Obviously sex isn't wrong. However, a few points. Teenagers emotionally mature? on what planet? Boys wanting to get their rocks off and girls bowing to peer pressure to snag a boy. But more importantly, I'm surprised at you Amy, for giving such bad information. you speak of protecting yourself. Wrong. I already knew(naturally) but I just did an internet search to confirm it. Failure rates for condoms are anywhere from 15% at worst to 5% at best. The reason not to have this terribly meaningful, artery busting amore(I'm holding the back of my hand to my forehead) is that you can contract HIV and AIds with these failures. No it is not easy blah blah blah, but it can be done.And of course it doesn't just apply to the teenies, it applies to everyone. Everytime you have sex(fluid exchnage) you have a 5 to 15% chance of having the condom not work. Yes if you're going to have sex anyway, you should obvioulsy wear them, but let's be honest about the reality. The percentages are rather small, but still there, everytime you have sex with anybody at any age. There is no such thing as safe sex, only safer sex.

i couldn't agree with chris more. i would bet to say that most teenagers weren't ready when they lost their virginity. they only thought they were. so a good reason to abstain is because it can't hurt you to not have sex. you say not to say because the Bible says so, well it says it for a reason. having sex too young doesn't do anything good for the person emotionally. so what's so wrong with waiting until you actually know what love is, or (gasp, shock, horror) until you're married? it's the only 100% way to not get an STD or get pregnant from some guy that you may never see again or who is way too young to be a parent. and do you see the correlation between teaching kids that it's okay to have sex and teen pregnancy. yeah, i'm sure you'll have some answer for that, but you'll never convince me that they're not related. people give kids way to much credit saying that they can decide for themselves. isn't that what parents are for, no, not to tell them what to think, but to guide them? there is something seriously wrong with society when you can get condoms, birth control, and find out how to get an abortion without your parents knowing, but you can't get an advil at school. ummm, that's pretty screwed up!

Pish posh. My best memories of my teen years involved girls in the back seats of cars and making out before curfew. I am still in touch (via classmates.com) with several of the girls I hooked up with 20+ years ago- it is a great bond knowing someone intimately that far back. Also, there wasn't all the emotional baggage that accompanies "hooking up" in your 30's and 40's. What is the point of being alive if you can't experiment?

I have gone through a few hundred condoms (I know, too much information) and have yet to have 1 break or fail. Used properly, it just doesn't happen. Educate teens on the proper usage and storage of condoms and that will eradicate most of the problem.

Teens today, as they have always been, are bombarded with the anxieties of their parents/teachers. On the other hand, the media is also responsible for showing unrealistic portayals of "girls gone wild" garbage. Behind all the hype, I think the world of Bob Segers "Night Moves" is alive and well.

yeah, well i have friends who regret it. so maybe their not being honest with you or themselves. and you never know when one will break or not work. all i know is that despite the current "education" there are more people with diseases and more 14 year olds with kids, so maybe they're doing something wrong. because this can't be the outcome they want.
i wasn't taught sex-ed and i know all about condoms and birth control and how NOT to have sex. why not teach girls self respect so they will know that they don't have to sleep with or fool around with a guy just because he wants to or its "cool". i wasn't made fun of at school for being a virgin, and most people now say that they wish they were too. so maybe you need to ask your past girlfriends to be more honest with you. also, because you're a guy you may not know this, but it is possible to get close to someone and share a bond with someone without the physical. i was very close with all my boyfriends and we never slept together. you get closer my talking and finding out about the person.
oh, and i feel very much alive and am living life to the fullest, and i was in high school too, without fooling around with different people.

oh my how wrong you are
like most fools you live in your fools paradise
how do you know no condom has failed you. there is leakage that you may not be aware of. it's actaully useful testimony that you give. you're just like the smoker who thinks smoking is eitther safe or in any event it wont touch him. you live in denial because it eases the burden of facing reality. you say you've never broken one? not surprising, with 3 inches of toothpick it would be hard to. however when it comes to mighty men such as myself-all i can tell you is heed the warnings-5-15% failure rate every time. Oh heavens, is there no sanity left on this planet?

Chris- I do not, nor have ever smoked after watching my Dad die of cancer. My toothpick is well over 3 inches, and that you would even bring something like that to this discusion pretty much tells me you are the immature type who suffers from penis envy, and not worthy of responding to. I do live in Paradise, which is to say Idaho. I never got a disease or gave one either.

Lauren- good for you and all the power to you. You have a choice and you made it. Nobody I know or associate with woth make fun of anyone simply because they were a virgin. And your friends who regret their past may have made bad decision, but those are their crosses to bear. I completely agree with you that many people make mistakes to be one of the crowd or cool.

I am still in touch with every woman I have been involved with, and in most cases it was they that were the aggressor. My point is simply that whether it is cuddling or intercourse, it should be an individuals choice without guilt.

Most of the STD's today are passed on through unprotected sex- that fact in undisputed. Check out the CDC website. Proper education is always the key- SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION, not moral dogma.

One other point from this late 30'ish man: most of the teenagers I know are now being raised by single women who have a bitter take on life. Simply an observation.

Mosts stats I've seen state that *when used properly*, condoms have upwards of a 95% effectiveness. The stats like 15% tend to be based on people not using them properly, probably as a result of not having had proper sex ed.

All birth control statistics have two factors: the 'ideal usage' statistic and the 'actual usage' statistic. Sounds to me like Chris and Eric are talking about the two different stats. Eric is the ideal user, and Chris quotes the realistic statistics.

Even with proper sex ed, people drink, smoke pot, etc., or are just plain nervous and don't always bring their full awareness to the act, so you can't count on ideal usage for any birth control. That doesn't excuse lying about the scientific data, though.

Peggy-of course you are right I only deal in reality-which leaves one very very lonely.
Eric you say I'm not worth responding to but you had already responded. I responded to what you said simply because it is patent garbage and downright dangerous. To give the impression that sex is safe is absolutely wrong. It can only be made safer. In Idaho the rates of infection are probably much much lower. But here in L.A., look out. By the way, I'm not against sex, blow your DNA all over Idaho,(perhaps you could provide umbrellas to the residents) just don't delude yourself that it's safe. You're taking a measured risk, every single time.

I just want to pipe in that the "5 to 15% chance of having the condom not working" -- if that's true -- doesn't represent the risk of getting something like HIV, because the probability of 2 events happening at the same time is the product of the 2 events happening separately (See "An introduction to probability and inductive logic" by Ian Hacking). So, if 1 in 1000 men has HIV disease (which is NOT true, kids), then the probability of contracting it through any given act of fucking is 1 in 500,000 (ie, 0.05 X 0.001).

My point? Go out and get pounded, really hard and really deep. Osama will probably get you before HIV does.

Your STD-free sista in slutdom,
Lena

A very interesting and thorny discussion. Similar issues could be raised about any number of risky and potentially harmful things that teens will eventually try at some point in their lives, such as alcohol.

Thing is, life is full of risks. We take calculated risks every day, and few things we do are 100% guaranteed safe. Some of these things are mostly unavoidable, such as driving a car (especially in a country with such poor public transport -- but that's another discussion). However, when teens take driver's ed, they are taught how to drive safely, since it is assumed that they'll be driving regularly one day, despite the fact that there is a small but significant risk that they could be seriously injured or killed. We don't tell them not to drive because it's a risky activity -- instead, we discuss the risks and teach them how to proceed as safely as possible. Using seat belts, for instance, even though we know that seat belts are not a guarantee against injury or even death.

I know the analogy is hardly perfect -- sex has a far more deep and complex role in our culture than driving does (and I certainly hope it stays that way) -- but still, why not equip kids with all the information they need to make informed choices?

A bit of an aside: we all know that the majority of people under 18 are going to experiment sexually in some way or other. I personally think this is a natural and healthy thing, but then I like sex quite a lot. When I was in high school, I avoided STDs/unwanted pregnancies by doing things other than intercourse. Our culture doesn't see these "alternative" acts as being as satisfying or meaningful as intercourse, and that's too bad. As a teenager, I got a start on learning how to navigate the treacherous waters of sex and "relationships" and such without risking so much -- getting my feet wet, as it were, without diving into the deep end.

Just a wacky thought.

Lena Purina raises some good points but i don't agree with his conclusion.
The reality is condoms fail from 5 to 15% of the time. However, this simply means that fluids are passed. Just because the fluid is passed does not mean you will get HIV, even if the person has it.
Some studies I've seen show that it takes about 235 exposures to the virus before it is passed. It is, in fact, hard to catch. So you might have unprotected sex with someone 200 times and still not get it. The problem is, with all of these surveys and polls and studies that they are also subject to error, and bias. The number could be more it could be less, we don't know. I have little faith in studies and polls. In any event, Lena Purina, get pounded and get pounded savagely, walk Santa Monica boulevard and provide that blessed beautiful amore(men blowing their nuts on the roof of their car) that we only read about in storybooks. simply be aware that there is a risk, throw it to the ground and stomp on it if you want, but still, there is that risk

"I have little faith in studies and polls."

Unless they're outright liars, people who conduct studies and polls aren't asking for your faith. They expect you to evaluate their work and criticize it in detail if necessary.

"Lena Purina, get pounded and get pounded savagely, walk Santa Monica boulevard"

The sad truth is that Lena spent most of her 20s attending memorial services for friends who had died of AIDS, and most of her 30s in graduate school. She is now staring down the barrel of 42. No one would take her seriously if she even tried to work her skirt on S.M. boulvard. Sad but true.

"Teenagers emotionally mature? on what planet? Boys wanting to get their rocks off and girls bowing to peer pressure to snag a boy."

What's wrong with this? Well, except for the fact that our culture says it's tragic and horrible. I just got back from France, where some things (socialism, bureacracy suffusing everything) are really dumb -- but where the approach to sexuality is so much healthier. This sad puritanism above is ridiculous. What's the big deal about sex?

Oh, Lauren...the bible says you should stone adulterers. Find your intellectual independence (hint: using reason instead of gulping down everything you're told, sans a shred of proof) then tell us "the way."

Life is short. Have a lot of sex. Having it while having self-respect is key. You can have self-respect as a teenager. Have it naked, have it clothed.

Lena
polls are flawed and the poll makers and commissioners do want you to believe them(faith)
Now Amy, the Brie seems to have gone to your brain. Me, puritanism? Are you on drugs.
What's wrong with this, you ask. Nothing wrong as far as morals go, but as a health issue, plenty. There is a risk for HIV, so it's a safety issue. As previously stated people are going to continue to have sex, as do I, just don't delude yourself that it is safe, it is not. There is a risk involved.
who cares about self-respect? no one. the vast majority of people on this planet don't have any self respect. That criteria is hopelessly utopian

i don't need proof, hence having FAITH. that's much harder to do than just believing everything you read in an "intellectual" book. maybe you should decide for yourself instead of agreeing with everything that is "intellectual". and no, i don't "gulp down everything i'm told". just because i don't believe the way you do doesn't mean that i am not smart and don't think for myself, but a hypocrite like you wouldn't understand that. and no wonder you don't like the Bible, you don't understand it, or you just don't really read it. Jesus stop them from stoning her and said that if anyone is perfect, let them cast the first stone. so please, read John 8 and think next time before you write and proclaim "the truth". and now i'm done. so bash on... again i won't read it.

Life is short, have a lot of sex.
Especially for the million or so here in the US with HIV/Aids. Especially for Lena Purina's friends that are already in the ground. 20 30 million in Africa, a pandemic rages throughout the world. From a health standpoint, really crappy, pollyannish, numb-brained advice.

Lauren, you so fundamentally don't get it, it's painful to explain. I don't belong to some brainwashing society that tells me to think instead of blindly accepting ideas. You call this faith. I call it idiotic. A man in a black robe says, "A guy a bunch of years ago said you should do this," and you say "Okay!" This is, plainly put, a sign of being stupid and naive. Having faith is hard if you're smart and rational -- because it's irrational and stupid to believe in that which you have no proof for. But whether it's "easy" or "difficult" isn't the issue. You're primitive in your approach to the world. And of course you won't read what I wrote - it challenges your approach to existence, which is, to put it more politely, "tenderheaded." You believe in god because you believe in god. Therefore, you are an idiot.

Chris, I've managed to live 40 slutty years, and I've also managed to protect myself. Quite frankly, I'm not really in a risk group. I'm probably more in danger of dying while crossing the street while reading than I am of dying from sex.

Chris -- How about sex with condoms a couple of times a month, after some open conversation about sexual history and not too much alcohol?

Lauren -- Try being a little more curious about things. Sex can be fun and interesting sometimes. I don't think it's really supposed to be all that special. It's just something that people do. Why do you think God created orgasms? Go forth and have one (or more).

Now we come to the crossing the street story.
That's what everybody says about everything, tobacco, drugs, booze. it becomes the logic behind all kinds of risky behavior. That all of life is a risk, I don't think is in doubt or the point.
Just briefly-a married housewife isnt in a high risk group right? But then her hubby stops off for a little bi-excersion with Lena Purina-then he visits street prostitutes the next night on his way home-suddenly this low risk housewife is in the high risk category-you can never really know. Everybody that wants to should have sex- they should just be aware that there are risks involved and not try to minimize the threat with faulty logic or arguments. As someone wrote somewhere recently, it's like when Mr. Spock would respond to Captain Kirk. "Yes Captain, but still it is so."

Maybe from now on when you have sex you should wear latex gloves AND a condom- that will double your protection.

Those latex gloves could make nice earrings.

Or props in a kinky medical examiner role-play fantasy.

Or props in a kinky medical examiner role-play fantasy.

Why thank you Eric-you seem like a good guy actually.
But I'm already using a full body raincoat double gloves(not latex, welders gloves) and helmet with face guard.

And Lauren-YOU GO GIRL-keep fighting your
evil, older(much much older) step-sisters Amy Al-Keida and Lena pounded by weena.
And who would I cast as the charming prince in my little passion play? Modesty prevents me from saying any more.

No hard feelings, ya big lug. Just wipe off the face guard now and then.

Amy,

I believe in god because 1-there's no way to prove whether he/she does or does not exist, and 2-I think the universe works too damn well to be an accident, and it is more reasonable to me to think that there's some intelligence behind it. I've researched different faith options and have settled on the one that answers most of the questions in the most reasonable manner consistent with the world as I know it.

I want to make sure that I'm not being lumped into the 'idiot' category right off the bat. Not all people with a personal faith refuse to use their brains as well.

No, Peggy -- while I don't think your notion makes sense, you did arrive at it through reasoning (flawed, I do think), and I respect that you didn't just suck down what you were given. It's those who hold beliefs merely because they were handed them that frustrate me. What a waste of a human mind.

Sex is risky. Faith is risky. Driving is risky. I find it interesting that we don't have a problem shuttling our children off to drivers-ed which, I'm guessing, hurts/kills more kids per year than sex. Would you rather have a dead kid or a pregnant kid? Yet it is fundamental to our standard of living and economy. It is accepted that one will grow up and drive a car. Why isn't it accepted that kid's growing up are going to be interested in, experiment with, and maybe enjoy some sex. Sex and hunger are the two most driving physiological forces of our bodies -- I'm stating that as fact though I am making no actual empirical reference. So why would it make sense to anyone to abstain from providing kids, who are generally smart, with safety information about condoms? Sin or no sin, God or no God, good idea or bad, people make choices and people have sex, they learn and move on, though not always pleasantly. Every trip in a car does not end well.

Abstinence-only. Another pretense at perfection from an administration that doesn't care about facts: what people actually do in the real world.

After laying in bed and thinking about what I wrote last night I though I should add something. With my statement "Every trip in a car does not end well" I implied that shit happens, life gets complicated, and sometimes people get hurt. Afterwards I thought I should add this: Every trip in a car does not end in disaster.
Condoms are like a seat belt, I guess. It isn't necessarily put into action, but it's good to have it there.

Very well-put, A.Ho. My sentiments, too. I'm not going to stop driving because it's dangerous, but I'm not going to go blithely zipping down the freeways in the pouring rain, either.

I think kids should be taught about sex and about all the ways of reducing their risks. I am still hesitant to wholeheartedly endorse kids having sex, though. There are emotions involved, and teens are in a highly volatile state of emotional sensitivity, and they are much more likely to be devastated by a relationship's fallout than a slightly-more-mature adult.

Just like with the car analogy--you can talk to your kid and give them the driver's training course, and make them wear their seat belts when they're with you. But once they're out of your sight, they do what they want. And kids think they are invincible--"It won't happen to me." I don't know anyone who didn't have at least one kid in their high school die while driving drunk. And these are the same kids that we think are going to wear condoms? Please!

Ultimately, parents need to do the hard work of teaching their kids the facts, arming them with the equipment, and being there for them when the shit hits the fan. Unfortunately, there aren't many parents willing to do that, religious or not. Their parents didn't do it for them, and they have no clue how to do it for their own kids.

I was fortunate--my mom always told me she would prefer that I wait until I was older and more discerning, but that when I was ready she wanted me to have all necessary 'equipment'. The fact that she gave me a choice made it much easier to choose to wait till I was older and more emotionally stable.

A.Ho, thank you for you comment! And Chris, unless you are a physician might I suggest you STFU and get a clue. I watch these kids come into the clinic, ER and hospital (especially the OB floor) at very tender ages. Yes, condoms do have an actual failure rate of 12%, theoretical failure rate of 2% (Callahan, OB/Gyn, 2nd ed.) but what you should keep in mind is that it has a success rate of 88-98%. What would you suggest, Chris? We dispense with condoms and sex education because there is a small, but significant, failure rate? Let met let you in on a little secret: Fact: kids are going to have sex regardless of what they are told about good/evil, waiting until marriage, etc. etc. etc. I believe I am backed up not only by current statistics but historical reality: people have been having sex for quite some time and they have not necessarily been waiting for ëtrue loveí first. Your alternative: tell them to wait and hope for the best? The failure rate of ignorance is quite a bit higher than that of condoms. From my prospective (i.e. reality, ëthe trenchesí) it is much better to have educated teens that can, hopefully, try to prevent pregnancy than one who is uninformed or simply told ëto waití. Come on folks, lets put aside your ideas of personal morality and focus on the big picture.

To Dr. Jensen M.D.
Let me cover a few points
You say unless I'm an M.D....
Fuck off you pompous asshole
anybody can read an abstract
you would have us presume that only a doctor can understand this terribly complicated material? How often I encounter this silly pomposity from doctors
You then like all the other idiots I encounter misquote and fabricate what I said. When do I say dispense of condoms.I don't say that. gee if you're a doctor you should be able to understand the written word.
Not that anybody reads what anybody actually says but once again doc, try to comprehend this...
I think people should have all the sex they want. But they should make informed decisions. Full disclosure. So in telling them their sex lives are obviously up to them, you also tell the person that there is a risk of contracting HIV whether protected or not. Then the person can make their own decision based on all the evidence. Full disclosure. No this idiotic, lousy advice of Amys. For people in high risk groups especially, this should be part of the info they get. And by the way, your opinion on this subject is no better or worse than anybody else on this board. This is not triple bypass surgery. Anybody can familiarize themselves with this material. Because you're a doctor that gives you more weight on this matter? Bullshit Dr. Pompous Ass.

One more thing Dr. Pompous.
I don't know what your specialty is, but if someone were to ask you about condoms and safe sex and you didn't disclose the fact that condoms are not fool-proof and people could contract HIV anyway,(the thrust of my commentary) then you're not only a pompous ass, but a lousy doctor as well. Always give the people all the facts and let them decide for themselves.

Don't make me turn this car around.

And another thing Dr. Asshole
And everybody on this board should read this

You say if you're not a medical doctor then
shut the fuck up... you have the audacity to say that to me?
These asshole doctors are just like the priesthood folks. We are golden..we are gods on earth so shut the fuck up and worship us. What nauseating garbage.
Folks, question everything, all the time, never be intimidated by these asshole priests or doctors into shutting the fuck up. Open your mouths, they are not gods, just pompous little assholes, emperors with no clothes.
And Amy, love ya but truly disappointed. This is the "authority figure" you call in to make your point? for shame. Ya see this is one of the big troubles with people. they are awed and swayed by so-called authority figures and don't think for themselves. This isn't complicated goddess, what do you think? Form your own opinions Amy. Don't rely on the pompous ass opinions of so-called authorities.
So there you have it folks. Will you shut the fuck up before your doctors and priests and analysts and assume them to be gods on earth, or will you speak up, question everything and form your own opinions on matters? The choice is yours.

Full disclosure, Chris, is exactly what Dr. Jensen gave you, and suggests giving kids. Kids WILL have sex, and they're best off when presented with the condoms and the stats on how they protect. The angry outbursts and attacks don't help persuade people to your cause. And you seem to have a bone to pick with some doctors -- but ALL doctors aren't arrogant jerks. Nor are they the same as priests -- because they tend to back up what they're saying with scientific data, not mumbo jumbo. Moreover, I didn't "call in" Doctor Jensen. I don't even know the guy. Like you, he wandered in here all by his lonesome. In a word (two, actually), grow up.

no all doctors aren't arrogant jerks, but many are. Most priests are by their very nature. info
on condoms and how they protect and don't protect.
You may view them as angry outbursts, I view them as speaking the truth to idiocy with passion.

And let me ask you this, when I click on Dr. Jensen's email address nothing comes up. Why is that? Everybody else on this site has valid email addresses, but not doctor jensen. Amy has one, I do, LYT does, so does Lena, but not doctor jensen. Why? Is the doc a phony, maybe leena pounded by weena in disguise, or perhaps doc jensen is real. Which means you afforded him the courtesy of not using his email address unlike all the rest of us common folk here. so what is it Amy? a fictitious person or a real doctor you extended priviledge to. Inquiring minds want to know.

There's no Big Sister-like rule here that people need to be identifiable and reachable. Perhaps Dr. Jensen wished to avoid receiving angry, expletive-filled e-mail from you? Just a thought. I erase spam advertising porn sites, but that's all the comments intervention I do, for the most part. And forgive me for the overshare, but I have had A LOT of sex, and I have never had a condom break. Never.

So says you
it's interesting every other person on here that I just checked had valid emails
Also I remember when i endeavored to register for this site, I put in my info without an email and I was refused access. Only when I entered my email did I gain access. Your credibilty is circling the drain Ms. AL-Keida. Care to try again, and remember you're under oath. It says right on your thingee "NAME and EMAIL ADDRESS ARE REQUIRED. Circle circle circle.

you've been caught in an obvious lie and now have neither the guts or the class to admit it.
Amy, Amy Amy dear you're very bright, but never try to match wits with me. No one can. Nobody.

Chris, it's comments like the one above that lead me to wonder if you're a weekend crack user. I'm not sure how you've managed to read "my thingee" -- according to Lena (who borrowed it from Lorrie Moore), the note tattooed on my inner thigh says "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here." This blog is Moveable Type -- precoded to work a certain way -- and I did not put in any "rules." The technology may require you to put in AN email address -- but you're more than welcome to put in an invalid one. Heather MacDonald, of The Manhattan Institute, asked me, some time ago, if she could post under those circumstances, and I told her "sure." She didn't want to put her valid email address in, lest nutbags would contact deluge her with nutbag email. Nutbags? Hmm, who might that be? Again, Chris -- nobody's checking e-mail at the door. According to my cursory observations, only in passing, plenty of people post here with fake email addresses. Only if they libel somebody or are extreeeeeeemely rude in a way I find terribly offensive (and I am terribly hard to offend) might their post be removed. Or if it looks suspiciously like advertising (blog comments spam merely to up their linkshare). Chris, even Socrates wasn't Socrates -- and said so. A bit of unsolicited advice: If you want people to know how tectonic plate-shiftingly genius you are, it's best that you let them figure it out all by themselves.

People that call you on the truth are nutbags in your eyes. I'll gladly be that. And as your advice lately has been about as brilliant as an autistic monkey, I believe I'll pass on it.
And as the joke goes-I do apologize to all the autistic monkies I've just so egregiously offended.

Stop it, you two. STOP IT NOW!

My, my, my, I seemed to have touched a nerve. I believe, in those terribly technical medical terms, a 4+ reflex. Regardless, let me address your concerns. First, I am a resident (out of school but still in training) in general medicine. In other words, I get to see it all. Second, while you may not say in so many words we should dispense with condoms, when you argue how ineffective they are, almost to the level of worthlessness as you portray them, there is little doubt as to what you think of them. Again, while I freely agree they are not perfect, they are a far cry better than nothing. And I do give full disclosure (regardless if it be the risks/benefits of a surgery, medication or birth control). Moreover, I do claim the right to speak with authority on this matter because of my personal, real world experience of dealing with it daily. In short, I offer my experience and opinion of what I know. Third, I intentionally did not include my e-mail address because of what I knew would happen: a frothing-at-the-mouth response common to people like yourself. Might I suggest a rabies immunoglobulin shot? Indeed, especially now I have no intention of supplying you with my e-mail. Fourth, Chris, keep in mind doctors and dentists are the only people who try to put themselves out of business. I donít think I am some mystical authority-type person. I am here to reduce, palliate and eliminate disease and disability. People like yourself who give blatantly biased and moralistically motivated misinformation do real-world damage to the people I care for (both medically and personally). And yes, I admit I use my big, scary M.D. degree to add my authority of experience to the argument. Just like a policeman, fireman or educator will add his or her credentials to give the weight of personal knowledge to the things they argue. Finally, why do I tell people like you to STFU? Because you add nothing to these arguments but moralizing, misinformation and malice. Your rapid responses demonstrate this. People like you, with your raving and moralizing, do nothing to help and everything to hurt those I care for. So Chris, please STFU.

Dr. Asshole
whoever or whatever you are
you're still an idiotic asshole.
if you were able to read english you would see that there is no moralizing in my statemnets what-so-ever. Just an appeal for medical information. As an atheist I have absolutely no moral qualms about people having sex at all. I do want them to be informed medically however. if you are actually a doctor, Dr. Asshole it means absolutely nothing other that the fact that a lot of people will no doubt be receiving horrific medical care. My responses weren't said out of anger, simply of truth.
You don't leave your email as you are either a ringer(and I have a pretty good idea from where-ena) or you are to much of a gutless coward to post your email. In either event i really have no reason to be concerned any further-many sites refuse to respond to either fictitious people or cowards who won't post their emails.
And Lena-what was it you said you studied during your thirties? Inquiring minds do want to know.

Well well well
This is doctor A. Einstein here. Albert's grandson.
Dean of the Harvard Medical School.
I have read all this fal-de-ra. I'm shocked
Mr. Volkay is absolutley right and Amy and Lena should be ashamed of themselves. I must now go back to my duties.

(by the way, I tried putting in a phony email address and the blog rejected it, as previously stated. It only works with VALID email addresses. I repeat that VALID email adresses. Liar liar pants on fire.

The fake email address works, darling. I just put in fakey@fakeyfakey.com (click above).

Perhaps your great geniusness was off duty when you made the attempt?

Oops - I guess it goes straight to my URL if you click the email address -- because the URL was included. You'll have to trust me that I made one up and included it.

It's apparent to me by the intelligence (or lack thereof) of the comments who a person is (or isn't). I'll ask you, Chris, to refrain from using rude language to refer to people who post here. It's my blog, and I really don't want that to be the level of discussion. Nor do I want to become The Blog Nanny, deleting posts. I thought Dr. Jensen brought up good points.

Moreover, according to what he wrote -- "I donít think I am some mystical authority-type person. I am here to reduce, palliate and eliminate disease and disability" -- he's exactly the kind of doctor I would want.

I'm always surprised when people knock doctors or lawyers or others simply because there are some bad apples in these professions. (In what profession aren't there bad apples?) The key is finding doctors and lawyers who are passionate about. expert at, and excited by what they do. Knocking anyone and everyone in the profession is unwarranted and childish, and knocking Dr. Jensen in the way you did is rude and uncivilized. Sure, disagree with somebody -- but their arguments, not their existence. I'm unlikely to respond further to further ridiculousness from you on this issue, or any issue, unless you find your adult self and put it into service. And if you think this blog isn't meeting your needs for violently rude discusssion, and kowtowing to your self-proclaimed greatness, feel free to avoid it in the future.

OOPs it goes back to my URL, darling so you obviously were wrong. when I do it doesnt work. So, no dont trust you darling you're a liar.
anybody outside your computer can't post without a valid email. darling

I don't believe that Dr. Jensen is real, he she it is a ringer. but even if they were real I would refer to he she it as an asshole. as that is what they are. I will say what i want to whoever I want anytime I want, and always do i might add.

but then you really made my evening. inviting me to avoid your site in the future. When you are caught in a lie about the email, and can't come up with a good answer, when you are bested on the arguments you invite me to leave. What gutlessness, what cowardice. If you can't win the argument take your little ball and go home.

as to childishness, I'll have you know that there are currently 56 comments on this topic, so apparently there is plenty of childishness present. That you won't respond to my emails anymore. Whahahahahahahahah(I'm wailing here) whahahahahahahah(Oh no Amy no pleeease, I beg you)
Wahahahahahah....

Oh and doc Jensen whoever you are..continue to fuck off.

Here's one without my real email address. And Heather MacDonald, who happens to be a truly brilliant woman, managed to post here sans real email address. Moreover, it really isn't important to me that people are reachable here -- and the need to put in an email address is simply a function of the blog software I use -- Moveable Type -- which is the software in use on many, if not most blogs. I see no reason to put my boyfriend to work rewriting the code on the comments section simply to please the rude and puerile.

lets make it clear
doc jensen has no email
you cant post without a valid email
who is doc jensen darling? and how does he make his phantom posts? i cant post without a valid email Hmm?

PS Click on my name in red on the comment above, and you'll note that it's completely easy to put in a fake e-mail address -- as I did. If I designed the software myself, I would have designed it accordingly, as I feel people have a right to privacy, and I'm also a big fan of free speech -- even free speech for the rude and undercivilized. The tenderheaded do tend to exasperate me a little quicker, I must admit.

Moreover, I generally don't lie, except to preserve somebody's feelings. Part of trying to live a rational life is living truthfully -- including telling the truth. Even if I were a liar, I certainly wouldn't bother lying about something I couldn't care less about, such as the technical requirements for posting on my blog.

Clearly, Doc Jensen put in a fake URL. Entirely acceptable to me. You're free to do the same. Of course, we'll all know it's you, by the degenerated level of civility -- so, why bother?

you miss the point again
when i, outside of your system put in a fake email, i cant post to the blog. the blog stops me and says enter valid email. the point is, you cannot post without a valid email. fakes stop you from posting. And yet the doc has managed to. something is fishy darling

I put in a fake e-mail address, as have many people. It works. It's not about being "in my system" or out. I don't post comments from within my MT blog -- I post them to the blog page same as you do. I'm doing it again here -- the e-mail address I've listed above is fakeaddress@fakeaddress.com. Clearly, the system only discriminates against the great self-proclaimed geniuses of the world.

Click my name in the post above, and you'll see. You can post here as BozoTheClown at UpYours@UpYours.com for all I care. You're flailing about in regard to something nobody cares about - least of all, me.

Amy, I apologize for causing such a stir; however, I do feel it necessary to respond to Chris and his ilk when they spew forth their vindictiveness and lies. Regardless, I guess Chris will assume I am but a figment of the vast left-wing conspiracy directed personally against him. I am sure if I supplied some e-mail address he would then go on to demand which school I graduated from, where I currently work, the number thereof, a copy of my CV, etc. I will give no such satisfaction. Really, Chris, if having an e-mail address available to spam is the only criteria for legitimacy you require then you truly have quite a low threshold of acceptance. BTW, if your e-mail address is ëxí@íyí.com it is permissible. For example, the one I input was ënone@none.comí. Please try it before venting any more spleen upon your poor keyboard. Might I suggest ëtake_a_pill@once.comí. No, really.

Again, we see how those of his kind respond to a practical/scientific argument (for further example please see Bush & Co.ís response to global warming, pollution and Mad Cow Disease). Moreover, it epitomizes the ad hominem attacks this administration is famous for (please see the current fiasco with Clarke). Indeed, a criticism for anything but the issue at hand.

Nonetheless, I would be inclined to respond more directly to you Chris but you are indeed your own worst enemy and make any comment regarding your ignorance redundant.

Have a good evening folks

Dr. Jensen,
I don't mind at all. I, too, feel compelled to speak up when I see vindictiveness and lies -- which is why I kept posting here when I'm on deadline. I appreciate your previous posts, as well as this one. All the best, -Amy

Hmmm...who's pompous now?

"Amy, Amy Amy dear you're very bright, but never try to match wits with me. No one can. Nobody."

Chris, you are a born entertainer. Take this sentence for instance:

"Most priests are by their very nature."

Thanks for the info. It turns out that I also am.

Please enjoy the URL that my moniker in red links you to.

Maybe it's only you who can't post with a fake email.

Dr. Asshole
as i've already said if you won't leave your email it means either that you are a fictitious person(someone on this board) or you are a coward-and the fact is i can't post to your blog with a fake email. As to vindictiveness and lies Amy you are the pot calling the kettle black. It never occurs to well meaning but simple-minded Amy that doc jensen is just a phony doc concocted by one of the board members. but she is to swayed by her obvious awe and of authority figures. sad really. you never develop the ability tho think for yourself when you fall in lock step with what the so-called authority figures tell you. you just become a puppet mouthing the ideas and thoughts that you have absorbed from others. A word typing automoton without ever developing an original thought or idea on your own. have you ever had any original thoughts or ideas of your own Amy?
An advice columnist on relationships. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

aS TO A.Ho yes I am a born entertainer, thank you for noticing. As I bravely keep coming back to this board to face Darling Amy and her flying squadron of monkies, all cackling in unison, it becomes a drain on one's sensibilities.
Therefore, for my services, I do feel it only fair that the cackling monkey squadron and Amy herself all pony up a monthly fee for my services. A sort of retainer. Everybody ponies up say 10 or 2o bucks. Come on Lena queena of weena, where's your dough, Eric come on, all chip in and keep me on this board. Otherwise the pain of dealing with such, well, silliness just may drive me from this board. And then what would you have?
A bunch of automotons mouthing PC nonsense to each other. the choice is yours-choose wisely

Thank you, but I already fund people who behave most stupidly -- with my taxes.

Regarding Dr. Jensen, he spoke from his experience, which isn't the same as speaking from pomposity. You, Chris, appear to have some insecurity about people in positions of authority. I question authority, but when it seems worthy of questioning. A doctor speaking, in his opinion, from his experience, seems worth listening to. I'm sure it's not a whole lot of ego boost to post pretty much anonymously (maybe he's actually Dr. Smith) to a blog that gets only about 1,000 visitors a day. He was clearly just trying to contribute to the discussion on the issue -- to further the discussion. Would that you had the civility and intellect to do the same -- instead of firing off angry little darts like an insulted seventh-grader. Moreover, as A.Ho noted, you appear to be the lone person here who cannot post under and assumed e-mail address. And really, after this barrage of incivility you've left here, can anybody really be blamed for not wanting the likes of you to have their e-mail address? The fact that you persist here, with rude remarks, and constant "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyahs," when you could have contested the substance of Dr. Jensen's (or anyone else's) remarks says everything about you. Calling me "a word typing automaton" without original ideas is silly. What I write in my column is completely contrary to mainstream thought (which is why I'm frequently fired from papers after the little old ladies complain). For example, I don't believe in marriage, don't believe people should live together, think it's moral for a man to hire an escort for sex rather than fooling women into thinking he's up for commitment when he's not, and I'm against "marriage privileging" -- granting rights to people simply because they're married. Feel free to contest my IDEAS anytime -- which is how you have what's become recently rare in this forum, thanks to your immature diatribes: intelligent debate. Really, I'm tired of the name-calling from you, at me and at other guests (yes guests -- you are a guest in my forum, and might act accordingly); name-calling which serves no purpose but to make you look like an ass.

Actually, I'm a little concerned about Chris. He doesn't sound well at all... like he's been tweaking on meth with no sleep for days.

Amy,

He actually called you an 'automoton', and I think he meant it. Being that the letters 'o' and 'a' are quite some space from each other I don't think it was a typo. Once I figure out what an automoton is, I will surely join the ranks.

Minion Alert-minion Alert-
i'm back get the friends and neighbors

a few things
as to the fictional dr. asshole as he is fictional no more need be said

on many other blogs and boards people make up two or three different personalities all the time- that you are unaware of this doesnt surprise- you dont care who is posting you say-its your blog and you can do as you wish-but other blogs and boards ive been on insist on real emails from real people- that you dont is simply unprofeesional and sloppy.

A few other points of interest for any of the readers that don't fall under the category of amy's monkies.
In the beginning of this entire thread-go back and see who initiates the profanity. it's dr. fictional asshole. he is the one that uses the STFU. Which means shut the fuck up-
not that it matters-but i simply say for anybody that can reason out there-
so dr. fictional starts the profanity- i then respond in kind- personally i never initiate the profanity-but once it is raised by someone else-then i do return it in kind.
But simple-slow-witted amy comes in on the side of Dr. Fictional. Doc fic starts it-the poor dear should have jumped in to defend me-but she jumps in to defend the person who starts the profanity-simply a dumb ass.
And another question, what dr. do ou know needs defending? Huh. But there is simple minded Amy jumping in to defend the instigator. Not very bright. AMy were you on the O.J. jury?
The line of logic and reason here is scary.
To Lena-no as a matter of fact i dont use drugs, alcohol, tobacco and am a vegetarian-I don't need to dull my senses like you do(You write of using cocaine) but if I were you I'd be using cocaine too.

As to A. Ho I'm guessing that's short for Asshole- No it's just a typo- you probably missed our earlier discussions about this-when I'm writing something important that is going to be published I check for typos and grammar-when I'm writing for self described asshole like you and some of the other idiots on this board-who cares-i'm not going to check the grammar for the likes of you and what is it Crud and Patty and other dullards.
Just thought you'd like to know.

I'm sorry, but why should I care whether people use their real names or not -- or post under a number of identities. Far as I know, it's not happening here. It's a rather small community of people who comment - many of whom I know personally, or through friends.

Moreover, I once had an assistant (Worm Boy) who said, on a Wednesday, that Friday would be his last day. I asked him to work just two more days -- through Tuesday -- because I couldn't advertise for and hire an assistant in two days. He said, to my face, that he would -- then went home and wrote me an email saying he wouldn't. I wrote back calling him a weenie (I think that was the word I used), for telling me one think, then weaseling out of it via email. If you're going to do me dirt, at least be straight about it. Anyway, he wrote back that it was "the least professional" work communique he'd ever received. I thought about it for a moment and laughed. I'm not "the man." I don't have to adhere to the standards required by the suit and tie corporations. I run a small business out of my home, with one part-time assistant and one tiny and useless dog. Why do I have to be stuffy? The answer is...I don't.

So I'll say it again: Amy's Unprofessional Rules Of The Advice Goddess Blog are as follows:

*no blog spam advertising your big penis site or whatever.
*please, no rude language as name calling. Otherwise, rude language, when used to make a point, is not really a problem -- but try to keep the C-word to a minimum, as it makes some girls upset and we don't want to chase anybody else away that we already haven't with this comments line here
*if somebody says STFU or worse, it's not really a reason to get an early start on Armageddon. You could even brush it off your sweater as if it were a small bug.
*I'm as immature as the next eight-year-old in many ways, but extended hissy fits are boring, and should be avoided.
*first class plane tickets to Paris with my name on them accepted with a smile.

I like your post Amy-it made sense.
Just a couple of things then
I believe you acknowledge Dr Fiction started the profanity with the STFU. Okay you then say I could essentially take it in stride, brush it off my sweater. I understand your point-but that I won't do. Never happen. Somebody steps into my face- I DO NOT BELIEVE in turning the other cheek. Ever. And never will. As an example about three years ago a guy stepped into my face and tried to slug me. My what to do? Turn the other cheek? No, I bashed his head in to the point that I ended up with one hand in a splint and the other in a cast for three months.(broken fingers on both hands) I never back down either in person or on the net. I don't even say it's right. I just say that that's the way it is. (by the way, this WAS clearly self defense on my part)
and briefly- i just dont see your logic- of course you can do what you want-but-heres my point-unless you monitor the board somehow-anybody can create any character they want-claim to be experts when they are not-it's simply misleading. And you asked me to believe you-well believe me, people do it all the time. so you've got a board full of phantoms. But that's how I see it. Anyway let's put this board to bed.
And one other thing, you mention 8 year old behavior- I was going to say that I'm like a 14 year old. I'm very immature, childish, peevish and pissy. But here's the thing, I like it. I'd have to mature a lot to qualify as a so-called Peter Pan. I love my life, I get to stay a fourteen year old boy- while my friends got married, had kids, got lousy jobs with bosses on top of them-grew old before their times-began drinking, drugging, killing themselves. I stayed single, childless, self-employed and childish (and probably more accurately selfish) as can be and I'm lovin' it.

And to anybody else-let's let this topic die okay?
74 posts-oy vey.

cvolkay@aol.com wrote: -- "as to the fictional dr. asshole as he is fictional no more need be said" -- He then goes on to say plenty.

"other blogs and boards ive been on insist on real emails from real people- that you dont is simply unprofeesional and sloppy." -- First he complains about how it's impossible to post with a fake email address. It must be an inside job. Now he says it's amateur to allow it? Oh, and it's sloppy.

"personally i never initiate the profanity-but once it is raised by someone else-then i do return it in kind." -- I think you called me an asshole. I am not an MD.

"I don't need to dull my senses like you do" -- Perhaps you should relax them though.

"when I'm writing for self described asshole like you" -- I don't recall describing myself as an asshole.

Keep bringing on the wit and if you do indeed have published work please point me in that direction. I wouldn't mind checking it out.

Dr. Jensen wasn't advising anybody, via blog comment, to take Lipitor. He was merely speaking from his experience about a related subject. I found his words informative and correct -- based both on experience and reading of data. As far as getting incensed at a "STFU" -- I get letters addressed to "Dear Bitch," and I laugh. Perhaps it will prevent me from having a coronary while standing over my mail bag.

Moreover, I don't know people who have people try to slug them. Violence is a very primitive response. I prefer reason. Moreover, as a person who's rather libertarian, I'm opposed to violence against people or property. My right to punch you in the nose ends where your nose begins, in other words.

As I noted before, I don't care what names people post under. It hasn't become a problem previously, and I don't foresee it becoming one in the future. When you have a blog, you can have a registration process for posting, and take two long looks in everybody's underwear to boot. This is my blog, and it's pretty lawless territory, unless you're a comments spammer. Then I delete, delete, delete.

REGARDING YOUR REMARK: "I get to stay a fourteen year old boy- while my friends got married, had kids, got lousy jobs with bosses on top of them-grew old before their times-began drinking, drugging, killing themselves. I stayed single, childless, self-employed and childish (and probably more accurately selfish) as can be and I'm lovin' it."

Well, one of my friends, Avery, in New York, is a fourteen-year-old boy -- one who manages to go days, weeks, and months without calling people "asshole."

just when i think it's over they pull me back in. Can't let it go as I suggeted? Well that's certainly mature. Well, since you won't let it drop, here we go.

Even if Dr. Fiction were real it doesnt matter. What he said was wrong. Information needs to be given to people, condoms are not risk-free, people should be told this. I stand by that. The so-called doctor was wrong. Plainly and simply. So real or not it doesnt really matter.

Violence is a very primitive response I prefer reason. Yes and I would prefer that everybody in the world loved each other. But that is simply silly. That's not the real world. When somebody tries to punch you have a right and an obligation in my view to punch back. I understand your philosophy, I just dont agree with it because it is sappy nonsense. I prefer reason-she says-I prefer reason. Everybody prefers reason darling, but it doesn't work that way in the real world. Perhaps we should have applied reason to the first and second world wars, perhaps we should.......oh brother. laudable,, but hopelessly utopian and silly.

Perhaps if your 14 year old friend Avery were writing on this blog full of phony personas with no email addresses he would be calling people asshole too.

And A. HO I was remarking that your name sounded like a short version of asshole. I won't initiate profanity against you. After reading your reply, you seem another typical idiot on this board. There, feel better. You are the type, and I've discussed them before, that goes through the writing with a fine tooth comb, trying to pick out typos and mistakes, pointing them out, and then acting as if you are somehow bright. I am not a typist nor do I care to get this copy right for idiots such as yourself. People like you, and I can only judge by your writing, are so devoid of ideas and concepts, that they are reduced to picking over the copy for errors. I have described it before. You're like the guy that looks at the Mona Lisa, can't see the painting, but complains that the brush strokes are all 2 inches instead of the proper and correct 1 inch. I don't know what you are, but you don't know writing, your talent with letters is as a human spell checker.

Signed,

Crhis Volkaay-(ooh I misspeeled my own name-how manee points do i looose four that?)

Chris,

You walk the fence when you say you were only remarking on my name. Disregarding that, you refer to me as an asshole (self described?) in the same paragraph.
I am not merely picking out typos or grammatical errors. I have pointed out inconsistencies, called you out on initiating profanity and commented on your 'senses'. I did happen to quote your own words. Your writing is all I have to judge.

Dr. Jensen wrote:

"Yes, condoms do have an actual failure rate of 12%, theoretical failure rate of 2% (Callahan, OB/Gyn, 2nd ed.) but what you should keep in mind is that it has a success rate of 88-98%."

"it is much better to have educated teens that can, hopefully, try to prevent pregnancy than one who is uninformed or simply told ëto waití"

Dr. Jensen is aware of the fallability of condoms and he thinks teens should be educated. You state condoms aren't risk-free and people should be told so. Then you say the Dr. is wrong. Is that plain and simple enough?

No A. Ho it's not. You point out exactly what I'm saying idiot. You go through and try find lots of nonsense that means nothing and make an issue of it. fact is your pathetic.
and this so-called jensen only wrote that after i pressed him and he finally wrote that, proving, by the way, that what I was saying all along was RIGHT. In his initial statements he didn't say that. I pointed out his error and then the asshole finally agreed with what I said. proving me right right right- get it asshole(in your case i decided to make an exception) Got now you fucking idiotic asshole?

through your stupidity you helped clarify something a hole.
The fictional doc in his intial response did not agree with me. i told him he was wrong. then he finally did agree with every single thing I said. go back and check the record. so you got it now a hole? check it------

You're hilarious. Those quotes are from his first post. In case you don't understand that: It means you had nothing to press him on.

In the post following it you accuse him of misquoting and fabricating what you wrote. Seems to me he was inquiring that given the option of abstinence-only education or having sex with condoms, which would be the best option? In a later post you say you don't know what his specialty is BUT if asked for sex advice he DID NOT disclose information about condoms, which he advocates, he would be a terrible doctor. YOU are miscomprehending and fabricating.

I didn't comb through all the posts but I don't recall you ever pointing out an error of his. You just got all in his face, and then Amy's, after he told you to STFU. It doesn't take much to set you off.

For the record, I do agree with you that there's no such thing as safe sex, only safer sex. You are right, right, right.

no, your take is backwards and wrong
you say i had nothing to press the doc on-why would I? he showed up to press me-which he tried and failed when he finally admitted that every single thing that i said was true-----
and there are no inconsistencies in what i've written-just different quotes at different times in an ongoing and changing debate. you site those things out of context dumb ass. So I'm right you're wrong- fuck off

Chris, it was minimally amusing for a while, now it's getting tired. Please cut the abusive language.

Why would you press him? I don't know, but you said that you did your very self.

as long as I continue to have insults and abuse hurled at me, I will respond in kind. Period.

FYI

I'm done with this.

a ho
just when it was getting good......coward
and i pressed him to get him to acknowledge what i was saying was true... do you know what out of context even means....

Ok. Insults and abuse? Please find a mirror.

Yes, of course I know what 'out of context' means. Maybe you understand chronology? Please explain how my take of the context is backwards. Can you? Maybe you could cite some sources.

OH MY GOODNESS
OH GOOD HEAVENS
WOOOWEEE ZOOOWEEEE.....
Let's see now A. Ho, scroll oh 'bout two comments up-what do we see? I see a comment by A.HO that says..FYI I'm done with this. WOWWWWEEEE....
A major inconsistency, you said something that was untrue...here you are again. Wow this is big this is major..good ol' A.Ho caught in something that obviously wasn't true. Frankly A. HO you should be ashamed of yourself.
FOR SHAME-----------------
should I explain what FYI i'm done with this, actually means A.HO?

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

You're right Lena
as soon as this last flying monkey leaves me alone, i'm gone

No please don't. I understand what I said and realize it could even be taken as a lie.

You still haven't tried to explain yourself further. Perhaps you could do so without picking a new point to debate. My guess is you won't even try.

Did you know that you let the first insults fly in this thread. Check out your second post.

Ahh. Cute.

Interesting that you want to be left alone, so you can be done, because this is such a snooze, but you couldn't let it go when I said I was done. Instead you insulted me.

Oh my goodness you cannot get out of this that easily-that was a blatant lie- A major LIE wow
see how stupid it all is a ho? admit your humiliation and then go away-as I told lena-unless amy starts acting up, you're the last one-why not let this nonsense die here---

Get out of what? You want so bad for me to acknowledge that what you say is true. Explain it.

You want to be done. You said you would respond in kind to insults and abuse. Then I thought I would just leave it be. Then you insult me, again.

I admit no humiliation. I do feel silly that I spoke too soon, and knew it after I did it, since I was nearly certain that you wouldn't just let it go as it stood. As for 'the last one', there's at least two of us here.

Oh good heavens
ya know i already admitted in this thread that I was childish, but I must say I've had lots and lots of company. I'm going to bed now. I can continue your humiliation tomorrow if you like.
As far as you admitting your humiliation, it's completely moot. Whether you admit it or not it is simply so. I have no need to explain anything to you. You're a convicted liar. I may have to file charges with the D.A. And i was alluding to you being the last of the flying monkeys pestering me.

Yes. I was realize what you were alluding to. You of course, are the victim.

Convicted liar? Sure, whatever. I admit to my folly. Call it humiliation if you choose.

Why you have such a hard time following up on your previous assertions regarding the actual meat of this thread I don't know. I'm sure I won't get you back to that, you'll only ramble on and on. A thousand posts could go here and until I submit to your badgering you won't quit.

Both our BS is here for all to see and your's is as apparent as mine, whether you acknowledge it or not.

That was going to be it but I have something else to add.

It's quite interesting after the big stink made about everyone speaking up against self-righteous authority that you bob, sway, and otherwise deter genuine observations with redirection and insults.

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE
Okay I'm back A Ho.
There is nothing to respond to child
My case has already been made
I was right, the doc wrong, with him finally agreeing everything I said was right. so you're wrong, I'm right, you're a liar,
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE
NA NA NA NAAA NA....
NA NA NA NAAA NA....

A lot of you seem immature and stupid. I am 15 and can't see myself being that naive now or a few years ago. Thats what I think.