> knocks the nitwit running our country...

Relax, you're back in America now. He's only your president, he's not the king or anything

Thank you Amy
I appreciated the comments by both Harris and Dawkins. The problem isn't that people are crushingly stupid, as they certainly are, but more to the point, they simply lack good old fashioned guts. They do keep their mouths shut and go along. Dawkins comments are correct. As I've said many times before, this is the primary battle going on in the world today, the battle of science vs superstition. Why? Because religion and the world view that it engenders, forms the basis for decisions on just about everything in our lives.

The religious have prestidigitated a flowery dream world of their own fancy. They did this because the real world was just to harsh for the delicate sensibilties of miss Scarlett.
So off they go, like harvey and his rabbit, there really is no difference between the two. Only problem is 90% of this country has their big floppy rabbits walking next to them, telling them how to think.

So what would I propose? The separation of rabbit and state, oh fuck no. How can there be? The separation of delusion and state, why? The delusion needs to be seen for what is is, and then eradicated. There is no room in our world for the tolerance of delusion. First we need to separate it but then work to eradicate it, as it is nothing but insanity and the primary source of the problems the world has seen from its inception.
But will the 90% of the immature whiny children who need their big daddy Harvey looking over them go quietly? Do they ever.

People are crushingly lazy -- in the head.

My favorite line here is:
"Clearly, the commonplaces of language conceal the vacuity and strangeness of many of our beliefs."

I could apply that to any number of our presumptions, about religion, work, family, gender roles. We are too familiar with our own beliefs and institutions to see them clearly. Now here's an idea for a truly useful religion: one in which everyone spends a weekly "sabbath" taking a break from one's own beliefs, in order to see them better upon the return.

I agree with the gist of this article, but I think Dawkin's comment - "There are millions of intelligent atheists out there who are too frightened to come out and admit it" - is bullshit. Frightened? Really? Why? Are they going to be put in jail?

Any athiest who is frightened to say so isn't worth a crap to begin with.

> Any athiest who is frightened to say so isn't
> worth a crap to begin with.

Exactly. Hitchens recently said that having no belief about god is more annoying than having the the wrong belief.

Prager once said one of the three inexcusable misbehaviors of Judaism is denying your faith. If you someone asks if you're observant, you have to plainly say you are.

There's no reason this shouldn't apply to the doubters as well.

I notice that the zealous atheist proselytizers are identical to the zealous religious ones. Complete conformity the goal, and derivation from the official creed damned. The science is just a crutch to beat someone else over the head with.

Good observation, Eck.

Sure, both sides are passionate. The difference is, one side has passion for the truth; the other, passion to cling to the same old story.

Prager is an ass and his vile published irrationality about "the chosen people" was a powerful emetic. Speaking in a sonorous voice doesn't make you wise. It makes you...sonorous. He's also the second most boorish man I've ever been on TV with. What a shock that both believe in tooth fairies, uh, god. The other was Frank Pastorre, who was such a pig during my appearance with him that the staff of the show gathered around me to apologize, and later emailed me again to do the same.

Blimey,
Quite the little cafe society heroes aren't we?

Anyone here actually been personally tested on their atheism, as opposed to feeling socially awkward, a bit clueless wandering into a church in full session, or getting the evil eye from pious Aunt Clara?

Not at all sure I'd like to do lunch with Eck, but I agree with the distaste for flat out proselytizing. I am atheist to the core, and argumentative with it, but smarter, gutsier, less intellectually lazy and more admirable than those with faith? My, what easy medals we award ourselves.

While most of my friends are avowed atheists, I'm more inclined to live in the "spiritual" category, where I do believe in some type of higher power, but don't feel the need for directions from anyone else. So organized religion was never a compelling practice for me, despite my confirmation growing up as an Episcopalian.

But I do wonder what some atheists would really say when confronted with their own imminent demise. As a minister said famously during WWII -"you don't find any atheists in foxholes." Perhaps he was just giving out propaganda, but there might be some truth in that statement.

If someone asks if you're observant, you have to plainly say you are.

There's no reason this shouldn't apply to the doubters as well.
Why? Because you think so? Because someone else wants to know? Your beliefs are your own, you are not obliged to share them with others. Sharing is such a lefty liberal Judeao Christian ethic anyway, it has no place in market driven ideology.

"There are millions of intelligent atheists out there who are too frightened to come out and admit it" - is bullshit. Frightened? Really? Why? Are they going to be put in jail?

I remember when I told some classmates in 7th grade that I didn't think there was a god. It did not get a good reaction. There are worse places than jail, and, for me, Junior High School was one of them. Anyone who doesn't think that peer pressure is a very powerful force is living in a fantasy world themselves.

"There are worse places than jail, and, for me, Junior High School was one of them."
John O. goes on to further characterize his department-of-small-violins bad 7th grade experience as an out atheist as something to do with "peer pressure". So I assume we are not talking what we're usually talking about when we mention worse places than jail?
Time to fish out more of those gutsy atheist medals from the bottom of cereal packets!

John O. goes on to further characterize his department-of-small-violins bad 7th grade experience as an out atheist as something to do with "peer pressure".
Please.

I wasn't asking for any pity from you. I was merely using one of my own experiences to illustrate a point I was trying to make. The reasons why Junior High was awful for me I did not share with you, and had more to do with my shortcomings than society's. You need to lighten up. Sorry I can't spin out the obvious humor like your sidesplitting cereal packet jabs.

John O,
Genuine apology for any offence given. Obviously, I have no knowledge of the back story to your junior high misery but I did double check exactly what you wrote, exactly as it appeared in the context of other comments.
My light-hearted beef is with armchair atheists getting puffed up and righteous about Speaking the Truth to those apparently stupid yellow bellies who cling to faith.
To a modern-day Copernicus, I'd award medals galore.

I was never raised going to church, read Bertrand Russel voraciously at 13, refused to play Handel's Messiah at my high school Christmas concert and wrote an editorial in the school paper explaining why -- so I've got anti-organized religion bonafides out the ying-yang.

But I have to agree that some of the ardent atheist crowd can be as bad as the religious right. For me, I just don't want anyone else's irrational beliefs impacting my life, and I'll try to do the same. But there seem to be a lot of atheist fanatacist that, just like the extremists on the right, won't be happy until everyone thinks like them.

There's nothing wrong with irrational beliefs; I think they make this world a much more entertaining place. I am convinced, for example, that gravity has it out for me personally, as evidenced by the butter-side-down-dropped-toast effect. But I don't mind if others can't see it for the evil force it is.

Making sense is over-rated. Human beings obviously have an innate need for the religious experience, that floating-outside-your-body connectedness to something outside yourself, whether real or imagined. That's why we have loud rock music and the works of JS Bach, and make pilgrimmages to the Grand Canyon, and smoke dope. It's hardwired in us, for possibly obsolete survival reasons, but still nestled down in our genes.

It only alienates our fellow citizens, and probably causes them to dig their heels in deeper when you ridicule them for their beliefs; their beliefs aren't the problem. It's the boundaries of their beliefs that are the problem, and we need to get the conversation back around to the fact that America was founded on the ideal of complete separation of church and state, full stop.

The big problem is that these pious fascists on the right won't put any stop to the number of lies they are willing to tell to advance their agenda. It does no good to criticize their sincere (or professed) beliefs; all you can do is call them on their lies and their intentional misunderstanding of the Constitution, and work to get them voted out of office ASAP so we can return to a rational, peaceful, and prosperous America.

That's my 4 cents, anyway.

"Anyone who doesn't think that peer pressure is a very powerful force is living in a fantasy world themselves."

I had a similar experience when, by some mistake, my parents sent me to a christian summer camp. It was a week of bullying after I naively told them I didn't believe in god. On the last day they had a kind of "accept Jesus into your heart" service, and everyone was looking at me waiting for me to take the pledge. I was only 9 or so, but I didn't give in.

I'm not trying to give myself an "easy medal" here, because I think I did it out of stubborness rather than conviction, but after that nobody said anything to me about it. I guess they thought I was a lost cause - and they were right! :-)

Obviously, I have no knowledge of the back story to your junior high misery but I did double check exactly what you wrote, exactly as it appeared in the context of other comments.
My light-hearted beef is with armchair atheists getting puffed up and righteous about Speaking the Truth to those apparently stupid yellow bellies who cling to faith.
To a modern-day Copernicus, I'd award medals galore.

Apology not needed.
I agree with you, basically. Too many people puff themselves up with these crusades to convert people to their point of view. A cherished right of most people is the right to feel superior to others because of their beliefs. And exposure to others beliefs is quite useful when trying to define, decipher, discover your own.
One of my favorite guys on here is Crid, who I tend to disagree with at first, but he always has a cogent point of view that helps me to make sense of the world.
And I will add you to that (short) list, brother.
much respect.
PS.I am one deadpan sarcastic a-hole!

Hey Crid -

Hitch also famously called Mother Teresa "The Whore of Calcutta" in one of his books not too long ago, when she was still alive.

He makes compelling cases for atheism, but I think he pushes the point too far, often to his own detriment. Still like reading him, though.

> Why? Because you think so? Because someone else
> wants to know?

We have seen that religious matters, much like other interior traffic (such as sexual feeling), are often worth your LIFE. It'd be a real good idea for you to know what the F you're talking about, whichever side you're on. World War Four, just begun, is a cleanup operation against people who haven't got it straight yet.

> Your beliefs are your own, you are not obliged
> to share them with others.

Until someone points a pistol at your skull and asks.

> Sharing is such a lefty liberal Judeao
> Christian ethic anyway, it has no place
> in market driven ideology.

The day my ideology is directed by market forces, I'll be sure and give you a call.

> I think he pushes the point too far

Dmac, if you've read enough of the book to quote it exactly, you should be able to critique something besides violations of courtesy. Hitchens was right!

(I know this isn't the CH fan club, but did you ever notice that no one is able, or even inclined, to counter the specific claims of that book? It's always faulted for being so RUDE... But friends, real life is NOT cotillion. We draw blood, and we keep score.)

> I am atheist to the core, and argumentative
> with it, but smarter, gutsier, less
> intellectually lazy and more admirable
> than those with faith? My, what easy medals
> we award ourselves.

Exactly. Too many people are eager to pretend the matter is settled (and what a surprise: it settles to their benefit!).

Hey Crid -

I never said Hitchens was wrong or was behaving rudely - in fact, I think he showed a lot of balls writing that when she was still alive - that's why I mentioned it! He knew that that quote would become the lightning rod for criticism, and he took on all of his detractors, both on TV and in magazine articles.

Please understand - I LIKE the guy, and have found him interesting from his days at The Nation. The only mild complaint I have regarding his recent statements on religion is that he insinuates that many churchgoers are exactly the same as the "nutters." I find that completely over the top (as he sometimes is), and it dilutes his original argument.

Like our hostess, Hitchens takes the matter personally. They're right to do so. My heart is also Godless, though I was named for my grandaddy the Methodist minister... He used to take great pride in introducing me to the congregation on Sunday mornings.

As I ditto the idea that people do not like to think - and in fact, often do not know *how* to engage in reasoning - let me point out a pretty good resource for both learning and argument: Adherents.com .

Most of the faithful have enormous issues with the application of logic; they don't recognize it exists. In those cases, I recommend The Logical Fallacies. You will have to be patient. Most who are shown the site don't "get it". Thinking is not popular because it is hard work, and because ego, in its various manifestations, interferes. Ego - not the loud brachiation of the macho, but merely the natural first-person view, prevents the realization that any *belief* is merely part of the whole story in any issue. Belief is a mental "bookmark" to allow progress which omits many things.

This lack of awareness is not confined to religious argument. For instance: people claim that George Bush is stupid, and they then state that he is responsible - an exclusive term, BTW - for (insert complex offensive scenario here). The two claims are exclusive. A symptom of a problem is substituted for the problem itself because of the emotional satisfaction of "Bush-bashing". This is actually the same thing as adopting the emotionally-satisfying position that an invisible elf is watching over you: thinking is halted when a pleasing sensation is attained.

Your great enemy is not a fictional demon or an anonymous bureaucrat - it is your willful action to remain ignorant rather than endure the discomfort of awareness.

I dunno, Raddy... Most of the faithful would say they've had a supernatural experience that transcends logic. Logic is not the perfect tool for every occasion

"Making sense is over-rated."

Great line, Frank. I'll be pondering it for days now.

"Logic is not the perfect tool for every occasion"

This is another good one.

> religion is truly kept out of public life.
> Take public schools, for example, where you
> cannot wear a cross, a Jewish star, or a head
> scarf.

That doesn't SOLVE the problem, it ignores it. It's like precluding racism by excluding minorities: Whaddya know! It works!

Logic isn't the perfect tool for every occasion? That's merely because people are not logical, for the reasons I have (partially) cited. Emotions are so important that they are allowed to interfere in nearly every issue. The "supernatural" is fiction, but it's so comfortable!

Sexual preference, religous faith, and other emotional responses in people's lives aren't going to go away just because we find them distasteful

Crid, you can wear your turban and third eye at the private school for people with turbans and third eyes.

Regarding Frank's comment about making sense: Reason is an amazing tool for most occasions. I don't know how so many people live without it.

I've noticed a lot of people these days having quite a bit of trouble when you tell them their disparate ideas represent cognitive dissonance on their part. They either deny the term itself, or merely repeat their original canard.

Hmm, wonder what Mr. Harris means when he calls Dr. Francis Collins "nominally christian?"

I's curious about something, so I'd like to do a little survey: how many of the folks who are commenting here about their admiration for science and reason actually hold university degrees in philosophy or the sciences?

Enquiring minds, etc.

> the private school for people with turbans and
> third eyes

eh?

Gee, it sure got quiet here all of a sudden.