I struggle every day with my prejudice against Xtianity. What I personally have suffered at the hands of religious zealots causes me to narrowly view anyone dogmatic about things of a spiritual nature. I guess the most pressing problem I see with religion is its tendency to feed on the low self-esteem of its followers, prey on their naivete, and subsequently take financial advantage of sheeple while keeping one jack booted foot firmly planted on the necks of their victims. The oppressed, rather than revolting, ask for another kick while they are down and seem desperate to get into a non-existent "heaven". They are told that they are worthless and not capable of making their own decisions (Jeremiah 17:9 - 'The human heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?'), and then the cult masters have them - body and soul. They give their minds over to people who then continue to manipulate them in the name of power and the Almighty Dollar.

I believe that education is the key, but people seem determined to wallow in their ignorance. Of course, ultimately, it is a way for them to abdicate their personal responsibility: if they have someone to tell them how to live, what car to buy, and what toilet paper to wipe their butt with, they don't have to make any decisions for themselves; then, as their lives spiral downward, out of control, they can blame the devil ("Why is this happening to me? God is allowing Satan to test me by influencing that person to report me to social services for child abuse.") instead of looking honestly at themselves and saying, "Hey, maybe if I hadn't beaten the crap out of my kid (Prov. 22:15 'Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.'), she wouldn't have been taken from me! I was only doing what god said!"

If you're sensing my defensive frustration here, you are right. Perhaps my early life could have been different if someone had actually made a call on my behalf. Water under the bridge now, of course, and I've created a good life for myself since then. But the stains remain, and the scars run deep.

Religion sucks.

Goddyss -- "Sheeple"! I like it!

Satanism is the answer!

Actually, Satan is just another xtian deity...

Amy:

The Church's position on condoms is entirely consistent with their position on pre-marital sex and adultery. If people followed the Church's teaching to the letter instead of cherry picking what they will follow then there wouldn't be an AIDS epidemic.

Condoms are practically handed out like after dinner mints in the U.S. and it hasn't stopped the spread of AIDS around here. At this point it's just people being stupid, lazy, and selfish in the U.S. I'm sure that people in Guatemala are just as aware as your typical American that unprotected sex puts you at higher risk for STDs.

Godless:

I feel the same way about socialists. Only they're more like lemmings than sheep.

My views on religion are well known to anyone who reads my blog. Christianity has been responsible for death, suffering and torture in this world and is simply a tool untilized by the unscrupulous to wield power and control over their victims. Needless to say, "Jesus Corp" is now one of the largest, wealthiest industries in the US and the stinking rich are rubbing their hands with glee. One doesn't need to have been abused as a child to realize the inherent "Evil' in religion - to coin one of their own 'control' words - all it requires is a minimum of common sense.

> simply a tool untilized by the unscrupulous
> to wield power and control over their victims.

Arj, that's just stupid. Were it so, you and I would huddle outside the sanctuaries on Sunday morning to beat the shit out of the freshly-prayered families as they walked out onto the street. Or did I miss something? What fate WOULD you prefer for the average Christian practitioner in Los Angeles?

You want them to snap into a condition of "common sense," which I suspect consists of a cosmological perspective similar to your own. You might get farther in your persuasion if you granted them the understanding that their lives have darkness and frost that aren't answered by secular forces... And are certainly not balmed by your condescension.

Christianity has been indisputably responsible for death, suffering and torture. But so has vehicular traffic. In my lifetime (and for many generations back), my family has suffered much more from travel accidents than from religious persecution.

Everyone is SO full of piss. It's a basic human need, I tell ya... The impulse to look down on others.

"If people followed the Church's teaching to the letter instead of cherry picking what they will follow then there wouldn't be an AIDS epidemic."

If the Church could tug its head out of the rectum of the Middle Ages, it might notice that the messy realities of human sexual desire and behavior consistently expose their "teachings" as irrelevant.

Oh, if only we didn't have genitals! If every conception were immaculate!

"It's a basic human need, I tell ya... The impulse to look down on others."

Nietzche's "will to power," more or less?

Actually, the insight came Stateside, and century later. It was Mickey Dolenz who put this all together in the late sixties. His lawyer had finally explained that he was contractually bound to Screen Gems for a decade beyond the signoff of his phenomenally successful but ludicrous TV show. The Mickster sat there in his sweltering SFV apartment, listening to Ginger Baker thundering through "White Room" on the radio, knowing that the era of 'cute' rock drummers had passed, and he cried out: "Christ! People are SHITS!"

In the 70's, Tork offered several important essays about the darkness of the human spirit as well, but these were not broadly published.

Nick who?

I was raised Catholic. I ended up with an abortion at 17 cause I didn't use birth control. Then, later in my long life, I was excommunicated from the church I was going to because I divorced my husband. I left him because he wouldn't fuck me. Let me just say that I am happier, my daughter is on birth control, and fuck religion. Wow! I used fuck twice in one paragraph with two completely different meanings. How fun is that?
Lena you are my hero. I like what you say.

"I left him because he wouldn't fuck me."

I hope you kicked him in the face on your way out! You're my hero too, girl!

  Christianity has been indisputably responsible for death, suffering and torture.

And let's not forget Christians been victims of this as well. When I was in Italy a few years ago I saw the ramps from the holding pens where they kept the lions that led to the Coliseum floor. What comes around goes around?

------------------------------------

Amy,

First of all, I'm not calling you pretentious, but honestly, I doubt you feel any deep concern for the poor public health situation in El Salvador. I think you just like to rag on Christians.

Besides, is it really your contention that if all the agencies in El Salvador associated with the Catholic church suddenly withdrew their presence and involvement, that the AIDS problem would measurably improve? I'm no epidemiologist, you're right about that much, but that's just a load of malarkey. India, for instance, has one of the highest infection rates of AIDS in the world, and the last time I checked the Catholic Church and its agencies had little influence there. Apathy, indifference, and long held cultural taboos are the biggest reasons men don't wear condoms (and women don't demand it), not lies from the Vatican.

What's more, I read that Catholic relief agencies are responsible for over 25% of all charitable work involved in AIDS relief worldwide. By that measure, if you were really concerned about relieving the suffering from AIDS in El Salvador, you'd seriously consider joining one of them!

"Apathy, indifference, and long held cultural taboos are the biggest reasons men don't wear condoms"

Perhaps the desire to feel a nice, wet hole (instead of latex) gripping their cocks might also have something to do with the decision not to wear condoms?

Most Christian people are good people. They mean well. They are against gay marriage because they think (erroneously) its an issue of government telling church what to teach. Some of them think that Republicans are the moral party because they talk about God more. Some of them think that Democrats want Christianity stamped out because of people like that idiot atheist who thought it was so horrible that his daughter (who I think was of the Jewish faith) would have to hear the word God in the pledge that he took his silly cause all the way to the supreme court. This kind of thing, in their eyes, makes Republicans more moral by default. And finally, some of them are democrats because they erroneously believe that Democrats stand up for the poor, when Democrats actually stand for nothing.

Suburbanite Christians are just like all other 'average' Americans. Maybe that frog that thinks (for some reason) that pharmacy owners are paid by the state is right and I'm a 'child-like Libertarian' who believes that these people are just too concerned with taking Jimmy to soccer and cheating on their diet to gain a complete understanding of theoretical political issues that will likely never affect them, such as gay adoption. But I genuinely believe this.

When the nutcases like Bauer and the left-behind asshole's stepford wife start taking spousal rights away from husbands or rallying against Desperate Housewives, average Joe and average Jane will take notice and vote against these causes-Christian or not. Look at the upsurge of living wills after the Schiavo thing. These people, many of them Christian, weren't getting these things to ensure that their slack-jawed PVS husks could be paraded around on television for some bogus preacher's bogus cause. Quite the opposite.

Remember. For every Pat Robertson or James Dobson, there are about a hundred thousand Christian guy's next door, who'll fix your lawnmower for free on his own time or watch your house for you when you step out of town. There are a hundred thousand women who will be genuinely interested when your hellspawn got a ribbon for joining the school fucking band. All this legislation by nutcase philosophy is going to pass as quickly as it came. Santorum's way behind Casey here in Penna; he'll be the first domino to fall.

Remember. For every Pat Robertson or James Dobson, there are about a hundred thousand Christian guys next door, who'll fix your lawnmower for free on his own time or watch your house for you when you step out of town.

Yep, and these arre the people who don't trumpet their Christianity as though it were a sales technique.
The idiot born-agains are the worst at being Christian. They're too busy talking at you to behave in a Christ-like manner.
I know--- I was one.

"For every Pat Robertson or James Dobson, there are about a hundred thousand Christian guy's next door, who'll fix your lawnmower for free on his own time or watch your house for you when you step out of town."

And they'll do it for the same basic reason that atheists will: the expectation you'll return the favor in the future.

> the expectation you'll return the favor in
> the future.

Lena, what is the precious condition of emotional holiness that you WANT from people? In any number of cases, that is simply not true. Lots of religious people will do nice things for you just because they can, and because they've been taught to. They've certainly done so for me.

The endless search for dark interior motives that animates the lefty heart isn't a sophisticated ethical nuance, or a couragious embrace of contrarianism, or a Marxist appreciation of man's commercial nature. You just hate to think that anyone could possibly be nicer than you. Or smarter. Or better to the 'environment.'

Yet again: Condescension is base humanity.

PS- What Ted said!

Crid --

I don't doubt that people like you and me, regardless of religious background or political leanings, like to do kind things simply because it feels good to be kind. My post on the norm of reciprocity was offered as a counterbalance to the lawnmowers and white picket fences inhabiting Ted's post. I like discussions a little edgier than that (which, by the way, is one of the reasons I'm glad you're here too).

Now calm down.

Lena

"I like edgy discussions... Now calm down!"

Also, what Arky said about Catholic good works.

Lena, you are so right, sex without condoms just feels better!!! But I had a guy who ALWAYS used a condom and he was so great that just the smell of a newly opened condom was enough to totally turn me on.

And on the subject of nice people, some religious people are assholes and some atheists are thoughtful and self-sacrificing. I myself am a hedonist and I'm selfish as hell. Surprisingly, people like me. Guess I'm fun!

Crid - I fail to comprehend how stating that religion is "...simply a tool utilized by the unscupulous to wield power and control over their victims." suggests I would "beat the shit" out of families as they leave church. Perhaps that's what your religion teaches you to do - beat the shit out of people.
My beliefs don't preach that, but maybe the concept of 'Love' hasn't filtered through to your religious doctrine yet.
I don't care what anyone chooses to believe or how they translate it into their daily lives so long as they keep it to themselves and don't foist it on others. Each has the right to choose their own path, but if my daughter needs a legal abortion to save her life, or I decide my wife would rather legally die than spend the rest of her days as a cabbage, I don't expect some pretentious religious bigot to camp outside with placards, screaming for my blood and telling me I'm going to hell.
When the head of the catholic church denies suffering people the tools that can help them combat deadly illness then I'll shout the hypocrisy of such 'christian' teachings just as loudly as I can.
As for common sense, it has nothing to do with cosmological perspectives, but is a lot about accepting what is known to exist, rather than believing mythological fairy tales with less credibility than Santa Claus, and demanding everyone believe the same.
Regarding the accusation of superiority - show me anyone filled to the brim with more condescension than a born-again christian.
"Everyone is so full of piss." - was that from the Sermon on the Mount?

Your ellipsis edited out this part: "I'm glad you're here too."

By the way, Lena knows a thing or two about the good works of faith-based organizations. She spent the better part of the 1980s cooking daily meals for people with AIDS in -- yikes! -- the basement of a Presbyterian church in New York City. While there, she learned that good works can be influenced both by religious/spiritually based altruism AND the norm of reciprocity. Many of the aspiring Mother Theresas who volunteered with us admitted that they believed the time they contributed would work in their favor, should they also become sick and need our services in the future. There is nothing shameful about this. It's just the way people think.

I shoulds nailed down a particular, typical phrase. But this stack included gems like "the most pressing problem I see with religion is its tendency to feed on the low self-esteem of its followers, prey on their naivete, and subsequently take financial advantage of sheeple." Jack-booted thuggery is discussed. The word evil also appears above, in a tuxedo of scare quotes... I assumed the author feels that evil is something which good people will counter aggressively.

> ...show me anyone filled to the brim with more
> condescension than a born-again christian.

Life's not a footrace to see who can be most belittling the soonest. Both sides of this are feeling the same human need to look down on others. As Ted notes, most of the faithful are good folks. I think most religious people are just trying to get a little peace of mind on a horridly difficult planet.

Goddyss' calculation is correct: religion sucks, so I don't participate. But your mileage may vary, and coming to a different conclusion doesn't mean you're stupid. It doesn't mean you're cowardly. And it certainly doesn't mean you're evil.

Well stated, Crid.

I *do* believe that each person's path is sacred in its own right, as long as one is not bringing harm to anyone else. There is something to be said for the golden rule in its many forms "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "An it harm none, do what ye will." "Do what ye will is the whole of the law; love is the law, love under will." Whatever your belief system or non-belief system, be good to the earth and its inhabitants...

That being said, religion has destroyed my family, quite literally, and I look upon the cult masters with a jaundiced eye because of my life experiences. I try to resist using the "evil" label to describe others because some have ascribed that label to me, without cause.

If I judge someone for being xtian, am I not as guilty as the ubiquitous "they" are for judging me? This is why I acknowledge my prejudice and work to fight it. It is wrong, in my opinion, to lump an entire group of people into one category and render a summary judgment.

It's a delicate balance, and to reach a level of attainment where I can love all and embrace all is my personal goal.

Needless to say, I have a long way to go.

>And they'll do it for the same basic reason that atheists will: the expectation you'll return the favor in the future.

Haha. That is a good point. A lot of them might just do it for the stupid manly desires to fix things (fixing things DOES feel really cool for some ridiculous reason) or show that they can do something their neighbor can't.

But that would be consistent in that I mean that the huge majority of Christians are just like everyone else, and aren't particularly concerned with renaming the Grand Canyon to Job's Wound, or something.