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No Negotiating With Barbarians
Yoohoo, all you apologists for the Palestinians...I don't think this Hamas primitive is making any exceptions. From a Jerusalem Post story by Etgar Lefkovitz, a top Hamas official orders the kiling, not just of all Jews, but all Americans, based on his belief in a god he has no evidence exists and that murder-inciting book, the Koran.

He doesn't do that in so many words (that would bring trouble); he asks "Allah" to do it -- code for: "Hey, all you 16-year-olds with no good reason to live since Palestinian society is not about production, but about whining and death -- go blow your ass up in the presence of Israelis or Americans who are doing shit with their lives." Here's an excerpt from Lefkovitz' story:

Sheik Ahmad Bahr, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One." Following are excerpts from the sermon that took place last month, courtesy of MEMRI.

...The Hamas spokesperson concluded with a prayer, saying: "Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet, defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

He has most conveniently just declared war on us. The response is clear. Squash them like bugs before this gets out of hand.

via Drudge

Posted by aalkon at May 2, 2007 1:24 PM


This is off-topic, but I just wanted to post it somewhere. Vanity fair is excerpting some or Reagan's diaries from his days as president. It's a fascinating read. Oh, wait, this is kinda on topic:

Fri. May 15 • N.S.C. meeting with Lebanon on the table. Latest message from [special envoy Philip] Habib does not sound good although he said to make no decision for a few days. [Israeli prime minister Menachem] Begin was more flexible than [president] Assad of Syria (bolstered by Soviets). Habib going to Saudi Arabia to see if they'll lean on Assad. Sometimes I wonder if we are destined to witness Armageddon.

Posted by: justin case at May 2, 2007 11:15 AM

This is a PR stunt by Hamas. They are using the USA as a method to unite the various Palestinian factions and to avoid a sectarian fight between the fundamentalists and al-Fatah. There have been a series of grisly murders taken place in Gaza and linked to Fatah. The targets have been Hamas activists and the following revenge killings of Fatah members. Lets get ready for another bloodbath for the evening news.

Posted by: Joe at May 2, 2007 11:52 AM

The more I see statements like this -- and there are so many -- the more I understand exactly how backward a religion and culture Islam is or can be, and how impossible it is going to be to keep the world civilized in the face of the growing birthrate of the fundamentalists of all stripes vis a vis that of rational people.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 2, 2007 12:13 PM

I was reading Scott Adams blog and I pretty much agree with what he said. I know he aint no Middle East expert but I like the way he put things...

"My new prediction is that Hamas will realize it has no path other than to wink at its own citizens while publicly recognizing Israel and denouncing violence. There will be much secret plotting against Israel to keep people happy, but the time to act will always be “soon” and never “now.” Over time, Hamas will get used to being a legitimate government, visiting world leaders and whatnot, and they won’t want to screw it up just to blow up some hotels in Israel. A splinter group will think the mainstream Hamas rulers are too soft, and they will start doing their own terrorizing. By then it will make more sense for Hamas and Israel to collaborate against the terrorists, since the terror will be directed toward both governments"

---April 11, 2007

Posted by: PurplePen at May 2, 2007 12:18 PM

The Israelis took shitty, arid land and turned it into orange groves, and then built cities and schools and hospitals and started inventing things. How much of a genius do you have to be, as a Palestinian, to realize that primitivity isn't the road to anything but creating children who will blow themselves up as an act of jealous rage against people who work for a life for themselves? (I guess that's sort of a silly question - because I don't think there's much thinking at all that goes on...simply blind allegiance to the corrupt religious and political leaders in charge).

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 2, 2007 12:26 PM

I agree, Amy.

The main weakness among the Islamists is centered on their greatest asset. Their irrational religious zeal. You take 2 very orthodox Islamists and place them in a room. What would happen? Would they share common interests? Discuss family and personal matters? Perhaps, but most likely it will denigrate into an argument on who is more religious than the other and one will end up dead. This would happen between a Shia and a Sunni. Between 2 Shias and 2 Sunnis… you would get the same outcome. The power plays in the M.E. are quite simple, it is based on the old game of ‘king of the hill’ and which group is the toughest and strikes their opponent at the right time.

Posted by: Joe at May 2, 2007 1:32 PM

Amy - if you want to understand the Islamist mindset, look up the name 'Sayyid Qutb'.

It will explain in stark detail how the Palestinians and all the rest of the Islamists would look at modernity and say "feh - give me the 7th Century any day."

Posted by: brian at May 2, 2007 9:22 PM

Thanks, Brian. I know about Qutb, but for anyone who doesn't, I blogged about him recently:

And Joe, the King of The Hill game describes it pretty well. Sad. And scary, for those in their sights.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 2, 2007 10:21 PM

Well, I didn't leave the M.E. totally unscathed. From the inhabitants and the region itself.

Islamists fail miserably when it comes to governing nations. The so called good book isn't enough for proper governance of a nation. Also, Islam thrives in a less structured environment through advise and intimidation. Running a multi-layered bureaucracy is a nightmare for these guys. Hamas is learning this lesson the hard way. While Fatah is waiting in the wings with their bombs and militias.

Posted by: Joe at May 2, 2007 11:12 PM

how impossible it is going to be to keep the world civilized in the face of the growing birthrate of the fundamentalists of all stripes vis a vis that of rational people.

...except that I know a lot of children of fundamentalists who grew up to believe the exact opposite of what their parents believed. Especially if they grew up in a society with more choices.

I'd be amazed if the same didn't happen with children of Muslim immigrants. Without fail, the birthrate argument has been used as a means to generate fear about every single immigrant race in our nation's history; invariably, it turns out not so scary. Irish, Chinese, Italians...eventually, they do assimilate. Here in Santa Ana, it's 90% or so Mexican, and guess what? Everyone seems to speak good English. Because they've been here longer than in L.A.

Posted by: LYT at May 3, 2007 1:21 AM

Yeah, but people thought the (fill in ethnic group here) were "dirty," not that they want to kill us. And they do want to kill us. And the Israelis. And they succeed, by sending their children out to blow themselves up, because, to paraphrase Golda Meir, they don't love their children more than they hate the Israelis. This is a barbaric society and a society with nothing to lose.

Mexican immigrantss I know just want to join our economy and live the American dream. Islamists want to kill us all or at least convert us all and ruin the American dream. Big difference.

PS I don't agree with you but I still missed you at the Reason mag thing tonight!

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 3, 2007 2:22 AM

> Squash them like bugs....

Sad, sad, to read this hate. You make yourself little better than those you wish to exterminate.

Posted by: Stu "El Inglés" Harris at May 3, 2007 7:04 AM

It's hateful to say people who openly call for our death should be dealt with harshly?

I didn't give Muslims or Islam one thought until 9/11. As it's become clear to me that unlike the annoying and moderately dangerous Christian fundamentalists who want to take away our freedoms, these people, in large part, want to take away our lives. Has that escaped you? Now that I point that out, what would be your way of dealing with it? Ignore it and hope it goes away?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 3, 2007 7:12 AM

> what would be your way of dealing with it?

Arrest people who break laws. Definitely NOT plan to exterminate an entire ethnic/religious group. That's what Hitler did, and look where it got him.

Posted by: Stu "El Inglés" Harris at May 3, 2007 8:22 AM

Amy - I had forgotten that you talked about Qutb.

Stu - Under what pretenses do you suggest we "arrest" Bahr? Remember, Sudan offered up Bin Laden on a platter, and Clinton wouldn't take him because there was no legal method for dealing with him.

The religicide will happen. That much is guaranteed. I just don't know which side will end up dead.

Posted by: brian at May 3, 2007 8:53 AM

Once people understand that all religious (monotheistic) texts are instruction manuals for grand theft, murder, genocide, pillaging and warfare. Now, Judaism and Christianity are less tempered than Islam. They went through their own period of violence, revision and embraced modernity with the occasional orthodox hiccups.

Islam and the Qur'an in its literal translation is a threat to every living person who embraces modernity. Yes, there are religious moderates within Islam and I have mentioned the various movements. Guess what? They are a very small, quiet minority that gives an image of being nonexistent in the M.E. Where image is everything. The image of Islamists is strength and religious purity. If they are Ba’thists-secularists, it’s strength and political purity.

Did anyone notice the rallies in Turkey? Stadiums and soccer arenas filled with Turks rallying for secularism. One rally estimated a gathering of a million people. If there were similar rallies in Cairo, the West Bank, Riyadh, Baghdad and all the other major cities within the Middle East… I would have hope for a moderation of Islam. What are the current rallies and protests in the Arab Street?

My approach is way different than the zero sum game proposed (it should always be on the table) or the way of blissful ignorance of the multi-cultural crowd.

Posted by: Joe at May 3, 2007 10:22 AM

> Stu - Under what pretenses do you suggest we "arrest" Bahr?

None at all -- yet. As long as he's off in Palestine mumbling to a non-existant God he's on the right side of the law. It's only Amy's opinion that his message is really intended to recruit suicide bombers. If he came right out and said that, I really doubt that it would mean trouble. However, unless I'm mistaken, both his incitement to ethnic violence and Amy's would get them arrested under the current laws of both UK and the Netherlands, FWIW.

Posted by: Stu "El Inglés" Harris at May 3, 2007 1:37 PM

Stu - do you mean to tell me that the UK would expect to be able to arrest a man located in Gaza, for violating UK law?

Isn't that a trifle arrogant?

Or would you prefer to wait until he shows up at a mosque in London, and his charges go off and blow up three buses and a tube?

Posted by: brian at May 3, 2007 1:46 PM

Definitely NOT plan to exterminate an entire ethnic/religious group.

That isn't what I said. But, are you just going to sit placidly while not just this guy, but many Islamists, preach the murder of the rest of us? What would be your solution? Just wait until the suitcase nuke gets you?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 3, 2007 3:09 PM

Amy - our problem is we don't see the nuance of the whole thing. See, these guys don't actually mean that whole kill the infidels thing literally, they're just saying that as an analog to an internal struggle.

And I'm the Queen of England.

What passes for nuance on the left these days is really just repackaged delusion.

Posted by: brian at May 3, 2007 3:53 PM

Its the politics of posturing and pretension. No one should take it seriously. They are more concerned with the proper attitude than actual results. Thirty four years (since 1972) of mocking the values of middle America and they still act surprise when the GOP has won elections in the last 34 years.

History has to be seen as a tragedy, instead of a morality play. Islam is a tragedy, because the past version (1,400 years) is quite similar to its present incarnation. There was a short period of discovery in the region. From 800 to 1100 the intellectual center of the world was Baghdad. One Persian iman completely alters the 300 years of progress through the publications of various religious interpretations to Islam.

The iman was Abu Hamid al-Ghazali. His one book The Incoherence of Philosophers (Tahafut al-Falasifa) stopped the 300 years of progress in a matter of few years. The book attacks the works of the Falasifa (mainly Ibn Sina and Abu Nasr al-Farabi) and their writings. These were Arabs scholars who openly embraced Aristotle, Plato and the Greek philosophers. Ghazali denounced the Greek philosophical tradition as Satanic and any Muslim who embraces their teachings as corrupters of the one true faith. That ended the Enlightenment in the Middle East in a matter of years.

The Middle East hasn't recovered from the fatal embrace of Ghazali's writings.

Now the USA has to deal with this fatal embrace and it will use 'behavior modification' through the threat of force within the region. I disagree with the current White House policy of sending standing armies to deal with a virus of the mind. To combat Islamists, you will need law enforcement, intelligence gathering and special ops. Nations that are open to reform, need to be cultivated through aggressive diplomacy. Junk the Clausewitz and all his modern day technocratic heirs who are nothing but Cold War relics.

Posted by: Joe at May 3, 2007 5:34 PM

Simply tragic, Joe. Thanks - that's fascinating stuff.

And I'm with you on the White House hammer approach being exactly wrong.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at May 3, 2007 8:56 PM

If one text could derail a civilization, there is probably an underlying instability in the society.

Posted by: doombuggy at May 4, 2007 5:08 AM


All societies are in essence unstable, because they are in a state of conflict with the natural order. It's how the individual society interprets and embraces this instability through a sense of discovery and openness to new ideas.

In Islam the most important quality for a believer is to maintain their physical/spiritual purity. From keeping your body clean, plucking your armpit hairs, shaving your pubic hair to keeping impure ideas out of the mass consciousness of believers.

After Ghazali's book... there were a series of fellow Islamic scholars that wrote commentaries supporting the anti-Falasifa stance towards maintaining Islam's message of purity. Ghazali stands apart from the rest, because he was more effective in his use of language (Arabic/Farsi) to base his arguments against the infusion of the Greek tradition. To this day he still highly regarded by Muslim scholars and used by the more rigid clerics in maintaining Islam in its literal interpretation.

One religious scholar in the West did take The Incoherence of Philosophers seriously. Thomas Aquinas. Where Ghazali rejected non Islamic sources such as Socrates, Aristotle and Plato. Aquinas would embrace the pagan Greeks philosophers and structure their works to compliment Christian scholarship away from the outdated influence of Augustine of Hippo. Laying the foundations of the Renaissance, Reformation and Age of Enlightenment. Also, include the numerous religious wars, civil wars, the Inquisition, blasphemy laws, colonial expansion, the persecution of scientists and other natural philosophers. A lot of blood was shed to get this far in human progress. The downside of Aquinas was that his works were also used to validate a lot of the religious violence towards heretics.

The Middle East needs to go through the process that Europe went through 500 years ago. What were the weapons of choice 500 years ago? Now compare them to the weapons we have presently. This why every living person should be concern of what is going on in the Middle East.

Posted by: Joe at May 4, 2007 12:05 PM

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