives you a cookie?" Instead of sitting around dissecting the possibilities, do what you always should when you're hoping to see some date again: Forget about him until the phone rings and he's on the other end asking if you give discounts for repeat customers.
LW, you shall be very lucky in your future relationships. Since you don't speak 'cat', the very occasional 'thank you' from them won't accidently ruin that long term relationship.
You are feeling cheap after he thanks you for doinng something nice to him (with him, whatever)? Because you feel it MIGHT be a suggestion of...something nebulous? It is fully as inappropriate as him thanking you for going on a date with him that you both enjoyed. It's called ettiquete.
I think the correct answer on your part should have been 'no thanks were necessary, stud' but your way of passively aggressively deciding to maybe screen his calls is MUCH better.
You know, because he didn't say EXACTLY the right thing as EXACTLY the right time. Sounds like he wasn't going to go very far in your book no matter what he said if you're peeved at this little thing.
Don't worry. I don't forsee you running into the problem of a lot of second dates if you're this finicky with all your guys.
flydye at July 26, 2011 4:23 PM
Eh. It doesn't mean anything, necessarily, except he felt like he had to say something and the L word didn't work.
I think you're spending too much time analyzing this. Relax.
Tasha at July 26, 2011 4:32 PM
And I disagree with Amy on this. It's common to thank a person for stuff that both of them enjoy. Movies. Trips to an amusement park. Nice dates together. It's called gratitude and acknowledging that however much the other party enjoyed it, YOU personally appreciate the fact that they made an effort for YOU.
Or to put it another way. My wife cooks a nice dinner. She also gets to eat the food. Should she feel like a waitress because I thank her?
flydye at July 26, 2011 4:55 PM
I wouldn't like the "thank you" either. I don't know that I'd obsess on it like she is, but I am many years removed from the "is he going to call?" drama. Back then, I might have.
momof4 at July 26, 2011 5:13 PM
I'm of (kind of) mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand, I remember, after a looooooonnnnnnnng drought of sexless interaction, one exceptionally well-endowed young man ravishing me beyond compare. When we were done, I wiped the sweat off his brow (and mine), kissed him and said "thanks! I needed that!" and he laughed and said, "backatcha! I was in need too!" And every time we saw each other after that, whether we ended up being intimate or not, we both said "thanks! I needed that!", hugged and left each other (and those within earshot, I guess) laughing. Seems kind of alright to me! However, others' mileage may vary.
o.O
Flynne at July 26, 2011 5:24 PM
I don't see what the big deal is. My other half and I thank each other. I see it as acknowledgment that we each did something to pleasure each other and our efforts were appreciated.
Patrick at July 26, 2011 5:37 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2383170">comment from flydyeAnd I disagree with Amy on this. It's common to thank a person for stuff that both of them enjoy.
Whether it's common or not, it offends women if you thank them for sex. This is the point of the question, not the common use of the word thank you.
Also, as I pointed out, you thank someone when they do something FOR you, not with you. Someone cooks dinner FOR you. They are providing a service. Somebody has sex with you, and you treat them like they are providing a service, in terms of the way you respond, and they will likely be offended.
Amy Alkon at July 26, 2011 6:09 PM
@Disturbed ... as they say, men have two heads but only enough blood to operate one of the two at a time ... must first guess would be that it's possible he just felt the need to say 'something' and accidentally blurted out something nonsensical in his not-entirely-all-there state (in which case it's a compliment that he enjoyed it). And it's possible he thought to himself afterwards 'that was a stupid thing to say' and felt silly (who hasn't said stupid things and then felt silly?). It's difficult to say without the context/tone. I agree with Tasha you're over-analyzing, but just keep an eye on it, if he displays other signs that he views the sex in a way that he perceives deems gratitude rather than mutual enjoyment then perhaps something is off. If not,
Lobster at July 26, 2011 8:34 PM
I would likely experience a brief flash of annoyance if a guy thanked me, but depending on how it was said and if he didn't make a regular thing of it, I'd write it off as Post-Coital Brain Cloud. I agree with Lobster: he probably felt he had to say something so as not to offend and just botched it. And Amy's right about not obsessing over this guy so early (because it does sound as if they've only had a few dates and aren't in a full-blown relationship). You're overanalyzing answers he hasn't given you yet, which will affect how you act when you next see him. I'm definitely in the "wait and see" camp with Lobster. I'll bring the marshmallows.
NumberSix at July 26, 2011 8:44 PM
Funny, I've said thank you after sex to many women, and had many women say it to me, and it has never been a problem.
Snoopy at July 26, 2011 8:57 PM
Snoopy, exactly, I think it's nice, myself.
Question to those who object to this whole thanking business. Without going into details, do you do any particular thing that your partner likes, even if it's something you personally couldn't care less about? Do you ever do anything for your partner that you'd just as soon not do for the sole purpose of giving them pleasure?
And I assume most of us do.
So, what's wrong with being thanked for your consideration?
Patrick at July 26, 2011 11:43 PM
Patrick and Snoopy, I think the key thing here is attitude. "Thank you" in the sense that you describe is not intended in the way LW took it. However, a curt or perfunctory "thank you" right after sex, especially the first time, comes off much differently. But I still think it's far more likely that the guy meant "Wow, that was great and I need to tell you so" rather than "Thanks, I got what I wanted and I'll be on my way." Relax, LW.
NumberSix at July 26, 2011 11:52 PM
Rereading the letter and seeing that what she is actually asking (i.e. what does a guy mean when he is saying 'thank you' after sex), I find myself qualified to answer, because I have a penis. Amy's answer is great if you want a female way of dealing with such a horrible breach of ettiquete, but that doesn't answer the real question.
Unless it is accompanied by a patter of loose change on the pillow beside you, all he means is 'thank you.'
Because, as the keeper of the vagina keys, you are taking a chance on him and he appreciates the trust you are showing by sleeping with him. Or he is thanking you for the relief of his blue balls. Or he really liked that extra special thing you did with your tongue. Or he couldn't stand such a grand and special thing happening without acknowledging how grand and special it was. Or, 'hey, I really enjoyed that and I'd really like to do it again and so let me say I'm grateful and happy to butter her up for a repeat performance'.
(God knows enough women act as if they are doing an incredible favor by allowing themselves to be had. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with any male reaction...)
Of course, this is way too easy for women. It has to be about madonna/whore/sex worker dynamics.
All of the guys here so far are blinking in astonishment at the reaction of the women, who go from 'carefully watchful' to 'annoyed flashes' to 'well if you're going to be THAT way, let me write you out a receipt, you bastard!'
Now, this is going with the facts at hand. If there were certain tones, yes, I can see some issues. It sounds like she thinks she was a notch on his belt and that has nothing to do with the 'thank you' and everything to do with the guy himself.
flydye at July 27, 2011 2:40 AM
lol, flydye. Nice summary.
I guess I'm one of the few women who didn't know a "thank you" after sex was supposed to be offensive.
However, it's usually better if it's for something specific. My husband thanks me for blowing him some mornings. I mean, I don't HAVE to wake up that early and do it.
Or sometimes, he'll say, "thanks for last night", which covers whatever we did.
Yet, I can imagine that if the delivery was more dismissive, it might seem offensive, so this is truly a case of how it was said, and since LW's gut instinct is that she may never see him again, my guess is that it wasn't spoken in a "that was so wonderful I need to blurt out a thank you!" kind of way. It was more of a "I don't plan on ever seeing you again, so let me be polite and thank you for letting me bed you" way.
So, what's really offending her is not the "thank you" but the rejection.
lovelysoul at July 27, 2011 5:19 AM
Uhhh...I'm trying to imagine hearing that in the same scenario, and unless it was accompanied by throwing cab fare at me, I don't think I'd be offended...I used to get annoyed when Dearly Beloved would say something like I needed that! afterwards, but now I just ignore it. The last thing I want to do is make him feel like he has to walk on eggshells in the bedroom because I may randomly get annoyed about something he meant in a sweet and loving way.
Choika at July 27, 2011 5:39 AM
Whether it's common or not, it offends women if you thank them for sex.
This is a HUGE generalization.
I am having trouble understanding how anyone, male or female, can be offended at a 'thank you' for sex. I can only assume those people hadn't ever been married or had a long-term relationship with someone who expected, demanded, and felt absolutely entitled to the sexual favors of his wife or SO with absolutely no acknowledgement at all (before you ask: long-term due to children involved is why I stuck around, and besides, I didn't know men could actually be appreciative).
I'll admit the first time my (now) husband thanked me for sex, I was a bit taken aback, but not enough so as to show it, or (horrors) be offended by it. I liked it! Now, almost 20 years later, I totally LOVE it, and all the little reminder remarks later in the day, and even into the next day ("sure enjoyed having sex with you, dear").
Holy cow, I am supposed to be offended about THIS kind of treatment? Yeah, throw me in THAT briar patch!
gharkness at July 27, 2011 6:03 AM
Maybe if he handed her a rose when he said 'thank you' it wouldn't be as offensive...LOL. The crap people get hung up on is amazing. If the guy is lucky he will loose her number.
nuzltr2 at July 27, 2011 7:56 AM
How about when the guy is lying there dazed and panting and gasps out "THANK you!"
Cuz I got no problem with that one. But maybe that's just me.
The only thing better is when I'm the one saying thank you.
Pricklypear at July 27, 2011 8:19 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2383874">comment from gharknessWhether it's common or not, it offends women if you thank them for sex. This is a HUGE generalization.
It's true. Maybe some woman will not be offended, but many women would. momof4 is no fragile emotional flower of a woman. Read what she said.
It's weird to be thanked for a mutual activity. It implies that the guy was too big a loser to get sex and the woman got fooled into being with a loser or that he thinks she just provided him with a service, like a prostitute.
Whether or not you think this is how women "should" think, this is how many do. I'm all about how life works in reality, and laying that out there so people can be better equipped to deal with it. I don't advise for the world of perfect people who don't actually exist.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 8:55 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2383875">comment from Amy AlkonPS I'm personally very hard to offend, but I don't use myself as a standard for giving advice, because then my column really wouldn't apply to many people.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 8:56 AM
Maybe some woman will not be offended, but many women would.
I dunno. I counted the above comments from people I know are women. Unless I counted wrong, seven said they wouldn't be offended, while only two said they would be.
I've thanked women for sex, blowjobs, etc. It's never been a problem, and I invariably got Round Two if I wanted it. I don't know that "many" women are offended by gratitude for a job well done.
MikeInRealLife at July 27, 2011 9:27 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2383890">comment from MikeInRealLife*I* wouldn't be offended, MikeInRealLife, but many women are. Because most women posting here at this moment say they aren't doesn't mean many women aren't.
Again, I give life for reality, not reality as you'd like it to be.
Feel free to act as life "should" be and see how far that gets you.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 9:28 AM
I occasionally thank my wife if the sex is particularly good; I'm pretty sure she doesn't think I'm a too big a loser to get sex and that she got fooled into being with a loser
Whether or not you think this is how women "should" think, this is how many do. I'm all about how life works in reality, and laying that out there so people can be better equipped to deal with it. I don't advise for the world of perfect people who don't actually exist.
Unless the perfect people involve a next door neighbor who doesn't smoke, and a condo board that acts swiftly to ban smoking.
kf at July 27, 2011 10:37 AM
You know what really, really bothers American women?
Everything.
BOTU at July 27, 2011 10:40 AM
Yeah, BOTU. Everything about you.
Flynne at July 27, 2011 11:07 AM
IMHO, the one thing men should say - even if only half-true - is "That was wonderful". And if a man wants to see the woman again, the next thing to say is "You're pretty wonderful." All of this is long-hand for "I like you. You're cute and I want to have sex with you again."
Andre Friedmann at July 27, 2011 11:33 AM
Maybe he was just being awkward, and he wanted to kick himself for it immediately afterward. LW, wouldn't you want a guy to give you a pass for saying something awkward early on in the relationship?
As an awkward person myself, I would want a guy to give me a pass if I blurted out something stupid -- not obsess over its meaning.
Then again, "I carried the watermelon??!!" is pretty much my life story.
sofar at July 27, 2011 11:36 AM
I just say your welcome.
G at July 27, 2011 11:45 AM
Sorry your is you're. Thank you.
G at July 27, 2011 11:48 AM
Female here. I wouldn't be offended. I've said myself to past lovers. Mostly I was thanking them for the orgasm, not just the sex alone. No orgasm means no thank you.
I agree with others; she's overanalyzing.
LL at July 27, 2011 11:56 AM
In fairness, she was there and we weren't. I can see a cheeky "thank you being delivered and taken well, and a skeezy, overly sincere, desperate "thank you" squicking someone out. If LW is squicked out, she would be wise to heed it, and keep her eyes open about the guy.
kf at July 27, 2011 2:31 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2384143">comment from kfAgain, guys that have charisma and can do stuff with humor can get away with a great deal. Gregg is very funny. We were in a parking garage and he stopped stock-still when we were passing a stop sign. He always makes me laugh. For another woman, this stuff wouldn't fly. Also, I'm okay with -- and even love -- being teased. To me, it's a sign of affection. To some women, it's a sign of bullying.
You can always decide to break the rules -- as long as you accept the risks. An informed risk-taker is a risk-taker who'll probably have better outcomes.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 2:46 PM
I occasionally thank my wife if the sex is particularly good; I'm pretty sure she doesn't think I'm a too big a loser to get sex and that she got fooled into being with a loser
It's worth repeating here that this was the first time they'd had sex. And they're not in a full-blown relationship, either, from the sound of it. They don't know each other's quirks and habits yet, and it sounds like she was on hyper-alert because of that. People worry about stuff the first time they have sex. People get nervous about the other person thinking it was good. People worry about what to do next so it isn't awkward. I'll say it again, LW, it's really, really likely he was trying to assure you a good time was had by all and it just came out oddly. Don't obsess, because you'll just make it awkward on your next date.
NumberSix at July 27, 2011 3:04 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2384157">comment from NumberSixNumberSix is correct, yet again!
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 3:08 PM
Hmmm...I actually like being thanked after sex. It rings "OMG, you totally rocked my world. Thank you so much for that."
But I can see where it might be better to just say, "You were amazing".
Then again, I'm only really coherent after bad sex, so I can forgive someone for uttering a less than choice phrase. ;)
Mahkara at July 27, 2011 6:02 PM
Oops. I did that last week. And we have tentative plans for a followup date. And she's a bit unsure about where it's going.
I hope you got that letter before last Friday Amy!
Ltw at July 27, 2011 6:18 PM
It's amazing to me that supposedly a majority of women are going to go ballistic over such an unemotionally freighted phrase without a lot tone or attitude added by the guy.
This is an education. No roses. No books. No saying thank you if there is any way it can be taken incorrectly...by a woman. Unless you are an uber-guy like Greg who can get away with anything. Right.
Does this mean if a woman thanks me for sex, I should treat it as the offensive statement it truly is, or should I just get over my hypersensitive self?
Amy, it's a frigging THANK YOU, not a symbol of female oppression. I think you are wrong on this and just polling the women here, you're wrong. Are they tougher then 'real women'? Or is just a pet peeve that you and Six happen to share?
I can see SOME women getting bent out of shape about it. But most? That's a bit harder to swallow.
flydye at July 27, 2011 8:19 PM
Lovelysoul,
I don't think you are one of the few who aren't offended.
In the awful things to say after sex, 'thank you' comes somewhere between 'that was amazing' and 'are you finished?'
flydye at July 27, 2011 8:25 PM
How about, "For a fat girl, you can really suck cock."
"For an older woman, you still have some spunk."
"Who taught you to suck cock? I got cock-burn from your teeth."
"Next time, are you open to doing all three holes?"
"On a one to 10 scale, you get a nine, and I have had very few tens. Congratulations, you are way up there.'
"Great tits lady--who says boob jobs are passe?"
"Are you into three-way sandwich jobs? I have a cut bi-girlfriend."
"I'll call you when I get horny again. Promise."
"Your name is definitely going into my little black book--and in red letters. Thanks again."
"You know, if you lost some weight, you could be really hot, or at least better-looking."
BOTU at July 27, 2011 9:31 PM
Or is just a pet peeve that you and Six happen to share?
If you'll actually read my posts, you'll see that I advise the LW to lighten the hell up. And that I said that tone and attitude matter greatly in the thank you. And that the guy most likely was trying to be sweet at a time when his brain wasn't exactly firing on all cylinders. And that imbuing such meaning into something that happened after first-time sex will only make the subsequent dates awkward and that's going to be on her. And that it's not a pet peeve of mine as I haven't been thanked for sex. And that had I been thanked, my brief annoyance at an awkward statement would give way to rational thinking and giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.
But that's only going to get in the way of your insistence on turning some of our posts in these last few columns into screeds against men.
NumberSix at July 27, 2011 10:04 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2384685">comment from flydyeThis is an education. No roses. No books.
You don't give gifts to strangers.
A friend had an accident and seriously hurt her shoulder and couldn't go to a conference that meant a lot to her to attend. She just built a new pool. I don't have a lot of spare funds now, but it meant a lot to me to buy her a pool float, and spend time finding it in her favorite colors. Gifts are things you give to people you care about as a reflection of that care. A gift to a stranger...what's that about?
It's not about "female oppression." How ridiculous. It's about guys who bring flowers for the wrong reason for a total stranger -- either they're on romantic autopilot or they're needy. Don't assume all women like roses. I don't particularly like them. Only a man who knows me knows that. Gregg, last time he brought me flowers, brought me two bunches of sunflowers. I also like Gerber daisies, and regular daisies. And in terms of roses, I like the weird colors. Not red. Bringing me a rose is like bringing me the auto-gift. If you're not enough, sans flowers or a goat presented to the woman's father or something, you should stay home instead of dating.
Gregg is tons of fun in a fine restaurant -- or on a park bench. That's why we're together -- eight years in.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2011 11:36 PM
Maybe she is just the athletic type and would have preferred a pat on the behind followed by an enthusiastic "good game".
Reality at July 28, 2011 12:12 AM
An old girlfriend once thanked me after the first time we made love. I think it had been rather a long time for her with no sex. I thought it was very nice of her to say that. I have also said it on occasion and never been slapped for it.
Really, if that's the worst thing about this guy than LW is a lucky woman.
DrMaturin at July 28, 2011 5:39 AM
Yeah. Guys sometimes blurt out strange things they don't really mean during sex. I once yelled out "oh God yes, let's go shopping today!" It's no big deal.
kevin_m at July 28, 2011 6:30 AM
*I* wouldn't be offended, MikeInRealLife, but many women are. Because most women posting here at this moment say they aren't doesn't mean many women aren't.
Well, since you're a big fan of objective evidence, where's yours? Is there some peer-reviewed university study somewhere about thanking women after sex?
The only evidence I see is the women posting here, the large majority of whom are apparently not offended by gratitude. And again, my own personal experience (which is actually not inconsiderable) has been the exact opposite of your claim that "many" women would be offended or have a "flash of annoyance" at a simple expression of thanks. Are we supposed to just take your word for it, despite the evidence presented here and actual first-hand experience?
MikeInRealLife at July 28, 2011 8:49 AM
LW: Oaky, if the guy says "thank you," and slips $200 onto the bureau on his way out, maybe you have a good thing going. Keep quiet and see if it happens again. Man, screw his brains out for as long as it lasts.
BOTU at July 28, 2011 9:39 AM
NumberSix,
I originally thought I made a mistake, since you accused me of one, but since you were 'Annoyed at an Undeserved Thanking', I withdraw the apology I was going to offer. The Peeve is shared. The fact that you seem less incensed then Amy is a matter of degree, not of kind. And momof4 happens to agree. The rest of the woman on the board? They range from Meh to 'I do it all the time!'
But you also said other stuff. And I note that whatever 'screeds' I write (which generally are in explanation of a male POV, or to exclaim at the worst excesses of chick mindgames), about half the time you agree and half you don't. Such is life. I happen to agree that she is making WAY too big a deal of it, just as I've agreed with you on many other issues. But if you prefer to focus on the negative, that's fine too.
My biggest problem isn't that she feels this way. I've heard of much crazier, hypersensitive crap. It is the idea that most women feel this way. But I have this Pollyannaish idea that generally women are reasonably tolerant.
I'd rather not squabble. I'm not Jacob.
flydye at July 28, 2011 9:48 AM
Leaving the gift issue aside, the reference to female oppression is an exaggeration of how you seem to take a simple 'thank you'. I've thanked people for many things we've enjoyed together but that doesn't mean I think they are offering me a service or I am treating them like an inferior or that I lack self confidence. I understand since the 60-70's that sex is fraught with power dynamics, but isn't taking a 'thank you' as an example of this a bit extreme?
This seems to be a personal thing with you and a few other people if the board is any reflection of the broader audience.
But at this point I'm curious. Can the women on the board poll their friends about this? So far most have said they don't care or they like it. The men have said they've done it with their SO's and GF's and not gotten bad reactions (though how they know what is 'flashing' through their minds, I don't know)
flydye at July 28, 2011 9:56 AM
flydye,
If I may I believe I understand where a large portion of the varied interpretations come from.
You see, it isn't the "thank you" that is the problem. It is the vision that a particular person gets in their head of what the specific scenario is like.
When one imagines it in a non-insulting way, it comes off as not a big deal. When one imagines it in an insulting way, it comes across as ranging from merely annoying to outright unacceptable.
What seems to be happening here is people are running the objective facts through a subjective filter and filling in details that aren’t present to determine if it was creepy, acceptable, annoying, or just nothing at all to even think about.
I guess my perspective on the whole thing is that if someone is going to overanalyze every little thing about someone in order to find possible flaws, they probably don’t like them very much to begin with.
The process of building a good relationship usually involves little imperfections being practically invisible or perceived as being cute. If a woman thinks saying “thank you” after sex is a huge deal, then my guess is that she’s not very interested in the guy anyway.
Reality at July 28, 2011 10:27 AM
I pretty much agree with you Reality, regarding this woman and this relationship. Maybe she ISN'T a hypersensitive twit...but it's pretty much even money.
Regarding the lenses? Eh. People are different. I just doubt that 'most women' is accurate. How do I prove it one way or another? I can't.
flydye at July 28, 2011 11:27 AM
Again, guys that have charisma and can do stuff with humor can get away with a great deal. Gregg is very funny. We were in a parking garage and he stopped stock-still when we were passing a stop sign. He always makes me laugh. For another woman, this stuff wouldn't fly. Also, I'm okay with -- and even love -- being teased. To me, it's a sign of affection. To some women, it's a sign of bullying.
Which doesn't really square with your "women like this/women don't like that" schtick.
You can always decide to break the rules -- as long as you accept the risks. An informed risk-taker is a risk-taker who'll probably have better outcomes.
Sure if you define "better outcomes" as latching onto a woman, any generic woman will do. A guy who brings a rose to a first date would have a poor chance with you, but a guy like that is a poor fit with you to begin with. I think that guy might be better served bringing the rose, some woman somewhere will appreciate it and if he doesn't suppress his natural instincts he has a better chance of finding a good match.
kf at July 28, 2011 11:49 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2385225">comment from kfAgain, you don't give gifts to strangers. They are likely come off as bribes and to suggest that you feel a need to sell yourself instead of seeking to see whether you and a woman have a good time together. Once you have feeling for somebody and they have feeling for you, the landscape changes.
We aren't talking about "latching onto a woman." If you go on a first date, presumably, you'd like to have the best shot at making a good impression (in case you like the woman). This is advice in service of that.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2011 11:53 AM
But if you prefer to focus on the negative, that's fine too.
I wasn't focusing on the negatives, I was focusing on the part you specified when you used my name. And I didn't mean you were writing screeds, I meant that you've taken posts by others on this column and the gifts-on-dates column and concluded that we're laying out rules for men. Not true. I talked about that in my last post on that other column, if you want to read it.
The Peeve is shared.
No, it isn't. I have no peeve. I have never been thanked for sex. I have no past experience to go on and any other thanks I've ever gotten has been quickly responded to with a "You're welcome." Because I'm a nice, polite person who tries very hard not to read bad intentions into fairly innocuous statements. Why is it so bad that I engaged in a thinking exercise, concluded what my knee-jerk reaction would probably be in that situation, and then concluded that I'd tell myself to shut up? My point was that I would pretty immediately recognize the guy didn't mean anything bad by it. So, even though I probably wouldn't have the "right" reaction initially, I'd get there in about a second. Thinking like that helps me in life.
As far as polling friends, the people I discussed this column with hadn't ever been thanked for sex either, but the immediate reaction was a variation on "Well, how did he say it?" And the LW doesn't say, which leads me to conclude, again, that she should calm the hell down.
NumberSix at July 28, 2011 1:43 PM
Guys, the thing about the rose is this: If you give a gift to a stranger, it suggests that you've already decided that she's for you, even before you've met! That makes you seem over-eager and needy, but if the woman has also already decided that she'll probably accept whoever shows up, it'll work out fine...but then, you didn't need the rose in the first place. Get it?
As for saying "thank you" after sex, that is really all about context, and I think many here are missing the point of LW's letter. She says those "aren't the worst two words in the English language", which suggest that she normally wouldn't have minded, yet, after this guy said it, right ater the "first time they'd had sex" she felt "used".
That's because she's now wondering if she'll see him again, which is the agonizing stage right after the first hookup. It's not really about the "thank you", but her suspicion that he just wanted to get laid.
lovelysoul at July 28, 2011 2:37 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2385371">comment from lovelysoullovelysoul, very well-put. That's exactly it in both cases.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2011 2:39 PM
@ kevin_m "Oh God, yes, let's go shopping today"... I collapsed into hysterical laughter at that one!
@ "I carried the watermelon"... a common quote in our household to denote that an awkward moment just passed.
@ Pricklypear... right on!
@ Lovelysoul... i think you hit the nail on the head. LW is ruminating over her low sense of worth and is afraid he won't call her again.
My own input... if a guy said 'thank you' after sex, i'd probably laugh out loud and say 'you're welcome' and in my best Texan accent (i'm Canadian) say 'y'all come back now, ya hear?'
Bluejean Baby at July 28, 2011 3:41 PM
I almost always say 'Thank you' after sex with my wife. I especially like it when she says, 'No, Thank YOU!'
ken in sc at July 28, 2011 5:58 PM
I suspect the 'Thank you' guys may be Southerners.
ken in sc at July 28, 2011 6:01 PM
Bluejean Baby, that's what I figured would come out of my mouth, too. Using humor would probably help with any awkwardness the guy felt after saying thanks (because, again, this was first-time sex, so he was likely just trying for something nice to reassure her).
NumberSix at July 28, 2011 7:10 PM
"Guys, the thing about the rose is this: If you give a gift to a stranger, it suggests that you've already decided that she's for you, even before you've met!"
I once got crapped all over for NOT bringing flowers (or any kind of gift) on a first date. I think it might have been an Asian cultural thing though (she was Asian), or possibly it was a sh-t test .. who knows. But I don't think these "rules" are as logical or universal as implied here at all, because you can "cook up" logic to justify and rationalize either position. "You shouldn't bring gifts, since gifts are for people you know and care about." "You should bring gifts, because it's polite and shows that you are serious and that you take the time out to make some effort when meeting someone." Some things really are basically arbitrary norms, no matter how you try rationalize those norms with post-hoc explanations. Another example, we would usually consider it rude not to finish your food when visiting friends. The post-hoc "explanation" makes perfect sense - it shows you didn't enjoy it much, because you didn't want to finish it. But in some African cultures, it is the exact opposite, i.e. it's rude not to leave some food on your plate, in fact you must leave food on your plate. And the post-hoc "explanation" makes perfect sense too - because leaving some food on your plate proves that you have really eaten until your are full, while finishing your food means you are probably still hungry but don't want to take more food (implying you're not enjoying it). Let's not mistake cultural norms for logic.
On another note, near as I can tell, with women, if she's into you you can do no wrong, if she's not then everything you do is lame. Very generally speaking of course.
Lobster at July 28, 2011 8:00 PM
NumberSix,
Please excuse me as translating "I would likely experience a brief flash of annoyance if a guy thanked me" to mean that you wouldn't like it.
I never indicated that you would act on such a flash or be rude; simply infering your preference.
flydye at July 28, 2011 9:13 PM
Exactly on the cultural thing, Lobster. Same in China. The last course of a meal is a simple bowl of rice that you are supposed to totally ignore, indicating you are full...even if you're not.
But I don't know that this helps with this culture. Amy can only give advice for so many places. Heck, in some parts of the South East, if you aren't willing to get into a fight over any disrespect of your woman, she won't respect you either. Winning doesn't matter. Somehow I doubt Amy is aiming at that demographic.
I think your last comment is perfectly apt. The issue isn't the thank you. It's something else.
And most of the men and women seem to have a problem with how 'universal' THIS segment of advice is. For the most part, I read Amy and what she says makes sense. This one? A bit sketchier.
flydye at July 28, 2011 9:21 PM
Unless it was gasped out after something specific like a blowjob, 'thank you' after sex implies to me that I did something for him, not together with him, and yeah, it'd make me feel a bit icky I think. It would make me feel.. disconnected, at a moment where I really want to feel close and connected to my partner.
I'll take 'Mmm, that was NICE' and a kiss any day of the week, because that would make me feel close and connected to him, like we just shared something.
Anne de Vries at July 29, 2011 1:46 AM
What's wrong with doing something FOR him? It's not meant to imply that you didn't also have sex together, and (hopefully) enjoyed yourself too, but, for most men, having a woman agree to sex is a gift of sorts. Whereas, it's not considered that way for women, as we can basically get laid any time.
Again, if a guy says it in a dismissive tone, like it was a business transaction, it can make a woman feel cheap and used, as LW apparently does. But a "thank you" from a guy who obviously likes you and wants to see you again - or has already been seeing you - should be taken in a positive way.
One of the things that really degrades relationships is the loss of basic manners and respect. "Please" and "Thank you", and other such niceties, go a long way towards keeping a couple happily connected. I think the last thing we'd want to do as women is to suggest saying these things, in a loving, appreciative manner, is offensive.
I mean, what's wrong with responding, "Thank you too!?"
lovelysoul at July 29, 2011 7:01 AM
Lovelysoul makes an interesting and very valid point:
"I think the last thing we'd want to do as women is to suggest saying these things, in a loving, appreciative manner, is offensive."
I think that one of the big mistakes that women as a group can make is to be so hypercritical of behavior that really should get a pass.
The law of unintended consequences applies here because when women enmass declare that a particular action is unacceptible for some reason, men will invariably take note and then begin to desist from that activity. That is great and all for things that are actually offensive, but sometimes it is the INTENT that matters and not th action itself.
As a result it is possible to back yourself into a corner where an action that is actually pleasant or desirable in some circumstances becomes forbidden because the action is deemed offensive in general as oppose to focusing on the intent behind the action.
A good general rule I think is that if someone has good intentions with a particular action, it is best to let things slide, otherwise the only thing they will take from the experience in the future is that it is simply best not to do anything at all lest be chastised for trying to be nice.
A "thank you" falls into the category of something that is probably linked to good intentions. This whole notion of feeling "used" or "disconnected" is an internal emotional state of the other person that is unrelated to the act of saying "thank you".
Sometimes people say thank you for a shared expereince just like sometimes people say sorry for something they had nothing to do with.
Older couples will sometimes thank eachother for sharing their lives together for decades... that doesn't mean that one partner stayed together with the other one for 40+ years as a favor or a service. It was a shared experience that is being appreciated with the "thank you" in such a case.
This interpretation of "thank you" as only being appropriate for favors or service just doesn't ring true as to how those words can be used.
People need to learn to just let things like this slide and be more easy going.
Reality at July 29, 2011 9:19 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2386510">comment from RealityI think that one of the big mistakes that women as a group can make is to be so hypercritical of behavior that really should get a pass.
You can think it's a big mistake, and one of the reasons I think I have such a wonderful relationship with Gregg is that I don't take offense about things many women probably would. This means I get the full benefit of his humor, and we don't fight, and certainly not about stupid things.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2011 9:32 AM
I was reading Dear Prudence yesterday, and she had a guy who wanted to ask his girlfriend's parents for permission to marry her. He got caught going through her phone to find their number, which is another issue, but what struck me is that some female commentors thought it was offensive and apparently a sign of female oppression that he would consult her parents. At least one said she would dump a guy who would do that.
I can see the point that it's an outdated tradition, dating back to when women were chatel -but surely everyone knows that now it's just a sign of respect towards the parents, and (I think) a somewhat charming custom...like the bride's father "giving her away," which, of course, isn't meant literally any more (my dad just gave me away, and I'm 47!).
It does seem like many women are just looking for things to be offended about. I can empathize with why guys are nervous to do anything because it seems there is a growing list of offenses, even some things that would've been offensive NOT to do in the past.
lovelysoul at July 29, 2011 10:09 AM
My girlfriend says "thank you" to me sometimes when I make her feel really good during sex. I've never really thought it made me feel cheap, so if I said it to her (I have) I doubt it made her feel cheap.
This sounds like another feminist problem with always having to play the oppressed victim somehow...
mike at July 29, 2011 10:13 AM
Amy, you hit the nail right on the head: you don't take offense about things many women probably would. Having a GSOH (great sense of humour) is important in this crazy world we live in. Learn to laugh, look at the bright side, be optimistic. There is too much negativity going around. Stop looking for holes in everything. If more people would just let things slide off them, stop taking high offense at the day to day shit that passes us everywhere, or even the shit you step in... life would be easier. For us all.
Bluejean Baby at July 29, 2011 10:16 AM
I feel sorry for men. Women seem to over analyze a lot but never their own short comings. A guy gives you a flower and it's perceived as an insight into his soul or character ? Why can't it be assumed as a nice gesture? It's only a flower!! Thank you after sex? Maybe if she had taken some time to know him a bit better she would be more concerned with him as a person and less with a simple turn of phrase.
Stormy at July 29, 2011 12:46 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2386730">comment from StormyA guy gives you a flower and it's perceived as an insight into his soul or character ? Why can't it be assumed as a nice gesture?
Because it's often not. It's a bribe from an insecure guy or it's a form of romantic autopilot. I don't know about you, but I don't want an insecure guy who thinks he needs to pay me off to like me, nor do I want a guy who gives some cliche girl gift to every girl he has a first date with.
Gregg rocks my world just by giving me half a monkey card he found somewhere, because he knows I love monkeys (chimps, really), and thinks of me. He writes some sweet message on it or on the back of it in Sharpie. Gifts are meaningful when you know somebody and they come from the heart -- not when they come out of a desperate need to be liked by a stranger or an assumption that the most generic boy-to-girl gift to a woman who's a stranger says good things about a guy.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2011 12:56 PM
While I agree that anything more than a simple flower could be taken as desperate and bribe-ish, I think women (and I am one) worry far to much over perceived insults and insights, that they don't look at the big picture. Then they end up like many LWs- complaining that they are "stuck" with someone lazy, emotionally absent, or a general loser. I think if they had been less focused on the little things and more focused on the bigger ones they would see this. I hear stories about women complaining that he did this or that minor subjective breech but him being routinely jobless/slacker is over looked. Then they use the "but I loooove him" like they have no choice. All I'm saying is look at the big picture and the important details will appear. Get to know someone objectively before getting so close.
Stormy at July 29, 2011 1:17 PM
Amy, I agree with you that gifts are meaningful when you know someone and the gifts come from the heart but if a woman gave a gift to me on a first date I wouldn't automatically assume she was insecure or on "romantic autopilot" and dismiss her because of that. If I enjoyed the date -- found her smart, funny and attractive -- I'd want to see her again.
But maybe most women (and most men) are different than me. Maybe they will dismiss someone out-of-hand if they bring a gift on a first date.
Jim at July 29, 2011 1:38 PM
To be fair, both genders have to put their best foot forward upon first meetings, and there are a whole lot of things that women are supposed to do, and ways we need to appear, to be appealing to men. Actually, if you add them all up, they far outweight the issue of "to bring a flower or not bring a flower." Most women would wish that was all they had to worry about on first dates.
The issue of the of the flower is different because it isn't about offending the woman. No woman is going to be offended, and some may truly view it as a sweet gesture. But we mention it, not to bitch about flowers, but to help guys understand that these gifts, at best, are unnecessary (she's going to like you or not like you, regardless), and, at worst, can make you seem needy and unsure of yourself, which isn't going to make you more appealing.
The frustrating part is that there are few hard and fast rules when it comes to affairs of the heart. Even on this topic, it seems we women are fairly divided on whether a "thank you" after sex is appreciated or not. Some don't mind, and others find it offensive.
Bottom line is that if she's into you, she'll probably give you a pass on things that she'd gripe about with someone else...but that is also true in reverse. You guys know you'll let a chick you're really attracted to get away with plenty more than one you're just lukewarm about.
So, really, these tips are more for people who may find themselves in the lukewarm category. If you're thinking you'll give yourself an edge by bringing a flower to your first date or saying "thanks" after sex, don't.
lovelysoul at July 29, 2011 1:45 PM
Amy: A lot of women get ticked at hearing "thank you" after sex, feeling they're being seen as service providers. That's because you thank somebody who does something FOR you, not when you've done something mutual together.
I don't think an après-sex "thank you" per se is wrong. I think it's all in how it's presented. I've had plenty of women say "thank you" to me after sex and I wasn't offended in the least.
I have to adamantly disagree with the assertion in your last sentence. People thank each other all the time after mutual activities: e.g. "thank you for the wonderful dancing", "thanks for the great conversation at dinner tonight."
Jim at July 29, 2011 1:56 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2386856">comment from JimAgain, Jim, it's a risk. And women take an even bigger one by giving a guy a gift on the first date or asking a man out. I have to work on my column, but it's explained in brief by Margo Wilson and Martin Daly's "Sperm are cheap; eggs are expensive" and how women can get pregnant from a single sex act and have a child to feed from it. Men are the chasers of the species. We evolved to be that way and our genes (and our male and female psychologies) haven't gotten the memo about the women's movement or The Pill.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2011 1:58 PM
lovelysoul: ...for most men, having a woman agree to sex is a gift of sorts. Whereas, it's not considered that way for women, as we can basically get laid any time.
lovelysoul, I think that's very perceptive. I don't know if, in general, men tend to thank women after sex more than vice-versa but, if they do, what you noted may play a significant part in that.
Jim at July 29, 2011 2:07 PM
Amy, I wholeheartedly believe that, in our sexual behaviors, we are creatures of genetics/evolution. I'm the last person you need to convince of that. However, as I said in a post under another letter, I don't believe that most men are going to dismiss a woman they find smart, fun and attractive simply because the woman asks them out. Some men? Yes. But not most. I'd never say that women should ask men out but I'll repeat my assertion that if a woman chooses to ask a man out and he's not interested in pursuing things with her, it's very likely because he's not into her for other reasons, not because she asked him out.
Jim at July 29, 2011 2:23 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2386897">comment from JimI don't believe that most men are going to dismiss a woman they find smart, fun and attractive simply because the woman asks them out.
The PROBLEM is that many men won't dismiss a woman who asks them out. This doesn't mean they're interested. Also, when women pursue men, it tends to negatively affect the balance of attraction in the relationship.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2011 2:29 PM
Bottom line is that if she's into you, she'll probably give you a pass on things that she'd gripe about with someone else...but that is also true in reverse. You guys know you'll let a chick you're really attracted to get away with plenty more than one you're just lukewarm about.
lovelysoul, I couldn't agree more.
I don't recall ever bringing or receiving a gift on a first date with one exception. In 1997, I met a woman though a personal ad. When I showed up for our first date at a coffeeshop, she was sitting at a table with a little wrapped package and some balloons. I was puzzled until she said "Happy Birthday." I'd forgotten that we discussed our birthdays in an earlier phone conversation and mine happened to be quite near our date. I suppose a lot of guys could've perceived that as a ploy by an insecure woman (especially since she was overweight) and rejected her out-of-hand because of it, but I found it to be a sweet, thoughtful gesture and because she was smart and cute and great to talk to, I wanted to see her again (and we ended up together for four years.) She was a very sweet and thoughtful woman; that the was the place the gift came from; and I would have missed out on being with a wonderful woman if I'd rejected her.
Jim at July 29, 2011 3:01 PM
The PROBLEM is that many men won't dismiss a woman who asks them out. This doesn't mean they're interested. Also, when women pursue men, it tends to negatively affect the balance of attraction in the relationship.
Amy, they may not dismiss her right away but if they're not that into her for various reasons, they will dump her, sooner or later. And my point is that whenever they dump her, it's because of those various reasons (not attracted to her, not enough compatible interests, different sense of humor, the sex wasn't very good, etc.) not because she asked them out.
I think your last line is true for men and women who tend to be more traditional, but not for everyone. About ten years ago I had a woman pursue me. She was very attractive and I found it flattering. It had no adverse impact on my attraction to her and it seemed to have no negative effect on her attraction to me (although, of course, not being her I can't say for sure how she felt.) But then, I'm not a traditional guy who can only get turned on by "hunting" a woman.
Let me stress again: if I was in a position of giving advice like you are, I wouldn't tell women to ask men out. But what I would say to them is: if you decide to ask a man out and it doesn't work out, it's because you were rejected. Accept it and move on.
Jim at July 29, 2011 3:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2386986">comment from JimMen tend to value women more when they have to lay themselves on the line to get them, even just a little.
Women shouldn't ask men out. They should flirt and let the guy play a role. Romance is a dance, not a monologue.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2011 3:52 PM
"I agree with you that gifts are meaningful when you know someone and the gifts come from the heart but if a woman gave a gift to me on a first date"
Hmm, it never even occurred to me that it might happen the other way around, but I must admit I'd find it a little weird if a woman gave me a gift on a first date. Probably because it's not generally done, but then again, I don't really like getting gifts at all, even from people I know well, so maybe it's just me.
Lobster at July 29, 2011 8:52 PM
Men tend to value women more when they have to lay themselves on the line to get them, even just a little.
Amy, I don't doubt at all that this is true for men who are more traditional. It's certainly not true for me. I value women for who they are, not based on whether I had to "get" them. I didn't value that woman who pursued me any less than the women I've been with who didn't.
I said above that I agree with you in believing that, in our sexual behaviors, we are creatures of genetics/evolution. But being creatures of doesn't mean we are captives of. Genetics/evolution may have given men the predisposition to be the chasers and for women to be chased, but that doesn't mean we're locked into those roles.
Jim at July 30, 2011 10:54 AM
Women shouldn't ask men out. They should flirt and let the guy play a role. Romance is a dance, not a monologue.
What women should do is what they feel like doing. If they don't want to ask men out, then they shouldn't. And I'm sure this describes the vast majority of women. If they do feel like asking a man out, then they should (but if they do this, of course, they should be prepared for the same kind of rejection that men have to deal with all the time.)
Yes, romance is a dance. And men traditionally lead in a dance. But if a woman were to lead, that doesn't turn the dance into a monologue, or a chat on a park bench. It's still a dance, with both people playing a role.
Jim at July 30, 2011 12:03 PM
"Men tend to value women more when they have to lay themselves on the line to get them, even just a little."
All of this bile over "thank you"?
I'd hate to see the reaction people would have to some of the things I'VE said afterwards.
Rik at July 31, 2011 12:14 AM
Oops, left something out, sorry:
"Men tend to value women more when they have to lay themselves on the line to get them, even just a little."
That goes both ways.
Rik at July 31, 2011 12:16 AM
I believe the tone, delivery and context of his words were more important than the actual "thank you."
Personally, I am not offended by anyone that is offering me thanks. I think Amy might be a bit wrong-minded on this one by saying "A lot of women get ticked at hearing "thank you" after sex, feeling they're being seen as service providers." Some women may be offended, but then again some women are very easy to offend.
LW is overanalyzing.
LauraGr at July 31, 2011 1:59 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2389488">comment from LauraGrSome women may be offended, but then again some women are very easy to offend.
Yes. Again, the point isn't whether a woman "should" be offended (and I explained what might've gone on from his end in my answer -- did you read it?). The point here is that women ARE often offended by this.
Would I be offended by this? No. Again, I don't give advice based on what I would do or think. I tell people what's out there. Many women are offended in a situation like this. If you're a guy, wouldn't you rather know that?
Amy Alkon at July 31, 2011 2:17 PM
I read your answer Amy. I just disagree a bit with your generalization that "a lot" of women would be offended. Some women will be offended by almost anything. I am quite certain that some would be offended by being thanked after sex. I'm not convinced it is a lot of women. I truly don't think that most would be offended by a thank you. It is more of a quibble over word choice and usage.
I think to answer the the LW's question requires us to know the tone and context of the thanks, which was not provided. Especially since it requires us to crack open the man's brain and see his intentions, if any.
Was it a cold "thank you" because the man gives the required words even if he is not particularly thankful? Was it an automatic "thank you" from a well-brought-up fellow because all the man's blood exited his upper brain during coitus? Was it a "thank you" because the guy was having 'just had sex the first time' awkwardness and he blanked on something cool, suave and perfect to say?
I think the LW's feeling bad over being thanked is more of a reflection of her than him.
LauraGr at July 31, 2011 3:51 PM
I think the LW's feeling bad over being thanked is more of a reflection of her than him.
I definitely think you're right on with that. Because there's no indication of tone in the letter, which I find odd. Even someone like, say, me, who might possibly have a first-blush annoyance at a thank you over a mutually agreed-upon activity, would consider the tone and take that into account. Then there are women who need very little provocation to obsess and over-analyze. I think LW's Post-Coital Brain Cloud led her to obsess over her own perceived inadequacies rather than what her date actually thought.
NumberSix at July 31, 2011 8:23 PM
Im kinda on the other end. My husband hates it but sometimes I tell him thank you after sex. Especially when I really want it, I go after it, and he give it to me! More so when I wake him up and make him have sex! I thank him if he has really made me feel loved and connected to him, or if he has taken time out of his limited rest time to please me. He feels that this isnt a really appropriate thing to thank someone for, but there are times when a Thank You says everything else you cant find words for
Elshiva at August 1, 2011 12:01 PM
I asked this question to a large female-only online community and the answers were about 50/50 split between 'fine' and 'urgh'. So if you insist on doing it you're going to encounter mixed reactions.
And to clarify, it does not make me feel offended, or angry - it makes me feel squirmy and disconnected. That is not a decision I make, it's just the effect that sentiment has on me. 'Thank you' to me seperates Us into You and Me. I would always chose words that emphasise togetherness rather than distance. What's wrong with 'that was wonderful' or something on the line, anyway?
Maybe this is also partially a culture thing. In my culture you don't generally thank people for shared experiences, you just express your pleasure with the experience
Anne de Vries at August 2, 2011 5:40 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/not-into-thanki.html#comment-2392508">comment from Anne de VriesThanks, Anne de Vries...well-put. And thanks for asking women about this.
Amy Alkon at August 2, 2011 5:50 AM
Anne de Vries Says:
"In my culture you don't generally thank people for shared experiences, you just express your pleasure with the experience"
And which culture is this?
I will assume that you are talking about American culture. If that is the case I will have to disagree with your assessment.
People do thank each other for shared experiences all the time. Here are some examples:
Have you ever thanked someone for a pleasant conversation? Conversations are a shared experience.
Have you ever thanked someone for spending time with you? Spending time with anyone else is by definition a shared experience.
There are countless other examples where people will express appreciation with a "thank you" that is not intended to imply that the recipient of the "thank you" was performing a service.
Based upon the logic your rationale it would be appropriate to thank the waiter at a restaurant for serving you, but not to thank your date for going there with you.
Now based upon a very strict understanding of the English language you might actually be correct. It might be proper to instead say "that was a wonderful dinner". However that isn't how "thank you" is used in a colloquial sense.
My feelings on this issue now are that anyone who absolutely insists that the words “thank you” only be used in a very specific set of instances better make sure that they always use language in the exact proper form in every other instance.
If someone is going to be a stickler for proper sentence structure then it would only seem fair for them to hold themselves to the same standards they are holding others to. I mean, what if they were to say something as horrible as “me and my friends went out” during a conversation, I can hardly imagine the horror on the persons face who would have to hear such a thing.
Reality at August 2, 2011 8:05 AM
And which culture is this?
I will assume that you are talking about American culture. If that is the case I will have to disagree with your assessment.
Why on earth would you assume that? I'm Dutch. Not everybody on the internet is American, or always talking about American culture only. I am talking about my culture.
The first time somebody (a British boyfriend) thanked me for cooking for them I was a little baffled. It's not wrong, but it an uncommon thing to say over here, as we tend to compliment the meal instead. To me thanking somebody sometimes creates a power distance. Or rather, thanking somebody implies that there was a power distance that is not being.. bridged.. by the thanking. In some situations that's completely ingrained and accepted, and in some situations it can be uncomfortable.
The community I asked is overwhelmingly British, by the way - a culture that is as into linguistic lubricant as you can get. Then still about 50% of the replies were 'Urgh'. Make of that what you will.
Anne de Vries at August 3, 2011 4:34 AM
Anne de Vries Says:
“Why on earth would you assume that? I'm Dutch. Not everybody on the internet is American, or always talking about American culture only. I am talking about my culture.”
Well if you noticed I did begin my statement by asking you what your culture was.
I asked this question specifically because you didn’t tell us what culture you were talking about. Don’t you think it is kind of unfair for you to make a claim about your culture without referencing what that culture is only to them blame me for trying to make an educated guess?
If you had told us the culture then I wouldn’t have had to make any assumptions at all.
As for why I would assume you were American, well the reason is quite simple… Amy is an American syndicated columnist. As a result is isn’t totally crazy to work under the premise that a substantial portion of her readers and commenter will be from America.
I actually think the more fair question would be “Why on earth would I assume you were Dutch?”
According to wikipedia, the total Dutch population is 16 million. By contrast, the population of the United States alone is over 300 million.
So sure… I’m the nutty one for not correctly guessing that you were from a culture with 16 million people on a planet with about 7 billion. The odds of me correctly guessing your culture based upon random chance is less than half a percent.
As a result, if you are going to talk about a very small culture (one that comprises less than 1 percent of the world population) it seems reasonable for you to tell people what that culture is instead of acting like it is unreasonable for someone to assume you are from a much larger culture.
So if you ever end up chatting on a Chinese message board and reference your culture, please do not act confused when someone there makes the incorrect guess that you might be Chinese too.
“The first time somebody (a British boyfriend) thanked me for cooking for them I was a little baffled. It's not wrong, but it an uncommon thing to say over here, as we tend to compliment the meal instead. To me thanking somebody sometimes creates a power distance. Or rather, thanking somebody implies that there was a power distance that is not being.. bridged.. by the thanking. In some situations that's completely ingrained and accepted, and in some situations it can be uncomfortable.”
I understand this. However I will take another guess that there are probably things that are common in Dutch culture that might make a British person or an American person uncomfortable. This is the way cultures are. What is totally common and reasonable in one culture can be perceived as an insult in another.
This is why I am focused on the intent. If no insult was intended, then it seems rather petty and childish to be offended.
I submit the following you tube video for your consideration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiuKQ44YI8
This is a video of a first dance at a wedding. The song that starts off is interrupted by a song written and recorded by the groom called “thank you for loving me”. Now here are my questions regarding the video:
1 - Does the bride look insulted or uncomfortable or angry or having any other negative emotion?
It looks to me like she is at first surprised and then totally taken with how sweet and romantic the gesture was.
2 - What was there to gain in this instance with her taking significant offense at this gesture?
My perspective is that if he wrote a song for her, put his heart into it to express how he feels, and then she got all pissed off and offended because he thanked her for the shared experience of loving each other, that perhaps she isn’t the kind of person that should be in a long term relationship.
This “power distance” you are talking about is a bunch of hogwash. I believe this because while it can be perceived on the recipients side, none of that power dynamic has to even be on the radar of the person who says “thank you”.
I can actually give you several other examples from popular culture of people thanking one another for shared experiences, and none of them are intended to be offensive or off putting.
Taking offense when no insult is intended is petty and childish and has no place in a mature and happy relationship.
Reality at August 3, 2011 9:11 AM
To me thanking somebody sometimes creates a power distance. Or rather, thanking somebody implies that there was a power distance that is not being.. bridged.. by the thanking.
Isnt it great when victim identity idiologies permerate an entire cutlure and a simple 'thank you' is transformed into transformed in to a genderwide power struggle where somehow, magically, men are assholes even when they are being nice?
lujlp at August 3, 2011 10:53 AM
Isnt it great when victim identity idiologies permerate an entire cutlure and a simple 'thank you' is transformed into transformed in to a genderwide power struggle where somehow, magically, men are assholes even when they are being nice? lujlp
Ooooh. Diabolical. I wonder what they mean when they say "you're welcome." Something fiendish, without doubt. Luj nailed it.
LauraGr at August 4, 2011 9:00 AM
"I had no idea [sex] could be so.... Professional."
--Dr. Hfuhruhurr, "The Man With Two Brains"
Frank at August 8, 2011 11:16 AM
Doesn't it come back to respect for yourself and for your partner? Give him the respect of assuming he was trying to be nice, and yourself the choice to go out with him again when he calls.
Michele at August 9, 2011 12:19 AM
My man and I often thank each other after having great sex together. It feels loving and natural to say it because sex is a huge value for us.
Rona at September 5, 2011 2:56 AM
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