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Meet The Burqini
Muslim Women in New Zealand feel perfectly comfortable demanding society bend over to meet their primitive religious needs -- like the edict that Muslim women have to go around in pup tents. From The Dominion Post, the Kiwi Muslim women, like Muslim women in other western societies, say they must have "special pools where they can swim without compromising their religious beliefs." They currently are without special pools, and...

Because of this, many Muslim women had no opportunities to exercise and were putting on weight.

"They become medically unfit. Their health is affected and they're quite depressed."

What a bunch of crap. I don't go to a gym. I have an excercise bike in my home. Of course, I'd find it a little hard to exercise wearing a burqa, so I just throw on a pair of yoga pants and a bra and pedal (thanks, Kitt!) away. I find the suggestion that society should warp itself -- that tax dollars should go to meeting people's weird, unmodern religious needs -- akin to being invited over to somebody's house for dinner and demanding they cook an entirely different meal for you.

If your religious practices don't fit with a society -- perhaps you don't belong in that society. Freedom to practice one's religion is one thing, but this, like the Orthodox Jews demanding an "eruv" -- a line of fishing wire that could prove dangerous to the birds and may spoil the view for people, simply so the Orthodox Jews can do stuff on Sabbath -- is disgusting.

The difference is, I don't think you can find an Orthodox Jew (maybe there's one nutbag somewhere) who wants all the rest of us either dead or converted to Judaism. I still don't think society should be warped to meet people's imaginary needs. What if I have an imaginary husband, who drives an imaginary car, and I live in an area where there's permit parking. Should my imaginary husband get an extra parking pass?

On the bright side for the Muslim fundamentalists, until they can get us to bend to their will and build them their own swimming pools, there's now the "burqini" (photo at link) so Muslim women can maybe swim when other women do. Oops, but back to the article, there's the problem of naked rational people around them!

Martin Winkels, of the Wellington Regional Aquatic Centre at Kilbirnie, said the complex offered private spas and three family changing rooms for customers who may wish to bathe or change in private.

He knew of only one incident in which a brown-skinned man expressed his unhappiness at being in changing rooms where other men were standing undressed before or after going swimming.

Hey, it's the 21st century. There's no evidence of god, despite millions of sheep who believe in god, sans evidence, and far too many who believe their god commands them to convert or kill those who believe in other gods or who don't believe at all (like me). How pathetic that, in light of all the science we have, people are still bowing down to the imaginary and running their lives on it. How scary that it might lead to them murdering some or all of the rest of us. Don't think for a moment that the swimming pool demand is the last one they'll make on our society. Many want nothing less than Sharia law enacted on all of us.

link via men's news daily

Posted by aalkon at January 11, 2007 11:39 AM

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Comments

And as a previous thread attests, you don't need to get in a damn pool to get fit. Work out at home, wear whatever the hell you want.
And I really don't see why they don't build Muslim-only pools. Who else would want to swim in a sea of burquas?
I question how fit ANYONE can get, burqua-swimming.

Posted by: Cat brother at January 11, 2007 8:23 AM

I dunno, maybe it's a new form of weight-bearing exercise. Fall in the water with clothes on, it's serious work to move around.

I just hope people realize what's going on here: Little by little, certain Muslims seek to transform our society to fit their primitive religious needs. It's wrong when Orthodox Jews do it, too, as I mentioned above; but, in the long run, merely annoying, not dangerous.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 11, 2007 8:37 AM

I'm trying to picture Orthodox Jews trying to foist their ideals on society, and I'm just coming up with myself as a teenager, with random black-clad women demanding to see my report card, and telling me that I'll never get into medical school with those grades.
Also, waterboarding with chicken soup.

Posted by: Cat brother at January 11, 2007 9:21 AM

Amy, I thought of you today when I was reading this article over at Boing Boing:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2150217.html?menu=

Stamps for the Chinese New Year that taste of sweet-and-sour pork.

Guess the Muslims in China will have to choose other means to send their postage. What if you send a stamp like this to a devout Muslim? Can they not open the envelope?

Also: The nitpicker in me thinks you meant you "pedal" on your bike rather than "peddle," unless you're selling stuff while on it. Like swimming burqini.

Posted by: Kitt at January 11, 2007 10:03 AM

Also: The nitpicker in me thinks you meant you "pedal" on your bike rather than "peddle," unless you're selling stuff while on it. Like swimming burqini.

Sigh...us (post-) Jews...always selling something.

Quite right. This type of error happens more and more as my head gets crowded with data.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 11, 2007 10:15 AM

I don't know. I kinda like that burqini -- for days when I feel especially bloated, or don't want to shave my legs, or deal with my hair afterward, or apply sunscreen. I bet swimming in that thing would be some serious workout. Just running in it in the heat looks hard.

Posted by: AAA at January 11, 2007 10:53 AM

I don't know.... that burqini is a little TOO revealing... I mean, look how it clings to the body of those women. A man might get some bad ideas at that "exposed meat." Also, where's the mesh over the face? A truely devout woman would insist on nothing less than total coverage...

These people are crazy!

Posted by: Starfrox5253 at January 11, 2007 11:06 AM

It's true, those burqinis are very revealing! I saw an ankle! And I think I saw a few strands of hair, but I'm not sure - better get those women inside, just to be on the safe side!!!

Since men are supposed to be 'modest' too, why don't they wear those? I guess they like being exposed meat!

Posted by: Chris at January 11, 2007 11:41 AM

I kinda like that burqini -- for days when I feel especially bloated, or don't want to shave my legs

That must be some kinda leg hair you have. Do you wash, or do you just run a Roomba over your arms and legs?

And I think women have to wear them lest they be blamed for their own rape, among other reasons. Grrrr.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 11, 2007 11:59 AM

I still remember the day the Orthodox Jews ran wild...."Why can't you be a lawyer like that nice Florsheim boy? That girl you're dating, your granda Rachel, God rest her, would drop dead, you dating a shiksa like that. No, don't worry about me, I'll just stay home tonight.....alone...in the dark...."
It was a harrowing time.

Posted by: Cat brother at January 11, 2007 12:13 PM

Except for the headpieces, we already have the burkini in
the U.S. They're called "skins" and are available in your
local dive shop. They're worn by both sexes for warmth when
diving in only moderately warm water. Because they're so
smooth, they're also worn as wetsuit underware (makes getting
into a wetsuit easier).

Posted by: Ron at January 11, 2007 12:47 PM

New Zealand has a particular problem with endless, smug social policy meddling because of its tiny population (4 million).

Also, never go to NZ during the Olympics. They always do some crazy comparative per capita adjustment which makes it look as though they "really" won as many medals as China. Drives you mental!

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at January 11, 2007 1:01 PM

What the heck are "yoga pants"? Pants with primitive and irrational beliefs in chakras and suchlike?

Posted by: Stu "El Inglés" Harris at January 11, 2007 1:07 PM

Jody you still reading? Put up more comments about NZ, I gotta niece whose gonna spend six months there this year. Maybe next, she's a college-gradjee-atin' free spirit.

Posted by: Crid at January 11, 2007 3:56 PM

My take on this whole argument stems from the idea that the blame for weight gain may be blamed solely on the lack of segregated pools. A burkha and chador are worn only when there is a possiblity that men outside the immediate family unit may be able to view the woman. An exercise bike at home, a few Jane Fonda tapes, an infinity pool or a universal gym may all be enjoyed from the comfort of one's one home without the head coverings and robe. When did the pool outside the home become the prescribed method of exercise?

Posted by: bev at January 11, 2007 4:53 PM

I really don't care about fat, depressed Muslim women covered in black cloth.

Gary Becker asserted that irrational firms that discriminate on race in the hiring process are at a competitive disadvantage, because race is generally not a reliable indicator of any particular area of expertise or skill set. Okay, I don't think he looked at the percentage of engineering grads who're Asian, but still I like the idea that the market will leave behind the irrational and superstitious among us. I mean, could there possibly be anything more unprofitable than Muslim swimming pools? It's so insane.

Posted by: Lena at January 11, 2007 5:01 PM

He knew of only one incident in which a brown-skinned man expressed his unhappiness at being in changing rooms where other men were standing undressed before or after going swimming.

Most high school boys express similar unhappiness. We make 'em do it anyway.

Funny, the use of "brown-skinned," though. In New Zealand, that would most likely mean Maori rather than Arab, and certainly isn't evidence of religion.

Posted by: LYT at January 11, 2007 5:14 PM

could there possibly be anything more unprofitable than Muslim swimming pools?

Lena's comment indicates the solution to the swimming issue issue, right? The gold old free market. If there's such a demand for Burquini-only swimming pools, certainly some enterprising person would fill the need.

As far as Amy's larger point, I think it's pretty clear the fundamental line that needs to be drawn by the West:

Anybody is free to practice her choice of religion, but that freedom does not include the right to inflict the laws of that religion on others. If someone wishes to wear certain clothes, eat or not eat certain foods, etc. for religious purposes, that is his choice; however, he has no right to make that choice for others.

I know I must be totally naive, but this really seems simple to say, even for political leaders.

Posted by: justin case at January 11, 2007 6:34 PM

What the heck are "yoga pants"? Pants with primitive and irrational beliefs in chakras and suchlike?

You know I'm not that kind of girl! I nearly hit a girl over the head with my purse last night for going on about Feng Shui bullshit.

They're actually just really tight pants from VictoriasSecret.com (but without the ugly band of color):

http://www2.victoriassecret.com/commerce/application/prodDisplay/?namespace=productDisplay&origin=onlineProductDisplay.jsp&event=display&prnbr=XH-206835&cgname=OSKEYCLOZZZ&rfnbr=3055

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 11, 2007 7:24 PM

I'm all for helping free spirit nieces, Crid!

Anything I can do and all that...(I'm still well connected with that completely exasperating country).

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at January 11, 2007 7:28 PM

Yes, Justin, I love markets. I have them to thank for some pretty wonderful things in my life: pencils, laptops, toothbrushes, books, cups of coffee, carbonated drinks, Little Richard, conversations with handsome strangers, this blog, newspapers, nightclubs, french fries, and the occasional dick in my mouth. To name but a few.

I just don't see how something as dreary and dank as a Muslim swimming pool could survive in something as sexy and crackling as a market. And a ban is, frankly, creepy. And un-American, yes?

I am still waiting for the Paris Hilton/Britney Spears Middle East tour. The titties shall set them free.

Posted by: Lena at January 11, 2007 10:22 PM

Lena, I get your point. But for some reason, I currently associate the two blonde dimwits with a body part other than titties...

Posted by: jusin case at January 11, 2007 10:46 PM

Crid,

The poet Rupert Brooke once meanly observed that all NZ women dressed very badly and smoked too much. Part of that still holds true.

Stonkingly abrasive (and well written) essay on aspects of NZ meddlesome social policy which ruffled many kiwi feathers. (Located it by googling NZ and Dalrymple.)
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:8jcenkFu3xIJ:www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm%3Ffrm%3D4438%26sec_id%3D4438+dalrymple+new+zealand+article&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at January 12, 2007 4:53 AM

>>They're actually just really tight pants...


Oh yes. Those iliac crest dimples are.... er, admirable.


Feng Shui may be the biggest bullshit of all, but yoga, with its claim that the human ageing process is imaginary, is right up there...

Posted by: Stu "El Inglés" Harris at January 12, 2007 8:35 AM

I loves me some Dalrymple... He's *really* cranky.

Posted by: Crid at January 12, 2007 9:34 AM

Thanks for reminding me...me, too. Will post something of his in the next few days.

I see yoga as a form of exercise, one that bores the crap out of me and makes me want to beat some smug yoga asshole to death with their lavender yoga mat.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 12, 2007 10:49 AM

I find it troubling that your writing is informed by and perpetrates the harmful generalization that any person who is Islamic "wants all the rest of us either dead or converted."

Posted by: dfox at January 12, 2007 8:23 PM

Read more carefully, and you'll get what I say: It's not EVERY person who's Islamic, but quite a few. And therein lies the difference. Is there maybe one mentally ill Orthodox Jew going around murdering people in the name of religion? Maybe? Or one or two Christians? Come on, be honest. Christians had their times of murdering those who didn't think like they did. Thankfully, they've moved on.

What you should find most troubling is the Islamic threat to free, western democracies. Not to worry, I can wait. When the Muslims come to your door to slit the throat of "the infidel," you can send an e-mail that I was right about the danger...right before you bleed out.

Wake up little lefty!

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 13, 2007 12:32 AM

Well shucks, I sure hope you can save us before them scary Mussle-whats convert us all to Islam with their suicide bomber swimming pools. You have got to be kidding me. Completely ignoring the actual issue of whether private baths should be built - how can you honestly believe that providing swimming pools will take us on a path ending in a mass conversion to Islam and/or throat-slitting? While you think, let me tell you why you are ignorant:

Most of the Muslim world doesn't live governed by the Shar'ia - Iran, and to a lesser extent Saudi Arabia, being the only states to actually implement it. So why exactly would "the Muslims" want to create an Islamic state for a culture and people that want it even less (this is of course after they invade and slit all the dissenters' throats)?

Do you know why people like bin Laden and suicide bombers are called Islamic extremists? Because they are at the extreme end of a peaceful and selfless religion. Most Muslims have no interest in converting Christians or killing them and thus don't pose a "threat to free, western democracies." Most of them care about converting us into Muslims about as much as I care about turning the Dalai Lama into an atheist.

Also, the burqini-sporting, private-bathing Muslim public is not that large. Burqas are actually hard to find in many Muslim countries and I've even seen Muslims in real BIKINIS *gasp*. So, although they'll probably be planning the invasion IN these private baths, don't worry, they just won't have the manpower to bring us all down.

Posted by: esmitty at January 17, 2007 2:56 AM

Um, because you believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky watching over you and telling you what to do doesn't mean you're entitled to tax dollars for private swimming pools.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at January 17, 2007 3:23 AM

I actually agree with you on that issue, but that's not what I was talking about, which I thought I made clear by saying,"Completely ignoring the actual issue of whether private baths should be built". I was trying to focus on your irrational fear of the Muslim hordes and complete ignorance in regards to the Muslim community. Saying that most Muslims want to go around slitting our throats and forcing us to accept Islam is horrifically offensive and completely untrue. I doubt you think of yourself as a racist person, but espousing nonsense like that makes you sound like one.

Posted by: esmitty at January 17, 2007 8:55 AM

Big whoopty woo. I agree completely with this blog! Sure, I doubt ALL Muslims want to slit our throats, but... I have a hell of a hard time respecting a religion where woman are considered second class citizens! The notion of God is crazy in itself! But for the sake of argument... What kind of God would allow the treatment of other humans like the Muslims (even Christians) do! All evidence suggests that 'God' doesn't seem to believe in basic human rights.

Posted by: Valerie at January 17, 2007 11:23 AM

Big whoopty woo. I agree completely with this blog! Sure, I doubt ALL Muslims want to slit our throats, but... I have a hell of a hard time respecting a religion where woman are considered second class citizens! The notion of God is crazy in itself! But for the sake of argument... What kind of God would allow the treatment of other humans like the Muslims (even Christians) do! All evidence suggests that 'God' doesn't seem to believe in basic human rights.

Posted by: Valerie at January 17, 2007 11:54 AM

i dont know what the hell is wrong with you ignorant idiots. Has the creator of the burqini designed this for everyone at the beach to wear? no, it was designed for muslim women who CHOOSE to wear it when they go to the beach, if you think that it would be forced by their husbands then you are wrong, those pathetic men that do force things upon their wives (from both islam, the west and the east) would be too busy trying to keep their women locked up inside than have the thought to take his wife to the beach with him. you people want muslims to assimilate into the western culture more, so they find a way to do so and you make fun of them? its catch 22, they cant win either way. whether you agree the religion is irrelevant, its their choice. it should make no difference to you, maybe you could spend some of your time ( youve obviously got a lot considering the rubbish you have come up with here) to read about this religion that you are making fun of and get your facts straight. and im sorry, but how intelligent do you have to be to be able to make the distinction between what various religions teach and the acts commited by so called 'followers' of these religions.

Posted by: Nadia at January 20, 2007 1:40 AM

I find a lot of these comments to be very ignorant and ethnocentric. Everyone has a right to practice their own religion. Just because you don't understand it or agree with it doesn't make it wrong. This Muslimophobia is nothing short of ridiculous. A handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of Islam, just like a handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of IRA, KKK and many other fringe groups. It doesn't warrant wholesale ridicule or discrimination against a whole race, religion or culture. Leave the Muslim women to their burqinis. If they're happy, it's their own business. What is it to you if they can't swim 100m in world record time?

Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 12:49 PM

I had to laugh at the comment about Islam infiltrating countries and slowly taking over with their Muslim practices being introduced covertly....kinda reminds me of McDonald's, Coca-cola and rap music! Hahahahaha. Half the world has been Americanised. The other half is Muslim. I'm beginning to see your problem.

Seriously, everyone has a right to practice their own religion. Just because you don't understand it or agree with it doesn't make it wrong. This Muslimophobia is nothing short of ridiculous. A handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of Islam, just like a handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of the IRA, the KKK and democracy. It doesn't warrant wholesale ridicule or discrimination against an entire race, religion or culture. Leave the Muslim women to their burqinis. If they're happy, it's their own business. What is it to you if they can't swim 100m in world record time?

You don't like burqinis. I don't like gangsta fashion or kids wearing their caps backwards. Tomayto, tomarto, get over it.


Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 1:05 PM

"Um, because you believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky watching over you and telling you what to do doesn't mean you're entitled to tax dollars for private swimming pools".

And because you believe, without evidence, that there's a "big" man in the whitehouse watching over you doesn't mean you're entitled to tax dollars buying bombs and bullets and killing thousands of foreign civilians while people in your own country are going without education, healthcare and employment. It's a matter of global perspective, I suppose?

Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 1:12 PM

Astrology buffs don't blow up airplanes and buildings in the name of their ridiculous belief. Everyone does NOT have a right to "practice their own religion" if it leads to the murder of other people.

Your last comment is short on logic...doesn't really work for the purpose you're trying to make it work for.

P.S. I wasn't for going into Iraq, and I voted for the lameass idiot Kerry, although I'm not a Democrat and loathed him with about every ounce of my being.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 3, 2007 1:47 PM

Ridiculous beliefs? You believe in truth, justice and the American way? You believe that drag queen meets Dracula look is working for you? You believe it's ok to dress miniature dogs in clown collars and palm tree ponytails? *shrug* Each to their own brand of ridiculous I guess.
Timothy McVey wasn't a Muslim. He was an American citizen. Kinda proves you don't have to believe in burqinis to wanna blow something up. You just have to believe that you are right and "THEY" are wrong and want to have people pay attention to you. Now who could hold a ridiculous belief like that?

You Americans bleat on about freedom of speech and you think it's ok to say whatever you want and insult whomever you want and live however you want and believe whatever you want because you're "free" and it's a "democracy". Perhaps you could afford Muslim women the same courtesy that you consider your right and let them wear their burqinis in peace. It is a huge leap from covering your modesty with a burqini to killing people who don't share your beliefs. I think you need to review your own concept of the ridiculous.

Posted by: Imelda at February 4, 2007 6:52 AM

PS. You don't need to believe in religion to want to kill people. How many people are killed or injured each year in America due to guns? Oh, but hang on, there's another ridiculous belief, that everyone has the right to bear arms. Sorry, it's not a ridiculous belief, it's a "constitutional right". Here's the thing Amy, some nutbags own guns. That doesn't mean every gun owner is a nutbag.

Muslims don't blow up aeroplanes and buildings. Terrorists blow up aeroplanes and buildings. But not every Muslim is a terrorist. If you can't tell the difference between practising religion and practising terrorism, then you have a problem.

Sorry Amy, I think my logic is working a bit better for me than yours.

Posted by: Imelda at February 4, 2007 7:27 AM

We have freedom of speech, meaning I can criticize Muslim women for wearing burquinis and they can criticize me for looking like Western "hoor." That's part of a free and open society. Clearly, you'd be much happier in Saudi Arabia. I'm hoping to prevent our society from becoming Saudi Arabia. Smaller countries in Europe (and then New Zealand) are already well on their way.

There's one Tim McVeigh...and maybe about five other nuts, and lots of Muslims who want us dead or converted. It isn't (any longer) part of the Christian religion to kill the infidels. Too many Muslims are living in the middle ages.

You believe that drag queen meets Dracula look is working for you?

Not surprised you're a hypocrite...and kind of a rude cunt to boot.

You believe it's ok to dress miniature dogs in clown collars and palm tree ponytails?

I don't think it will kill 3,000 people five blocks from my old New York City apartment, and lead to dead NYC firefighters, and lots of my old neighbors with respiratory problems, do you?

Of course every Muslim isn't a terrorist, but far too many are, and there's far too much preaching in big mosques about killing the infidel. KILLING us. As I posted in today's entry, could you imagine if a pastor at St. John The Divine in NYC stood up and said Muslims should be murdered or converted? This happens every day in mosques.

Sorry, but where's the outrage about the Muslims preaching killing? Your logic is working a bitter better for you than mine? My way of life entails libertarian philosphy -- my right to punch you in the nose ends where your nose begins. As for your philosphy, well, you sould like somebody who should be wiretapped by the people looking for people who want the rest of us dead.

I'm against restrictive religion of any kind. But, Christians who see me posting against their god belief manage to respond without attacking my looks and defending murderers. How odd and creepy that you see more reason to attack me than to attack Muslims not only hot on killing us infidels but their own. Where's the outrage when there's Muslim on Muslim violence? Muslims sure can work up a frenzy when somebody draws a couple of cartoons criticizing their religion: again, part of free and open western society.

Again, I believe there are planes to the primitive republic of Saudi Arabia departing daily. There, I think you'd be much more comfortable...not being allowed to drive, or allowed many rights at all. Is this shitty? Sure it is. But, it has nothing to do with my dog wearing a sweater.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 4, 2007 7:51 AM

"Of course every Muslim isn't a terrorist, but far too many are, and there's far too much preaching in big mosques about killing the infidel."

You better get your facts straight. Muslims are people who embrace Islam. Islam is a way of life for Muslims. If you don't know about Islam, don't talk about it despite your so-called freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is for those who know what they're talking about, not a load of bollocks.

So Christian nuns can dress up modestly without being criticized and Muslims are for the same reason? I mean stop being prejudice, Amy. Don't judge people for being devout believers to their religion. And OBVIOUSLY, it has nothing to do with being terrorists. You might wanna look that up for it is not related to being a Muslim and Islam does not teach such teachings. I mean seriously, for a writer, you gotta be more diverse than that.

I personally know many Muslims and they can be downright nice people without an inkling of terrorism in them. Your allegations are a disgrace. Your shallow thinking embarasses me even though we're of a kind. So this time, take MY ADVICE and go look up Islam. Don't get me wrong... not terrorists okay, ISLAM. If that doesn't cut it, you should've watched that segment on Oprah of the misconception on Muslims.

Besides, I believe burqinis are made just to allow Muslim women to swim in public, not to win swimming competitions.

Posted by: Rose at February 4, 2007 10:31 PM

So Christian nuns can dress up modestly without being criticized and Muslims are for the same reason?

Um, this is an equal opportunity site when it comes to criticizing bullshit belief in god and what it leads to. This entry just happens to be about Muslim bullshit belief in god, not Christian belief in god. There are many more of those entries on this site than there are Muslim entries. Here, let me help you, here's the big difference: Christians think I'm an asshole for criticizing their beliefs and will tell me so. There are a handful of Christians in the world perpetrating acts of terror. Tim McVeigh, about five Earth Liberation Front people, and two Christians blowing up abortion clinics. Christians do not have churches devoted to telling Christians to kill the infidel. They didn't blow up the WTC.

Sure, there are Muslims who aren't like this. And guess what? If you don't speak up against the other kind, you're accessories to murder.

And enough with women being kept down by religion already? Having imams saying it's okay to beat them, having honor killings, having women in Iraq get totally fucked out of property when relatives are killed (in a war I do not and did not support, and have spoken out against from the start).

Where are you in outrage on that? Oh, sorry, were you too busy being outraged about a handful of cartoons criticizing Islam? You should be criticizing Muslims far louder than I am. But, instead, you're upset that I don't like women in burqinis any more than I like any sort of garment that covers women's bodies like it's a crime for them to walk around without coverage. Oops, and it is a crime against Islam, isn't it?

Again, where's your outrage about the WTC? Fuck you.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 5, 2007 1:59 AM

And you wonder why the Los Angeles Times doesn't want to publish you?

Posted by: Imelda at February 5, 2007 4:44 AM

PS. Amy. The rest of the world is sick to the back teeth of hearing about 9/11.

Other countries have lived with terrorist attacks for decades. Take Ireland, England and the IRA for example. Did they get neurotic and hysterical and change the face of world security impinging on the human rights and freedoms of every other country forever more? No, they did not. They got on with the job of living their lives.

9/11 was sad. It was tragic. It was outrageous. And I had every bit of sympathy for the people involved at the time. But life goes on. It has to. If you can't move on, the terrorists have won and you might as well curl up in the foetal position now and never leave your house again.

Posted by: Imelda at February 5, 2007 4:55 AM

Actually, I retract that. I can't speak for the rest of the world. >>I

Hundreds of thousands of people have died since in floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. Boxing day, Ache Indonesia for example. Florida, cyclone Katrina for example.

The lives that were lost there were not any less valuable than those lost on 9/11. The people are still dead, whether they died at the hands of mother nature, human error or terrorists. We mourn the dead and we move on. That's how it works.

Some 16,000 people were murdered in the USA last year. Nearly 89,000 people were forcibly raped. Where is your outrage over those victims? Is it only outrageous if the crime is not committed by an American? Or is it that those crimes didn't occur with the Hollywood Blockbuster dramatics of 9/11?

Murder is murder. Any murder is outrageous, not just those allegedly committed by Muslim extremists.

Bah. I'm tired of you.

Posted by: Imelda at February 5, 2007 5:10 AM

And you wonder why the Los Angeles Times doesn't want to publish you?

Actually, I wonder why you've done such a study of me. You know so much about me...that I take Ritalin, etc. Perhaps that the polyamory people attacked my looks...like you needed to get under my skin to attack back. When I shouldn't be the target at all. I'm just a chick with big breasts and bad language who doesn't like religion.

And I really don't wonder why the LA Times doesn't publish my column. It isn't for a good reason, but it's not important to this discussion. It's a straw man you bring in because you have no defense for people who use your religion as a reason to murder people who don't share their beliefs.

And for a person who's "tired" of me and has repeatedly said it's her last post, you seem awful interested in me.

PS Did you donate money to the victims of the tsunami? To the victims of Katrina? I did.

Again, all straw men. You're a member of a religion that has far too many members that use it as an excuse to subjugate women, kill women, kill homosexuals, and kill others who don't think as you do. That's backward, primitive, and disgusting, as are your attempts to find what you perceive to be my weak spots. Really a pathetic attempt when you could be fighting against murderous Muslims like I am.

Religion Of Peace, my ass.

Oh yeah...and one more thing...about all those other murders and tragedies...they're one-time things. Since Islam has a number of people that condone (and even encourage) murder as part of the religion, we have a whole set of people who are likely to be offenders, or repeat offenders, who must be stopped.

What's most shocking is how hard you're working to find straw men. Why not just admit that a number of members of your religion are backward, primitive, and condone murder as part of the religion, and then seek to do something about it?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 5, 2007 8:01 AM

This post will be a guideline towards what atheists believe in a nutshell. They are called The 10 Commandments of Atheists:

1. Thou shall not believe all thou art told.
2. Thou shall seek knowledge and truth constantly.
3. Thou shall educate thy fellow man and woman in the Laws of Science.
4. Thou shall not forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.
5. Thou shall leave valuable contributions for future generations.
6. Thou shall live in peace with thy fellow man and woman.
7. Thou shall live this one life thou hast to its fullest.
8. Thou shall follow a personal code of ethics.
9. Thou shall maintain a strict separation of church and state.
10. Thou shall support those who follow these commandments.

(courtesy of the www.EthicalAtheist.com)

Now why does Islam (or any other faith based organized systems of superstition) conflict with these ideas? Can anyone elaborate? I have no problem with women who want to wear a burqini. Voluntarily. But also, expect it to be questioned, jeered, mocked, misunderstood and look upon it with deep suspicion in the West. Would any Middle Eastern nation respect the wishes and desires of a modern Western women living in the area? I'm afraid not. Just ask any female military personel stationed in Saudi Arabia during the 1990s. Where I come from, respect goes both ways.

Posted by: Joe at February 5, 2007 2:19 PM

Like I’ve said before in another post. If one removed the problems of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the badly informed US Middle East foreign policy disasters. The Middle East would still be a problem. Perhaps a less intense one. All 22 Middle Eastern nations' combined GDP doesn't even come close to Spain's. Even with the oil rich nations. Why? Oppressive corrupt governments? Islam? The cultural baggage attached to Islam? All the above.

I’ve actually read a newspaper in Saudi Arabia with a headline: “JEWS PLAN TO TAKE MEDINA”. Hmmm, what’s their source? Nothing like having a ’headsman’ come to your son or daughter’s school for career day. What is a headsman? Someone whose career choice is the cutting off someone’s head for capital crimes in certain nations of the Middle East. At least in the cruel barbaric US we have lethal injection for our criminals. Twenty years is the average to kill a criminal on death row in the US. Plus all the free attorneys for appeals, DNA tests, college and university tuition. All at the tax payers' expense. Less than 20 seconds in Saudi Arabia for their criminals and hope it is a clean chop and the head drops in the basket. Imshallah.

All through recorded history, the forces of modernity couldn't be stopped or destroyed. Delayed in some cases, but never eliminated from the historical narrative. One of the most fundamental fear of the Middle East is their culture and civilization is on the out. What I mean is the literal interpretation of Islam. This notion is often painful and humiliating and the primary source of the rage. The Middle East is going through the growing pains that Europe went through 500 years ago. The problem is the opposing forces of change within the Middle East will try to get access to weapons that could destroy a single city while trying to build The World Caliphate dream on Earth. What was the state of art weapon 500 years ago? Simple versions of the black powder cannons and firearms. A huge difference from our modern counterparts. The stakes much higher for the global village. Not all sectarian violence is local. Not anymore.

These growing pains were delayed by the self indulgent behavior of the UK and France after defeating the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Carving up the Middle East, installing puppet monarchs and exploiting the areas natural resources. Similar policies continued after WWII by the US for the sake of winning the Cold War at all costs. I can understand the Middle East’s group paranoia towards the West. It's 2007 and time to grow up if you want to eat at the adult's table.

What would be the solution? The neocons version of democratizing the Middle East through force? Hell no. Anyone who has ever spoken to an Arab or visited the Middle East would know that would be impossible. If the Middle East wants democracy they will have to implement it themselves.

My personal view would be that individual nations will have to imitate the successes of ‘enlighten despots’ like Mustafa Kemal Atatürk of Turkey, Habib Bourguiba of Tunisia, Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore and the government model of Malaysia. All of them forced reforms through the use of gentle persuasion with the end of a rifle and bayonet. Arrest the troublesome Muslim fundies and give them long prison sentences and in some cases execute them as examples to the rest. These nations have strong strains of secularism and modernity without losing their national identities to foreign outsiders. Of course the individual Middle Eastern nations could institute these reforms with their own unique regional interpretations.

So what does Imelda and others critical towards Amy’s view have to offer besides the old lefty canard that the US is the sole source of evil in the world? Come on, make your gray matter sweat a little and come up with something original. This is the battle of ideas. Please try to contribute, if you can. Do you want to sit at the adult's table too?

So as a freethinking, godless infidel. I am not going to live my life as an involuntary minor participant in the nightmare world of Osama bin Laden and his merry band of psychos who want to recreate the 7th Century in the 21st Century. That also includes the US version of the Taliban. We call them Christian Reconstructionists or Dominionists. They make Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberts look like a secular same sex couple from San Francisco. Scary? I mean both images.

Not all opinions, ideas, views, comments and CULTURES are equal and valid. Now does that mean one culture is superior to another? No. It means one or other similar cultures can deliever the needs of its people better and has a valued interest in trying to maintain the dignity of its people. No system is perfect, but it is a work in progress. Gee, someone committng a the political incorrect thought crime of making a value judgment. Call out the Ministry of Love.

There are more pressing problems in the world than a group of individuals making strong, well thought out, offensive views known to the general public.

Posted by: Joe at February 5, 2007 3:17 PM

"Where are you in outrage on that? Oh, sorry, were you too busy being outraged about a handful of cartoons criticizing Islam? You should be criticizing Muslims far louder than I am. But, instead, you're upset that I don't like women in burqinis any more than I like any sort of garment that covers women's bodies like it's a crime for them to walk around without coverage. Oops, and it is a crime against Islam, isn't it?"

I'm not outraged about cartoons criticizing Islam, that's just cartoonists making jokes out of their ass not their brains, nor am I upset over Muslim women and their burqinis.

I'm just concerned with your association of Muslims in the Middle Eastern countries where some Muslims do not practice the true teachings of Islam. Who says "Having imams saying it's okay to beat them, having honor killings, having women in Iraq get totally fucked out of property when relatives are killed..." is Islam? I would just like to point out that that is NOT Islam. I can assure you that no religion preaches anything as wrong as that.

And that is just the point. Like how the Americans killed more than 500,000 innocent children in Iraq-- it's not all the Americans. It's just dumb ass Bush anda few others. Living in Asia, where the population of Muslims are pretty high, I haven't had any problems encountering Muslims. They are just normal people like you and me, some maybe uphold their religion better than others.

I just hope you stop associating terrorism and Islam/Muslim. As a writer, you should be socially responsible of what you write and educate minds, not by being prejudice.

Posted by: Rose at February 6, 2007 12:48 AM

Rose,

But Islam is earning the international reputation of being the religion with World's Biggest Chip on its shoulder. The main problem with my complaint would be the moderates and the secularists within Islam are no where to be found. Or they are hiding. Or they are vocal on th 'discrimination' done by western governments. They are shocked, shocked, that Muslims are receiving special attention by law enforcement and intelligence agencies. There are reasons or 'probable cause' behind this kind of treatment. Didn't UK authorities arrest suspects in the most recent terror plot of kidnapping of a UK soldier so they could behead him and make a video for the world wide web? What will be the excuse this time from certain Muslim groups? They were set up? Persecution complex? Historic Discrimination Rage Syndrome? (not yet added to the manual of psych disorders, but similar to Slave Rage syndrome)

The other main problem with the Middle East is where's the Gandhi for Islam? One doesn't exist, because there is a historical record of violence associated with the revelation of the words of Allah through the prophet Mohammed. This is quite common among other faiths. All of them had periods of extreme violence behind their development and expansions. Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity all had violent pasts. What stopped or contained the patterns of violence? A strong presence of secularism and the embrace of modernity. Do they still have violent fringe groups? Yes, but the moderates are not quiet about it. In certain cases not enough. (i.e. American mainstream Christians not actively condemning the doomsday, evangelical, dispensationalist, dominionist, christian reconstructionists brothers and sisters)

Noticing a pattern?

Just like I have written in previous posts. The stakes are much greater than 500 years ago. The problem with Islam is its LITERAL interpretation of the Koran by a vast majority of both nonviolent and the violent minority of the faithful. The passivity and silences of the nonviolent members who will not actively police their own ranks. Why? If moderate elements start questioning various passages of the Koran? Does this mean Allah should be questioned? Is it heresy? Should we not kill the moderate elements? Where do these questions come from? Answer... The application of the literal interpretation of the revelation of Allah through the words of the prophet Mohammed.

Like I have said before: Do you not see a pattern???

The US had its fair share of religious violence. Back in the 1990s there were a rash of bombings, shootings and death threats at various abortion clinics caused by a small violent fringe within the Pro-Life movement. What ended this? The FBI's investigations-arrests of the responsible parties-prosecutions-convictions. Especially, in the execution (2003) of Paul Hill, the leader this extremist group for the shooting death of a clinic doctor in 1994. The arrest and prosecution of Eric Rudolph for the Olympic Park and abortion clinic bombings in 1996. Also, the nonviolent Pro-Life movements separated themselves and publicly condemned the violent factions. Some even informed on them for the FBI. Muslim extremists are not the only target of the FBI. There are paramilitary patriot movements, Animal Liberation Front, Earth Liberation Front, Neo-Nazis, KKK and other VIOLENT fringe groups on the list.

The removal of Hussein unleashed a blood feud that was centuries in the making. Yes, Washington DC is solely responsible. Just like World War I dictated the pace of the 20th Century. The US led military incursion of Iraq in March, 2003 will dictate the pace of the 21 Century. Unfortunately. Yes, we (America and others) are responsible for this and we will paying for it for a very long time. Both in blood and money.

In the year 2099, the world's problems will have its origins from the misguided and ignorant decisions that came out of Washington DC in March, 2003. Just like a nameless Serbian killing an Austrian archduke and his wife in 1914.

Too many of my fellow Americans will be denial about this notion and at a tremendous cost for future generations. But the difference with me is that I will not go into a bunker-siege mentality. Also, as an American I will actively pursue and support reforms in my nation's government. Especially, on certain Christian groups that want the Middle East to become more unstable. Why? They believe it will fulfill the delusional prophecy of the Second Coming of Jesus. So we do have our own religious nut bags in the US. Instead of being violent... they want to use and manipulated the political mechanisms to cause the fulfillment of biblical prophecies in the Bible. Scary? Just as irrational as the Muslim extremists.

For anyone interested in the teachings of the theocratic-right in the US? Visit this site:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Or the 'infiltration of the government' story of a certain school where most of the White House interns are from and it’s not Harvard, Yale or Princeton. Yes, interns do not have political power, but are the eyes and ears for the theocratic-right political/religious leaders. Also future political careers need a start.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0421-09.htm

Posted by: Joe at February 6, 2007 8:07 AM

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