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Sleazy Does It
A few days ago, I posted on the Asshole-Canceling Headphones entry that I'd caught our resident (of late) Islam violence apologist in some deception:

It seems we have a little deception going on here.

Imelda -- IP address 124.152.58.26 -- is also Chester and Forest and Miranda -- all of whom posted nasty remarks just moments ago (on this entry and others).

Not a surprise, since she mainly comes here because she's angry that I dare speak critically of Islam; say, of Islam's principle of taquiyya: deception that serves the cause.

Imelda, wouldn't your time be better spent combating the Islam-advocated violence by Muslims against other Muslims and the rest of us --rather than criticizing me for coming down against it? And making little sniping remarks like the ones you've made in the past 10 minutes? If you continue to post under multiple identities, I'll ban your sleazy ass.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 13, 2007 8:30 AM

Clearly, I didn't ban her. I don't like to ban anyone and, in fact, in the four years I've been blogging, I have yet to do it. I value freedom of speech, and free and open discussion. Of course, in America, unlike in Islamic countries, you won't be stoned, jailed, or killed for speaking your mind.

Imelda just responded to my post. (Not sure what PSML means):

Amy says: "I'll ban your sleazy ass."

PMSL. Ooer Ooer. Amy. Hear that sound? That's my knees a-knockin together. I am so scarwed. Oh mighty, powerful Alkon, please don't ban me. My life would be so empty without access to your website. *Sob* *Sob*

That's the problem with you yanks. You're so Goddamned full of your own self-importance. Ban my arse. Really. You have the power! Knock yaself out. Geeze I'm sick of you Goddammed arrogant sonsabeaches.

You're all the time telling the rest of the world how to live when your own society is one of shallow consumerism and self gratification. You keep people imprisoned without charge, without trial in Guantanamo Bay against the codes of the Geneva convention. You do whatever the hell you please regardless of international law or opinion then you dictate to everyone else how THEY'RE supposed to behave. I'm not angry at you for your anti-muslim stance. I'm in contempt of you for your arrogance and lack of self-awareness. You are a shallow, egotistical American like so many other shallow, egotistical Americans and I have had a gut full of the negative impact people like you are having on my society. So shove that in your bong and smoke it Alkon. You shit me to tears.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 4:32 AM

Here's my response:

But, I didn't ban you, because I believe in freedom of speech, even for Muslim liars. In Judaism and Christianity, at least, there's a value for telling the truth. In "The Religion of Peace," there's a value for lying.

How's that freedom of speech work for you in Islamic countries?

Ooer Ooer.

That sounds like a pig noise. Many Muslims teach their children that Jews are pigs. In fact, it's taught in schools in the Middle East.

What kind of backward people think that way, teach their children that way?

Aaah, again, "The Religion Of Peace."

It's so amazing that you attack me instead of standing up against Muslims who kill in the name of Islam, who use Islam as the reason for killing. Where's your outcry against them?

P.S. My self-importance compelled me to give generously after the tsunami, because I, unlike so many Muslims, don't have a primitive belief in god and the ensuing tribalism -- deadly tribalism, very often, in the case of your particular backward religion.

Again, where's your outcry against murder in the name of Islam? Is outcry against noise-canceling headphones more of a priority? Or is it really my
"arrogance and lack of self-awareness"? Sorry, I can't stop laughing. You post multiple angry posts in many people's names because I'm un-self-aware?

Do you really think that smokescreen is working? I think part of the problem is that you were sold a religion that teaches you not to think, so you can't argue a point all that well; ie, honestly and dealing substantively with the real points. You have to post nasty remarks about me...one of them intimating that I'd be murdered for criticizing Islam.

There's the difference between Islam and the generally more civilized religions. When I post here about Jews and Christians being ridiculous for believing in god and all that ensues from that (banning stem cell research, the teaching of evolution, etc.) they debate me on the points. They sometimes tell me I'm a rude jerk. But, not once has a Jew or a Christian ever told me I'd end up dead for speaking freely against their religion.

Barbarian.

Posted by aalkon at February 16, 2007 10:57 AM

Comments

A blog completely devoted to moi? I feel so special *blush*
There's a great gaping hole in your diatribe though Amy, I'm not Muslim.
You keep bleating on about Muslims not being outraged about Muslims killing people. Where's YOUR outrage over the atrocities committed by Americans? You never answer my questions. You conveniently skirt any issue I raise and concentrate on demonising ME, believing me to be a Muslim.
You're not speaking out against MY religion. I have no religion. So gee, I wonder what you'll say my problem is now?
Waiting with bated breath for your enlightening prose.
Imelda.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 7:34 AM

Imelda, just curious why you can't attempt to answer the question Amy posed before shouting out your own questions. And, why do you use other names to post? That's odd behavior.

Posted by: Rojak at February 16, 2007 8:12 AM

I would argue that some of the more recent outrages (and I agree they are certainly outrages) commited by the American Government may not have happend if certain violent muslims had not attacked the American people.

The reason that the American Government currently has basically free reign to do whatever the hell it wants is because people are afraid. We are afraid of terrorists, people who would kill for the religion, without warning and without compromise. And in our fear, many people gave too much power away to our leaders.

What our leaders have done with that power is appalling in some cases, they have destroyed the constitution of our country and commited horrible acts in the name of the people. And there are many people who have spoken out about it. But the acts of 9/11 were too successful. They succeeded in implanting an unshakable image in the minds of Americans. And That image is what has allowed this conflict to go on, and will continue to allow it.

What the planners of 9/11 did not do, is learn from the past. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, the Americans responded, eventually with nuclear attacks in Japan. This, was not in my opinion a proportional response. But if anything it gives a clear idea of how far America is willing to go to defend our country and our people. Did they think t hings had changed? That we wouldn't come after them and by extension their people? And where were they when we attacked Afghanistan, Iraq. They were hiding, they are hiding, like cowards.

Al Qaeda started this fight. And I'm sorry that it is still going on but actions have consequences.

Posted by: Shinobi at February 16, 2007 8:14 AM

Imelda,

Amy is not a half wit, so I hope I am not insulting her by backing her up here (b/c I know she can do it herself better than I).

I have never read anything posted on Amy's website that would lead me to believe that she supports wrong-doings by the U.S. She voices her opinions on things that are particularly outrageous to her, things that I also feel are important to inform the general public about. By merely focusing on one topic, does not automatically mean she supports wrong-doings of the U.S. I am not implying that is Amy's opinion, I am simply pointing out the flaw in your logic. I like Italian food, does that mean I despise Mexican food? That would be an absurd conclusion.

I love this country, but like most other citizens, realize it has its faults. The United States is far from perfect, and I hardly believe Amy would debate that (Amy, if you disagree I apologize for putting words in your mouth, but you seem reasonable, and haven't proven yourself to be an ignorant, nationalist, well, I won't use derogatory terms).

People like yourself, Imelda, are known commonly as being "irrational." Instead of attempting to find literature to debate the postings (which appear to be indubitably accurate...) you come down on Amy in a personal manner. This is immature, obnoxious, not to mention a futile way to promote your opinions - because you seemingly have no opinions (you just rant and rave about how you hate Amy's character).

Let's face it: You love to hate the U.S. Amy is American, living out her life as she chooses. This means she is allowed to accept or reject whatever religious beliefs she wants to. Isn't that outrageous? That she is allowed to be an independent woman, who has her own website...and people actually write to her with their problems because they think she can provide them with useful and worthy input?!? Crazy! Wow, the U.S is so backwards and screwed up, isn't it my pompous little friend.

Every insult you shoved at Amy could be shoved right back at you. All that you say, in a wonderfully ironic fashion, reflects yourself and the bullshit you spew.

Her blog might be being used to expose the faults of a certain religion, but she is quick to point out the faults of other religions and issues as well. She isn't unfair in posting these things b/c they stand unchallenged (meaning: she isn't making this shit up. It's coming from legit sources...).

Thank you, Amy, for having the guts and wherewithal to expose the truth. Please don't ban Imelda, as the ignorance and postings are hilarious.

Posted by: Gretchen at February 16, 2007 8:16 AM

Gretchen, thanks for putting that so well. I don't want to ban Imelda -- I just wanted to put her on notice that I was on to her deception.

And you're quite right: This country has its faults. I don't debate that. I post them every day on my blog, in hopes that, through open discussion, there's change for the better.

That said, I can't think of another country I'd rather be a citizen of, especially since so few citizens around the world have the rights and freedoms we do. If we don't exercise them and defend them, we may lose them. That's not going to happen if I can help it.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 16, 2007 9:00 AM

So how exactly is Imelda an expert on Americans? Is it the dozens of American friends she has, or perhaps the 10 years she spent living here? Hmmmm...

Posted by: christina at February 16, 2007 9:47 AM

The prospect of being banned from one website sends her into the frothing anti-American hissy fit that is never very far below the surface.

"...negative impact people like you are having on my society"
Which society is that, I wonder?

Posted by: winston at February 16, 2007 9:55 AM

Imelda,

You complain about the abuses of the USA on the international scene. What about your beloved Australia? Why are you incapable of answering my past questions on the political similarities of Australia and the USA? So what gives? Is Australia this perfect political paradise on earth? Or a mirror version of the USA with a slightly different English accent?

Australia’s current Prime Minister John Howard overruled the ACT Civil Unions act that would allow same sex unions. What are George W. Bush's view on same sex unions? On February 25, 2005, Howard pledge to increase troop numbers in Iraq. Does George Bush believe in sending more troops to Iraq? In mid 2005, Howard's cabinet wanted to add modifications to Australia's Crimes Act (their Patriot Act) of 1914 to combat domestic terrorism. Everyone knows George Bush's views on the Patriot Act. Isn’t Australia a proud member of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq? I'm curious what are Howard's views on global warming? I bet they are similar to the US President's views. Well, shoot they are:

http://www.tai.org.au/documents/downloads/WP84.pdf

Now, Imelda you may be in political opposition towards your own Prime Minister. That would be wonderful. But can you explain why John Howard's views are similar to George Bush's? Also, if Australia is this wonderful multi-cultural all embracing nation... they why can't you get John Howard out of office? He's been your Prime Minister since 1996.

Are you jealous of the USA's status in the world? You cannot solve your own nation's political problems, so there must be another more 'evil' nation responsible? What is the real source of your problems? Your obsession towards Amy? Do you struggle with mental illness? Low self esteem? Were you picked on by an American Expat’s kid as a youth?

I know you will never answer my questions. The reason behind this post is for others who are experiencing your unique and highly unstable ramblings for the first time. You are nothing but a classic online troll. Try to get some professional help or increase your current prescription meds.

Posted by: Joe at February 16, 2007 9:56 AM

[Australia’s current Prime Minister John Howard overruled the ACT Civil Unions act that would allow same sex unions.]
I have publically and vehemently protested this action.

[Isn’t Australia a proud member of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq?]
The Australian Government made that decision against the will of the Australian people. The majority of Australians are opposed to our presence in Iraq. I have publically and vehemently protested this issue too.

[I'm curious what are Howard's views on global warming?]
John Howard believes nuclear is the way to go to reduce green house gasses. Most Australians oppose this also. Most Australians believe solar and renewable energy is a viable alternative. I personally believe the nuclear agenda has more to do with mining our rich uranium reserves and Australia becoming a nuclear power along side the US which I also publically and vehemently protest.

[Now, Imelda you may be in political opposition towards your own Prime Minister. That would be wonderful. But can you explain why John Howard's views are similar to George Bush's?]
I am in political opposition towards my own prime minister. So are many Australians. Most people see his views that are similar to Bush's as a thrust for power with an element of intimidation thrown in. There is not much doubt that the Bush administration has coerced Howard into subservience by threatening trade and defence alliances.

[Also, if Australia is this wonderful multi-cultural all embracing nation... they why can't you get John Howard out of office? He's been your Prime Minister since 1996.]
Unfortunately, there is little stability in the opposing parties. Until now, Howard has been the lesser of two evils in the eyes of the Australian public (I haven't voted for him). Fortunately, the current opposition is gaining strength and outrunning Howard in recent polls. So who knows what the next election will bring. Australia is far from a multi-cultural paradise. Many Australians are bigoted idiots. I am constantly outraged by opinions I read here in Australia too. I am very outspoken on the issues of racial, religious and cultural tolerance. Most of the cultural issues at the moment mimic those of the US since 9/11 with a huge bias against Muslims which never existed before. Hatred breeds hatred. The more people marginalise the Muslims here, the more trouble arises.

[Are you jealous of the USA's status in the world?]
OMG! You are joking yeah? *laughs out loud* I envy the US nothing.

[You cannot solve your own nation's political problems, so there must be another more 'evil' nation responsible?]
No one can solve any nation's political problems because people don't have any control any more. Conspiracies, counter-conspiracies, propaganda and subterfuge are the systemic agenda of the day.

[What is the real source of your problems?] Misanthropy.

[Your obsession towards Amy?] I'm not obsessed. She just happened to be there at the time.

[Do you struggle with mental illness?] Yes.
[Low self esteem?] No.
[Were you picked on by an American Expat’s kid as a youth?] No.

[I know you will never answer my questions.] Wrong.
[The reason behind this post is for others who are experiencing your unique and highly unstable ramblings for the first time.] Bless you.
[You are nothing but a classic online troll.] Wrong again.
[Try to get some professional help or increase your current prescription meds.] Been there, done that. Doesn't help because society is still shit and nothing can change that.

Happy now?

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:19 AM

[Al Qaeda started this fight. And I'm sorry that it is still going on but actions have consequences.]

No. Sorry. The USA has had a shit foreign policies since long before 9/11. Half the world don't even believe Al Qaida was responsible. There are too many answered questions. Who knows? Maybe it was an inside job. I personally don't care who started it. I just want it to end.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:22 AM

[And, why do you use other names to post? ]

Because I can.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:23 AM

[Amy is not a half wit]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You. Me. Everyone.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:24 AM

[Clearly, I didn't ban her. I don't like to ban anyone and, in fact, in the four years I've been blogging, I have yet to do it.]
Then why say "I'll ban your sleazy arse"?
That's rude and inflammatory. It makes you look like you're on a complete power trip. (which is one of my issues).

[I value freedom of speech, and free and open discussion.]
Then why completely slag anyone who has a different opinion to you rather than having a friendly "discussion" about points of topic. You haven't just done it to me. You come out claws bared to anyone who challenges you. It's not the way to win friends and influence people and is one of the main reasons I chose to confront you in the first place. I can't stand pissing competitions. It's like playing tic tac toe. No one wins.

Anyway, the sun is rising and I haven't been to sleep yet. Y'all have fun now, y'hear.

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:29 AM

PS. When I rant and rave it's called "instability" or being a "sleaze" or a "troll". When Amy rants and raves, it's called "journalism".
What's the go with that?
To me, Amy appears equally unhinged as me. She is as obsessed with bagging Muslims as you say I am with bagging her.
Go figure. *shrugs*

Posted by: Imelda at February 16, 2007 11:35 AM

Imelda,

You said:

"Then why completely slag anyone who has a different opinion to you rather than having a friendly "discussion" about points of topic. You haven't just done it to me. You come out claws bared to anyone who challenges you. It's not the way to win friends and influence people and is one of the main reasons I chose to confront you in the first place."

Because sometimes, Imelda, people need to be slagged and maybe, just maybe, they know it- whether it be consciously or subconsciously. "Friendly" conversations beat around the bush and often times don't get to the root of the matter, which usually is ignorance, stupidity, or laziness. Amy gives people the slap in the face that is in most cases obvioulsy way over due. Amy is informed, interesting, witty, and progressive. So are many (not all sweet Imelda, Forest, Chester, Miranda, Judas) of the people who respond to this thought provoking, highly stimulating Advice Goddess. (That part just killed you didn't it.)

Posted by: kg at February 16, 2007 11:54 AM

Imelda,

You said:

"Then why completely slag anyone who has a different opinion to you rather than having a friendly "discussion" about points of topic. You haven't just done it to me. You come out claws bared to anyone who challenges you. It's not the way to win friends and influence people and is one of the main reasons I chose to confront you in the first place."

Because sometimes, Imelda, people need to be slagged and maybe, just maybe, they know it- whether it be consciously or subconsciously. "Friendly" conversations beat around the bush and often times don't get to the root of the matter, which usually is ignorance, stupidity, or laziness. Amy gives people the slap in the face that is in most cases obvioulsy way over due. Amy is informed, interesting, witty, and progressive. So are many (not all sweet Imelda, Forest, Chester, Miranda, Judas) of the people who respond to this thought provoking, highly stimulating Advice Goddess. (That part just killed you didn't it.)

Posted by: kg at February 16, 2007 11:55 AM

Twice. Just in case you didn't quite get it the first time.

Posted by: kg at February 16, 2007 12:17 PM

You have every right to hate the U.S and speak what you feel, I would never object to this. I think the main point I was making, and I apologize if I was unclear, was that Amy's critique of the implementation and various practices of Islam doesn't equate to her hating all the people of the religion; it doesn't automatically mean that she is only concerned with discussing that one issue. If you read her site, she is clearly in disagreement with a lot of American policies.

Further:

Criticizing aspects of a religion is not hatred - saying "I am Catholic, Allah go screw yourself..." then yeah, that would be misguided and disrespectful. Yet I feel that we're all in agreement that I have the right to feel that way (which I don't).

Criticizing the role that a religion plays in human development is completely legitimate. Imelda, I must consider you to be the same type of person who cries out "ANTI SEMITE!!! HOLOCAUST DENIER!!!!" every time a person disagrees with an Israeli government policy. It is so (SO!) illogical.

As the American society developed since its inception many wonderful and not-so-wonderful things have occurred. Now, I hate "big government" and would like less of it interfering with my life, but at the same time I believe the U.S developed with minimal interference. More precisely, women can vote - they have legal status and independence where they previously did not. This is part of "natural human development." Enough people in the country said "Hey, now, I want to marry whomever, wear whatever, own some property, etc." After years of agony, the majority prevailed.

Coming from the U.S, I was raised within a culture that believes different things than other cultures (duh). For example, my father doesn't reserve the right to beat the bejesus out of me for getting an economics degree, driving (driving like a notorious Masshole by the way), and not covering myself up. But, I respect the right for others to believe otherwise.

I do NOT respect a situation where a person does not have the right to choose, for him/herself, which way to live.

I have the right to cover my head - like some of my Middle Eastern friends. They practice the religion they grew up with in Jordan, Saudi, etc. Yet, they do this on their own accord, whilst living in the United States. Other Muslim friends do not cover their heads.

This is the TRUE point: In the U.S you can live which way you choose (barring things like, aw shit, I dunno....killing your wife). That IS the way it should be - where each person in a society can choose to eat Kosher, to attend Mass on Sunday mornings, to fast during lent, to not say "Under God" during the Pledge, etc.

Living in fundamentalist Islam areas means you do not have the right to choose. You do not have the right to disagree. You MUST LIVE ONE WAY and if you do not, then your future will be bleak - and abruptly short.

And, hey, many Americans are right there with you as far as opposing U.S presence in Iraq, including my friend's father who returned home last Monday (in one piece, thankfully). But you don't get to place blanket stereotypes on all Americans and call it anything else but stupidity. You don't get to say we're anti-this or anti-that, when in reality, most of us just want to see a region of the world where it is the right of the people to decide for themselves how to live. If all women in that region, really, truly with all their hearts were totally content with that lifestyle, they should go for it!! But see, they won't be given a choice, nor do they know of any other ways of life.


The oppression isn't women keeping their heads covered, the oppression is that the women aren't allowed to do things differently, and that "other ways of life" are purposefully kept from their knowledge. That is the inhumanity of it.

Posted by: Gretchen at February 16, 2007 12:19 PM

{[Al Qaeda started this fight. And I'm sorry that it is still going on but actions have consequences.]

No. Sorry. The USA has had a shit foreign policies since long before 9/11. Half the world don't even believe Al Qaida was responsible. There are too many answered questions. Who knows? Maybe it was an inside job. I personally don't care who started it. I just want it to end.]

I don't disagree that we had shit foreign policies. (still have) But we didn't murder thousands of people in one day for no reason, without warning.

Additionally, just because "half the world" believes something doesn't make it true. "half the world" believes in god, that doesn't make it true. "Half the US" voted for GWBush, that didn't make it a good idea. People in large groups are notoriously stupid.

Posted by: Shinobi at February 16, 2007 12:29 PM

[And, why do you use other names to post? ]

Because I can.

I can't, because I have an ethical framework I live by, and being a liar isn't part of it.

You posted that way so as to make it seem that there were a number of people who shared your point of view. That's deceptive. And when you say, "Because I can," I don't think you believed you'd get caught, and shown up for it.

I'm not obsessed with "bagging" anyone. I dislike all god believing religions as I find them backward and counterproductive, and worse, when those who believe in them try to legislate or otherwise control others based on their belief, without evidence, in god. I likewise find belief in astrology ridiculous. I don't post very often about astrology, because, as far as I know, astrologers don't want to kill people who don't believe the moon in Saturn has relevance for their day, and/or make us all obey whatever the astrological version of sharia law would be.

Just a guess, but I don't think there are astrologers right now, collecting in "cells," plotting to blow up trains in Madrid, or to fly into buildings in the USA, murdering thousands of people. Hence, if you tell me you can tell me something about me based on the day I was born, I'll think you're merely silly, not a danger to the lives and freedoms of the rest of us.

Is this getting through to you now, Imelda?

What continues to stun me is how few Muslims there are like Wafa Sultan and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who speak out against the death cult and terrorism preached as Islam, and then, how there are the Imelda's of the world, who preach against the self-importance and self-indulgence of Amy.

If I am self-important and self-indulgent -- and I probably am -- I don't think anybody's going to lose their life because of it...or even get searched at the airport.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 16, 2007 12:34 PM

Echoing what Shinobi said about murder -- until 9/11 I didn't give Islam any thought. None. I have a few acquaintances who, I guess, are probably Muslim, or maybe Christians from the Middle East. I don't know what their religion is, or how they practice, or whether they practice, because I really don't care about anybody's religion -- until it people start using it to justify murdering other people.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 16, 2007 1:26 PM

> how few Muslims there are
> like Wafa Sultan

Remember, sister lives in Los Angeles.

Posted by: Crid at February 16, 2007 6:34 PM

She's an atheist, too! Which is really something else, considering her background. I'm her fan.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 16, 2007 8:24 PM

Amy: I'm Catholic. If you keep speaking out against Catholicism, you're going to end up dead, dead, DEAD...

...in the sense that we're all going to die eventually and no one gets off the globe alive.

In other words, keep speaking out against Catholicism and you'll have only, I dunno, fifty or sixty measley years left. Better get your affairs in order.

Blasted Church, I can't even threaten people convincingly. Good thing I live in a country that has nukes.

I know! I'll threaten to PRAY for you. I know you hate that. For an atheist, being blown up is nothing compared to the knowledge that somewhere, someone is praying for you, right? Right? Well, maybe not.

Imelda: If you're really trying to defend the ethics and justice of Islam, using "Because I can" as a moral justification isn't exactly helping your side. Just a word of advice.

Posted by: marion at February 16, 2007 8:40 PM

"[Do you struggle with mental illness?] Yes."

Hey, Imelda, sorry to hear that.

Posted by: Lena at February 16, 2007 9:14 PM

She didn't say it was her own.

Posted by: Crid at February 16, 2007 9:37 PM

Lena: [Hey, Imelda, sorry to hear that.]

Thanks Lena. You're the first compassionate voice I've read on this site. Cheers to you.
-Imelda.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 1:06 AM

Thanks Lena. You're the first compassionate voice I've read on this site. Cheers to you.

You might find more compassion if you didn't make assumptions about people. When you sling accusation upon accusation, you put people in the ever so pleasant position (to you, anyway) of having to defend themselves.

Amy is actually an outspoken critic of the current administration and their actions world-wide regarding this very issue. If you spent any time at all on this blog, you'd know that. I happen to think you make some very valid points about the United States and I agree that much of our society is one of "shallow consumerism and self gratification."

I am also sorry you suffer from mental illness, which is more than we have heard from you regarding your accusations that you slung like a howler monkey hurling its own feces.

By the way, what does PSML mean? You used it in the reply of yours Amy posted.

Posted by: Patrick at February 17, 2007 2:03 AM

[When you sling accusation upon accusation, you put people in the ever so pleasant position (to you, anyway) of having to defend themselves] And yet you have no objection when that is exactly what Amy does.

[I am also sorry you suffer from mental illness, which is more than we have heard from you regarding your accusations that you slung like a howler monkey hurling its own feces.] Bravo Patrick. How very poetic.

[By the way, what does PSML mean?] Pissing myself laughing.

[I don't think you believed you'd get caught, and shown up for it.]

OMG Amy hahahahahaha. I know IP addresses are visible to you. Each nick was from the same IP address. Didn't think I'd get caught or shown up??? PLEASE!!! If I didn't want to be "caught" I could have signed in from a different server each time. Shown up? Shown up for what? hahahahahaha Didn't care would be more accurate. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I really don't have much of an ego. I'm just occasionally very very angry.

(Note, I don't speak with malice, I just find that a really silly statement)

[You posted that way so as to make it seem that there were a number of people who shared your point of view. That's deceptive.] You keep second guessing my motivation. You can't read my thoughts. I didn't post that way to make it seem like a number of people shared my point of view actually. I can't begin to explain to you what my motivation was, but if was for MY amusement not yours. It actually had nothing to do with you or your readers.

[I'm not obsessed with "bagging" anyone.] No? Well it certainly comes across that way when every second blog is about Muslims.

[not a danger to the lives and freedoms of the rest of us.]Amy, don't you realise that what you're doing is a danger to the lives and freedoms of the rest of you? It isn't about being right or wrong or morally statuesque. It's about finding a solution.

[Is this getting through to you now, Imelda?]
Has anything I've said gotten through to you? I've understood from your very first post what you were saying Amy. I don't believe you have the desire to understand what I am saying.

*shrug* Unfortunately, you've only seen me at my worst. I do apologise for that. You'd probably be surprised to learn that everyone that knows me says I am the "nicest" most compassionate person they know. My shrink wrote in a report that I have the most self-insight of anyone he has ever met. And extensive testing after my brain injury showed that I still have an IQ in the top 2% of the country. I suppose you could conclude that Australians must be a pretty stupid lot. Or you might concede that there is more to me than is evident from my aggressive musings on your web site in the wee hours of the Australian morning. It doesn't really matter. My point is, I do understand what you're on about. I just happen to feel very strongly that you're going about it the wrong way. I don't understand why humans kill and fight and compete against each other for the resources of the Earth. I don't understand why some have so much why others have nothing. I don't understand greed and malice. There is enough to go around for everyone and yet not everyone gets enough to go around. I envision a very different world to the one we have now. It wouldn't take very much to achieve it. The only thing that stands in the way is human nature. But because of human nature, we are condemned to spend the rest of our days without peace. I find society futile and irrational and, most days, completely unbearable. I apologise for attacking the things I see in you that represent the things I find so abhorrent in society.


Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 4:50 AM

[So are many (not all sweet Imelda, Forest, Chester, Miranda, Judas) of the people who respond to this thought provoking, highly stimulating Advice Goddess. (That part just killed you didn't it.)]

No kg. Actually, I'm overwhelmed with indifference. There's few people on the planet whose opinion of me holds any significance with me. A few malicious syllables from a faceless, nameless entity who doesn't know anything about who or what I am doesn't phase me, I'm afraid. Perhaps you're used to dealing with people who are easily impressed *shrug* I don't know.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 4:54 AM

[You have every right to hate the U.S]

Please don't misunderstand. I don't hate the US. I have nothing against the people of the USA. People are people. We all have hopes and dreams and we all love our children. I have huge difficulties with the US Administration and certain aspects of US culture (especially corporate America). This is because their actions have a strong influence (either direct or indirect) on my life and the kind of existence I want to have. But America, as a nation of people; no I don't hate the US. There are a lot of good people in the USA. A few, I admire enormously. I admire them, however, for who they are and what they do, not because they live under an administration that is the self-imposed "leader" of the world. I'm told I'm kind of weird like that. Not much impresses me. I'm not impressed by power, position, money, status or influence. I am impressed by good deeds,compassion and quiet achievement toward the good of humanity. *shrug* What can I tell you? Weird.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 5:12 AM


"[Do you struggle with mental illness?] Yes."

Hey, Imelda, sorry to hear that.

Posted by: Lena at February 16, 2007 9:14 PM

She didn't say it was her own.

Posted by: Crid at February 16, 2007 9:37 PM

She's a deceptive woman. You can be mentally ill and still be ethical. If these are simply the ravings of a madwoman, let me know, Imelda, and I'll erase them all. I know at least two people who post here who struggle with depression. They manage to be sane and rational. In fact, I have "a mental illness" -- ADHD -- although I don't see it as a mental "illness," just as a different way of thinking; mainly because I don't choose to go through life as a victim.

And now, from Imelda:

OMG Amy hahahahahaha. I know IP addresses are visible to you. Each nick was from the same IP address. Didn't think I'd get caught or shown up??? PLEASE!!! If I didn't want to be "caught" I could have signed in from a different server each time.

I think you were careless and didn't think I'd think to check.

[You posted that way so as to make it seem that there were a number of people who shared your point of view. That's deceptive.] You keep second guessing my motivation.

What could possibly be your motivation but to deceive me and others? If I'm guessing wrong, do enlighten me. When attacked, you never respond with substance, with actual answers.

[not a danger to the lives and freedoms of the rest of us.]Amy, don't you realise that what you're doing is a danger to the lives and freedoms of the rest of you?

We still have freedom of speech in this country. It's protected, unlike in Muslim countries. Muslims over and over again say they seek to take over the world, convert the rest of us, and put us under Sharia law. I'm listening. I take them seriously. And I write about it here. With freedom comes responsibility. I'm taking responsibility to warn that we could lose everything we value to a bunch of murderous, backward nutwads.

fortunately, you've only seen me at my worst. I do apologise for that. You'd probably be surprised to learn that everyone that knows me says I am the "nicest" most compassionate person they know. My shrink wrote in a report that I have the most self-insight of anyone he has ever met. And extensive testing after my brain injury showed that I still have an IQ in the top 2% of the country. I suppose you could conclude that Australians must be a pretty stupid lot.

You really work it, don't you? I don't group people together as one unless they group themselves together, say, in an international struggle to convert or kill the rest of us.

Bragging about your IQ isn't going to cut it. You're illogical, unable to reason well, and clearly not very smart. I say that based on volumes you've written here. Tossing in the brain injury for sympathy isn't, either. A lot of people have shitty things happen to them. John Callahan, for example, who's quadraplegic. While you spill bile, he buzzes around Portland on his motorized wheelchair trying to pick up girls: "See my new shoes? I hear they're comfortable."

Back to the reason you've been sucking up lots of information about me and posting all this bile: I say that it's wrong for Muslims to murder other people in the name of religion, and I say we'd better wake up to their intentions now.

You got a problem with that?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 6:39 AM

P.S. Lena happens to be homosexual. Let's review what happens to homosexuals in those countries where "The Religion Of Peace" has a primary hold over the people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam

Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in several Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia,Pakistan,Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen.[1] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) On the other hand, Turkey has made tremendous efforts to legalize homosexuality and protect gays and lesbians from discrimination.

In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments — e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping — as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. [2] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

Perhaps, Imelda, you have better ways to spend your time -- ie, joining me in my condemnation of this sort of thing -- than posting snide personal attacks on me because I post critically on such things.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 7:57 AM

*shrug* I tried nice. That doesn't work with you either.

You say it's wrong for Muslims to murder other people in the name of religion.

I say it's wrong to murder.

I also say I am more useful to this planet than you will ever be. I've actually saved a few lives in my time.

I'm sure I'll save a few more before I'm done despite being permanently mentally and physically disabled in an accident caused by someone else's stupidity.

Spent 3 years without the use of my arm because the insurance company would only pay for that injury to be stabilised, not fixed. Missed out on 2 years of my daughter's life because I couldn't stay conscious more than a few hours at a time.

Chronic migraines and temporal lobe seizures. Able to carry a total weight of 3 kg. Personality changes including disinhibition, periods of unexplained rage, despair without cause.

Inability at times to recall common words or speak sentences or remember if my late husband is really alive or dead.

You might get a tad "irrational" at times too.

Oh and quado John... good for him. I've worked with many patients in similar circumstances. "My" John .. hemispherectomy ... half his brain completely destroyed by a massive stroke after serving overseas in the army. One half of his skull and brain removed and covered merely with his soft scalp. Completely paralysed down one side. I taught him to feed himself and speak a few basic words again. Brian, 84, hit by a Mack truck. Incomplete C3 spinal cord compression. I helped him regain the use of his arms. His simple pleasure was being able to, eventually, drink a warm coffee from a sipper cup without having the cup fall through his fingers which would no longer grasp. I almost had him cleaning his own teeth with a modified toothbrush too by the end of my rotation. I encouraged him until he was able to lift one arm enough to run a comb through the front of his hair. On my last day, he thanked me for the encouragement and compassion I showed which helped give him back his will to survive. And this was AFTER my accident.

Before my accident:
Mr. D. at deaths door. Peritonitis, unknown etiology. I found a rare parasite in his peritoneal fluid sample that no one else had recognised and everyone else had mistaken for white blood cells. Mr. D's medication changed to an antiflagellate. Mr. D made a full and complete recovery. Baby S. Septic. Lethargic. Fever of unknown origin. I found two tiny bacteria in the gram stain of her brain fluid. Meningitis. N. meningiditis. Baby S. given the appropriate antibiotic. Makes a full recovery. Multi-vehicle accident. Ten patients. Four critical. Three doctors. 1/2 an hour to stabilize, crossmatch and prepare 3 patients to be choppered out to the nearest intensive care facility. Just another ordinary day.

Nup. Not smart. Not clever. Complete victim. Ravings of a mad woman. Delete it all. Save yourself the embarrassment of anyone finding out what a complete arse you are.

You'll never change.


Bored now.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 8:13 AM

Ok Imelda,

Your outline of the problems you have with the U.S isn't too disagreeable - many of my more liberal friends (and some conservatives) agree with those points. I personally don't like the "world police" position the U.S has taken upon itself.

At the same time, however, I also feel that our country, though some of its actions are disagreeable, doesn't deserve to be a land of terrorized persons.

We do live under a government that many people dislike - many Americans and other world citizens. Given what you said - that you're "impressed by good deeds,compassion and quiet achievement toward the good of humanity"...it would only hold that you must be on the side of the average American. The average American who is baffled by the fact people want to kill us. The fundamentalists hate our lifestyle and the influence it has on their culture - so their answer to prevent the influence is to committ random acts of mass murder?!?!?!

How is that compassion or good for humanity? It is not, Imelda, and you know that and I am sure you are with me on this point....

...That is the main point Amy is pushing (you go, girl!) with her specific blog postings. She is trying to point out the inhumanity, the lack of compassion and the complete and utter wrong doings committed against mankind by these nutjobs.

Hate religion. Love religion. Hate the U.S (government, people, culture, whatever). Love the U.S. Bottom line: there are people on this planet who want nothing but to decimate an entire group of people on this planet. They would be happy to see the U.S and all of its people/culture be gone for good. THAT, Imelda, is what all of us U.S'ers are pissed off about.

Didn't someone try to do that before....actually a few people. One was Hitler - he wiped out about 6 million Jews, gays, gypsies...Don't forget Stalin...only about 22 million of his own people. And I'm pretty sure the majority of people agree that killing people like that is wrong. But hey, feel free to disagree. Fundies don't like McDonald's and Hollywood, Hitler didn't like Kosher and Sabbath. And Stalin - I'm pretty sure his reason was along the lines of "Because I can." Cool.

Just because the anti-American terrorism isn't an organized genocide committed over a short period of time doesn't make the situation here less horrendous. It is just as terrifying...I don't want to be afraid to get on the train to go to work. That isn't compassion or good for humanity, that is bullshit.

I'm American and I'm fucking pissed at these people, thinking it's ok to kill my family and friends b/c our way of life isn't compatible with theirs and their belief system.

I thought that was obvious.

Posted by: Gretchen at February 17, 2007 8:22 AM

Condemn away on your earth-shattering little blog. I'm sure you'll change the world with your Islamophobic ramblings. You tell 'em Amy. They're sure to change their ways because you said they should.

*two thumbs up for Alkon* Woot! Woot! Hero of our nation!

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 8:24 AM

I do fear Islam, and rightfully so, since there are many Muslims preaching the violent death of the rest of us for not believing in Allah, and the eventual takeover of the world and its submission under Sharia law. With Muslim birth rate vis a vis that of other populations, that's a definite possibility.

Your personal problems and sorrows are not what's being discussed. You promote yourself as rational and reasonable, then play the mental illness and disability card? Which is it?

FYI, I don't trot out for display the stuff I do to help people. Close friends know. But, I think it tacky to use it to bolster arguments on a completely different subject. What suffering you've gone through, or how great a person you may be is immaterial to the topic of Islam as a force for murder.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 8:34 AM

You know what Gretchen, I don't disagree with you and I understand completely what you're saying. The thing is, it is the actions and policies of the US that make it a target. If the US would mind it's own business and withdraw its troops from the numerous locations around the world where it is being the "world police", you'd immediately halve the danger that you perceive yourself to be in. If the US stopped telling people they MUST be a democracy and reviewed its foreign policies, there's a lot of nations that wouldn't be quite so wound up about you.

Speaking to Muslims here in just the last few days, their problem isn't with your religion or lifestyle. The overwhelming grievance that they seem to have is that the USA has been in their country for over a decade. One Muslim man said to me, "they come to our country, they kill our children, they think we should not care about this?"

Every war has two sides. The US imposed sanctions on Iraq since the first Bush administration has directly led to hundreds of thousands of deaths. They see the US as responsible for that.

The US sees them responsible for 3000 or so deaths on 9/11. Look at the revenge YOU want against THEM. Do you not suppose they might feel something similar?

This tit for tat will never solve the problem. Violence begets violence. Sure, be pissed off. I completely understand that. But understand why they are pissed off too. The solution is not criticising them on a web blog. It is releasing the need for revenge and negotiating a solution that gives both sides what they want.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 8:47 AM

[I do fear Islam, and rightfully so, since there are many Muslims preaching the violent death of the rest of us for not believing in Allah, and the eventual takeover of the world and its submission under Sharia law. With Muslim birth rate vis a vis that of other populations, that's a definite possibility.]

To the outside world, THIS is irrationable and unreasonable. The US seems, to the rest of the world, to be a neurotic, paranoid nation.

[What suffering you've gone through, or how great a person you may be is immaterial to the topic of Islam as a force for murder.]

You know what? I wasn't the one that brought it up. How great a person isn't the issue? Then don't be accusing me of being stuff that I'm not and I won't feel the need to refute it. What did your friend say.... when you attack people, they feel the need to defend themselves. That's kind of prophetic all round.

I'm going to feed my dogs and go to bed.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 8:54 AM

Imelda, I'm a critic of the US being in Iraq. That was never the point of your diatribes; it was attacking me for attacking the horrors of "The Religion Of Peace." You're just looking at a way out.

Speaking to Muslims here in just the last few days, their problem isn't with your religion or lifestyle. The overwhelming grievance that they seem to have is that the USA has been in their country for over a decade.

Oh, bullshit. Was that why they blew up the train in Spain, too?

Read Jihadwatch.com and other such sites -- and my site, for that matter -- and you'll see countless statements about how Muslims must convert or kill the rest of us as their ultimate goal.

It's a pity it didn't work out here with you coming out on top, but like many of the religious nutters, you have an inability to reason well, and perhaps that's why you resort to deception and personal attacks on me.

The point remains: We're all in great danger from any religion that preaches the violent death of all who don't believe in it, and wants to make the rest of us submit to their religious law.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 8:56 AM

Coming out on top is YOUR agenda, not mine Amy.

You tell me I'm insane and irrational and sleazy and, instead of responding to points of discussion you revert to repeating that my aim is deception and attack. I have tried to discuss the issues with you. But you're the one that keeps tossing out the one liners ridiculing me and hypothesising about what kind of person I am. Then, when I respond to those accusations, you say I am not addressing the topic.
You bleat on about my personal attacks on you, but your personal attacks on me and anyone who disagrees with you are ok.

You have the gall to call ME irrational and unable to reason.


*shrug*

As long as you're happy.

Good luck to you.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 9:11 AM

Don't go, Imelda! You've found a home here!

Posted by: Crid at February 17, 2007 9:44 AM

I have to say you two deserve each other. Amy and Imelda, both like dogs to a one, each unable to fathom that someone else might have a brain and still disagree with her, each full of self-importance, trotting out the good she does in the world or her personal woes when it helps her argument. I was sure Amy had the market on self-righteousness until Imelda came along. This thread could go on forever, since each of you always has to have the last word. I've never seen Amy let anyone have final say on any subject. I sense Imelda is much the same. Maybe for all your differences you two were actually separated at birth. Have at me now, girls. It's what you do.

Posted by: Basta at February 17, 2007 12:23 PM

I of course meant dogs to a bone. Keyboard issues.

Posted by: basta at February 17, 2007 12:24 PM

I of course meant dogs to a bone. Keyboard issues.

Posted by: basta at February 17, 2007 12:25 PM

Imelda, just out of curiosity, I'd like to ask you about this:

"...it is the actions and policies of the US that make it a target. If the US would mind it's own business and withdraw its troops from the numerous locations around the world where it is being the "world police", you'd immediately halve the danger that you perceive yourself to be in."

If the U.S withdraws: Do you REALLY think that the culture being perpetuated by religion will allow their hatred for the U.S to subside?

Is it really all about American foreign policy? Or does the issue also have something to do with the immense force of cultural globalism which spreads "our" ideas? If we withdrew right now, do you believe that action wouldn’t have its own set of repercussions? I feel that we’ve made a mess and we need to clean it up before we go.

I totally agree with your "world police" issue - maybe if everyone minded their own business it would be more peaceful. (But let's remember, the U.S isn't the first "world police" force the world has seen.) But on the other hand, maybe "they" would hate us just as much b/c of our culture and its unstoppable penetration. It’s hard to say.

And finally - I also agree with your opinion that we cannot force democracy on other nations, I am not convinced that it is any country's duty to bring democracy to other nations. But a person, a woman, a human being - it sickens me that there are other women who ARE oppressed. As i stated earlier, I don't believe it's the Muslim dress that is the real oppressor, I believe it's the fact that the women aren't allowed to choose to be a part of that culture, or reject it. Many don't even know of other ways to live. In most countries, you know of different lifestyles and have the right to choose.

That isn't American. That isn't a world police attitude. That is simply BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. It a basic human right to be safe from the harm of others - especially your own family. Being beaten by your husband isn't a right bestowed by their legal system and religion...it is a blatant violation of human rights. This isn’t political philosophy – it’s moral philosophy. As a person, I DO want to pick a fight with people who disregard an entire gender by whatever means of justification they use – in this case it happens to be a religion. No human life is more important that another and no one should have to live in fear…I don’t want young Iraqi children to fear my culture any more than I’d want my future children to fear theirs. And theirs IS to be feared by the simple fact that their culture says that it’s “ok” to kill. Most Americans don’t feel that the death in this “war” is “ok”, and we definitely don’t allow murder within our culture (but in theirs, they can kill women for not being virgins when they get married.)

Regardless of U.S presence in the Middle East, the women of fundamentalist Islam are totally at the mercy of their oh-so-superior men. The women were not the only ones being oppressed by the Islamo-fascist governments either, they’re just the example I’ve used.

But don’t worry, we’re going to have a Dem running the country pretty soon b/c most Americans want to see a big change in the administration…

Ciao

Posted by: Gretchen at February 17, 2007 12:36 PM

Gretchen, I like what you write.

Imelda wrote, -One Muslim man said to me, "they come to our country, they kill our children, they think we should not care about this?"-

The US has no policy to kill children. The US shows a great amount of restraint in military operations. If we wanted to, I'm sure we could rack up some impressive civilian casualty numbers.

One problem is the enemy hides amongst the populace, and mistakes are made. Who are you going to blame?

-The US imposed sanctions on Iraq since the first Bush administration has directly led to hundreds of thousands of deaths. They see the US as responsible for that.-

This is just screed. The sanctions were the biggest sieve in history (ever heard of Oil for Food?). Saddam Hussein is responsible for those deaths. If anyone believes the US is responsible, they are wrong.

Posted by: doombuggy at February 17, 2007 3:23 PM

[Your personal problems and sorrows are not what's being discussed. ]

Actually, upon reflection Amy, they are. This thread was all about ME, remember, not Muslims.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 6:29 PM

Been out much of the day -- here's a reply from earlier that I couldn't get to post (Wifi went down):

Imelda: I never said you were insane. How could I? That's a clinical diagnosis I'm not equipped to make, and even if I were equipped to make it, I couldn't make that diagnosis based solely on a person's postings on a website.

There's proof of your irrationality in much of what you post; ie, cracks about me, my medication, or my dog, are not a logical response to my contention that the West is in danger from the spread of terrorist Islam. Your sleaziness is evident in your deceptively posting in a number of names, as well as your style of personal attacks as a method of attempting to win a debate.

I consider personal attacks to be a low blow and a substandard form of debate. Thus, I don't personally attack you; I attack your reasoning and deception based on what you write. I don't know who you are and I don't care -- I look only at what you put on the page for me to read. You, on the other hand, seem to have done copious reading about me to aid you in your attacks. FYI, I'm open about my life because I'm comfortable with it -- down to the fact that I take Ritalin for ADHD. And, frankly, as I've said before, I’m actually most stunned by what you don’t write, and what you criticize me for writing: criticism of Muslims who believe in the submission or slaughter of “infidels” in the name of Islam.

As for "Basta," if you think it's a good idea to ignore the growing threat of Muslim violence and the substitution of western values for Sharia law, perhaps you'll be protected by those of us who do speak out.

Moreover, I have comments on this site precisely so people can disagree with me. Through open discussion, debate, and disagreements, I think we learn something. Just this week, there have been a number of posts where both Lena and I marveled at the substance of the discussion that started from small items I blogged.

Furthermore, when I'm wrong, very smart people like Crid and Rad kick my ass. I enjoy it when it happens...well, sort of. Anyway, it keeps me on my toes.

P.S. Gretchen gets it.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 6:30 PM

[The US has no policy to kill children.]

Doombuggy, the US has no policy to kill allied troops either, but it happens. The US has no policy to rape and murder Iraqi citizens either, but it happens.

I feel your line between policy and reality may be a little blurred. But I understand the point you are trying to make.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 6:32 PM

In response to Imelda's post just above mine: The thread was about your behavior and what you said in the discussion. You brought in the stuff about mental illness, and what a faaaaabulous person you are, and disabilities -- perhaps in hopes of using yet another sneaky way to "win" here. Only because you told us it was relevant did we take it into consideration.

The fact remains: You've posted here deceptively, hatefully, and by attacking me when the subject was the spread of violent Islam.

You have yet to post critical words about that. I guess you were too busy arming yourself for another personal attack by reading up on the life and times of my dog.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 17, 2007 6:35 PM

[it sickens me that there are other women who ARE oppressed.]

Gretchen, I value the points you have raised. Thank you for discussing these issues with me. It also sickens me that other women are oppressed. I agree completely that many human rights abuses around the world need to be addressed. And the more people from around the world that appeal peacefully for change the better. It is difficult, however, to accept US international policy demanding the cessation of human rights abuses in other countries, when the US administration itself thumbs its nose at UN directives and international human rights regulations such as the Geneva convention. (eg. Guantanamo bay)

I, personally, believe everyone has the right to practice their own religion. Having said that, I also believe it is important for those religions to be practiced without human rights abuses. Fine, protest the elements of Sharia law that are unacceptable on humanitarian grounds. I don't have a problem with that. But cultural beliefs associated with Islam that do not violate human rights are really nobody's business but their own. We may believe women should be allowed to drive. Prohibiting someone from driving does not cause them any direct harm. Should women be stoned to death for religious transgressions? Absolutely not! Should American citizens be executed for crimes either? Many people don't believe should happen either. Adultery, in our eyes, isn't as bad as murdering someone. But that belief is based on our culture. If execution is to be outlawed as a criminal punishment, then it must be outlawed as a punishment for ALL crimes around the world. We cannot pick and choose. Currently, Australia has citizens incarcerated in Bali on drugs charges. A number of them face execution. Others will spend life in prison under conditions which are appalling by our own standards. But, they committed the crimes in Bali, and the general consensus is that they knew the penalties and chose to break the law anyway. One could argue that Muslims know Sharia law. Therefore, if they wish to avoid the penalties, they should not break the law. (note: this is not my personal position). There must be global universality, not just a campaign against Islam. Every culture, every country, has practices that seem unjust and/or unfair to other nations. However, we cannot pick one in isolation and demand that it change without examining our own system for flaws.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 6:51 PM

[since each of you always has to have the last word. ]

Basta, I understand how it may look that way to you. I am all for discussion. And, in fact, I have found points raised by others on this blog to be well thought out and equally well discussed and I have enjoyed reading their point of view.

My difficulty with Amy is not that she has a different point of view. It is that, in my opinion, she has to ridicule and attack others in expressing her point of view. Initially, I was attempting to give her a taste of her own medicine and, predictably, she didn't like the flavour. "Discussion" with her, since that time has been unproductive. I did try to explain that I have have difficulty with control and anger at times due to a brain injury which affects my behaviour. I did not offer this as an excuse, but as an explanation and I actually apologised for my unreasonable behaviour. You might note an obvious change in my style of writing at the moment given that I am controlled and "rational". I am more than open to discussion and I rarely need to have the last word. But where I am attacked, I will respond as I am not a submissive person. I do, however, thank you for your comments Basta. Sometimes when we stumble down the path of pig-headedness we need someone to steady our gait.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 6:59 PM

[-- perhaps in hopes of using yet another sneaky way to "win" here.]

Please, again Amy, do not anticipate my motivation based on your own position. It is not about "winning". If you see this as a competition, then you have the ultimate power as you can always delete anything I post. It would be foolish to think I could "win" against you when you are completely in control of this site.

I was asked if I had mental health problems. I answered.

You accused me of being a particular type of person. I gave evidence to demonstrate otherwise.

YOU created a this blog calling me deceptive and sleazy.

Did you not anticipate that I would refute those allegations?

I am more than happy to discuss any topic at hand. It is you that keeps digressing towards my alleged motivations and personal characteristics.

Right now, however, I must rest.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 7:12 PM

[as well as your style of personal attacks as a method of attempting to win a debate.]

Actually Amy, I wasn't attempting to win a debate. I was just venting my rage against you when I was in an uncontrolled state. The multiple names I gave were not an attempt at deceit. They were names I gave to the comical (in my head anyway) characters that I imagined saying those words, each with its own accent and agenda. (I told you it wouldn't make sense to you). My motivation was completely internal. It was intended to make ME feel better, not to influence anyone else's opinion. With several comments posted within moments of each other from the same IP address, I never expected (or cared) that anyone would think each comment was genuinely from another person.
I can't do anything if you refuse to believe my explanation. It is, however, the truth.

I will apologise again now, if it will help you move on.

Amy, I am sometimes not in control of my faculties due to mental illness and brain injury. I am prone to unreasonable outbursts of rage. I made some personal comments about you at times when I was in an uncontrolled state. I know it was wrong to make those comments. I know my comments may have caused offence or distress.

Amy, I unreservedly apologise for the nasty and personal comments I made towards you. I hope you can find it within yourself to accept my explanation and my apology.

Posted by: Imelda at February 17, 2007 7:22 PM

I haven't been around for awhile, and this has bordered on the completely bizarre.

Posted by: Brenda at February 19, 2007 6:39 AM

I never said you were insane. How could I? That's a clinical diagnosis I'm not equipped to make, and even if I were equipped to make it, I couldn't make that diagnosis based solely on a person's postings on a website.

There's proof of your irrationality in every post, and your sleaziness in your deceptively posting in a number of names.

I consider personal attacks a substandard method of debate. It's clear from a number of the posts you've left on my site, you've read volumes about me to find what you perceive as "weak spots" -- like the fact that I take Ritalin, so you could use them to get at me. Sorry, but I've revealed that I take Ritalin because I see no reason to be ashamed of it, and the fact that I take it and/or how I look is immaterial to the discussions of Islam at hand.

I don't personally attack you; I attack your reasoning and deception based on what you write. I’m most stunned by what you don’t write, and what you criticize me for writing: criticism of Muslims who believe in the submission or slaughter of “infidels” in the name of Islam.

As for "Basta," if you think it's a good idea to ignore the growing threat of Muslim violence and the substitution of western values for Sharia law, perhaps you'll be protected by those of us who do speak out.

Moreover, I have comments on this site precisely so people can disagree with me. Through open discussion, debate, and disagreements, I think we learn something. Just this week, there have been a number of posts where both Lena and I marveled at the substance of the discussion that started from small items I blogged.

Furthermore, when I'm wrong, very smart people like Crid and Rad will kick my ass. I enjoy it when it happens. Imelda hasn't done much but spew, however. Personal attacks on me don't answer the question as to whether we're in danger from Islamic terrorism and what we might do about it.

P.S. Gretchen gets it.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 19, 2007 10:19 AM

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