Well I think that even the average white person wants to be involved with the police as little as possible. They are not my friends, they give me tickets for stupid things, and if they find the one joint in my posession they'll lock me up for as long as possible. Seeing cop cars on the street is somewhat comforting, as long as they don't slow down in front of my house. So I will avoid taking things to the police for as long as possible.

I can only imagine how long I would wait to go to the police if myself or friends of mine had been harassed by police because of my race.

I agree that it is pretty stupid to give the community over to criminals. However I don't think that you can ignore that the police are not always nice guys. First off there is still a perception of racial profiling, and I'm confident it still takes place. So helping the "don't snitch" mentality is definetly the "what if they turn it back on me" mentality. Secondly cops are not nice guys, they protect eachother when others make mistakes (Especially here in Chicago), they have their very own "don't snitch" mentality. Third I think the war on pot is not helping this problem. I think it distracts police from the work of protecting the citizens and turns a lot of innocent citizens into the enemy, for something really minor.

If I meet a cop, I'll ask him/her about their work, and they are invariably polite and willing to give advice (like: a typical burglar is a desperate junkie who is willing to take a gun from a homeowner; said cop did not say whether the burglar would also shoot the homeowner; my guess is the perp doesn't want to add assault or murder to a burglary conviction).

I'm racist: whenever I see someone with an epicanthic fold wearing good clothes, I assume they're an overachiever.

If I meet a cop, I'll ask him/her about their work

When I meet a cop, it's the cop who asks the questions.

You sort of implied that blacks are immigrants up there.

SOrt of reminds me of the last episode, first season of The Wire. A young black man could have testified against the drug cartel he'd been a part of and gotten into WItness Protection, moved a million miles away and started over, and his mother talks him out of it by telling him that if he's not with family, he ain't got shit (not in those words). ANd he goes to spend the rest of his life in jail, for the family whose activities put him there.
Scott Sonnon wrote that the strongest human drive isn't self-preservation, it's the need to belong to a tribe of some kind.

Matt Taibbi wrote a very good article for Rolling Stone (available online) where he points out that Whitey (his words) doesn't have to call blacks whores, thugs, ignorant, or slaves to their passions anymore, they do it to themselves in rap music. As he said, Snoop Dog and Don Imus make the same jokes about blacks for the same reason, Snoop just doesn't get, or doesn't care, that the jokes also on him.

Look at the history. Dogs, fire hoses, clubs, guns, rope. Look at the present. For all of the people sitting on death row, roughly 85% of the victims are white. There is more violent murders of black people than any other race every year in the U.S. That indicates to me that the criminal justice system values white life over non-white life. I wonder what percentage of this nation's prosecutors are white? I would reckon the percentage in the 90's. And of course prosecutors are the one's who decide whether a case will be tried as a capital offense or not. Giving the community to criminals is not smart; but, if I were black, I wouldn't trust cops.

Sorry, 'joke's' is what I meant to say.

And re the average white person and the police, the average white person may well see the police as a buzzkill who'll get on him for one lousy joint or a few miles over the limit, but they sure as hell want them there when someone's breaking in the downstairs window, or after the stereo's gone.
Police, at least in big cities, have a job that would take the most bleeding-heart caring liberal and have them gritting "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" by the end of the day. I do not envy them their jobs. This isn't to excuse them abusing their power when they do, but they're often in a no-win situation in the inner city.

kg and others like him seem to be under the impression that the police are the problem in black neighborhoods. The real problem is that blacks are overwhelmingly a criminal class. Before you get all jumpy and angry just realize they have been strongly assisted in this development by white liberals who have elevated the pimp. gangster whore culture to a social icon. (While safely avoiding it..leaving the task of dealing with it to those so poor they have to live with it.)
Further, disgusting social habits are not new among blacks. (Though admittedly they are worse now than they were half a century ago).One of the dominant reasons for the expansion of the suburbs in post WWII America was that white ethnics wanted to get away from the dangers of the infusion of blacks assisted by the notorious "block busters"encouraged by Sol Alinsky.
They were reasonable to want to get away.
That blacks are overrepresented in jails is because they are more criminal. That 90% of prosecuting attorneys are "white" (or at least not black is obvious. Not only is that ratio an accurate refelction of the proportion of blacks in the spociety. The ratio would be far more disproportionate if blacks were not given a pass all the way through school and assisted to get through law school.
The reality is that cultural and moral relativism, the denigration of Christianity, the ascent of mindless
Marxist and other half a..ed social theories and the accompanying white guilt have all conspired to aid in criminalizing and "spupidifying" the black part of our culture.
And now to top it off endlessly inept white liberals rush to attack the rest of what is left of competence and moral solidness in the US.
Even when I was in graduate school, and that was forty years ago,I could walk down the halls of classroom buildings and looking in through the door tell you which classes were serious academic ones and which were mere social science slop or junk courses. If there were a lot of Asian faces and apparent Jewish ones and none or nearly no blacks they were serious courses.
The obverse was also true, black faces, Amerindians and Latinos meant it was a junk course.
Remember not all cultures are equal.

You sort of implied that blacks are immigrants up there.

Thanks -- should've read "various immigrant communities"

Hey, Amy, I know I've been a bit out of touch, has this 'Snow Captain' been posting much? In the original German?

I'd like to see where white liberals elevate pimp gangsterish whores as social icons. That must have been quite an issue of The Nation. Christianity has never been too quick to champion the advancement of the black race, and yesterday's clear, hard morals kept the blacks separate and in the back of the bus, you know, where they knew their place.

Hey, Snow Captain. You're a real can o' worms now, aren't you? Or a ray of... sludge... that just splurted onto my lily white liberal world. Gotta go clean up now. Buh bye.

I'd like to see where white liberals elevate pimp gangsterish whores as social icons.

In Hollywood maybe? In movies and rap labels?

"For all of the people sitting on death row, roughly 85% of the victims are white. There is more violent murders of black people than any other race every year in the U.S. That indicates to me that the criminal justice system values white life over non-white life."

Really? Because most murders are committed by someone the victim knows, and given that we all frequently tend to self-segregate in regards to the people we hang out with/mate with/etc., that means that the majority of murder victims are killed by people of the same ethnicity that they are. Which would mean that, in order to put more murderers of black people on Death Row, we would have to put more black people on Death Row. Is anyone going to try to tell me that we have too few black people on Death Row in the U.S.?

(I'm not pulling this out of my ass, BTW - studies that have been done of the death row system in the U.S. have shown that yes, you are more likely to be sentenced to death if you kill a white person, or a child. However, since the vast majority of murders of white people are carried out by other white people, while the vast majority of murders of black people are carried out by other black people, equalizing the system would put *more* black people on Death Row. Ah, the ironies of life.)

God knows I'm not going to argue that the justice system contains no hint of racism...but this is a particularly poor example to choose to make one's point.

As for the "snitching" thing, this is one area where I think I'm Just Not Like Normal People, because I've never understood the idea that "snitching" is a moral wrong. Have I refused to "tell on" friends and get them in trouble? Sure, for minor stuff. But I know that someone has committed a robbery, or abused a child? Just call me a snitch, baby.

> Snoop just doesn't get, or doesn't
> care, that the jokes also on him.

Only if you think he thinks of himself, or his extended family, as niggers (or whatnot). Do you think of yourself as Whitey? Me neither, though I'm Caucasian.

Do you move through the world speaking for, and representing the decency of, all white men? Or all men?

> Even when I was in graduate
> school, and that was forty years
> ago,I could walk down the halls

Cat Brother well send you a check for $20 if you tell us what you were studying in grad school, whether you graduated, and how you've made a living in the decades since.

I'd like to see where white liberals elevate pimp gangsterish whores as social icons.
"In Hollywood maybe? In movies and rap labels?"

In mainstream Hollywood movies, black thugs, when represented, get killed and go to jail. THe only movies they're lionized in are those godawful straight-to-video movies that star Master P or other gangsta rappers. ANyway, white liberals don't run Hollywood, as AMy can tell you, it's the Jews, when they're not running the Federal REserve and implementing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Amy gets a check from them bi-monthly. THis information brought to us by our spy Gregg, also known as The Man From G.O.Y. (Gentile On Yer back). Courage, Gregg!

THis image is indeed lauded in popular music labels that produce rap, but they're no more white liberal in mindset than they are Theravada Buddhist, they're capitalists, and calculate what'll make money.

Snoop just doesn't get, or doesn't
> care, that the joke's also on him.
Only if you think he thinks of himself, or his extended family, as niggers (or whatnot).
The point here was, racial stereotypes that once were seen as offensive and degrading, and lowering the image of a certain group, in this case blacks, are being promulgated by that same group. SNoop may be rich, but because of his self-promotion of himself as a constantly-stoned, violent, pussy-seeking pimp (I seem to recall he re-invented himself as a pimp, vs a gangsta proper, a few years ago), the average person outside his circle may envy him his money but wouldn't want him in the house. Those who dress, act, and look like him, get (excuse the expression) tarred with the same brush.

I graduated from a 4-year grad degree in traditional Chinese medicine in '02, and have made a very nice living since, although primarily as a personal trainer. Send that 20 along, but sign it, I may frame it.

Was it "Cat brother will send you 20 bucks..." or was it "Cat brother, we'll send you 20 bucks..."?

Off the top of my head, Hustle and Flow was mainstream. I'm sure I can find others. Hollywood producers and execs are overwhlemingly white and overwhlemingly liberal. You can argue about whether movies drive demand or merely respond to it, but I suspect there's at least some of the former going on.

> Was it "Cat

Damn typos ruin everything... It was supposed to be "will."

Is there any reason to think Snoop WANTS to be "in the house"? Why can't you see him as just a guy pursuing his own interests? Why does he in particular have to carry the burden of other people's race attitudes?

> get (excuse the expression)
> tarred with the same brush.

There's extra energy in there, both in the "tarred" thing and in the idea that people represent their races whether they mean to or not, so therefore stereotyping can be excused as fait accompli.

These are silly, shabby little men. I've always been appalled by the coarse stupidity of a guy called Ice T. Yes, he promotes wretched stereotypes by exploiting them to his own advantage, but he does so just as Debbie Reynolds did a few decades earlier, It's enough to dislike him for being lame, I don't have to dislike him for being lame and black.

"You can argue about whether movies drive demand or merely respond to it, but I suspect there's at least some of the former going on."

I suspect, kishke, it also depends whether one watched Hustle & Flow in a contemptuously pissy mood, or not - ditto with listening to the theme song.

I think there's another important factor in this whole "not cooperating with the police" thing -- namely, fear of reprisal. There was a story in New Orleans (pre-Katrina) where some thugs strolled into a full classroom at a public high school, shot some kid full of bullets, strolled out, and nobody saw a thing. Anyone who dared identify the perpetrator would become the next victim. Or so the story went.

And this "Uncle Tom" shit has got to stop. This term seems to apply to any black person who cooperates with authorities, or tries to improve their lives through education, or becomes successful, or integrates with white society in any way. Like Amy said, who needs racism? The risk of being ostracized within your own community for trying to better yourself is a better means of keeping the black man down than all the fire hoses in Alabama.

Well, Hustle and Flow wasn't mainstream Hollywood, it started as an indie SUndance movie, won the audience award, and got limited release. If it hadn't made a splash at Sundance, we'd have never heard of it. And that's what the Hollywood Machine does, puts stuff out that it thinks will make money, liberal attitudes have nothing to do with it.

"Is there any reason to think Snoop WANTS to be "in the house"? Why can't you see him as just a guy pursuing his own interests? Why does he in particular have to carry the burden of other people's race attitudes?"
No, I'm quite sure Snoop doesn't want to be in the house, and that he couldn't care less about anything but his own interests. THis is my point - Amy wrote that the majority of the inner-city black community has attitudes and mores that are septic to their own community. Gangsta rappers are carrying on a modern day minstrel show, which does affect how other races see them, and it's not in a good way. They do it for money, and they're put out there by a (mostly) white machine that also (mostly) only cares about making money.

To quote Taibbi -
"Satan himself couldn't have designed a more effective vehicle for marginalizing black culture than modern hip-hop. In the early days rap music was scary social commentary; it was raw and real and it vividly described a violent street culture that white people didn't know about and didn't want to know about. But very quickly rap turned into a multibillion-dollar industry in which the same corporate behemoths who sold us crap like Garth Brooks and boy bands and Britney Spears made massive profits selling a stylized, romanticized version of black misery to white kids in the suburbs.

That was bad enough, but even worse was the way black politicians and black intellectuals so easily bought into the idea that these endless video images of gun-toting, ho-slapping black men with fat wallets, rock-hard tattooed abs and fully-accessorized rides were positive living symbols of "black empowerment" and "black manhood." Like Tupac was the next Malcolm or something.
(snip)
Pop Quiz: Where did the practice of calling all black women, and especially black women who are not actual prostitutes, hos? I seem to remember a line from Boyz n the Hood where some girl complains to Ice Cube about his habit of calling all women bitches. "Oh, I'm sorry, ho!" is the answer. Laughs all around. When the Imus thing hit, we heard Snoop Dogg explain that the difference between rappers using the word "ho" and Don Imus using it is that unlike "old-ass white men" like Imus, rappers are "not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports. We're talking about hos that's in the 'hood that ain't doing shit." Oh, I get it, Snoop -- you were satirizing the hos and bitches. You obviously checked the crowd to make sure nobody had a degree when you did your "So all the niggaz and the bitches, raise your muthafuckin hands in the air!" act. And it was satire when Ludacris did his thing: "but hos dont feel so sad and blue/cuz most of us niggaz is hos too."

People say that Don Imus isn't funny, but let's face it, there is a joke in all of this. It's a joke on the black community. And the joke is this: white people don't even have to call black people niggers and bitches and whores anymore. They do it for us. From Whitey's point of view that's a hell of a punchline. The mistake Imus made was saying it out loud.

As for the people who say there's no connection between hip-hop and what Imus said, they're out of their minds. Without Ludacris and 50 Cent and "We Luv Deez Hoez," Don Imus doesn't even know what a ho is. The unspoken truth about the Imus story is that there is no difference at all between what Imus does and what Snoop Dogg does. They both get paid to make ethnic slurs. In this case they both use the same one, one stealing from the other. The only difference is that Snoop doesn't know the joke is on him, too."

" get (excuse the expression)
> tarred with the same brush.
There's extra energy in there, both in the "tarred" thing

No, there isn't. It was the first expression that came to mind, I was in a hurry, and it fit the situation. If I'd been speechwriting, I would have cogitated 'till I found something less misconstrue-able.
I thought here of making a comment about you being overly niggardly with your praise, but, nah.

and in the idea that people represent their races whether they mean to or not, so therefore stereotyping can be excused as fait accompli."
Famous public figures who claim to represent large parts of their particular groups, as gangsta rappers usually do with poor black people in the inner city, do end up representing their groups, at least in part. Gangsta rap came up claiming to be the authentic voice of the city, the 'Black CNN.' And it has since been cynically co-opted by big conglomerates who use this edgy feel to make money.
Some stereotyping is thus a fait accompli. If you dress and comport yourself like a music video gangsta rapper whose main self-stated attributes are conspicuous consumption, disregard for life, his own and others', and a willingness to execute violence on anyone who crosses him, you can't complain if you're regarded with trepidation.
Once again, the joke's on you, you're making your own life harder, much like those who tolerate and often lionize criminals in their community and refuse to cooperate with the police.

mg,

You obviously missed the point. If we are going to utilize capital punishment, then utilize it across the board in the same way. If more blacks kill, then more blacks need to be on death row. What is ironic about that?

Crid,
"It's enough to dislike him for being lame, I don't have to dislike him for being lame and black."

Exactly.

And I'll send 20 bucks as well to find out the credentials of total white boy, Snow Captain. The screen name itself must make him hard. Ooooh all those superior, self-absorbed beliefs.....must make him feel so powerful....mmmmmm.

How about country artists who pretend to be rednecks for 2 hours playing hillbilly elevator music for their clueless fans then take the Gulfstream back to the mansion? The vocalists (even headliners) and musicians are NEVER allowed to show virtuosity.

I like how liberals in Hollywood are blamed for the black communities problems same way they are blamed for girls having anorexia. Damn you Hollywood! Damn you for making life a little more bearable.

"And I'll send 20 bucks as well to find out the credentials of total white boy, Snow Captain. The screen name itself must make him hard. Ooooh all those superior, self-absorbed beliefs.....must make him feel so powerful....mmmmmm"

And I'll bet another $20 that when he was picking his name, it was a tossup between Snow Captain and 'The White Lion."

This really chaps my ass: "Well I think that even the average white person wants to be involved with the police as little as possible."

That sure doesn't keep people from squealing for the police at every opportunity - look at the idiot who called them because Amy asked her to turn down her stereo. A large number of people expect the police to risk their lives on their behalf. Now, how smart are you to ask a perfect stranger to do that?

Haven't you ever wondered where we get cops? From your neighborhood! They are ordinary people. Now, what do you think happens to them when you hide, and the only contact they have is other cops and the criminals? That's right: they develop a contempt for the clueless people they (partially, because it is impossible to do more) protect. Way to go!

And the crime issue with black people isn't new at all. Check out, "Race War Will Continue Until We Can Talk About It Honestly", published in The Orlando Sentinel, November 5, 1998:

-----

"If there is a race war going on, as some black intellectuals have contended, it is being waged by blacks against whites. Let's look at some hard numbers compiled by the U.S. Justice Department and published in the November/December issue of The American Enterprise magazine.

Blacks, who are less than one-eighth (sic) of the U.S. population (12.6 percent in 1995 to be exact), commit more than one-third of all serious crimes. In the statistics published for 1991 by the Justice Department one finds:

There were 100 rapes committed by whites against blacks but 20,204 rapes committed by blacks against whites.

As for robberies, 7,031 involved a white perpetrator and a black victim while 167,924 robberies involved a black perpetrator and a white victim.

White assaults of blacks were 49,800, but black assaults of whites were 431,670.

In the category of all violent crimes, only 55,301 involved white perpetrators and black victims; 572,458 violent crimes involved black perpetrators and white victims.

Now, what inferences may be fairly drawn from these numbers?

One is certainly that both the federal government and the news media are hypocritical. I cannot recall a federal prosecution of a black for a hate crime against a white, yet both the federal government and the news media seize on any incident of white crime against blacks to perpetuate the myth that white Americans are virulently racist.

A history professor recently pointed out that the stabbing death of an 82-year-old Alexandria, La., woman barely got mentioned in the news -- despite the fact that the four black killers admitted that they chose her ``because she was white.'' That's not a hate crime? Why didn't the president comment on that? How come the national television networks didn't put that on the evening news, do specials and invite Rolodex experts to proclaim how ingrained black racism is against whites?

This huge disparity between white-on-black and black-on-white crime is the elephant at the tea party that both the press and the federal government pretend they can't see. They are vile hypocrites.

Another inference that can be fairly drawn is that pizza drivers and others who decline to deliver in some black neighborhoods at night may not be, as they are accused of being, racist. They are just prudent.

I can tell you that many white liberal journalists and politicians, quick to pronounce self-righteous judgments in these cases, are themselves afraid to go into those neighborhoods at night. Heck, there are neighborhoods the police are afraid to go into.

Furthermore, if there is any racism in the court system, it favors blacks, not whites. Conviction rates are lower for blacks than they are for whites in 12 of 14 felony categories tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, according to Enterprise magazine.

America has become an intellectually dishonest nation. No one wishes to talk honestly about race and a lot of other subjects. Gun control is, in part, an effort to avoid honest talk about crime. By the way, in 1994, a firearm was present at only 12 percent of the violent crimes committed in America. Crime is a people problem, not a hardware problem, and more than a third of it is a problem located among 13 percent of the population.

There is a lot more racist rhetoric and hate speech coming out of black mouths today than there is coming out of white mouths. There is not a single white racist anywhere who has any national following in the United States. You cannot say that about black racists.

Just remember, no problem is ever solved until it's correctly and honestly defined."

[Posted in the Orlando Sentinal Online 11/04/98 8:57 PM EST]

-----

There are those who yell about "profiling", and to some extent it is justified. But if you are looking for a predator, you look for obvious distinguishing features in given circumstances.

When you look at a person, what are they?

"You obviously missed the point. If we are going to utilize capital punishment, then utilize it across the board in the same way. If more blacks kill, then more blacks need to be on death row."

As we've seen from the article mentioned in Amy's post and as backed up by just about everyone posting here, blacks are far, far less likely than whites to tell the police what they know. I'm assuming this is triple-y true in capital murder cases. Despite what my beloved "CSI" would have you believe, most cases that are solved still rely heavily on actual police work, not just DNA et al...and let's not forget that, not infrequently, information from witnesses et al helps lead the police to more evidence. If police are, on average, working with less information when blacks are killed than they are when whites are killed, then I would hope that there WOULD be fewer black killers on death row, because the alternative is, uh, "creative" police work, and I'd rather have people on death row who are most definitely guilty. But maybe that's just me.

At any rate, arguing that we are a racist society because *black murderers are less likely to be on death row than white murderers* strikes me as missing a pretty big point in and of itself. But hey, YMMV.

Okay, Radwaste.

I checked out your article "Race War Will Continue Until We Can Talk About It Honestly" pasted here.

So then, what should we do?

The "honest" talk takes us to what next step?

2nd time in one day to agree with Jody.

> America has become an
> intellectually dishonest
> nation

Bzzzt!

What is "intellectual dishonesty?" Prager used to prattle about it too, but that was years and years ago... Maybe he's come around since then. I think saying that it's intellectual --and not just dishonest-- offers a twofer in terms of being condescending. It says "If I happened to be carrying my HP Dualcore Laptop running Powerpoint software under Vista Ultimate and my laser pointer, I could take everyone to the Eisenhower Room down at the Sheraton Conference Center and give a presentation which would explain all the nuanced, intimidating reasons why this is 'intellectual', and not just a lie. But I think that by now I've convinced you that I have a college degree. And you, dear reader, are not going to call my bluff, because you want to pretend to be smart, too. So it's time to get on with the clucking. Join me now, won't you?"

When "intellectual dishonesty" goes out on Saturday night, it probably drinks beer with "critical thinking," another shabby notion that's been discussed in these comments.

And what does "has become" mean? Orlando isn't just a big city in Florida, it's a YOUNG big city. So why is this guy trying to come off like Father Time, and implying that back in the day, ever'buddy in this country told the truth?

And yet another hit from Amy's comments in days of yore: The teenage fascination with hypocrisy, and the fun had in deploring it. Black crime may be grimmer that white crime, but black life is also grimmer than white life, for reasons having little to do with black character. It would be neat if we could fix that at the same time that we fix law enforcement to give everyone a childishly fulfilling sense of simplistic order. But in the meantime, being "intellectually dishonest" brings a lot of comfort to a lot of people.

Me, for example. In an adjacent comment, I had fun mocking the Baldwins for naming their kid Ireland. Zappa used to catch hell for naming his kids Moon and Dweezil, but would always point out that it was their LAST name that would get them in trouble with their peers: "Your Dad is that long-haired crazy guy...."

And then there's famed showbiz Libertarian Penn Jillette, who named his kid Moxie Crimefighter Jillette. I love him for that, because he's got the kind of character that's going to shelter his daughter from any bad consequences -- if only by giving her a fabulous sense of humor.

And yet I'm distressed when urban American blacks name their children Loquatia and LaPrell, imagining the difficulty those kids will have getting their resumes considered in twenty years when Asians have named their kids Brian and Kimberly.

Is it racist? Maybe, but I feel sheltered by hypocrisy (the "intellectual dishonesty.")

> There is not a single white
> racist anywhere who has any
> national following in the
> United States.

Oh puhleeze. I bet there are thousands. They just don't have followings AS RACISTS. I sincerely believe this is a better condition. I don't so much care what hazards lurk in people's hearts as long as they have the good sense to keep it to themselves. It's that ol' Int/Dis again.

> Just remember, no problem
> is ever solved until it's
> correctly and honestly
> defined.

Oh yeah? Says who? And to who's satisfaction? This is the sort of sputtering we heard a lot of two weeks ago during the Imus thang. "Hey, he was just saying it in contemporary terms..." People who have all this racial ENERGY, if not race hatred, quake with fear (and poorly-phrased arguments) when people who've moved beyond the problem --or merely want to-- tell them to just shut the fuck up.

I think they should shut the fuck up.

More! More!

> Oh, I get it, Snoop --
> you were satirizing
> the hos and bitches.

Is Snoop a big figure in your life? Is anybody, anybody looking to him for guidance in race relations? Only, I would wager, those who have all this ENERGY that needs to be expressed. Yes, I wish he wouldn't say those things about people... But I don't buy his products or concern myself with them.

Well, actually, I did always think that this was a nice moment for two crazy kids: http://tinyurl.com/37yz69

> do end up representing
> their groups, at least
> in part.

Energy.

> The unspoken truth about
> the Imus story is that
> there is no difference
> at all between what Imus
> does and what Snoop Dogg
> does.

Energy Energy.

> overly niggardly

Energy Energy Energy. You're in the South, right?

I fucked up the end of the last comment and may have been ambiguous in my team selection: It think it's totally OK that Imus lost his job.

First, because drivetime radio talkers are the sluttiest of rhetorical sluts. They lose their jobs for all kinds of reasons, including not cleaning their old cans of Chef Boy-ar-dee Ravioli-O's out of the station's refrigerator on Friday afternoons. I trust the marketplace to take care of them. And when it doesn't, they can do something else with their lives, just like anyone else. Speaking out loud for more than four minutes day puts you at risk if your heart isn't totally pure. Talking for a dozen or dozens of hours per week across a nation of transmitters is playing with fire.

Secondly, CBS (who fired Imus, right?) is a publicly-held enterprise. Maybe this comes from being a middle-aged man, but I imagined other middle-aged men, decent and gentle guys, going up to a CBS management and stockholders at the annual meeting and asking, "Pardon me, why did you allow my daughter --a private and unremarkable college athlete-- to be sexually and racially ridiculed in your nationally-distributed medium?"

How would you answer something like that? Would you tell the guy that Snoop said it was OK? Why would this guy be expected to care what Snoop thinks about anything?

"...when people who've moved beyond the problem --or merely want to-- tell them to just shut...up."

What does "moving beyond" the problem mean? Maybe I have moved beyond the problem of global warming, so can I tell Al Gore to shut up?

Maybe the message here is that Snoop Dogg and O.J. are beyond redemption, so don't bother giving them any consequences for bad behavior. There is still hope for Imus and his cohort.

Radwaste, you’re mistaken, there are very much white racists with followings still around; the largest branch of the American Nazi Party, whatever it’s called, probably the Legion of Snow Captains, just had a rally in Columbia, SC. Georgia just had its first integrated high school prom. In Georgia and Mississippi, there are billboards on the side of the road for the KKK. Unfortunate but true.

Ah, Crid, you’ve done your standard devolution into incoherence early, you usually hit the mark a little later. You’re declaring this whole discussion over, and anyone who dares to keep talking has ‘ENERGY,’ whatever that means.
Repeating ‘energy’ must have seemed a terrific rhetorical idea at the time, what did Hitchens do that sometime last week, you thought it sounded cool? Pssst, he was drunk, and it wasn’t.

Do you even know the definition of ‘niggardly,’ by the way? Dictionary.com is your friend.

“Is Snoop a big figure in your life? Is anybody, anybody looking to him for guidance in race relations? Only, I would wager, those who have all this ENERGY that needs to be expressed. Yes, I wish he wouldn't say those things about people... But I don't buy his products or concern myself with them.”
OK, try to keep up – we’re not talking about you, we’re talking about those he does influence, in dress and comportment, to their detriment. You’re not influenced by him personally? Congrats, nobody was talking about you. You’re probably fine with talking to the police, too, but Amy’s original point wasn’t about you either. Feel free to sit on the floor and squall ‘ENERGY!’ at her. Why, oh, why, does she talk about this stuff?

“It think it's totally OK that Imus lost his job.”
Me too.

“First, because drivetime radio talkers are the sluttiest of rhetorical sluts. They lose their jobs for all kinds of reasons, including not cleaning their old cans of Chef Boy-ar-dee Ravioli-O's out of the station's refrigerator on Friday afternoons.”

Nope. They get fired for not making money for the sponsors, or threatening to cost them more than they bring in. The market did indeed deal with Imus, and I’m fine with that.

“Secondly, CBS (who fired Imus, right?) is a publicly-held enterprise. Maybe this comes from being a middle-aged man, but I imagined other middle-aged men, decent and gentle guys, going up to a CBS management and stockholders at the annual meeting and asking, "Pardon me, why did you allow my daughter --a private and unremarkable college athlete-- to be sexually and racially ridiculed in your nationally-distributed medium?"
How would you answer something like that? “

As a CBS exec, I’d tell you to not buy the music, or to not listen to Imus. Vote with your wallet. If you felt your daughter had been individually singled out, hire a lawyer.

“Would you tell the guy that Snoop said it was OK?”
You either need to stop trying to understand what I write, or try a lot harder. I said, or rather, quoted Taibbi saying, Snoop and Imus are the same. Snoop is part of the problem regarding how many blacks are perceived by non-blacks.
If you’ve moved beyond all race problems, and you want everyone to just shut the fuck up about them, what are you doing on this thread? Back to your basement, the rest of us are talking.

"Back to your basement, the rest of us are talking."

And that's great, Cat brother.

But isn't that part of the reason why France's Le Pen, say, scoops up votes which never quite translate into power?

Because he airs the apparently unsayable - which gets a great deal of urgent and - yes - to nick Crid's word unpleasant "energy" from certain polite quarters (I'm thinking of my France-based parents, sadly). Then nothing productive happens?

The worst see these discussions as providing justification for whatever shit they fancy? And more thoughtful folk don't want to give real power to the "honest" politicians - when push comes to shove. They don't like where it might go?

(And I'm sure Crid knows the recent history of "niggardly". That's probably why he used it!)

White people have unmerited, unearned power and prestige in this society still. It is much easier in society to be white....and don't act like affirmative action has made any more than a dent in social/political/economical/professional equality. Whiteness protects people from certain hardships every day of their lives. That includes all arenas: education, work force, justice system, etc. Non-white people know this. Most white people don't or invalidate the effects/results of it.....which is a very powerful position to take.

Crid...I never thought I would ever say this....but....will you marry me? You can stay in your house and I will stay in mine. I'll give you what you want baby...just take me!

"White people have unmerited, unearned power and prestige in this society still. It is much easier in society to be white....and don't act like affirmative action has made any more than a dent in social/political/economical/professional equality. Whiteness protects people from certain hardships every day of their lives. That includes all arenas: education, work force, justice system, etc. Non-white people know this. Most white people don't or invalidate the effects/results of it.....which is a very powerful position to take."

Really? I know white people on welfare. I know people that have NOT been protected from certain hardships just because they were white. There might be more black than white people that are poverty-stricken but that doesn't mean there aren't any. What fantasy world do you live in?

The Founding Fathers of this country were white. Black tribal chieftains sold their own people into slavery. Most white people of that time were poor themselves, and did NOT own slaves, they WERE slaves, or indentured servants. You really didn't know this? Or did you not take any history courses during your academic career?
There are people of EVERY race that have unjustified senses of entitlement.

**Non-white people know this.**

Oh, kg, this makes me cringe. By implication, white people as a group are unable to know some social facts. Can I imply that non-white people are unable to learn certain social facts? Or is it a conspiracy that can't be exposed, despite the efforts of Link TV?

**White people have unmerited, unearned power...**

Well, I guess there is still hope, if power is still able to be earned and merited. Who knows, maybe someday a black lady will become the most powerful media figure, able to make books best sellers just on her say so.

**Whiteness protects people from certain hardships ...**

Is "whiteness" just skin color here, or a package deal of: a certain income level; property ownership; cooperating with police. I don't hear most immigrants complaining about a lack of white skin.

> What does "moving beyond"
> the problem mean?

It's worrisome that you can't imagine. "Moving beyond" means that you recognize an individual human identity for what it's worth; that you have some educated, sensible ideas about how culture and history conspire to nurture stereotypes, and have the candlepower --both in warmth and brightness-- to resist them.

Racial skittishness isn't like global warming. There's no consensus on a Big Central Truth to be established before we each take steps to alleviate the problem, and we pay no individual penalty for working to stop it... In fact, we harvest great value.

Snoop's said to have written noxious music; OJ's thought to have killed people. That's quite a range of "bad behavior." Aside from color, how much do these guys have in common?

> must have seemed a terrific
> rhetorical idea at the time

I can do better.

> we’re talking about
> those he does influence

Right, sure, you're worried about the little people. But it's important to take care of your own business. Before you go worrying on behalf of America's Impressionable Youth, we'd like more evidence that your own shop is in order.

As Seipp died, I visited Luke Ford's blog for the first time in awhile. New software's done a lot to clarify his postings. (Not enough, but still.) After reading his Seipp pieces I found a neat entry about a guest on Prager, a UCLA psychiatrist named Marmer, who said that maturity has three components: "How much anxiety can you tolerate without having to do something destructive to yourself or others; how much are you able to live in the present; and do you like undertaking obligations."

That's not a bad list! It's #1, "anxiety", that's under discussion today. I don't really worry that Imus is doing things that are grandly "destructive", but he's being childish about his need to share his discomfort through "nappy-headed-ho" jokes. Or by punning with "niggardly." A grown man ought to be able to live with that discomfort... Squatting silently over it for a lifetime if necessary. Little fella, we're embarrassed for you.

> Do you even know
> the definition

Yes. Everyone does, so it's not possible to be cute with it any more. It's an unremarkable word except for its rhyme, which is powerful enough that every few years it's propelled into the headlines from a college campus, or to the scripts of mundane TV sitcoms with a witless smirk like the one you wore as you used it yesterday. It was kicking around throughout my childhood decades ago; I looked it up, figured it out and set it aside.

Since then I've seen it used without loaded intent precisely one time. In "Shout: The Beatles in Their Generation" (1980), Phillip Norman described the penurious contract that EMI offered to the Boomer generation's sparkiest musical act. (They signed that contract, and it many ways, it's the crux of their narrative: Commerce and history make no allowances for once-in-a-century brilliance. See also Orwell, others.)

> You’re declaring this
> whole discussion over

What "discussion," Buttercup? If this isn't about your own personal energies and enthusiams, what is the precious thing you need to say?

> the rest of us are
> talking.

A toddler at the dinner table, uncomfortable with transitory human functions, will continually say "Poopies!" as Grandma --or worst case, a respected guest from outside the family-- ladles gravy over the potatoes. The kid's trying to figure things out, but there's no more information about the mechanics to give to him. Meanwhile, his words provoke responsive talk (and a little emotional juice) from the others, which --so far as he can tell-- is the purpose of adult conversation. Everyone just has to sit there (first in mild shame, then in fatigued annoyance) as he repeats it again and again until he figures it out.

There you are, you and Imus.

> will you marry me?

Done and DONE!

Please:

1. Have money.

2. Be between 21 and 75 years of age.

3. Have up-to-date voter registration and library cards.

4. Be somewhat sexual.

Also, it would mean a lot to me if you were a woman.

Today is the happiest day of my life:

1. I guess that depends, but I have no problem paying bills. I own a house. I shop regularly. I vacation.

2. I am in my sexual prime.

3. Yes. YES.

4. Refer to number 2.

5. I am woman. I've been told I am hot more than once by sober people.

Jody, Le Pen indeed taps a deep vein of usually-hidden prejudice, and thus gets votes. Our Criddy, however, simply declares the discussion over, wants everyone, in his words, to 'shut the fuck up,' which you'll notice is his attitude whenever the subject of Teh Ghays comes up on this blog. Whew, now that there's some ENERGY...
Anyway, his point of view doesn't advance the discussion, it seeks to stifle it. After letting us all know, by the way, how little Snoop Dog influences him. Which we were all on tenterhooks about, as Amy titled this blog, "I Thug Therefore I Am, or Crid on Modern Rap Music."

"A toddler at the dinner table, uncomfortable with transitory human functions, will continually...blah blah blah..." You'll have to do better than that. It seemed oddly self-decriptive, anyway; a pampered, insular individual, throwing around words whose meaning he doesn't know in an effort to seem smarter than he is, and acting insulted when he's banished from the table. That's Imus, and that's you.You don't think there's a problem, certainly nothing to talk about, and he doesn't think he did anything wrong.
You two should get on famously.

KG, I can only imagine you've lost a particularly heinous bet, the image of Crid being 'somewhat sexual' conjures up images from Heironimus Bosch.

"Hieronymus", babe.

"..to 'shut the fuck up,' which you'll notice is his attitude whenever the subject of Teh Ghays comes up on this blog. Whew, now that there's some ENERGY..."

Oh, totally Cat brother.

I still don't have a clue what was going on with teh gay there. But not the obvious, I think. It was all very rum - and depressing.

My problem with all this racial "elephant in the room" business is, as I mumbled earlier, so where do we go then? (A huge question, obviously.)

No one likes a diagnosis without a cure, I suppose.

One of the first things we have to do is abolish "political correctness". It's not political and it's NOT correct! Then we have to try to get the majority of people to understand what it means to take "personal responsibility". Good luck with that. It's not a race issue, it's a HUMAN issue.

"Really? I know white people on welfare. I know people that have NOT been protected from certain hardships just because they were white."

No shit, Flynne. But how many white people can you think of who worked hard to get where they were/are in life, but just couldn't make it because of their skin color? Just couldn't be accepted in any area of affluent life because they are so stark white. That type of failure is generally choice.

"The Founding Fathers of this country were white. Black tribal chieftains sold their own people into slavery. Most white people of that time were poor themselves, and did NOT own slaves, they WERE slaves, or indentured servants."

Oh, that's right! I keep forgetting that the fact black people sold black people into slavery makes slavery less heinous or evil. Thanks for the reminder...the history lesson...and, hey, looks like whitey did pretty well for themselves anyway...all that poverty and all. Poor fuckers couldn't even buy a slave or two...thank god we're past those days!

"Oh, kg, this makes me cringe. By implication, white people as a group are unable to know some social facts. Can I imply that non-white people are unable to learn certain social facts? Or is it a conspiracy that can't be exposed, despite the efforts of Link TV?"

Everyone is capable of knowing: however, white people aren't forced to know it everyday of their existence.

"I don't hear most immigrants complaining about a lack of white skin."

They don't want white skin; they want equality in all aspects of life...even in hearts and minds.

Cat brother,
Worry about your own dick; don't worry about the dick I want.

**...white people aren't forced to know it everyday of their existence.**

Let us not oversell our ability to teach the negative. People have a natural level of contentment that is hard to change, even with "the man" keeping people down.

It is not teaching the negative, fool. It's teaching the obvious.

Look at her! Look at her go.

One day she'll be my bride.

>>Also, it would mean a lot to me if you were a woman.

Crid, you slay me.

**It's teaching the obvious.**

Poopies! Poopies! Poopies!

Fatigue... Annoyance... Fati....

"Oh, that's right! I keep forgetting that the fact black people sold black people into slavery makes slavery less heinous or evil. Thanks for the reminder...the history lesson...and, hey, looks like whitey did pretty well for themselves anyway...all that poverty and all. Poor fuckers couldn't even buy a slave or two...thank god we're past those days!"

Touched a nerve, did I? I wasn't implying that selling people of your own race makes it less heinous, just stating a fact. How about the white slave trade, or are you ignorant of that as well? It is ongoing today, right now, young white girls getting kidnapped and sold into slavery, mostly to Mideast shieks that are above reproach and scrutiny because of their wealth. Your sarcasm just underlines your ignorance. "Whitey" has gotten "past those days" by sucking it up and dealing with what has to be dealt with, not wallowing in self-pity. And believe it or not, reverse racism is alive and well, because there ARE white people who get passed over for jobs and promotions because they are white - minority quotas need to filled, the hell with who's more qualified for the job.

"young white girls getting kidnapped and sold into slavery, mostly to Mideast shieks that are above reproach and scrutiny because of their wealth."

Are you talking about the recently exxed Beatle wife Heather Mills?

(I know from the Brit tabloids that she has a dubious past involving some sort of sheik, rattle and roll...?)

HEH!! Might be, Jody! :)

But there's evidence of other, not so famous (read "relatively unknown, runaway") white girls that have been drugged and sold into slavery, as well. I have a cousin who worked for a large city police department, and he's said that some of the runaways that go to the "big city" to "find fame and fortune" get picked up by pimps, for lack of a better word, and these pimps work out deals with "traders". He told my dad there are so many unaccounted-for runaways that it's scary, and he hates getting calls from parents and having to tell them yet again that there's "no news" about their child. He said there are on-going investigations but the traders seem to be damn good at covering their tracks.

"Touched a nerve, did I?"
Yes, you did. I call it the funny bone nerve.

"I wasn't implying that selling people of your own race makes it less heinous, just stating a fact."
Right, and stating the fact for what purpose? Please think through your comments.

"How about the white slave trade, or are you ignorant of that as well? It is ongoing today blah, blah, blah"
The point of the argument is about OPPRESSION. Please remember that. Oppression sucks anywhere and everywhere...and when it happens, it is a threat to everyone...as you so noted. Remember King's "I Have a Dream Speech"?

"for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny."

Your problem is that you can't quit talking about all the poor whites...oh how they have suffered...but persevered...like white suffering is more notable...and too bad blacks can't do so well. Maybe it's their fault? Why can't you validate the suffering of non-whites like you do whites? Why can't you see that in a white socially/politically/economically dominant society, non-whites have to work harder than whites. That is not fair. It is not surprising that most of the black population doesn't jump at the challenge to try twice as hard as the average white person. Most people of all cultures end up very similar to the status of their parents. Some move higher, some move lower, most stay right there with them. But, oh, I know....if they'd just act more white....hmmmmm....yeah, that's what I would do. Act like the folks that enslaved, tortured, killed my ancestors. If I were non-white, I would wonder about white people. What makes them think they are so trememndously more important than others who don't look like them that they could treat people so violently...unequally? I might even fear them a little. But whatever, right?

"Your sarcasm just underlines your ignorance." You are adorable.

"'Whitey' has gotten 'past those days' by sucking it up and dealing with what has to be dealt with, not wallowing in self-pity."
You really don't get it do you?

"reverse racism is alive and well"
Dr. Flynne, there is no reverse racism. It's just racism. The fact that you use that term is remarkably, profoundly racist. You really just don't get it.

Thanks for the moral support, baby! You know, I didn't want to move this quickly.....but, I love you.

"He said there are on-going investigations but the traders seem to be damn good at covering their tracks."

Flynne,
You KNOW what I'm gonna say, don't you?

Look, a decent sort of cop like your cousin can't nix the wretchedly speculative question "could my missing daughter have been taken by "a trader", do you suppose?".

And every society has its white slave trade villains - I think my grandmother was warned about the wicked "gypsy-os" via some popular racist doggerel...

I'll leave you to fill in the dots!

Of course I get it. You think you're so much more enlightened than I am.

"Your problem is that you can't quit talking about all the poor whites...oh how they have suffered...but persevered...like white suffering is more notable...and too bad blacks can't do so well. Maybe it's their fault?"

Well then who's fault is it? I only brought it up to make a point, that blacks weren't the only ones who suffered, even though they like to think so. I never said "white suffering" is more notable.

"Why can't you validate the suffering of non-whites like you do whites? Why can't you see that in a white socially/politically/economically dominant society, non-whites have to work harder than whites."

I never invalidated their suffering, I just said that MY ancestors, and MOST other whites', weren't the cause of it. Why should we have to pay for it?

"That is not fair. It is not surprising that most of the black population doesn't jump at the challenge to try twice as hard as the average white person."

Now you sound like my 6 year old nephew when I tell him it's too close to dinner to have ice cream.

"Most people of all cultures end up very similar to the status of their parents. Some move higher, some move lower, most stay right there with them. But, oh, I know....if they'd just act more white....hmmmmm....yeah, that's what I would do."

Yep, sarcasm really gets the point across. I never said that. All ANYONE, black, white, green, purple, all anyone really has to do to get where they want to be is act like a grownup and accept personal responsibility.

"Act like the folks that enslaved, tortured, killed my ancestors. If I were non-white, I would wonder about white people. What makes them think they are so trememndously more important than others who don't look like them that they could treat people so violently...unequally? I might even fear them a little. But whatever, right?"

What about the non-white people that enslave, torture and kill white people today? And that have done it in the past? I'm not saying ANYONE is better than anyone else, I'm just saying that those were/are the circumstances. Yes racism is racism. Stop showing yours.

Hi Jody.

"Look, a decent sort of cop like your cousin can't nix the wretchedly speculative question "could my missing daughter have been taken by "a trader", do you suppose?"."

Yeah I suppose he can, and probably does when he can, and with pleasure, unless he has to tell the parent they found their daughter or son in the river or strung out on the street somewhere. It's not pretty a lot of the time.

Yes, some people are more enlightened than others. Everyone is enlightened in some way. Some people are more enlightened in some areas than others...Can I sing you a lullaby? Shhhhh...Go to sleeeeep....shhhhhh.....Go to sleeeeeep....shhhhhh....got to sleeeep sweet Flyyynnnneyyyyy.....shhhhhhhhhh.

*yyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwnnnn*
anyone seen my blankey?

Damn I'm good.

I love you too Angel, but it's gonna break your heart when you find out how conservative I am....

My heart doesn't break easily. We should do fine since we have our own homes to go to. I don't generally talk politics or anything else for that matter (well???not true) during sex. We will be fine.

You two are slaves to your hormones...

I'll quote myself:

"There are those who yell about "profiling", and to some extent it is justified. But if you are looking for a predator, you look for obvious distinguishing features in given circumstances.

When you look at a person, what are they?"

People are always ready to yell about what cops should or shouldn't do. Gee, they'll even blame a cop for enforcing the law, if it's them breaking it (see above!).

So what do you want them to do?

We want justice applied broadly and transparently across the board, and not merely in those corners where people who are already safe and comfortable might imagine themselves to be somewhat threatened by easily-distinguished targets for enforcement.

(The prospect of more flirtation with kg is causing me to stretch liberal muscles that haven't been used in decades: I feel young again! Send a sports coupe and bottle of Grecian Formula.)

I've missed you, too!