Casual Coroner
I dress like a tomboy: jeans, T-shirts, hoodies, and work boots. My boyfriend of a year wants me to wear skirts and dresses more often. Nothing trashy. Just not my usual tomboy wear. This weekend, I wore a sundress to brunch. It made him so happy, and he kept telling me how beautiful I looked. I did feel a little uncomfortable because I'm not used to dressing like that. Some women in my circle are like, "He should accept you as you are. Don't change for a man." Am I giving up some important source of power?
--Redressed
Your boyfriend's asking you to sometimes wear a dress for him, not hold out your wrist so he can chain you to the pipe in the basement with the six other sister wives.
There are women out there who still see dressing to please a man as some sort of Stockholm syndrome thing -- participating in your own (flouncy, spaghetti-strapped) subjugation. So, it's possible that those advising you "Don't change for a man!" are just trying to help you be a modern and empowered woman. Of course, one could argue that actually being a modern and empowered woman means you don't have to dress like you're hoping to get a call to clean out a sewer line.
Maybe those in your advice coven really do believe they're acting in your best interest. Maybe. Social psychologists Roy Baumeister and Jean Twenge report that it's widely believed that men drive the "cultural suppression of female sexuality" -- which could include shaming women for how they dress. However, in reviewing the research, they make a persuasive case that it's primarily women (often without awareness of their motives) who work to "stifle each other's sexuality."
This is right in keeping with research on female competition. While men fight openly -- "Bring it! I will ruin you!" -- women take a sneakier approach. As female competition researcher Tracy Vaillancourt explains it, women fight for their interests using "indirect aggression," like gossip, mean looks, disparaging remarks, and other underhanded tactics to "reduce the mate value of a rival." Underhanded tactics? You know -- like suggesting you're selling out womankind if you wear a skirt or winged eyeliner.
In other words, your best interest and these other women's may diverge -- though they may not consciously intend to hurt you. As for whether you should throw on a dress from time to time, consider that if you love somebody, you do sweet things for them. Sometimes, this requires a bit of a stretch on your part -- like from the teen boys' section of the department store to that rack in the women's department. A person's clothes say a lot about them, and a man will be happier if his girlfriend's don't scream, "My hobby is crushing beer cans against my forehead."
For some reason, women want to be men, or at least a lot like men. But cis-het men really, really like feminine women. We are not afraid of the others, nor are we threatened by then, but dammit we are attracted by girlie girls.
DrPinWV at September 20, 2016 6:11 PM
It's true. All men and women are exactly the same, and like the same things. I will inform my big, burly, manly-man husband that his tendency to get a crush on cute butches means he's not actually a cis-het dude. (He also likes frilly femmes, and those intermediary types like myself who love makeup and lingerie, but are also pretty darn good at fixing a leaky kitchen sink if need be. Maybe even *in* lingerie, if he asks real nice.)
Anathema at September 20, 2016 8:07 PM
LW should do this sometime: Dress like he's a Wall Street mogul. See how SHE responds.
I've done it; it works.
jefe at September 20, 2016 8:19 PM
Self-realization or -determination simply does not mean you get to be a slob without advertising you like to be one.
Here's why we like Asian girls.
I mean, even if they're coldly expert, like Elementary's Joan Watson, whew!
Radwaste at September 20, 2016 11:08 PM
Ack, it's my wife. Or as some say, the hoodie queen.
All I want is for her to be able to dress so that lawyers, bankers, and judges will take her seriously and not run all over her. I don't care how she dresses most of the time. But it is important to be able to dress professionally and be comfortable in those clothes some times. Which takes practice.
(And no, my wife is not really the LW)
Ben at September 21, 2016 6:13 AM
Gonna disagree. If you are uncomfortable, don't do it. It would be one thing if she was comfortable and felt good, but she doesn't.
Is there an in between here? Nice slacks? A stretch jersey dress?
NicoleK at September 21, 2016 6:28 AM
"Am I giving up some important source of power?"
Heaven forbid that LW should occasionally do something simple, low-cost (in almost every way), and non-injurious that so obviously pleases her SO and may greatly enhance the relationship. Nope, wouldn't want to give up any o' that awesome grrrl-power.
Sheesh, LW needs some new friends.
bkmale at September 21, 2016 6:40 AM
Oh please, NicoleK. My husband thinks Annie Hall is the epitome of sexy. Am I comfortable in that look? Not really. I'd rather wear a dress when we go out, but I love my husband and love the reaction I get when I put on some pants and a vest.
RebeccaJ at September 21, 2016 6:41 AM
But she doesn't.
NicoleK at September 21, 2016 7:29 AM
If her reaction was, "I loved the reaction I got from him!" I'd agree.
But her reaction was, "I was uncomfortable".
Unless Amy edited out some enthusiasm...
NicoleK at September 21, 2016 7:30 AM
Yes, NicoleK, you should never, ever do anything for your boyfriend if it makes you even slightly uncomfortable.
By the way, does that also work both ways? So, if the faucet leaks, we can just say, "Gee, lying on my back with my head under the sink turning wrenches just doesn't make me feel comfortable"?
Oh, of course, I forgot. That's just women who never have to do anything for men. Men are the privileged class, so they, of course, are obligated to do everything a woman wants, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes him feel.
God forbid we should ever do favors for the people we love that don't always make us feel completely at ease or comfortable. How dare he ask a single favor of his girlfriend?
She should have shown up in a plaid flannel shirt, bluejeans and workboots, accessorized with a toolbelt. That will show him!
"Oh, you didn't tell me your girlfriend was a lesbian! How interesting."
And by the way, from what I gather, he just asked for a dress. The sundress was her idea.
Patrick at September 21, 2016 8:00 AM
"I did feel a little uncomfortable because I'm not used to dressing like that."
I agree w/NicoleK if the LW is truly uncomfortable then her boyfriend needs to back off.
What she does for him in the bedroom (short skirts w/sheer blouses and etc.) should do it. If it doesn't they need to really look at their compatibility as something is not right.
Obviously after-hours work functions at holidays require some compromise ...
Bob in Texas at September 21, 2016 8:50 AM
"He should accept you as you are." But she can't accept him as he is, that is, as a guy who prefers to see his girlfriend in a dress. The boyfriend should find another girl.
DrPinWV at September 21, 2016 9:23 AM
I wish LW would have indicated whether it made her extremely happy (or whatever) when her BF kept saying how lovely she looked. If that made her happy, then screw the friends' comments and power worries. As Amy said, it's not like she's being chained to the attire. She can choose. If his happiness and comments didn't really move her, maybe it's not worth it to her. But it sounds like she does care how he feels.
Rachel Flax at September 21, 2016 12:04 PM
No, LW, you are not giving up a source of power. You are discovering a new one.
FrauleinGretel at September 21, 2016 1:42 PM
Maybe it's not the dress but the fact that it was "something different" or "something she put thought into."
Tomboy attire can be very chic and can involve fun things like combat boots and bomber jackets.
I know that I always go overboard praising my husband when he puts any thought at all into an outfit. It's not necessarily that he put on a *blazer*, but the fact that it's different from his daily uniform. I'm just as happy with any deviation from the norm because it's a little way of saying, "I care."
sofar at September 21, 2016 2:10 PM
"Men [...] are obligated to do everything a woman wants, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes him feel."
Silly Patrick. Males don't have feelings!
dee nile at September 21, 2016 4:00 PM
"All I want is for her to be able to dress so that lawyers, bankers, and judges will take her seriously and not run all over her."
A wonderful and capable lady at work cut nearly three feet of her hair off because the hundreds of corporate customers didn't think it was appropriate. They said so by continually ignoring her in favor of those in her office who "look more like managers".
Sometimes you must choose between what you think and what others do.
Radwaste at September 21, 2016 7:37 PM
Oh my fucking sides, that fucking article....LMAO hahahahahhahaha
Do you want to know the other side of it? Because white guys have a reputation of only liking ugly Asian women. What's that Thai saying? "If you see a man kissing a dog you know he's an American". That's the stereotype from the Asian perspective. You guys like their ugly, trashy women. Ask any Asian from any country (including this one) and they all have that same stereotype.
So to me it's hilarious reading this article. Because this fucking author says how awful and ugly American women dress and act and what beautiful goddesses Asian women are......and yet the flip side is the incredible desire I hear about American white women many foreign men have. So are American white women eeevvilll harppees and Asian women sweet, feminine goddesses? Or are Asian women ugly, materialistic entitled bitches and American white women exotic, slutty ,friendly real life fantasies?
Hahaha. Men make up the funniest justifications in their heads to explain their attractions. The truth is it's easier to score with someone of a different cultural background because you're the "other". That's why you're BOTH friendlier, nicer, more excited.
Reality is men just like pretty women and your personality as a woman is secondary to your looks. If you're pretty and fit you can be as foul as you want because men STILL interpret it as friendliness. Just look into the studies. Men's brain interpret any attractive women as being nice.
Ppen at September 21, 2016 10:23 PM
Don't destroy the dream Ppen.
Please.
We are fragile misunderstood creatures just looking for a LBFM.
Bob in Texas at September 22, 2016 5:46 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2016/09/casual-coroner.html#comment-6528230">comment from PpenMen make up the funniest justifications in their heads to explain their attractions. The truth is it's easier to score with someone of a different cultural background because you're the "other".
Great point, Ppen.
Amy Alkon at September 22, 2016 6:27 AM
May be just a compatibility thing.
For every guy who sneers at women who don't wear dresses there is a guy who sneers at women who do. (Never been mansplained about how you shouldn't wear make-up and that the guy mansplaining is more of a feminist than you because he hates make up? Consider yourself lucky).
She should go for one of the au naturel guys.
NicoleK at September 22, 2016 7:12 AM
I'm gonna say if you really hate fixing the sink or whatever and your wife insists on it, then your wife needs to let it go. Call a plumber.
NicoleK at September 22, 2016 7:15 AM
No, LW, you are not giving up a source of power. You are discovering a new one.
FrauleinGretel is wise.
Pirate Jo at September 22, 2016 7:19 AM
Its just been a hilarious experience hearing men telling me how awful women from their homeland are but WOMEN FROM X-LAND ARE GREAT BECAUSE THEYRE NICER/SWEETER/FITTER/LESS MATERIALISTIC/MORE HARDWORKING/MORE NATURAL!
They ALL list the exact same reasons. Lmao. You fucking moron you just have an easier time scoring with foreign women because you're foreign.
ppen at September 22, 2016 7:52 AM
FraulineGretel hit it on the head. Not only does LW get another source of power but also a way to please her man, a two-fer.
Anytime my lady asks me to dress a certain way, I'm gonna do it. I see my job as making her happy...and then I get all the goodies in return. And that's another two-fer!
What happened to giving...and loving?
stuo at September 23, 2016 8:37 PM
@ NicoleK
It is a DRESS! We are not talking bondage or some other form of torture. And hey...let's talk about WHY this woman feels 'uncomfortable' in clothing which, until not even 2 decades ago, was considered de rigueur for women's fashion.
Hint: it was not men teaching women that dresses were 'submitting to the patriarchy'.
I dislike the absolutism inherent in your statement 'if she is uncomfortable'. It removes any discussion or compromise based on a feeling, and frankly, probably not a very well thought out feeling at that.
"Daddy, I don't want to learn how to swim. The water makes me uncomfortable."
"Mom, this insistence on learning math is uncomfortable to me."
"Honey, visiting your mother is very uncomfortable. I know I only met her once but I feel very judged by her. So since my feeling trump everything else, I will never visit the old biddy again."
Hmm. When changed from 'women's empowerment' to other decisions where extra exposure to a new experience may change 'discomfort' to 'wildly pleasurable' or even just 'tolerable', it shows how childish this position is.
Okay...he doesn't get dresses. He needs to put that in his 'relationship scale'. I wouldn't say to throw away a relationship over this. But I would certainly see how many other ways fiats and absolutism are inherent in her attitude.
How sad that we have gone from women being 'a creature unlike any other' to 'gender indeterminate in a hoodie'.
FIDO at September 23, 2016 10:05 PM
@Ppen
I recall chatting with some guys. They were going on and on about how submissive, sweet, sexually alluring and totally wonderful Asian (in this case Japanese) women were.
Being the only person who was in a relationship with an Asian woman, I quickly corrected them: Asian Women are like any other women. Sometimes sweet, sometimes bat shit crazy, and having their own views and needs.
However, I think you are a bit too dismissive and unfair.
Most Asian cultures today have this incredible 'fetish' for the fairest of white skins like Han Dynasty Chinese had for bound feet or Thai Royalty for blackened teeth.
So girls with average skin quality, features, form, hair etc will get an automatic '+2' as long as she is tallish and has white skin if the man is Asian.
A 'fair' girl in Asia is a class indicator as much as a beauty indicator. She can avoid the sun and/or buy a ton of products to give her fair skin.
American guys are less impressed by that Asian 'scarcity' (as few 'fair' women in Asia as there are redheads or natural double D cups in the West) Fairness is a given there.
One man's trash and what not.
You have A point. But not ALL of the Truth.
FIDO at September 23, 2016 10:30 PM
Not to pile on too hard Ppen, but this 'other' attraction doesn't extend in general. The 'other' factor can allow someone to score a bit higher than they would in their own culture. But not all 'others' are the same. Black women in america have a relatively harder time attracting men of other cultures and skin colors. The implied culture attached to a specific 'other' matters.
Ben at September 24, 2016 8:45 AM
I'd be interested to know the LW's age. I'm guessing she's pretty young.
The tomboy look was a thing among hipster girls when I was younger, and most girls my age were able to pull it off. When you're young and pretty, you can wear almost anything and guys will still think you're cute.
But it's not a look that ages well. Once you get a bit older, you stop looking like a cute tomboy and start looking like a guy or a lesbian.
The LW will do well to learn to dress like an adult and stop letting her friends pressure her into looking a certain way. Because Amy's right, women's advice to other women on these matters tends to be a combination of wishful thinking and sabotage.
margo at September 24, 2016 2:35 PM
" But not all 'others' are the same. Black women in america have a relatively harder time attracting men of other cultures and skin colors. The implied culture attached to a specific 'other' matters."
When white men decided to cross the race barrier, their choice is mainly Asian female. When white female decided to cross the race barrier, their choice is mainly black male.
As a result, the black females and Asian males will be left out struggling not to die as a virgin.
In a perfect world, if the black females and Asian males get together to start a family, we will have a peace on earth.
So, I ask you when was your last time to see black females and Asian males kissing each other in movies or real life?
Never. We have not seen that even in porn. I do not know why that is. I really don't.
Please enlighten me, Ppen.
chang at September 24, 2016 3:31 PM
" But not all 'others' are the same. Black women in america have a relatively harder time attracting men of other cultures and skin colors. The implied culture attached to a specific 'other' matters."
When white men decided to cross the race barrier, their choice is mainly Asian female. When white female decided to cross the race barrier, their choice is mainly black male.
As a result, the black females and Asian males will be left out struggling not to die as a virgin.
In a perfect world, if the black females and Asian males get together to start a family, we will have a peace on earth.
So, I ask you when was your last time to see black females and Asian males kissing each other in movies or real life?
Never. We have not seen that even in porn. I do not know why that is. I really don't.
Please enlighten me, Ppen.
chang at September 24, 2016 3:32 PM
Amazing how many here dismiss attitude and behavior out of hand. Flawless, I guess.
Radwaste at September 26, 2016 9:11 AM
Radwaste
Could you clarify what you mean?
FIDO at September 27, 2016 2:00 AM
FIDO,
You missed my point. Having spent time in Asia I personally think Asian beauty standards are ridiculous and absurd. Those "ugly" women that white men are accused of obsessing over are perfectly attractive.
And true Asians have a fetish for white people but you are all still inferior to whatever their particular nationality happens to be. Personally I think their racism is disgusting but because it benefits white men so much many use it to remind the rest of us of the supposed inferiority of the white American female. It is just absolutely fucking annoying beyond belief.
All those traits that these creepos list: submissiveness, sweetness, sexual alluring---yuck I don't want to hear your fucking fantasies anymore than you want to hear mine.
My overall point by the way is that supposedly Asian females are better than white females because they are sweeter. You know what? Men from other cultures say the exact same thing about WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. So who is telling the truth?
I will tell you who? If you've got no game with your own kind then you probably have some kind of personality problem so whoever you are doing well with just seems better because they don't find you repulsive.
Ppen at September 27, 2016 10:44 AM
"So, I ask you when was your last time to see black females and Asian males kissing each other in movies or real life?"
Yesterday. Mitswuwa supermarket. I highly recommend their ramen. BTW the couple was very tall and good looking.
Oh and on tv? On Univision Ilia calderon often does features with her Korean-American husband.
My friends grandma (black) is married to a Chinese-American guy.
It happens, it's just rare. What's the point of this anyways? I don't know.........maybe I should tell you about the weird inter-racial couple that was my grandparents.....
And white men, my impression of them at least, is that they are pretty open to dating any race as long as the person is skinny. The fact that a minority of them turn creepy around Asian women, just gives them a bad rap when generally they seem pretty open to everybody.
Ppen at September 27, 2016 11:09 AM
Ppen,
Let me start by agreeing with you. I have, when overseas, seen a girl and been initially attracted. But then I checked myself. I removed the dusky skin, the different mode of dress and cast her as a Caucasian female in my imagination..and laughed at myself. Without the exotic, she was nothing special at all looks wise.
There is a cachet to 'foreign/different'...whether it is dusky skin, almond eyes...or that British accent that has all the girls going damp panties. (Jungle Fever anyone?)
Foreign men want to tear off a piece of American women because THEY ARE AMERICAN WOMEN. Not because they are sweet and alluring. Not because they are thin, or fat, or whatever.
America is top of the food chain culturally and who doesn't want to fuck the sociological prom queen?
So that sweet alluring thing? Maybe...Maybe you need to take it with a grain of salt. Men say anything to get into panties.
Americans have as much foreign cachet to foreigners as they have for us. (Though I hear a LOT of Thai women getting rather sick of their Thai men...some things are universal)
Fantasies are fantasies and the 'grass is greener' mentality is not limited to men only. I can't tell you how many of my wifes friends thought getting divorced and trading up would be simple, to use another analogy.
They, like men experiencing Yellow Fever, are mostly WROOONNGGG!
That being said: men like easy. Gender dynamics in America are getting very heated with most of the noise coming from these supposedly sweet American girls.
Take a look at this situation here. A rather pedestrian preference by her boyfriend has now become a gender issue. And we aren't talking, AFAIK, him wanting her to dress like a prostitute. Just. A. Dress.
In a lot of cultures, the women there would LAUGH at these kind of First World Problems.
American Girl: "Oh my God! I don't like dresses. What does he think I am, a Barbi doll? Will he think if I roll over on everything else? Maybe something sexual? What will my girlfriends think if I suddenly start wearing dresses like 80% of the female population EVERYWHERE? Let me get a bottle of whine (sic) and discuss all the permutations of his request. God forbid he be attracted to me!"
Thai Girl: "Okay, as long as I get to pick it out."
So if you can't see how this adds a certain premium to the relationship 'cost' of an American girl...well...it seems some significant minority men disagree with you, if plummeting marriage rates are any indication.
That being said, at least these Asian women are taking all these 'losers' off your hands
You should thank them.
FIDO at September 27, 2016 9:01 PM
Plummeting marriage rates are an indication that both men and women don't want to get married. It isn't just men choosing not to get married (unlike alot of the users here believe), it is women too at equal rates.
And I'm not a white woman or a white man. I'm not even Asian. So really nobody is taking anything off my hands. I'm just an outside observer who is annoyed by white guys feeling the need to enlighten me how much BETTER Asian women are than American women.
Nah. Nope. Don't buy it. I really really don't.
That certain premium in an American girl isn't found in other cultures? I mean again....as an outside observer....like what? It seems that culturally Asian women put Asian men through fucking hell to prove their financial worth.....that isn't a premium? Just because you guys escape it cuz you are "foreign"....well "foreign" men escape it too with American girls. So we go full circle here.
Nobody is loosing out on anything it appears.
So all in all, women are women worldwide. I really have not found a difference. The only thing that I have found is that men tend to make these fantasies about them and then expect the rest of us to not chuckle at the ridiculousness of it all and take linked articles by old as hell racist white guys seriously.
Ppen at September 27, 2016 10:37 PM
Great stuff Ppen. As an american woman residing in Latin America for past decade I get points before I even open my mouth, its like gaining a million dollars and losing 10 years just because of the cultural fantasies attached to me.
Its pleasant. And it can be played. Tons of foreign women "play" the American guys who will be happy with a fantasy, then are surprised when they move the Ukranian, Moroccan, Thai whatever female to the US and she learns the language and culture and surprise - she is no longer their submissive fantasy. In some scenarios the women play off of this and do lots of damage. I mean this was well known after WWII with German and Japanese war brides - the rescue fantasy only lasts for so long.
Men should be very careful of their fantasy lives when they start to convert them into reality. Well we all should.
zapf at September 28, 2016 7:57 AM
"Could you clarify what you mean?"
My link was to an article that described the behavior of Asian women in flattering terms, whereupon some here pooh-poohed it on the assumption that "being foreign" was the reason for civility.
After disposing of part of the challenge by noting that Fred Reed is neither sheltered nor shy, I note that my reason for submitting the link was to show how attitude, NOT nationality, was first. The American woman in combat casuals bemoans a lack of attention when dressed to avoid such attention, yet the defense against Asians is that they're just foreign. Wow, who'da thought?
-----
"In some scenarios the women play off of this and do lots of damage. I mean this was well known after WWII with German and Japanese war brides - the rescue fantasy only lasts for so long."
"Rescue" is markedly different from establishing a relationship. Ask MarkD.
Radwaste at September 28, 2016 11:45 AM
Boy have the comments really devolved here...
Changing how you dress to please your boyfriend is a bit sticky. Clothing is really personal for women. I'm not sure how it is for men.
I have an ex who liked me to wear red lipstick, high heels, and painted nails. It just *so* wasn't me. I look terrible in red lipstick; it doesn't go with my coloring at all. I did it occasionally, for him, but it never felt comfortable.
The guy I ended up marrying wanted me to stop shaving everything, and so I did, and wow I really liked it. I threw away all the nail polish and red lipstick and my razor and never looked back!
So I think it's definitely worth trying if your boyfriend requests something of you... but if you keep doing it and it's just really not you and you can't get used to it... then don't do it! Or save it for special occasions, anyway.
Renee at March 13, 2017 6:45 AM
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