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Just Because The Child's On A Leash
Doesn't mean she won't bite you.

childonleash.jpg

This particular child actually seemed quite well-behaved. But, more parents -- especially the "parent" who ignored her tantrum-throwing child at a cafe I went to this weekend -- should put their children on leashes, muzzle them, give them flea baths, and leave them tied to parking meters.

Okay, I'm kidding about the flea baths. But, in lieu of treating children like dogs, perhaps more parents could treat them like children, and...actually parent them?

Posted by aalkon at February 27, 2007 3:10 PM

Comments

If they truly ignored the tantrum, more power to them! Ignoring a tantrum is the best and only way to deal with it. The last thing in the world a parent should do is give in to whatever the kids wants just to save themselves public embarrassment - else the kid will throw another tantrum, and another, and another...

Our oldest threw a very public tantrum when he was about 3. We gritted our teeth, walked away and left him pounding the floor all by himself. It looked terrible (or we thought it did), but a few minutes later he got scared, ran to catch up, and never ever threw another tantrum.

Posted by: Brad Richards at February 27, 2007 3:28 AM

Brad, your form of parenting is totally rude to other people who do not go out to a public place to be disturbed by a brat. This kid I'm talking about threw two tantrums in the period of a half an hour, disturbing everyone in the place. This woman was a terrible mother. In addition to throwing a tantrum, he stood on the chair, kneeled on the table, and made plenty of noise.

When we were kids, we didn't throw tantrums. We were raised to know that just wasn't done. Period. Also, my parents raised us to never be loud in a public place, kick somebody's seat in the movies, or otherwise be inconsiderate of the peace, quiet, and sanity of others.

Giving a kid boundaries is being a good parent, not letting a kid have his bratitude, and certainly not in a public place where others are forced to be part of it. What of them? Do they get to have a repeat of their afternoon someday, without your brat howling in it?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 4:41 AM

Oh, P.S. During the kid's second tantrum, he was in danger of knocking over either a huge statue or a cup of hot coffee on a nearby table on himself. (He was throwing himself against the wall behind the statue.) I went over and held the statue, as even a kid of bad parents doesn't deserve to be hurt or maimed because of it. The mother was outside talking on her cell (the cafe doesn't allow cell phones, but has yet to ban children). The grandmother stood by while I held the statue, saying, "His mother needs to come get him." Yeah, lady, no kidding.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 5:10 AM

"Brad, your form of parenting is totally rude to other people who do not go out to a public place to be disturbed by a brat."

Amy,
When you last watched "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" did you maybe think the child-catcher was the film's hero?

(As opposed to Drip Van Dyke, I mean.)

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 27, 2007 5:39 AM

You know, I think I never saw that movie. Either that, or I don't remember it. But, a child-catcher sounds like a great idea. A bad parent preventer sounds even better, if only somebody would invent one. The problem with birth control is getting would-be (or accidental) parents to use it.

P.S. Brad -- if you're going to use the ignore tactic in a private home, fine. In public, it would be nice if parents or "parents" took their brat out to their car and shut them in the back seat to let them tantrum it out.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 5:52 AM

I do not subscribe to the "when we get home, you are gonna pick a switch" method, but when my son gets out of line in the store or talks loud in the movies, all we have to do is ask him if he wants a "major punishment"...that shuts him up almost every time. (He knows we will follow through.)

In those few cases where it has not, and he has thrown a full blown out tantrum, the first thing we do is get him out of there. Yes it is embarrassing, but more importantly, nobody else should be subjected to his bad behavior. When we get home, he gets to clean the bathrooms and the floors throughout the house by hand. Gives him LOTS of time to think...

Posted by: André-Tascha at February 27, 2007 6:08 AM

Right on, André.

We knew there would be consequences for bad behavior. My parents didn't negotiate with us. They gave us orders and we obeyed them. I don't ever remember my littlest sister (5 years younger than I am) getting loud in a public place. It was clear it would just be a really, really bad idea.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 6:16 AM

Just wondering, Brad, what your political persuasion is. I'm guessing you're not a libertarian?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 6:17 AM

Hi Amy,

Actually, I'm very much a libertarian.

As to the incident I described: yes, we felt bad that other people had to hear the tantrum. On the other hand, it was over in about 30 seconds, and he *never* threw another tantrum. Which was the point.

Bad parenting is - in my view - the people who respond to a tantrum to avoid public embarrassment. Their kids learn that they can blackmail the parents, and repeat performances are guaranteed.

Cheers,

Brad

Posted by: Brad Richards at February 27, 2007 6:32 AM

30 seconds, huh? I'm guessing this is one of those "objects in this mirror..." situations.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 7:09 AM

Eh?

Posted by: Crid at February 27, 2007 7:59 AM

"We knew there would be consequences for bad behavior. My parents didn't negotiate with us. They gave us orders and we obeyed them".

What cheerily confuses me, Amy - is why on earth you ever trembled in your dear little booties about these "consequences" since you never actually experienced them on account of how you were so perfectly behaved as a tot?

(Sorry for asking. Mightily refreshed after a west coast trip so feeling less timid than usual!)

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 27, 2007 8:11 AM

One of the perils of public places is the presence of other people. Sometimes those people are rude, or loud, or, heaven forfend- children who act like children. If you really can't deal with your fellow humans, join a private club that keeps the riffraff out.

You keep on about how when you were a perfect child, it just wasn't "done," yet as a fully grown adult you're throwing your own tantrum every time you have to witness something as trivial as a child acting up. There are millions of children, and no matter how well behaved the majority of them are, chances are still very good you're going to have to tolerate an ill-behaved one now and then. There's a reason we call them children and not "miniature adults."

Posted by: Charlie at February 27, 2007 8:50 AM

I can say I see both sides of the coin - let met break it down as fairly as I can.

Brad - Yes, giving into a child's wanton, asshole wishes is the singularly worst thing you can do. By giving into the child, either at home to avoid the raucous or in public to avoid the embarrassment, you are guaranteed more tantrums will follow. Agreed. That said, I might have approached your situation the same way. If you follow through on punishments, and yet the threat of punishment doesn't work, then maybe walking away and letting him have it out with the dirty floor was the best way to end the behavior. If this was the only time this happened, then, as a childless-woman who loathes screaming children, I'd be understanding and respect the difficulty in raising children. It's not a perfect science, and I realize that there's no perfect solution to correct behavior. Maybe we can pull in some information from the other day's blog: maybe some children are just wired to be dicks their whole lives and no amount of help from Nanny 911 would do the trick.

On the other hand, I am with Amy - she isn't talking about a quick little tantrum that's over in a few seconds. That's understandable; I'm libertarian and don't want to be bothered by kids, but when living within a society, you can't expect children to be locked up in cages in their homes (although I'm sure many would like that). You're bound to have an unpleasant experience at some point, even if the parents are doing a good job.

The tantrums that occur which last, and last and last are the ones where I want to throw my soda in the parents' faces. And they never happen in a convenient location, like a mall, where you can just walk away from the scene. It always seems to happen in a restaurant or on a plane. If it happens in a restaurant, as it did when I was about 7 and my sister was 3, you pick the brat up and haul him/her out. You then sit in the car until the other people are done eating. Then you take him/her home and s/he eats lima beans for dinner. Actually, I think my sister had to watch me eat ice cream. I'm sure I loved that.

A screaming brat will ruin everyone's meal. Being a parent means giving up some luxuries - i.e eating a leisurely meal out. Either get a babysitter, or hit up McDonald's (unless the kid can behave). For the people courteous enough (and who enjoy their marriage enough) to get a babysitter I think it is particularly egregious of parents who allow their children to run wild. It's good to take kids out to eat b/c it can teach them how to behave. But guess what? If that kid is NOT behaving, that's a great teachable moment in which you get up, leave and follow through w/ a punishment.

News flash: no one loves your kids like you do. Maybe some people who do have their own kids can appreciate how hard it is to raise them - but that doesn't mean they have the patience or desire to sit there while the kid is allow to be a jerk. Yes, it's called being a jerk, it's not just "being a child." Kids just don't know any better but it still doesn't make it "okay" to hit, kick and scream.

I nannied during high school and college. I have seen both ends of the behavioral spectrum - from the angelic to the asinine. So I know it's in the power of parents to raise kids who behave pretty well for the most part. And at the very least, they knew when to book me on a Saturday night so they could go enjoy a sexy, grown-up meal.

Ciao

Posted by: Gretchen at February 27, 2007 8:51 AM

Charlie, next time I'm shitfaced to the point of oblivion, I'll be sure to throw up all over your clothes and shoes.

I guess you can just write it off as a social peril - you should just stay out of Boston on a Saturday night after I have a crappy day and haven't eaten in 12 hours.

Actually, wait, wouldn't puking all over you kind of make me an asshole?

Or how about next time you're in the library trying to work on your thesis and I sit there and talk on my phone? Wait - ASSHOLE! Maybe my parents never taught me better so it's not really my fault. But the bottom line is, you shouldn't have to deal with recklessness. Yes, I'm an adult and should know better but so should people who ignore their kids.

There is a clear line b/w a who kid just tweaking out because he is tired and hungry and a kid who has parents who think a child is just a neat little accessory. Either way it's annoying. I cut the parents of the normal, tired/hungry kid slack: errands must be run and it's tough to fit it all in b/w naps - like I said before it's not a perfect science and I respect people who are trying their best. Ok, great, we live amongst each other so we must be patient and respect that other people are trying to live their lives. We get that.

The other "parents" - I will just stare at them, filthily. They don't care about you, or me, or anyone else. As long as THEY get to eat their delicious meal it's ok. Who cares if their kid is trying to knock over a statue and loses an arm as long as THEY get to have a phone conversation?

This isn't about people being more tolerant of kids; it's about people stepping up to the plate and doing their job. Parenting is a JOB just like any other.

I actually feel badly for kids of "parents" b/c they will grow up to be assholes just like their parents.

Ciao

Posted by: Gretchen at February 27, 2007 9:05 AM

The thing you seem to be missing is that adults can be expected not to be assholes, by dint of experience, training, and social pressure, so when they fail, they deserve the blame.

Children, on the other hand, are not fully formed and cannot be expected to act like adults. they deserve tolerance and understanding from the rest of us, especially when we don't know their circumstance.

For the record, if you or any other stranger puked on my shoes, I would be annoyed- but I would try to be comnpassionate about it- I have no way to know if you aren't suffering the flu, or have a reason to be drunkenly miserable- in other words, you'd get the benefit of doubt as a fellow human being. I certainly wouldn't let it upset me so much I'd be raving about it two days later.

Part of the social contract is to not be a jerk. the other part is to show compassion and forgiveness when our fellows are jerks, and not try to out-jerk them.

Posted by: Charlie at February 27, 2007 9:26 AM

Well, it amounts to how the parents view their children. Are the kids there for the parent's convenience or they other way?

Also, the fundamental of respecting others when you interact with the public. Now I am not in favor of enacting the Public Behavior Ordinances of Singapore, but this is the responsibility of the communities' leaders and the local chamber of commerce. Just like bartenders have the right to stop serving someone. I'm sure there could be a movement where store, theater, restaurant personnel would ask the indifferent parents to leave the place for the sake of the other patrons. If they don't... the police will be called to escort you and little Johnny (fodder for the next 20 years of therapy) off the premises and a lifetime ban will be enacted. Let's give these underpaid, overworked managers and assistant managers a little power. I'm sure the services will improve.

This isn't adults without kids versus families. I'm sure there are plenty of centered parents who would appreciate it too. Now if I can find a way to avoid adults with extended adolescences. Ah, serenity.

Posted by: Joe at February 27, 2007 9:44 AM

Being the father of two boys who behave most of the time, I have to agree with Brad, here. I don't think it is asking too much of people to deal with a little discomfort in the interest of teaching a child how to properly behave in public. Amy complains about rude behavior and yet she also complains about the very thing that is most effective in curbing rude behavior in children.

The only correct thing to do in such a situation is to completely ignore the child. Paying any sort of attention, negative or otherwise, to that behavior only encourages it. Of course, as a parent, you have to be consistent about it or the tantrum will last forever. If you give in once, you lose.

Next time, Amy, you should address the child in a firm, but gentle tone. Tell him that his behavior is disrupting your dinner and that you don't appreciate it. Most kids that are not beyond repair will shut up when faced by a stranger (fear them, kids!). Most parents who are not completely worthless will appreciate your interjection. I know I would.

Posted by: SilverFox at February 27, 2007 9:51 AM

Charlie,

I agree that we must be compassionate and forgiving - I am not missing that point. I am not missing other the point that I, an adult, am held to different standards than a 5 year old. That makes sense and isn't arguable. Children aren't done developing...

Sorry if I was unclear - but it's the PARENTS OF THE FIVE YEAR OLD who must also be held to some standards. I am understanding - raising kids can really suck sometimes. I've done several week-long stints for families when they wanted a couples-only trip and couldn't wait for them to return. I felt isolated and desperate in a house w/ children who wouldn't listen to me. This is unfortunate because, with nice kids, the week could have been less trying - maybe even fun.

When I took those kids out to dinner on our "last night," you'd better believe it that when one of the kids stood up and STOMPED and yelled "NO!" multiple times b/c I told her to take another bite of her $12 chicken fingers (come on, breaded and fried pseudo chicken, not veggies, people) I threw down $50, nodded apologetically to the couple next to us, put her in the car and we went home. She went to bed at her usual school-night bedtime, didn't get dessert and didn't get to watch the Friday night feature movie on Disney.

It's not that I think kids need to behave perfectly - that would be ridiculous. But when the kids are out of control, as I see they so often are, that I EXPECT the parents to respond in a responsible manner. I don't act compassionately towards people who have proven to me they are apathetic and don't care that their children are not "acting like children," but rather monkeys with ADHD who have taken to a supply of cocaine.

Some people ARE jerks and for the sake of my blood pressure and happiness I try to let it fly. That's what the eliptical machine is for. But it's ok to disagree with outlandish behavior - I'm not talking kids, I'm talking parents. Or, now that I think about it, whomever is in charge of caring for the kids at the moment. It's ok to "let it slide" when a baby is hungry and the mom just needs to get the food shopping done. The crying is annoying but understandable and why I shop at 10pm on Mondays. However, it's not ok to ALLOW a 6 year old to stomp on the ground and make a stink. When "allow" is tantamount to "encourage."

I don't feel there is anything about that which lacks compassion nor is it "out jerking" them by feeling that they are doing the children a disservice by ignoring and not correcting behavior that is inappropriate. Kids won't change if they're not told - and someday they'll be adult who ARE expected to behave in a certain manner, only they will be self involved and greedy because their parents catered to their every whim.

P.S thank you for forgiving me for my hypothetical alcohol induced sickness.

Posted by: Gretchen at February 27, 2007 10:00 AM

While my mother did complain that some parents did not reign in their kids, she also complained that many adults did not behave themselves in public. I assume the kidbashers curtail their saltier language and keep their behavior PG when parents with tots are about?

While my kids are OK most of the time (and have a car time-out otherwise), my child with developmental delays cannot always behave as I would like. I would like some understanding when a kid is acting out if the parents are attempting to deal with them.. If the parents are more interested in their cell phone and latte, then give it to them with both barrels.

Posted by: Ruth at February 27, 2007 10:12 AM

General question:

When your child is having a tantrum in public, is leaving immediately, going home and administering a proper punishment not going to get the point across that the behavior was inappropriate?

I've have that done to me when I was about 4, my sister had that done to her (and I got to be the wonderful little role model child), I've done it with kids I was taking care of, etc. It does work. Completely ignoring the child might be an effective measure - but what if the child isn't having a tantrum - but rather running around, poking other patrons, yelling loudly...those are inappropriate behaviors for public. Period. I don't care how old you are. Those children MUST be removed from the situation, I really don't understand how it's ok to stay and allow it to continue.

Discomfort for the greater good of society by creating self-aware and respectful people is one thing, it's another to allow a restaurant to become a playground and life guards to become babysitters (been there, done that, it lessens the effectiveness of the guard's watch on the water when they have to repeatedly tell the same children to please not drown your little sister, as she is choking on water). That's just straight up negligence and completely rude.

So I guess that's where the argument forked: tantrums and parenting versus outlandish behavior and "parenting" (at the local club, "parenting" comes with a 3pm cocktail hour and yes, lifeguards are somehow expected to have three sets of eyes and change diapers up on the chair). Needless to say, when I have a spare $125,000 lying around, I will NOT be joining "The Club."

Posted by: Gretchen at February 27, 2007 10:15 AM

Charlie- What you seem to be missing is that Amy isn't angry with the children, she is angry with the parent. If your child is throwing a temper tantrum, I think you should remove it from the public place. At least take it outside.

I've heard that the best way to teach a dog not to bark is to ignore it. Maybe that is so but I certainly wouldn't subject my neighbors to it. Sometimes the "best" way to do something isn't possible or probable, and you have to go with the second best way. I don't believe that hustling the kid to the car and standing outside ignoring it while it screams inside isn't effective.

I'm sure being a parent is very difficult, and I try and give people with kids the benefit of the doubt. What makes a huge difference in my attitude is the attitude of the parent. When they act like they recognize that other people exist and might be bothered, I can forgive nearly anything. When they pretend as if they and their offspring are the only people in the universe, I get a little miffed. A simple, "sorry" or an apologetic look goes a mile with me. This is the same principle that applies to driving. We all do something stupid now and then, but if you give the wave, you're pretty much instantly forgiven.

Posted by: Christina at February 27, 2007 10:15 AM

Article on college students and narcissism:

http://tinyurl.com/3akono

Posted by: Christina at February 27, 2007 10:25 AM

Agreed, Gretchen.

Christina,

A lot of parents instinctively view these types of criticisms as an assault on their kids. Personally, I would like to see more adults only places. Cafes, restaurants and movie theaters.

Posted by: Joe at February 27, 2007 10:27 AM

Our 9-year-old, mentally retarded son knows how to behave in restaurants, because we've taken him out from an early age, and he enjoys "go eat!" We make sure to take him to places where 1) There is food he likes, 2) we know we'll be able to get in and out within an hour and 3) we always bring along books and other quiet distractions to keep him from getting too restless. We've only had one instance in the last year where he was misbehaving, and I took him outside for a timeout on the bench in the cold while my husband had our meals packed up to go and paid the bill. I understand what some of the parents are saying about ignoring tantrums, and we did do that when we were at home. In a public place, I tried to at least get him outside and away from other people, then let him have at it while I stood with my back turned to him.

Posted by: deja pseu at February 27, 2007 10:37 AM

Joe-
I agree. It's also instinctive to defend my cave, but I have yet to go screaming howler monkey on a soliciter. Though I have considered it. Often.

Posted by: Christina at February 27, 2007 10:38 AM

I'm not saying parents shoult let their children run wild. Children running around a restaurant is clearly unacceptable- but it's seldom the end of the world, either.

Sometimes a little engagement by the offended party is a better solution than passive-agressive griping after the fact. I guess out of everything, that bothers me the most. A tantruming child is often in the throes of something bigger than himself- he's emotionally blown a gasket.

Sometimes, a little positivity from a friendly face can diffuse the siuation. Not everyone is aware that their kids' antics aren't cute to you unless you say sor do something- and there are lots of ways to get the point across without angry confrontation. Offer to get the screamer a drink of water, lead the running child back to his table, etc. Give the parent an encouraging word- "they can be so difficult, can't they?"

Even the most oblivious offender can be convinced to step in if they're embarassed- and an act of kindness works a million times better than dirty looks and heaving sighs.

Ignoring the situation and griping later is pointless and futile. The parents of the world are not going to read your griping and identify it with their own kids, you come off intolerant, everyone loses.

Posted by: Charlie at February 27, 2007 10:40 AM

> in the throes of something bigger
> than himself- he's emotionally
> blown a gasket.

How does a "blown gasket" permit you to be "bigger than yourself"? The whole point of courtesy is to keep your freight, and that of your children, off of other people's wagons.

Posted by: Crid at February 27, 2007 10:56 AM

After 2 years working as an OB nurse my motto in regards to children is: just because you can make one, doesn't mean you should.

Posted by: Ms. Wicks at February 27, 2007 2:07 PM

Right Deja.

Its not only indifferent parents and their unruly kids. Rude people of all stripes view any public venue as an extension of their own home. There are some things that need to stay in the home. Unruly kids included. The big kids in adult bodies too.

Posted by: Joe at February 27, 2007 2:52 PM

Gretchen writes:

Completely ignoring the child might be an effective measure - but what if the child isn't having a tantrum - but rather running around, poking other patrons, yelling loudly...those are inappropriate behaviors for public. Period. I don't care how old you are. Those children MUST be removed from the situation, I really don't understand how it's ok to stay and allow it to continue.

Discomfort for the greater good of society by creating self-aware and respectful people is one thing, it's another to allow a restaurant to become a playground and life guards to become babysitters (been there, done that, it lessens the effectiveness of the guard's watch on the water when they have to repeatedly tell the same children to please not drown your little sister, as she is choking on water). That's just straight up negligence and completely rude.

I agree. If I were sitting in Starbucks and a child was running around making noise, poking me, otherwise distracting me, I would alert the child's parent. If they failed to properly calm the child, I would call management.

As for the idea that the child doesn't know any better, that's palpable nonsense. A five year old does have an idea, based on observation if nothing else, of what is appropriate in a given situation. Even a five-year-old can understand, "People in Starbucks are being quiet and working. Not the place to play red rover."

But if he has not learned that inappropriate behavior will carry consequences, then that child simply will not care. "I feel like playing red rover, so I'm going to play red rover."

Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2007 12:52 AM

Sometimes, a little positivity from a friendly face can diffuse the siuation. Not everyone is aware that their kids' antics aren't cute to you unless you say sor do something- and there are lots of ways to get the point across without angry confrontation. Offer to get the screamer a drink of water, lead the running child back to his table, etc. Give the parent an encouraging word- "they can be so difficult, can't they?"

Taking a child that isn't your own by the hand??? Attempting to give a child that isn't yours something??? That's a good way to get arrested.

Very, very, very bad suggestion and why should you be inconvenienced or have to help control a recalcitrant child, anyway? Just call management. If they don't take the appropriate measures, then complain and leave.

Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2007 12:58 AM

I was going to ignore this, but I can't.

Our oldest threw a very public tantrum when he was about 3. We gritted our teeth, walked away and left him pounding the floor all by himself. It looked terrible (or we thought it did), but a few minutes later he got scared, ran to catch up, and never ever threw another tantrum.

What you did, was negligent to the point of disgusting! And what, pray tell, would you have done if some sicko had taken advantage of your abandonment and absconded with your child? It would have been pathetically easy to do. Since the kid's acting up anyway, no one would pay attention to his screams if someone were to happen by and run off with him. You and your wife are consummate morons if you think walking away from a child in "a very public place" is a good idea. Had I seen parents do what you did, I would make sure social services had a few words for you.

Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2007 1:05 AM

I always pity the kids (and me) when they're taken to places that are clearly not kid friendly where everything is made of glass and off limits, the music is classical, and there are no talking rodents. I understand a night out- but why the hell did you bring the kid with you and end up ruining my night?
I wasn't a tantrum kid- I was too busy running around- but my parents took me places where there were other kids and I could run without hurting myself. My brother threw a fit when he was little when my parents took him shopping but they just left him in the middle of the grocery store. When they finally let him see where they'd gone, he quit and never acted like that again. But I guess you can't get away with that these days?

Posted by: Julie at February 28, 2007 1:40 AM

Ah Patrick, the ad hominem attack, how unusual. "Consummate morons" are we? You may, rather, envision how this really worked. While we wanted the child to think his behavior had caused us to leave him, in fact we were anxiously keeping an eye on him to see what he did, being prepared to intervene if things did not go as we hoped.

Presumably you are not a parent, or this would have been self-evident. This is also, I think, Amy's problem - she gives excellent advice in other areas, but has no little experience with children, and it shows.

Posted by: Brad Richards at February 28, 2007 2:08 AM

Ah Patrick, the ad hominem attack, how unusual. "Consummate morons" are we? You may, rather, envision how this really worked. While we wanted the child to think his behavior had caused us to leave him, in fact we were anxiously keeping an eye on him to see what he did, being prepared to intervene if things did not go as we hoped.

No one is going to change my mind about this: leaving a child alone in a public place is stupid. Period. Consider the alarms you may have set off in management if they actually saw your little attempts at "discipline." And just how far do you have to walk away from a child before he sees that you have abandoned him, but you're still where you can see him. Could you really have prevented some sicko from taking your child? Maybe, maybe not. But taking an unnecessary risk to find out? Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2007 2:33 AM

> No one is going to change
> my mind about this:

Be stubborn! It makes people think you're principled!

> leaving a child alone in a public
> place is stupid.

The kid wasn't alone. There were all those people around, getting pissed off at him. Without Mom's loving gaze, he had to feel the annoyance from the redhead with the Ipod in the corner.

> Could you really have prevented
> some sicko from taking your child?

Kids just aren't that threatened by predators. You can turn your back and walk twenty feet out of view --especially in a public place full of similar families who'll be watching the kid whether they want to or not-- and be certain that he'll be there for the few seconds it takes for them to come to their senses. Kids are too easy to come by naturally; stealing them is just not that common a crime.

Not having any kids or having any interest in learning how to raise them, I nonetheless enjoyed Brad's tip for one compelling quality: It WORKED. The kid's life is much richer for that moment of shame. This showed a sensible understanding of the way soulcraft happens, and how it can sometimes be momentarily unpleasant.

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 4:35 AM

> I would make sure social services
> had a few words for you.

Government is not our Daddy. "Had a few words" is not the service we want government agencies to deliver, it's the one we want from parents.

> the alarms you may have set
> off in management

WTF is "management"? Do you really the coffeeshop managers or grocery managers or bank clerks worry themselves over toddler's dramas?

Patrick, you're being congestive again.

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 4:41 AM

Referring back to the caption, it would be nice if the child at least was rid of head lice. It was a real treat for 30 days to have to check a preteens head for lice before she was allowed into a classroom. Mom claimed she was too tired too look and then in the next breath claimed she had looked and found no lice. Mom's the one who needed the leash.

Posted by: Pat Patterson at February 28, 2007 5:26 AM

Patrick,

Most parents have pulled this trick at one time or another. Nothing puts the fear in a child like a missing parent. Of course, every parent also goes someplace unseen and keeps an eye on the situation. You must not have kids.

As for being concerned about someone snatching the kid ... I think you watch too much mainstream news. Child snatching is not the great threat to children that the media would like us to think. Sure, there are places where you have to be cautious, but people, for the most part, are good. We only hear the horror stories.

Posted by: SilverFox at February 28, 2007 5:42 AM

"Had I seen parents do what you did, I would make sure social services had a few words for you."

Patrick,
The above makes you sound like the worst sort of spittle-flecked, cowardly, curtain-twitching scold.

Surely that wasn't the intention?

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 28, 2007 5:44 AM

I think Patrick's sharing weird ideas about authority, whether it's parents, "management", or "social services."

We're never taking a bold moral stand by summoning authorities... If only because where there are authorities to be summoned, then the morality has already been worked out, right?

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 6:08 AM

"We're never taking a bold moral stand by summoning authorities... If only because where there are authorities to be summoned, then the morality has already been worked out, right?"

You notoriously invest too much in the "bold" part of a "bold moral stand", Crid, as if it's a quality all on its own.

But in this case - bingo.

(Also, if you chum up to authority for a spiteful or craven reason, it will come back to bite you - deservedly.)

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 28, 2007 6:46 AM

One thing too that we had to learn as parents was that little kids need help transitioning from one thing to another. We found that by giving our son a "preview" of the next activity, and then counting down to it (10 minutes till x, 5 minutes till x, 2 minutes till x), we prevented a lot of meltdowns. Little kids like to have some predictability in their lives; it gives them a sense of control. It's much easier to prevent a tantrum than to deal with it once the spit-up hits the fan.

Posted by: deja pseu at February 28, 2007 6:49 AM

Hey, Amy - Did you by any chance ask this mom for permission to put her daughter's picture on the internet? I realize they were sitting in a public place, but she was (as you said) behaving and she is (obviously) a minor. She just strikes me as unfair game.

Posted by: ProudMama at February 28, 2007 7:12 AM

Well, she strikes me, as you noted, as a person in a public place, and I found it interesting that she was wearing a leash, which is why I posted the photo.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2007 7:35 AM

I said: "We knew there would be consequences for bad behavior. My parents didn't negotiate with us. They gave us orders and we obeyed them."

Jodi Tressider said: "What cheerily confuses me, Amy - is why on earth you ever trembled in your dear little booties about these "consequences" since you never actually experienced them on account of how you were so perfectly behaved as a tot?"

Um, there was no trembling. We just knew bad behavior would not be tolerated, and wouldn't get us anywhere, so there was no point behaving badly. See André Tascha's note above about bathroom cleaning. I interviewed André recently, and heard how he talked to his son -- very civilized. Parents who raise children to be civilized have civilized children. More on André himself very soon.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2007 7:56 AM

Furthermore, to the person above who accused ME of having a public tantrum about this child, let me reiterate what went on here:

When the child started repeatedly throwing himself behind a big statue, then nearly knocked hot coffee over on himself, I went over and held the statue so it wouldn't fall on him, and righted the chair he'd knocked over so the coffee wouldn't fall on him. If only the kid had thrown my kind of tantrum -- standing perfectly still and seeing that no hot liquids were spilled -- there would have been far fewer people in that café without splitting headaches.

Why is it a tantrum to expect people to either teach their children appropriate public behavior or leave them home? Part of the reason we behaved appropriately, I'd venture, is that we were not taken out of the house to public places before we were civilization-friendly. I have to mention my friend Hillary Johnson again. She had a "spirited" son, and cares about other people's peace and quiet, so for many years, they only took her son to a restaurant at a bowling alley, where it was extremely loud from the pins and such already.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2007 8:05 AM

> invest too much in the "bold" part

You never solve the problem by calling the cops, you only pass it along to someone else. It may be the perfectly righteous thing to do, but we shouldn't pretend to be noble when we do it. That's what your saying when you call the cops, is that the norms of society need to be applied, not that they need to be changed.

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 12:08 PM

My parents were old school too. We were punished physically up to a certain age. Then the psych ops would be applied.

When it came to prepare the family (all six kids) for public dining. It was my mother's responsibility to teach us proper dining etiquette. With plastic food, cups, plates and plastic utensils. The lessons started when we were 4 or 5 years old.

When it came to the actual dining in public. The older brothers were the 'eyes and ears' of the parents at the restaurant. They would enforce their punishments under the table with a swift kick to the shins or elbows to the side. Not too hard, but as warnings.

Posted by: Joe at February 28, 2007 3:01 PM

My grandpa saw to it that we didn't eat like little savages.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2007 3:22 PM

My father tried the walk-off-while-the-kid-is-having-a-tantrum thing with my youngest sister in JC Penny's once. She saw that he had left and promptly ran the other direction and hid under a clothes rack. It took my father an hour to find her. He was watching her, but she was a lot faster than he was.

Posted by: meshaliu at February 28, 2007 3:48 PM

What's the sister like nowadays? How old is she?

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 5:01 PM

Crid and Jodi, I don't care what you think. Have good lives, but have them away from me, thanks. Nuff said.

For the rest of you, let's just use another example, shall we? An amazing idiot, recently deceased, by the name of Steve Irwin, aka The Crocodile Hunter.

When his son was all of one month old, he decided it was time for his first "croc demo." He took his son into a croc pen, held him close to the ground and moved in a manner to simulate walking, with a very large croc less than 30 feet away. Then with son in left arm, dead chicken in right, he dangled the dead chicken for the croc, which took its meal with a quick snap of its jaws.

Son okay, so no harm done, right?

Nope.

It doesn't change the fact that his antics were dangerous. Irwin insisted that his son was never in any danger. I don't buy it. That croc could have easily and very quickly overpowered Irwin and his could have been harmed or killed.

Irwin had demonstrated several times in his life (with the number of times he's been bitten, stung, or whatever else) that he is not a reliable oracle on what an animal will do. The manner in which he died is a case in point (unless we think he intended to be impaled by a stingray).

So, now, we turn to leaving a child by himself in a public place. I don't know the odds of some predator finding this child, and neither does anyone else. But I will wager it's more likely that an attempt would be made to abduct the child by himself than the one holding onto his parent's hand. You want to dangle your kid for the crocs, I don't have the authority to stop you. But don't expect me to applaud you for your innovative approach to discipline.

Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2007 7:18 PM

> I don't know the odds of some
> predator finding this child

We know you don't.

Patrick, life is a swirling, sucking eddy of despair... Our only relief is flashing glimpses of false hope in an ever-blackening universe. People just don't care, Patrick... They just don't care. It's a cryin' shame! It's a sad commentary.

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 7:24 PM

"Did you by any chance ask this mom for permission to put her daughter's picture on the internet? I realize they were sitting in a public place, but she was (as you said) behaving and she is (obviously) a minor. She just strikes me as unfair game"

Sorry, Proud Mama, but I agree with Amy. The girl and her mother were in a public place, and the picture was taken in a public place. There is no legal or ethical reason why this picture SHOULDN'T have been posted. Why on earth should she be considered "unfair game", especially since Amy said nothing remotely negative about the child? I actually think the most interesting aspect of the photo is the fact that the mother leashes her daughter in public...my mom used those wrist leashes when my brother and I were young, and we grew up perfectly civilized! Maybe more people should get over their fear of "what others might think" and worry about what works best for them.

Side note: Amy, I stumbled across your website a couple of months ago, and think it's hysterical. My only problem is that you don't update your advice columns very often...shouldn't the Advice Goddess be answering mortals' questions on a daily basis? Please? ;)

Posted by: Sarah at March 1, 2007 12:54 AM

Aww, thanks. I only write one column a week, because it's humor, and writing humor is an ugly process, plus it's research-intensive, even though I try to make it read like it isn't. But, where do you live? If I don't run in the local paper (alt weekly or daily that isn't too Puritanical) you might request my column. If it's a daily, write to the features editor.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 1:00 AM

Patrick, life is a swirling, sucking eddy of despair... Our only relief is flashing glimpses of false hope in an ever-blackening universe...

Crid! You made me snort into my coffee.

Posted by: Norman at March 1, 2007 5:10 AM

That line's from a Bill Maher appearance on Letterman circa '90. It spoke to me

Posted by: Crid at March 1, 2007 5:59 AM

Parenting styles seem to be such a controversy. I am the mother of an 11 month old. She is starting to develop a temper. I hope to God she doesnt act like one of "those" kids. My parenting style "plan" is to try to always treat her like a person instead of a pet that I can control. Always talk to her like a person who will eventually be an adult and try not to bribe or manipulate her. I want to be able to make her understand how things work and that throwing a fit in a store is not the way to behave or get what you want. If she does throw a temper tantrum in a store, theater, any public place whatsoever, the very first thing I will do is drag her hide outside and deal with her there! Whatever Im doing or trying to do is NOT more important than dealing with my child.

Posted by: amber at March 1, 2007 7:34 AM

Amber is my kind of parent: considerate of those of us who don't want to feel like we've been kidnapped and sent to Chuck E. Cheese.

When I've talked to kids who've been misbehaving, it's always been like they're adults; ie, "When you blow that whistle, it hurts my head right here. Please don't blow that whistle anymore." It actually seems to work really well. Of course, immediately after you say something, (American) parents will go off on you. In France, if a child is misbehaving some adult will say something. Not a problem.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 7:42 AM

First, Amber, you might want to get a book called "Positive Discipline for Toddlers." My girl's a preschooler now, with generally wonderful manners and seriously few meltdowns over the years and I think that book helped me get her that way. Another thing that helped was a sand timer, with time in the quiet corner or removal from wherever when the sand ran out and she was still going strong. (Swifter removal, of course, if other people were within earshot.)

Second, Amy, you've got to stop generalizing. Not all American parents would go off on someone who spoke kindly but authoritatively to their child if the kid was misbehaving. I wouldn't. What I would do is apologize, and make sure my daughter did the same. And I think most of my mom friends would react like me.

That said, I have to go to Chuckie Cheese for a party today, which is absolutely my idea of living hell. Four years into it and I still hate kiddie crowd noise.

Posted by: ProudMama at March 1, 2007 11:48 AM

Thanks ProudMama, I think I will check out that book.

Posted by: amber at March 1, 2007 12:16 PM

Second, Amy, you've got to stop generalizing. Not all American parents would go off on someone who spoke kindly but authoritatively to their child if the kid was misbehaving. I wouldn't.

It's a generalization that's true. A friend, who moved to Paris to raise her child (with her American husband) was the one who first pointed it out to me, and every time I've EVER told some kid (nicely) to please be considerate, the parent has come over and told me "It's not your business to discipline my child."

I quote Eleanor Roosevelt, who said something along the lines of "If you don't parent your child, others will do it for you."

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 12:22 PM

Well feel free to parent mine if we ever run into you at 18th Street or the Rose cafes and she's misbehaving (which is, fingers crossed, unlikely). And while you always say how great you are with these kids in need of discipline, maybe if EVERY parent has had a problem with your comments, maybe you should reconsider your delivery. Just a thought.

Posted by: ProudMama at March 1, 2007 12:44 PM

Oh, I "deliver" just fine, and I've never based my behavior on the opinions of those I have a total lack of respect for.

I speak gently but firmly to a child, like they're a civilized being. It works very well on the kids; the parents just don't like to have what a bad job they're doing pointed out. There's also probably the unnecessary paranoia at root that every adult is a potential kidnapper or child molester, when actually, statistically, these crimes are rare.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 12:57 PM

"What's the sister like nowadays? How old is she?"

Crid, my sister is 22 now and she was a fuckup for several years. She's got a lot of juvinile offences and a couple of adult ones too. She's found the woman of her dreams, though, and she's starting to get her life together. I'm proud of her now.

Posted by: meshaliu at March 1, 2007 1:35 PM

Right. Got it.

Posted by: Crid at March 1, 2007 3:48 PM

Proud Mama, is there some reason you feel compelled to post clues about where I live and to reveal the cafés I like to frequent? Does it give you a sense of power that you know who I am and I can only guess that you're, perhaps, LG?

I have convicts who write to me, so I try not to reveal too much about my life on the Internet. I'm open about what I think and what I've done in life, good and bad and just plain dumbass. I realize that you seem to have some grudge against me, from the way you post, and it comes out in many of your comments here. You can dislike me, but try to stay on topic instead of trying to go through my underwear drawer and hold up my panties for display. They're clean, but nevertheless...

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 3:51 PM

Amy - You mention Venice and various cafes where you write (and are annoyed by young 'uns) regularly. That's the only way I knew, and I didn't realize I was posting something private about you, which I would never do intentionally. And I have no grudge against you. I don't know you, just your blog, and sometimes I agree, often I don't, and once in awhile I say so. But just today I also noted that I was with you on the model ad and reminded you about soda with real sugar. Anyway, my sincere apologies if you think I meant in any way to harm you. I didn't, and I don't. I'm not LG, if that's a reference to initials, and maybe one day I'll work up the nerve to be more public about myself, which is one thing I hugely admire about you.

Posted by: ProudMama at March 1, 2007 5:29 PM

You have revealed several things that I have NEVER revealed on this site. I was upset each time you did it, and I don't delete comments from my site...which means you've basically stripped me of some of my privacy and safety, and for no good reason, and I don't appreciate that.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 5:59 PM

I can't imagine what those things are. But I will believe you. And please do believe me when I say it was unintentional. I too live on the West Side, like I've said, and maybe your words rang so real to me that I got the reference and imagined you had named the actual place yourself. I offered my apologies. I hope you'll forgive me, and know with certainty that it won't happen again.

Posted by: ProudMama at March 1, 2007 6:07 PM

Thanks...I appreciate that.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 1, 2007 6:49 PM

I live in Guam...while it's a really nice place to live, it's not exactly the most liberal island on the planet. As much as I adore your column, and think it would be a big hit with a specific group of people, I don't think I'll have much luck getting it published here. However, if it's okay with you, I'll advertise your website on the bulletin boards around the university campus. Please drop me an email if there's anything specific you do/don't want me to display. Thanks!

Posted by: Sarah at March 1, 2007 8:53 PM

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