More On Abu Ghraib
Matt Welch points the way to this piece on NormBlog, a supporter of the war in Iraq:
Amidst the general feelings of abhorrence brought forth by the revelations about the torture and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, those of us who supported the war in Iraq as a liberation of the Iraqi people from Baathist dictatorship have had a more particular reason to feel appalled. For it was precisely because that regime was one which permitted and practised torture and other unforgiveable crimes on the scale it did that it was an appropriate object, for us, of external intervention and removal. The project to remove it which it was right to support, and whose completion through the achievement of a sovereign, democratic Iraq it remains right, even now, to see through, has been shamefully and irreversibly tainted by what was done by American soldiers in that notorious prison. It is not to the point to say that the abuses were not, either in nature or scale, comparable to the crimes of the Saddam Hussein regime. The practice of torture, just as such, is an unmixed and inexcusable evil; it is an abomination.
A Fly On The Wall quotes his grandfather, one of the liberators of the concentration camp Mauthausen, weighing in on Abu Ghraib:
I hear soldiers saying this happened because they weren't trained properly. What kind of idiot has to be trained not to abuse another human being?
The sister of one of the accused torturers (perhaps Lindsay something?) was on the radio last night. It sounded like an ambush interview, where a guy slammed a mic at her throat as she walked up her driveway. She said "No, my sister's a good woman who follows orders, she must have been doing what she was told."
See, I think the world and all of public education. I'll always be grateful for the eight months of study we gave to WWII in 5th grade (1968). But people will not always learn this fundamental lesson of decency, no matter how much the state struggles to teach it: Following orders is no excuse.
At some point, you gotta hope that the churches are teaching the lesson too. Don't you? Who ya gonna call?
Crid at May 8, 2004 11:06 AM
From the MSNBC webpage, in an item about the more serious pictures Rumsfeld described in his testimony yesterday:
"U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and 'acting inappropriately with a dead body.' The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."
The complete story is here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
Arvinder Singh at May 8, 2004 11:43 AM
"People will not always learn this fundamental lesson of decency, no matter how much the state struggles to teach it: Following orders is no excuse."
Your attempt to salvage a benevolent image of the state from this disaster is amusing, Crid. Yes, daddy loves you! He really does!
I'm reminded now of that old Stanley Milgrim experiment on torture. If I remember correctly, only one study participant stood up against the lab-coated authority figure (ie, "the state") and stopped administering the shocks. The rest of them followed orders blindly, despite the screams of pain they were eliciting.
Is Abu Ghraib yet further evidence that the majority of us are spineless scumbags who will unquestioningly do as we're told, even if our actions go against the most basic principles of wagon train morality?
Lena
PS: Maybe it's time to rock out to Todd. A girl's gotta let go now and then.
Lena at May 8, 2004 12:21 PM
> Your attempt to salvage a benevolent image
> of the state...
Quite the opposite. Reread it. I think people who try to vector all of human decency through government are first, tragically foolish and second, pathetically doomed. Hillary Clinton will not help you get your health care in order, nor your racial understanding, nor your education. She will however take a piece of as many pies as you're willing to cede.
If you're resistent to Dig Daddy government, you're going to have to count on other forces, including institutions such as churches.
> Maybe it's time to rock out to Todd. A
> girl's gotta let go now and then.
Ain't it the truth? I loved that boy back in the day. But it's been many years since he created any work of interest. I think his gift was like McCartney's: A tremendous talent in a small realm. And like McCartney, he extinguished it before midlife by smoking dope.
Crid at May 8, 2004 2:23 PM
Crid -- Your entry seemed clearly to be an expression of gratitude for public education and the fundamental lesson of decency you gained from it (and which "the state struggles to teach") as a fifth grader.
Lena at May 8, 2004 5:51 PM
hey Crid -- yes, it's a shame about Todd. but Patti Smith is aging beautifully. her new album Trampin' is a gem.
Lena at May 8, 2004 5:53 PM
I wrote it badly. Take two: Government can't make people be decent at this fundamental level (wartime in an isolated shithole). That decency has to come from somewhere else. Government can teach you about times that decency's broken down in hhistory, but that won't necessarily prepare you for the real deal.
I met Patti at a college radio conference in Chicago in 1977. A bunch of us hung out and smoked dope. I asked her if she ever did anything musical with Todd. She said "I did a LOT of things with Todd!" I blushed a teenage, hillbilly shade of red.
Do you actually listen to her music? It's OK if you don't... Nobody actually cares about the Ramones or Television or any of those other New-York-Times-intellectual groups who sell less than 8,000 copies.
Crid at May 8, 2004 6:09 PM
Lena read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/29/magazine/29RAMONE.html?ex=1084161600&en=b28f9b0dbb5f4aee&ei=5070
crid at May 8, 2004 6:13 PM
Churches should indeed focus on fundamental decency. Most of the time, they're so busy complaining about some kind of sex or another that they don't focus on the far more important issue of not causing intense pain to one's fellow man.
Interesting, for example, how the prominent Catholics are speaking out against John Kerry for being pro-choice, yet not for being pro-death penalty (in which case they'd have to go after Bush big-time), which is supposed to be equally abhorrent to the religion.
LYT at May 8, 2004 6:51 PM
You don't need religion or belief in god to behave well. Here's my list (in no particular order):
1. Be kind
2. Be ethical
3. Live rationally
4. Leave the campground better than you found it.
It's called Amyism, and the collection plate is that Amazon button or Paypal button on your left. Send me $25, and e-mail me your address, and I'll send you a piece of my garbage in a signed ziplock bag. Unlike other religions, which promise you salvation, but really - is there any guarantee? If you send me money, I promise you, *I* will have a better life!
Amy Alkon at May 8, 2004 7:01 PM
Yep, I listen to Patti Smith. I met her too, in 1978. And I saw Television, the Ramones, the Clash, the Jam, etc, all those bands, in NYC back in the 70s. I did lots of drugs, dyed my hair blue-black, and wore smudgy eye pencil. I blame it all on Catholic school.
Lena at May 8, 2004 10:19 PM
The drugs, the hair, the makeup... All that stuffs fine. But be good to yourself, don't LISTEN to that shit!
Crid at May 9, 2004 12:34 AM
Woops there. The comments have strayed a wee bit. Anyone interested in voicing their protest against the torture in Iraq may sign a petition at John Kerry's website.
http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rumsfeld.php
And there's really no excuse for the cruelty and stupidity being played out in the Iraqi drama. As my brother put it yesterday, Osama Bin Laden is getting exactly what he wants. We are making the U.S. the bad guy in the Middle East.
Sheryl at May 9, 2004 11:58 AM
"Woops there. The comments have strayed a wee bit."
Gee, aren't we lucky to have Officer Sheryl to keep us in line! Take a pill, Sher.
Lena at May 9, 2004 12:08 PM
Furthermore, SugahSheryl, the US was a FAR WORSE guy in the Middle East when it was arming hillbilly mobsters like Saddam for million-casualty wars against neighbors, and selling him chem weapons, etc. Historial perspective is a wonderful tool here.
Also, tell your brother that OBL died under a daisy cutter a week or two before Thanksgiving in 2001. People who claim he lives are either [A] foolish NSA functionaries working some indeterminate political angle or [B] simply foolish. Boyfriend be wormfood, and it's OK by me.
A petition against Rumsfeld? At Kerry's website? Imagine!
Crid at May 9, 2004 5:44 PM
This is an especially interesting topic for me, actually, because when I was in the army, I WAS an interrogator. The rules of the Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners in instilled in you in both Basic Training, and in my MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). I would imagine that MPs probably get the same treatment.
That said, there can be no doubt that these dregs of the military, if not humanity, were taught the rules. They chose not to abide by them.
Patrick at May 9, 2004 7:40 PM
Patrick, what is the investigation that you want to see? What specific events and proceedures would convince you that it isn't a whitewash?
Crid at May 9, 2004 8:34 PM
Very interesting, Patrick. Let's hear more from you!
Lena at May 9, 2004 8:47 PM
"Gee, aren't we lucky to have Officer Sheryl to keep us in line! Take a pill, Sher. " Only if you're sharing Lena, and if you are crid could use a couple.
Sheryl at May 11, 2004 9:03 PM
Fortunately, my brain chemistry is not quite as robust as it was back in high school. Smoking a joint at this point in my life would probably land my ass back in the guidance counselor's office, trying to understand why my English teacher is unable to express his desire to sleep with me.
Any drugs that I have now are completely legal. When I'm really feeling wild, I'll have a chocolate bar and a cup of black coffee. I'm a big fan of Tylenol PM too.
Lena at May 11, 2004 10:27 PM
Passing a Lindor chocolate to Lena....enjoy!
Sheryl at May 12, 2004 9:14 PM