The Powerlessness Of Prayer
If you pray, and your four-year-old daughter dies anyway, of some horrible disease, does that mean (A), The Big Guy was watching that morning you left a rather stinky tip at the diner, and it's payback time? Or, is it because (B), The Big Guy is a bigtime jerk and thinks he'll snuff a few four-year-olds today, and yours happened to be one of them? Or could it be because (C), there is no Big Guy (there certainly is no evidence he exists) and the world is a totally random place in which sweet, darling four-year-olds get terribly sick and die painfully?
Now, I know it's going to be hard for some of you more entrenched god afficionados, but try to forget that some guy in a long funny robe told you (and me) there is a Big Guy, and maybe even said (based on zero evidence) that you'd fry till the end of time if you didn't believe in said Big Guy. How about you just be really, really honest and pick the only answer here which makes any sense: C! There is no evidence of the existence of god, heaven, or hell, and we've all got a very short time on this planet in which to make a real difference, so we'd all better drag our big, lardy asses out of our houses and "houses of worship" and do something!
This brings me to an article in Sunday's LA Times by K. Connie Kang, about "The Presidential Prayer Team," which "uses the Internet to alert 3 million people a week to appeal to God on behalf of soldiers, officials and others." In other words, lots of religious people across America are thinking lots of nice thoughts in behalf of the troops:
Someone had registered the names of Todd and Trevor Harris with the Adopt Our Troops campaign of the Presidential Prayer Team, a nondenominational Christian prayer group on the Internet. Soon, hundreds of thousands of strangers across the country were praying for the brothers.
Too bad all the praying people aren't putting their wishful thinking time into something that really matters -- such as petitioning the Pentagon to give the troops modern bullet-proof vests that actually have a prayer of stopping a modern bullet. Far too many of the troops have, in the words of Jonathan Turley, "Vietnam-era flak jacket that cannot stop the type of weapons used today." According to Turley, "parents across the country are now purchasers of body armor because of the failure of the military to supply soldiers with modern vests." Turley tells how one soldier's schoolteacher mother spent more than a week's salary buying her son the ceramic plates needed to stop bullets so he can tape them to his Pentagon-issued, antique bullet-useless vest. (Excuse me, but is this soccer practice or a war? Because if it's a war, maybe mommy shouldn't have to supply the uniform.)
While the naive praying millions certainly "have their heart in the right place"; if they really want to help the troops (instead of simply thinking they're helping the troops), they need to get off their knees, march to the Pentagon and make an ungodly amount of noise about this issue. An Internet "Presidential Take Action! Team" in place of the "Presidential Prayer Team" would be a start.
NOTE: Something small, but perhaps meaningful, you can do (as I did last night) -- write to your Senator (click "Senator" to get their address). It doesn't matter if you're particularly eloquent, just that they get a volume of mail on a particular issue. Here's my letter that I sent to Feinstein and Boxer:
In the words of of columnist Jonathan Turley, our troops in Iraq have a "Vietnam-era flak jacket that cannot stop the type of weapons used today." According to Turley, "parents across the country are now purchasers of body armor because of the failure of the military to supply soldiers with modern vests." This is sick. Our troops need our support -- rapidly, desperately -- so they aren't pigeons to be picked off in Iraq. Please petition the President and the Senate on this issue. --Amy Alkon
(Internet prayer chain article via Luke Ford, who got it from Heather MacDonald)
If you don't believe in god, why do you care if anyone else thinks about him/her? That's like condemning me for daydreaming about winning the lottery--it's not going to happen, but what does it hurt you for me to wish? I haven't quit my job and sat around clutching my ticket. It's not like society is paying a price for my daydream, nor is it paying a price for the prayers that are said daily. In fact, prayer has many physiological and psychological benefits to those of faith, so even if there is no god, the people who pray with faith at least improve their health and happiness, which definitely contributes to a better society.
I'm willing to bet that not everything you do is rational, no matter how 'Bright' you consider yourself to be. A certain amount of the human psyche will always be outside the realm of rational thought. Hope is not 'rational'--when everything's going wrong and there is no sign of change in sight, believing that it can turn around and get better is not 'rational', but I choose to hope anyhow.
It's also not fair to assume that people who pray don't take any other action besides prayer. I may pray, but that doesn't mean I don't take my medicine, or vote, or petition Congress, or anything else that contributes to being a productive member of society.
Our society as a whole is getting lazier and more self-centered, so that they can't be bothered to look around and see what's going on in their country and their world. That crosses all religious, economic and racial boundaries. Your previous post (Faith-less based initiative) said that if the Brights would rally together they might make a difference. Geez, does that mean THEY aren't petitioning Congress for body armor for our soldiers, either? I guess it's not a matter of faith or faithlessness, is it?
Peggy C at October 10, 2003 8:37 AM
Turley's just brought the issue to people's attention, so I don't think anybody's rallying to bring it to Congressional attention but Turley at the moment. And the problem with people believing in god -- for somebody who values life -- is the way it impacts the lives of the rest of us. How many people wouldn't be dead in the Middle East this week, if not for belief in god. How many more poor people would be served in health care and in other ways, if not for George Bush's push for faith-based care which has been proved to make non-believers not seek needed care? The list goes on. As far as my personal beliefs, you can assume that I go off on irrational tangents, but I try to look at every aspect of my life through the window of reason -- it makes a huge difference. Check out the work of Albert Ellis -- on my book links page -- which is based on the work of Epictetus, among others, who said, approximately: "It's not things that disturb us but the way we think of them." In other words, irrational thought.
Amy Alkon at October 10, 2003 9:06 AM
I didn't mean to imply that you are mostly irrational, but just that everyone is occasionally irrational, and that isn't limited to their religious beliefs. I have actually purchased and read some of the books you recommended by Ellis, and enjoyed them.
However, I also know that you put a lot of blame for people's misbehavior on their belief in a god. My personal opinion is that people misbehave because it suits them in some way, and they place the blame for their behavior on whatever source is convenient and results in the least culpability for them.
You often say that 'if everybody quit believing in god RIGHT NOW', this or that would happen. I disagree--using god as an excuse for misbehavior would stop, but hate will not disappear, stupidity will not disappear, there will simply be a different excuse given for why people are stupid or hate.
Peggy C at October 10, 2003 10:45 AM
Among those who proclaim a belief in God, some have done works of great good, others, acts of great harm. The same is true for those who do not believe in god. I think the real culprit is ego.
When the insatiable needs of the ego become all important, ego becomes the individual's God, regardless of what they might say, and everything is done in it's service.
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Amy, your repeated call for everyone to stop believing in God (or god) has begun to have the same feel to me as when people say I need to have Jesus in my heart. Not good.
joe g at October 10, 2003 10:58 AM
Peggy C, I didn't see your post when I made mine. Reading your last paragraph, it looks like we were making the pretty much the same point, but I think you did a better job.
joe g at October 10, 2003 11:26 AM
Well, for what it's worth, I have enjoyed my discussions with Amy and she has known for months that I'm a Christian. She has never -- directly or indirectly -- told me to stop believing. She respects my beliefs but does not share them.
Peggy, I agree with you completely regarding your statement that religion is often used to defend indefensible actions and convictions. You only have to look at the odious Fred Phelps of godhatesfags.com to see it. He calls for the death penalty for homosexuality, and insists that God's wrath will be poured out on America until we do start executing homosexuals. Lena, if it ever comes to that, I hope you and I get interred at the same concentration camp.
Patrick at October 10, 2003 5:01 PM
I love Amy, too! I've been reading her columns ever since the OC Register started syndicating her, and that's how I found her website.
I just think that the real problem isn't people of faith vs. 'faithless' people (Brights, Atheists, whatever name they prefer). The issue to me is thinkers vs. non-thinkers.
I'm not saying that 'non-thinkers' are stupid, or uneducated, or unable to learn. But a large percentage of people just don't want to think through an issue to it's roots or it's logical conclusions. And so they accept whatever they're spoon-fed by the people that lead their 'movement'. Whether that's religion, politics, activism, whatever--they jump on a bandwagon and ride it into the ground without having given any thought to where it's headed.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are led to their chosen 'movement' by the charisma of the leader, or a lack of their own sense of self leads them to link up to a cause that gives them a feeling of importance. It disturbs me that people don't question the motives behind leaders--not that all are out for blatantly 'evil' purposes, but I prefer to know what's in it for them before I get in it too.
Peggy C at October 10, 2003 8:40 PM
And Patrick--it makes me sick to hear of stupid things like godhatesfags.com--I don't even want to go to the website--I wouldn't want to inflate it's 'hit' numbers.
But, again, it comes down to stupidity. Anyone who can hate someone for something completely arbitrary is simply being stupid. So should we start a "God Hates Blondes" or "God Hates Tall People" movement? People recognize right off the bat that is ludicrous, so I don't understand why they can't make the next logical step and realize all of the prejudicial statements they cling to are really exactly the same. Of course, that requires thinking, and we don't teach people how to think for themselves anymore.
Peggy C at October 10, 2003 8:47 PM
"Atheists are such a bore--all the want to do is talk about God."
Joseph at October 10, 2003 10:19 PM
Joseph -- That's a great quote, but I think that this discussion string has been pretty interesting. I've enjoyed reading it and watching it unfold (unravel?)
Lena Cuisina at October 10, 2003 11:22 PM
I agree with those in this thread who are exploring the "methinks you doth protest too much" themes. At some point you have to ask which is more brittle, the 'brights" skepticism or the of the faith of the believer.
A person who works overtime to discount the faith of believers is ignoring some of the post potent feeling and intellection in human history. That said...
One of the top-five passages in English literature, by Birece:
"Be as decent as you can. Don't believe without evidence. Treat things divine with marked respect -- don't have anything to do with them. Do not trust humanity without collateral security; it will play you some scurvy trick. Remember that it hurts no one to be treated as an enemy entitled to respect until he shall prove himself a friend worthy of affection. Cultivate a taste for distasteful truths. And, finally, most important of all, endeavor to see things as they are, not as they ought to be."
See also Hitch, for this ad-hoc but splendid argument for atheism:
http://users.rcn.com/peterk.enteract/Daedalus.html
We finally see why he's been passing out those Marx quotes about religion for twenty years. Hint: It's about COMPASSION for the faithful, not smug condecension.
Crid at October 11, 2003 12:32 AM
A few questions for the practitioners of petitionary prayer:
--What is your theory of god? Is he a pollster moved by democratic opinion? If a worthy 85-year-old widow is dying of a painful cancer, what is the threshold number of prayers required to get god to do something to help her? Why does god need to be reminded of her plight? Without the prayers, would he say: Oh, she can just suffer? But then in come a thousand prayers. Now he changes his mind, and says: Oh, now I see, she's a valuable person after all? What if that worthy widow happens to be surrounded by a family of snarling atheist curs--is she just out of luck, bec. no one is praying for her?
Either prayers are superfluous, bec. god can evaluate the degree of human suffering and worthiness on his own in deciding whether to intervene in human life, or they are necessary to awaking god to important causes. If the latter is the case, that's pretty pathetic for a god.
If prayers matter, and lots of prayers matter even more, why don't the Yankees win every World Series and the NY Giants every Super Bowl, and why hasn't the Pope recovered from Parkinson's years ago?
heather at October 11, 2003 12:13 PM
My theory of god is that petitionary prayer is the request of a subject to his/her superior that may or not be granted. Just like I ask my boss for a time-off request--he may or may not grant it, and I am not the one in authority that gets to make the decision.
Is that too capricious? Maybe, but I'm not the boss of the world, and I've come to accept that fact. I have seen 'miraculous' answers to petitionary prayer, and I have seen the answer be 'no'. I have been beside those who have died, or who have lost someone they loved even when tons of prayers were made.
I don't believe the benefit of prayer is to prove that our 'god' is a puppet who can be manipulated by enough prayers--that would make him/her subject to our whims, and not a 'god' in any meaningful sense.
Did anyone see "Bruce Almighty"? I thought that movie showed the audience a valid explanation--not every answer can be 'yes', since one person's 'yes' may conflict with the requests of other people.
So what's the point of praying? It differs for each person praying and each person being prayed for. I believe that there are things in this world that are beyond our ability to reason and rationalize. I do not believe that everything that can be known is now known, and I am willing to place god into that category.
Just like a parent may say 'no' to a temporary good (cookies, perhaps?) when his/her child asks, because the parent knows there are consequences even to 'good' requests. I am willing to say that god could possibly know a reason why my petitionary prayer may come from a sincere heart, and yet not be the best option for the person I'm praying for.
And sometimes a parent may say 'yes' to one child's request and 'no' to another child making the same request, because the parent knows the temperament of each child and know that what benefits one is to the detriment of the other.
I've lost five people this year that I dearly loved, and for whom I prayed. And I also know people who have 'miraculously' recovered (according to their physicians, who are not 'believers'). I have not quit praying just because some of the answers are 'no', just like I don't quit asking for time off work just because I get told 'no' on occasion.
I consider love to be one of those things that cannot be rationally 'proven'. Most people would say they believe love exists (and not just 'eros', but also 'phileo' and even 'agape'). Personally, I'm not willing to put erotic love down to just a biochemical reaction, or mother-love down to an ancestral species survival instinct. Some people may do so, but I believe there is more to it than that, in a realm that is beyond what can be 'proven' empirically. And I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree.
Peggy C at October 11, 2003 2:49 PM
Heather -- I think some people pray because it helps them feel better. And I don't think that everyone who's sick prays for a cure. They might pray just for better acceptance of their condition. That seems okay to me. -- Lena
Lena Cuisina at October 11, 2003 2:51 PM
Regarding the 'Atheists are such a bore' quote, I always felt sorry for them because they have no one to talk to during sex.
Patrick at October 14, 2003 5:34 AM
Amy confesses to an embarrassing irony: I just wrote a card that's coming out for Valentine's Day, by Nobleworks. It's a vintage drawing of a sexy woman combing her hair -- with this talk bubble: "Do you know why god invented vibrators? So you'd scream his name more often." Naturally, they capitalized god, not me!
Amy Alkon at October 14, 2003 6:25 AM
To not talk about God, I'd like to point out that military body armor's main purpose is to stop fragments such as grenade or mine or artillery bits, not to stop rifle bullets.
Full-power rifle bullets are very difficult to stop, and ceramic plates required to do so add weight and impair mobility. There are reasons other than "not having money" that every soldier doesn't have ceramic plate armor. (Note that a large number of casualties, proportionally, are caused by bombs and rockets attacking vehicles, not small-arms fire.)
Sigivald at October 14, 2003 3:24 PM
And the Non-Sequitor of the Day Award goes to...
Lena Cuisina at October 14, 2003 7:19 PM
"How many people wouldn't be dead in the Middle East this week, if not for belief in god."
That's dangerous math. Pick a century, say, the 20th: A hundred million people died in secular war. How many fewer would have died if everyone had had some good ol' FAITH rattling in their skulls? As a practical matter, you'll never be able to prove whether more evil comes from the believers or the skeptical. And religious folks (Mother Theresa excepted) have probably built more hospitals than anyone. Took my aunt to a Catholic one last week. It was superb.
Cridland at October 18, 2003 10:34 AM
Hey Crid -- Hope your aunt's doing all right. She's lucky to have a nice nephew around to help out! Lena
Nurse Lena at October 19, 2003 6:36 AM
Ain'-no-thang. St Josephs in Denver does fabulous care. From the top surgeouns to the lowliest janitors, that place is one warm and powerful tool for mile-high healing. And it wouldn't have happened without the faith of Catholics. I'm a non-beliver myself, I'm just sayin'.
Crid at October 19, 2003 12:26 PM