The Pot Is Not Melting Too Well These Days
You know, when my piss-poor Russian and German ancestors got chased out of Europe by the Cossacks and other equally Jewish-positive types, and ended up in that Garden of Eden, Detroit, Michigan, nobody was bending over backward to see that German and Russian were spoken so they could get by. No, they were expected to learn the English language, imagine that -- and they did. My Russian-born great grandfather learned it while collecting scrap metal off the streets, and my Russian-born grandfather was the first in the family to go to college, and med school at that. Until recently, that's always been the way in America: move here, melt in, move up. Not any more. I call any number in California and there's usually a wait while a message plays in Spanish first, then "Press One" if you want English. Now, I understand if this is the case when you call an emergency number. But, the rest of the time, maybe we shouldn't be making it so easy on people to keep from blending in. Maybe what it's ultimately doing is making it nearly impossible for them to move up.
One minor point -- we didn't win Detroit in a war with Russia or Germany.
Some Spanish-speaking people could make a decent claim that they were here first.
Now, there are arguments against that. But it isn't analagous to Russian or German.
LYT at February 20, 2005 2:34 AM
LYT, I don't think that has anything to do with why people aren't learning English. At least in schools, Ron Unz got English immersion passed -- using his own money to fight the vested interests of the bilingual education movement, proving that bilingual education actually kept kids from learning English and joining our economy. But, a whole lot of people are here who are never going to go to school. My relatives learned English. Why not theirs?
Amy Alkon at February 20, 2005 8:19 AM
Many of the department stores near me are beginning to use Spanish as the primary "sales announcement" language that broadcasts over the intercoms. More division. There is increasingly less of a "public language" (as Richard Rodriguez calls it) that unifies the people. If the common communication fractures, so to does the foundation of our society.
Doug at February 20, 2005 10:13 AM
"bilingual education actually kept kids from learning English and joining our economy."
Bilingual "education": I can think of no better way to ensure that the residents of Beverly Hills have an ample supply of low-paid Hispanic gardeners for generations to come.
Lena at February 20, 2005 10:21 AM
The orthodontists in Beverly Hills are all Persian anyway. I agree that this is a shame, but it's over: There are many millions of taxpaying, fecund spanish-speakers nowadays who will strongly resist english-only initiatives. And the vendors who serve them will build their own tremendous wealth and political power, though they may not concentrate it in Beverly Hills. We're fucked.
Cridland at February 20, 2005 11:49 AM
Persians are white, Crid (see "White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race" by Ian Haney Lopez).
"There are many millions of taxpaying, fecund spanish-speakers nowadays who will strongly resist english-only initiatives."
Citations, kitten?
Lena-doodle-doo at February 20, 2005 12:34 PM
Your feelings have been hurt, we can tell.
Cridland at February 20, 2005 1:14 PM
Here ya go:
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t20/tab05.pdf
It's good that your on the case so closely. It would be tragic fault in the future of blog commentary if I were permitted to deceive readers in such pivotal details.
> Persians are white
Who said they weren't?
Cridland at February 20, 2005 1:20 PM
"Millions of taxpaying, fecund spanish-speakers who will strongly resist english-only initiatives" is not equal to "millions of spanish-speakers" as per the U.S. census (which, by the way, I analyze regularly) You're gonna need something more than U.S. census data to support your seemingly casual claim about how Hispanics view English-only initiatives. Kitten.
Lena-doodle-doo at February 20, 2005 2:29 PM
It doesn't just seem casual, it really was casual... I figger if spanish-speaking people believed in speaking English-only, they'd speak English. (The pot would then melt, and Alkon could post more cool car pix and religion diatribes.) Does anyone doubt it, or are you just upset about getting slammed earlier in the week?
Cridland at February 20, 2005 3:00 PM
People who want to get ahead will learn English - they know that's where the money & opportunities are. Hispanic's are not ignorant, some are just struggling to get a foothold.
Jack at February 20, 2005 8:31 PM
When did I get slammed?
"I figger if spanish-speaking people believed in speaking English-only, they'd speak English."
Again, there's no support for this in census data.
Lena-doodle-doo at February 20, 2005 9:40 PM
Just cause our grandparents or parents did something in some particular way when they immigrated here 50 or more years ago doesn't not mean that this necessarily how currently immigrants should do things.
Really Amy I thought you were a little more forward thinking then that.
You know women were expected to marry and have children then. You don't still think they should do those things necessarily do you?
alex at February 21, 2005 9:54 AM
Alex, I don't think the current laziness about learning English is a good thing. It has nothing to do with being attached to how things were out of some misplaced nostalgia. Do you really think it's good for Spanish speakers, economically, for starters, to keep speaking Spanish and not learn English? Please.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2005 10:38 AM
"Do you really think it's good for Spanish speakers, economically, for starters, to keep speaking Spanish and not learn English?"
For starters...
Poor proficiency in English affects everyone -- individuals, organizations, communities. I work in a department that's so wonderfully multicultural and multi-lingual that accomplishing even the most rudimentary of tasks is a major ballbuster. I'm fond of my colleagues, but some days I just want to give them all gift certificates to Berlitz. It's not xenophobic to expect that people living and working in this country should be able to communicate well in English.
Lena-doodle-doo at February 21, 2005 11:40 AM
Hi Alex -
If women don't have children, we're all in the merde, no ? Men can't have children, surely ! Yet, anyway. (smile)
Nowadays immigrants from Mexico to the US can simply hop into a vehicle and drive back where they originally came from for a weekend visit with the family. Immigrants from further away would have to fly, perhaps, but the trip "home" (i.e., the country of origin) and back to the "new" country is relatively easy.
However, immigrants fifty or a hundred years ago – especially those from Western and Eastern Europe, whether Catholics, Protestants or Jews - had no intention of returning whence they came, ever. Perhaps that's where the difference in adopting English lies nowadays. Of necessity, bridges were burned much more easily, then.
L'Amerloque
L'Amerloque at February 21, 2005 12:00 PM
I think (and I can't say I really know cause I am a whitey) that many immigrants now feel it's acceptable to maintain thier culture when they arrive. Where as in the past diversity was not appreciated or tolerated.
My grandmother didn't speak german or yiddish because they were afraid to be anything other then white non-jewish americans.
I am happy to let people speak whatever they prefer.
alex at February 21, 2005 12:26 PM
Big picture, big picture, Alex. Economic divide is a big part of it.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2005 1:18 PM
Yes but it's a free country. Free to be economically divided or not.
alex at February 21, 2005 2:56 PM
Hablo espanol bastante bien (y por eso, Senorita Alkon y yo tenenemos que viajar a Espana algun dia). Sin embargo, hay que saber la lengua del pais donde vive, para comunicar y trabajar muy bien con otra gente. Alex es un tonto, porque crea que las problemas de las clases bajas significa "it's a free country." Es una lastima!
Lena del Barrio at February 21, 2005 4:37 PM
Now, THAT really opened up the dialogue, didn't it?
(It's a free country, and I'm free to shut down productive, enjoyable, and clear communication any time I want. Fuck them all.)
Lena Cuisina, Eternal Nihilist at February 21, 2005 11:04 PM
Jeez, I thought this chick was smart until I read the "why don't they learn English comment". That's the kind of thing stupid people say because they are unable to learn new things and are afraid they might have to learn a new language if it that language proliferates.
I plan to start learning spanish this summer - because I can!
cindy at February 22, 2005 7:54 AM
Cindy, all this "it's a small world after all" crap is really getting tired. If you worked where I do, learning only Spanish would not be enough in order to communicate effectively and get things done. You'd also need to learn Farsi, Cantonese, Arabic, and some Ethiopian language. How practical is that?
Lena-doodle-doo at February 22, 2005 8:12 AM
Hi Lena -
The same debate is starting up here, too. It's really a pain.
For the moment, anyway ... when in France, the official language is French. Period. It's the law. Period. Business must be conducted in French. Period. Contracts must be in French. Period. Advertising must be in French. Period.
Kinda simplifies things. Fortunately for all of us. Unfortunately, though, the Politically Correct contingent is pushing for bilingual education for immigrants in public schools, but they will keep being shot down. Fortunately for all of us, since to suceed in France, one must speak and write French. There is some bilingual education in some parts of France in some public schools, but the languages in question are traditional French regional languages and dialects: Breton, Occitan, Alsatian. Private schools can do what they want, to some extent: Hebrew, Sikh, Arabic, whatever.
Note that in Holland a new law (six or eight weeks old) requires immigrants ro be operational in Dutch. After they arrive, they have to learn Dutch. Period. Not before they come, luckily for them.
L'Amerloque
L'Amerloque at February 22, 2005 8:33 AM
Lena_doodle_doo
I live and work in New York City, where pretty much every country is represented. Like I said I want to learn spanish because I can (it would be a third language) as opposed to people who can only speak one language and have not been able to learn anything new since they got their GED!
cindy at February 22, 2005 8:52 AM
Lena,
Just cause we don't agree doesn't make me a fool.
Thanks for the niffty new words in spanish.
alex at February 22, 2005 10:19 AM
Alex -- "Tonto" translates better as "idiot" than as "fool."
Cindy -- I grew up in New York City, and every morning on the subway I had the pleasure of smelling the representatives of all the wonderful countries you allude to. People with suboptimal English wouldn't be so bad if they knew how to bathe.
Lena at February 22, 2005 11:19 AM
Alex - you are either lying or the terrible smell was your own. I have only encountered smelly people on the trains on two occasions, in the last two years, once on the D train and once on the 6 and they both asked for spare change in good old American English.
cindy at February 22, 2005 11:47 AM
Hey, LENA was the one who made the offensive remark, not Alex!
And Cindy, the reason you haven't smelled the stinking greaseballs in the NYC subway is that your own stench (fish-like, no doubt) is overpowering all of the them.
Lena "Don't Go There" Cuisina at February 22, 2005 11:56 AM
Lena, The reason I don't smell it is because I live and work in the better part of the city. Maybe if you finished high school and got yourself a decent job you might be able to afford to move out of the gutter you live in.
cindy at February 23, 2005 6:56 AM
Um, Cindy, insults are only interesting and funny if there's some truth to them. Let's just say Lena's usualy spots for publishing, outside this blog, are highly regarded peer-reviewed journals.
ALEX SAID: "My grandmother didn't speak german or yiddish because they were afraid to be anything other then white non-jewish americans.
I am happy to let people speak whatever they prefer."
A lucky thing Ron Unz wasn't, or there would be a lot of Spanish-speaking children (now scoring high on tests thanks to English immersion) on the fast track to be gardeners. Alex, I'm not saying you're a fool, but I will say that you have the logic of a sea turtle.
Amy Alkon at February 23, 2005 7:05 AM
I wish I were a sea turtle.
alex at February 23, 2005 8:23 AM
Cindy --
I'm beginning to like you! I bet you're a foul-mouthed little firecracker in bed -- like me! My clit is getting harder as I write.
hugs,
Leener
PS: I have a PhD from a top-tier U.S. university. So while I might have a lot of issues, lack of education isn't one of them.
PPS: Alex es una tortuga del mar.
Lena at February 23, 2005 9:38 AM
Reading this thread has been the most fun I have had all day. My father's family is from Mexico and while he grew up speaking Spanish and English, no one in his family deluded themselves into thinking that it would be fine to live the rest of their lives here without learning the language.
I will never understand why people go through the hardships and dificulties it takes to emigrate to another country and then stay so firmly rooted in the culture of the country they left. I am not saying they should give up all aspects of their culture but its a bit like converting from Catholicism to Judaism yet having statues of the Virgin Mary and Crucifictions all through your house.
While I am proud of my hispanic heritage and enjoy a number of aspects of the culture, I am an American and if they choose to emigrate here and become citizens then they are Americans too and in America we speak English. Speak all the languages you want, but if you're American make sure English is one of them.
Kevin at February 23, 2005 10:24 AM
"Reading this thread has been the most fun I have had all day."
-- we aim to please, bubby!
By the way, your post was great. Will you marry me?
Lena at February 23, 2005 10:38 AM
Amy: regarding insults being funny only when true - that started way back with Lena's first "smelly" comment.
Cindy at February 23, 2005 11:47 AM
Sniff, sniff... Not sure about that one, Cindy. I'm 3000 miles from NYC, but it's like you're right here with me.
Lena at February 23, 2005 1:26 PM
Lena - Although reading your posts stirs something inside me and the thought of engaging your intellect on a daily (and nightly) basis is intriguing, I am taken. I am flattered by your offer and will continue to admire you from afar. It would never work though - I drive an SUV. A modest SUV, but an SUV nonetheless.
Kevin at February 24, 2005 2:36 PM
"reading your posts stirs something inside me"
Like WHERE inside you? These stirrings aren't by any chance accompanied by noises, are they?
Lena-doodle-doo at February 24, 2005 3:37 PM
It's intriguing and bawdy.
Amy Alkon at February 24, 2005 4:54 PM
Leave a comment