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Oh, Hurl
I get a lot of press releases, and it would behoove those who send them to first take 20 seconds out to look at my blog, which is, I'd say, the antithesis of the girl-coddling, "feminization of the web" sob-sisterhood promoted in this e-release from Allyson Stinchfield, from

Hi Amy,

As social networks continue to proliferate, women have stepped to the forefront as dominant web users. What is being called "the feminisation of the web" (The Communications Market 2007,, women ages 18-34 now account for 55% of time spent online and moreover, are flocking to online communities to socialize and bond with others who share and care about what they find most interesting.

Yes, I call it a blog.

On online community sites such as Experience Project ( ), a network that encourages the sharing of genuine life experiences in safe and anonymous spaces, female members are encouraged to join groups focused on life experiences and openly share their personal stories, while meeting and making friends with other women who share the same story.

And women wonder why they can't make it in the big, mean, male work world?

Ultimately, by connecting people that have a common understanding on a set of meaningful, and often sensitive issues, women can support one another through truthful, communal storytelling and positive reinforcement. While men are present and also welcomed at Experience Project...

Leave your dicks at the door, boys!

...the emotionally supportive culture and emphasis on anonymity

Newsflash, dearie: You can post on my site under whatever fucking name you want, including IThinkAmyIsABIgOldTwat, although I prefer to be referred to as "Sugar Tits."

...prevents the site from breaking down into yet another venue for online dating -- providing a safe harbor raved about by female members.

If your "safety" is dependent on not having anyone -- horrors! -- ask you for a date, you need to spend more, not less, time in the company of men. They really aren't bad people, even if, from time to time, they give a glance or two at your titties, and flash on what it would be like to bend you over the cash register. Frankly, without this sort of thing, none of these ladies would be here to participate in all this i-coddling, as their ancestors would never have passed on their genes.

Here are a few women-focused Experience Project user groups with particularly inspiring stories:

Women and Pregnancy: I Had Pregnancy Complications // I am a Teenage Mother –Though having a baby is most often pronounced as a joyous occasion, mothers and mothers-to-be, who have experienced complications during pregnancy or feel that they are maybe having a baby too young, are encouraged to join these unique user groups, share their stories and/or listen to those of others. What results is a powerful connection of women struck with similar life experiences and the healing process of sharing with others who truly understand. Links to such groups include:

Women and Relationships: I Have Been In Abusive Relationships // I Have Relationships with Married Men // I am in a Long Distance Relationship – "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is one of the most tested piths when discussing relationships in women circles.

Oh, I'm soooo sure it is. But, as Stephen Pinker wrote in The Blank Slate, "Men are not from Mars, nor are women from Venus. Men and women are from Africa, the cradle of our civilization, where they evolved together as a single species." I find a science-focused, rather than a whining-focused, approach is much more helpful in making one's way in the world.

Experience Project users who have been involved in relationships that are not so cut and dry (spousal/partner abuse, extramarital affairs and long distance relationships) are given the space to provide first hand accounts of their experiences and subsequent consequences. This sharing process provides others, who may also feel alone and trapped in a similar situation, a mirror that can both reflect their own circumstances and offer support. Links to such groups include:

Or just write to me, and I'll write you back for free, and slap you upside the head until you start behaving less like a self-defeating, self-pitying asshat, and start taking a little responsibility for what you allow into your life.

(On the bright side, they aren't suggesting you hold a mirror up to your vagina.)

I'd like to offer Armen Berjikly, founder and CEO of Experience Project and by request, Experience Project women members, as resources for any stories you're working on around women and the benefits of the online community and social networking phenomenon.

And I'm ever-so-glad you did, as I needed a time-unsensitive blog item for our trip to Italy.

Have fun holding hands and collectively sobbing, ladies. I'll be over here where the boys are.

Posted by aalkon at September 5, 2007 12:56 PM


Wow. That sounds like a pretty horrible site.

As a guy with mostly female friends, I can attest that all of them would avoid such a site as though it would give them an STD (they're far too busy living life to waste time sobbing about it).

What does the 'experience' in 'Experience Project' mean? Visit our site and experience intestinal discomfort?

Posted by: Rod at September 4, 2007 9:39 PM

As a card-carrying member of Heartless Bitches International, might I suggest your perusal of Seems to me it would be the absolute Anti-Experinence Project site! o_O

Posted by: Flynne at September 5, 2007 6:10 AM

Sorry, that should be:

Posted by: Flynne at September 5, 2007 6:12 AM

I find a science-focused, rather than a whining-focused, approach is much more helpful in making one's way in the world.

That's a great line, Sugar Tits.

Posted by: iGuy at September 5, 2007 6:17 AM

Sounds like emotional-bullshit-overload. I do, however, feel there is some utility to sharing how you feel about something. Sorry Amy, but if I got raped, I'd be pretty fucking traumatized and I could foresee getting a few utils out of discussing it w/ someone else who has managed to recover mentally/emotionally from the experience. Sucking it up just doesn't apply to all situations.

...that said I don't think there's much merit to being an emotional wreck 24/7 and I think it's a shame that so many women would rather talk about diaper changes and relationship troubles than other things.

I don't think people need to have deep, heated debates everyday on foreign policy (for example)...but most people should give it a try! Just about something important and give just a little shit about our country and world! Who cares if you get rid of your baby's diaper rash if you don't know anything else! (The kid will grow up to be just as oblivious and vacuous as the parent.) The website and "experiment" seem overdone.

The average person should realize "I'm unique. Just like everybody else," then move on.

Posted by: Gretchen at September 5, 2007 6:30 AM

As a very male-oriented woman I was once AMAZED at the amount of sissy fairy women out there. Having been one of 10 grandchildren, I was the only girl in my family. I grew up around males and of those cousins that have had children they have had boys and I also had 3 sons. I spent 5 years in the wedding industry, Tuxedos and Formalwear for men. I had contact with and measured over 3,500 men/boys per year. I am clearly more comfortable around men than women.

I also worked for 5 years in the retail Adult industry. Porn, toys, magazines, etc. It is in this environment that I came to realize how many women are truly clueless about their own bodies and how to interact with the male of the species. I can't tell you how many women had never seen their 'dirty parts' in a mirror and how often I gave that advice. In several instances I became a pseudo sex therapist with customers coming by to talk, explain problems, bring spouses to talk to me and get advice.

It is true that there is a signifigant number of women that are more like those on that UK site than, let's say...the women that come to this site. That is why I guess I felt very comfortable here.... enough to post. When I was a young mother first learning the computer I did a lot of chatting online and blogging and posting with other young mothers. Frequently I found most of them to be lame chicks with nothing else to talk about except diapers and toddlers. Especially in the AOL chat rooms. Over time they all just seemed to be catty 'Room Queens' that acted ridiculously territorial over who created a chat room and who was allowed in it. For the most part, if I had met any of them in person I probably wouldn't relate to them or want to know them. I was going nuts with nothing but babies at home and I yearned for intelligent adult conversation and most women I came across were so much like those on the Experience Project that I couldn't take it anymore and dropped online chatting and posting.

I work now with a Department of Defense millitary contract on submarines. 90% of my company is men and retired Navy. So as far as I can tell, I'm glad the sappier chicks have a place to go. Frees up some of the net for chicks like me. I'll just keep on plugging along with the guys here at work.

Posted by: Cathleen at September 5, 2007 7:03 AM

I'm in favor of getting support from people who've been there and thus are more likely to understand where I'm at. It really helps.

That said I think that site sounds like it could just encourage emotional wallowing. The whole 'caring' tone is so overblown it makes me want to back away from my computer so I don't get any saccharine on me. Bleh.

My money is on the site simply being another mommy/baby/toddler/PTA/bitch about boyfriend or husband site. I generally avoid the sites aimed at women, because I'm just not a good fit. I don't seem to respond to the same emotional triggers that women my age are supposed to (see above about babies/toddlers/PTA...). I respond to other things...I guess I am just wired differently.

Posted by: Karen at September 5, 2007 7:39 AM

For a while I was posting in a forum designed for female gamers. The whole idea is that we could talk about games that were female friendly and what kind of games we'd like to see and generally advocate for change. (Games are almost entirely focused on guys, either the main characters are men, or half naked women (lara Croft). Often what female characters their are are painfully vapid. I thought this would be an interesting community to join, maybe we'd be able to get involved with the industry and advocate for better games for women and young girls. (Like, games that aren't cooking or barbie focused, but have female characters that aren't half naked and helpless.)

It ended up being a lot like what the experience project sounds like. I got in trouble twice for using the word retarded in a negative way. And once for using "crazy" in a deragatory manner. I was thinking about leaving but I really cared about the group and stuff, and I agreed with the stated mission.

This all culminated in a post about world of warcraft widows. These are women whose husbands play video games to the extent that they no longer do housework, have sex, watch the kids, etc and so forth. I said that I'd lost two boyfriends to world of warcraft and that frankly though it sucks these women need to lay down the law with their husbands. I said that in life, you get what you tolerate. If your husband wont stop playing WoW, then take the computer away, or leave him. It turns out this was the worst offense of all "Blaming the victim." Implying that someone who puts up with her husband's bad behavior is going to be stuck with that behavior is apparently the same as saying a woman wearing a short skirt was "asking for it." I think not. So I left.

I don't understand why anyone would want to participate in a cushy echo chamber where everyone blames the big bad world and no one is allowed to take responsibility for their own life and move on. While it is good for rape victims and abuse victims to share their stories and deal with their issues, it isn't healthy for them to do so in an environment that enables them to be miserable, without empowering them.

Posted by: Shinobi at September 5, 2007 7:45 AM

Cathleen -- I'm sure the job in retail porn prepared you very well for that DOD contract on... submarines. Leena the Weena

Posted by: Lena Cuisina, Deep Pee Diver at September 5, 2007 7:51 AM

What is the appeal of the echo-chamber, especially if you aren’t the one being echoed? Is it a gender thing? Why does someone invest their time commenting someplace where it is against the rules to disagree with others? It seems like it would be a better use of time to sit down with your cats and eat a tube of raw cookie dough.

Being disagreed with allows you to sharpen your own thoughts and improve your mind. Wallowing in twaddle with a bunch of anonymous screen names sounds like a lead up to a gory suicide scene.

And Gretchen raises the issue of someone recovering from a traumatic life experience. Would it really aid the healing process to read some tepid observational maunderings followed by two hundred “you go girl!” comments? The harshest people I have ever encountered online would break character long enough to refer a person in emotional distress to a legitimate source of assistance in the unlikely event someone showed up at “” looking for help after a personal tragedy.

I steal my “surf” time
That makes it more precious
Please, say you are right

Posted by: martin at September 5, 2007 9:42 AM

Why is it so surprising that some people are attracted to other people who wholeheartedly, uncritically agree with them? Not to defend these bitches, but their insularity is hardly unique.

Posted by: Lena at September 5, 2007 10:56 AM

Well it does make for some pretty boring threads. They are genrally some off the less engaging groups and forums. I find it interesting that communities are developed specifically to be echo chambers. Also, just because and idea isn't unique, or everyone does it, doesn't mean it is a good thing.

Posted by: Shinobi at September 5, 2007 11:34 AM

True, Lena, but you've got to admit that a never-ending pity party is a not only waste of time, after a while it becomes a big ol' pain in the ass and does nothing to encourage someone to get the help they may need from a professional. It is totally counter-productive when people feed off of each other's misery, and do nothing to alleviate it.

Posted by: Flynne at September 5, 2007 11:34 AM

It’s not surprising that people prefer the company of the like-minded in everyday real life but the value of the interwebs is in finding people to argue with.

Why go to the trouble of developing and promoting an elaborate site for people to not argue in? It’s like the people who take expensive vacations to exotic locations and then hide in the posh hotel, never hearing a syllable of the local language or diving out of the path of a careening taxi. Relaxing yes but you could have stayed in Poughkeepsie and done that.

I don't begrudge anyone their quiet little corner of the big, fat net but I do get tired of hearing how mean everyone is and about proposed laws to protect some goober's widdle feewings.

Posted by: martin at September 5, 2007 11:36 AM

Shinobi I'm not a gamer but have you ever played Onimusha? It's the only game I became addicted to because it stared my future husband, and fav. actor Takeshi Kaneshiro. The other two games I became addicted to Prince of Persia and bizarrely Sly Cooper were because I was attracted to the main characters. I also used Grand Turismo to decide what car I would purchase without having to go to the dealer.

The only all female site I visit frequently is MakeupAlley. I can read it for hours at a time.

Posted by: PurplePen at September 5, 2007 11:37 AM

:::earworm alert!:::

"...kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down..."

Posted by: Flynne at September 5, 2007 11:37 AM

Uh oh, Flynne, Shinobi, we have accidentally ganged up on poor Lena. We had better do something to soothe her delicate sensibilities.

Lena, I promise to agree with the next thing you post no matter how wildly sensual and erotic it might be.

Posted by: martin at September 5, 2007 11:41 AM

way easy money
that's ex-eagle don henley
uhm, dirty laundry

Posted by: martin at September 5, 2007 11:43 AM

Lena, I promise to agree with the next thing you post no matter how wildly sensual and erotic it might be.

And I promise to play it out with my BF! o_O

(film at 11, maybe!)

Posted by: Flynne at September 5, 2007 11:48 AM

My old adult job sure did prepare me for working with jumbo phallic objects that go down...way down.....heheh

As I mentioned in the old Chasing Jamey post, my ex-husband was addicted to the computer. Porn in the evenings and WoW, etc. every other minute of the day. He still keeps the same gaming/work schedule. He averages 18-20 hours a day on the computer. He would even wake up to pee at night, stop by the computer on the way back from the bathroom!!

That was one reason I tried to turn to the computer/women's sites for support and companionship. It worked while I was tied down but as it turns out, I still prefer the real world to the virtual one.

Posted by: Cathleen at September 5, 2007 11:51 AM

I thought you guys were being too harsh. I thought, what's the harm in talking to others about your problems for a while? But before I commented I decided to browse the site for a few minutes to get an idea of what it's about. That is the lamest website I've ever been on, with the possible exception, it's the worst. About ten years ago I spent a little time in chat rooms, long enough to realize that I was talking to vacuous idiots. is worse.

Posted by: Laurie at September 5, 2007 12:39 PM

"Games are almost entirely focused on guys, either the main characters are men, or half naked women (lara Croft)."

I don't understand this. If the characters are men the game is focused on guys and if the characters are women the game is focused on guys. This seems like the usual feminist propaganda (from shinobis post I'm not saying she is, just it's what I'm used to hearing). And, it isn't fair to say the women are half naked and unrealistic because so are the men.

I guess my question is what would the character have to look like or what would the game style be in order to cater to women? Ugly female characters?

Posted by: Scott at September 5, 2007 12:46 PM

I don't get involved in crappy relationships, and I don't need to visit a website full of people who do in order for me to feel glad about that. In fact, I am way too busy enjoying life to have any interest in listening to pity parties on the subject. Most of 'em are barely literate anyway.

Flynne makes a good point - if you are in the habit of making bad decisions in your life, what good is it going to do you to hang out online with a bunch of other people who also make bad decisions? What can you possibly learn from them that you can use to improve your situation? It does smack of a never-ending pity party, where the real goal is simply to wallow in misery along with others in the same boat.

Posted by: Pirate Jo at September 5, 2007 12:54 PM

"long enough to realize that I was talking to vacuous idiots" - Laurie

Yeah that's a problem. Sometimes I go on Yahoo!Answers (to answer questions. It's b/c it's fun. Amy, you have a neat job.)and I always get frustrated with the large number of idiots - I can hardly read most of the questions b/c they're incoherent.

Martin - If I had a traumatic experience I probably wouldn't want to seek out solace on a site where people were going to rip me apart. Or drop a few lines like "You go, girl!" I agree that that wouldn't help. Duh. But I think that some traumatic experiences affect people deeply and someone who has healed can help...And anonymity may also help b/c some people are too upset to discuss the issue at all. Some experiences ARE worth discussing w/ others who have had the same ones.

I think and underlying issue is people who need an emotional crutch just to get through everyday life. And those are the type of people who will be drawn to the website. The idea in and of itself isn't putrid to me - it might be helpful to many people. But then it gets cheese-ified and the topics are completely pointless and it loses its legitimacy. More people need to function and get through life w/o relying on others for support all the time and the lameass site promotes the opposite.

Posted by: Gretchen at September 5, 2007 1:04 PM

I just browsed the site and I'm sorry I did b/c it was, indeed, a complete and utter waste of time.

Posted by: Gretchen at September 5, 2007 1:07 PM

Just got to Paris a couple of hours ago -- actually on the outskirts in a hotel because we have an early flight to Bologna, and then a car trip to Mantua tomorrow for a lit conference Gregg has to go via Paolo Zacchagnini, this crazy bearded writer we met last year at the Noir In festival:

And I love Heartless Bitches. Yeah, they are a little one-note, per Lena, but if you read some of my mail from women, you'd see how many more women should be singing their tune. (Beats "He Stepped On Me...Again."

Posted by: Amy Alkon at September 5, 2007 1:11 PM

"If I had a traumatic experience...etc."
I hope it goes without saying that someone who needs a helping hand deserves our best effort. My point was that an overbearing blowhard who's always right might do a better job of getting someone on the road to healing than some granola smoking ninny.
(I think we are singing off the same sheet music only you are actually on key.)

Posted by: martin at September 5, 2007 1:29 PM

The gaming industry is largely focused towards marketing to men. Most of the people who build the games are men, a lot of the people who play and buy them are men. It isn't surprising that the games mostly cater to (often stereotypical ideas) of what men and teenage boys want to see. You may disagree with this and that's okay, I don't want to hijack this whole thread with my alleged feminist propaganda. I don't think this is some vast patriarchal conspiracy, I think it is just how things have unfolded within the industry.

A lot of what the site was SUPPOSED to be discussing was what kind of game designs would appeal to women, and what kind of characters. It was supposed to be a place to answer the exact question that you posed. It mostly ended up being whining.

Personally I would just like to see a situation for RPGs where I could choose the gender of my character without being put into a certain class or losing stats. Some games have this (WoW is one, Unreal Tournament too) other games like oblivion change your stats, and still others don't offer the option at all. That probably wouldn't work as well for games like Metal gear solid that are heavily based around one character. I would like to see more games like those that have a female main character whose main appeal was not based on how hot she was. (A la old school Samus.)


Posted by: Shinobi at September 5, 2007 1:50 PM

Woohoo! More girl gamers! Hello Shinobi!

Actually Scott there are all sorts of issues in gaming, from marketing to storyline to character design, that at best do not attract female gamers and at worst drive them away from a game. Women prefer to play characters that are complex, prefer engaging storylines (as opposed to frag-fests) and often like to play in shorter sessions (as opposed to marathon LAN parties). WoW is actually a pretty good 'girl game' in that your character can be as psychologically complex as you want, there's a lot of customizing for the toons, there's a social network, you can play for short stints or long sessions, lots of cooperative play (as opposed to all pvp), is a PC game, and the only difference between males and females in game is the shape of the pixels. WoW actually has a much higher percentage of female gamers than say, Halo.

It's something that I've tried to get involved in, only to find that 'girl-gamers' usually fall into two groups:
1) Whiners (why does my boyfriend play so much WoW - I got thrown out of a chat room for suggesting she play with her boyfriend - nothing like a little ERP*. And this was a room for *girl gamers*)
2) and "I will frag you" porn stars (or wannabe porn stars)

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but a subject finally came up where I know a little something.

*ERP - Erotic Role Playing. Essentially in game phone-sex.

Posted by: Elle at September 5, 2007 1:52 PM

Thanks, Nice to have a real comment besides "Uhhh, the patriarchal society doesn't let you understand"

Shinobi, It seems I misunderstood your original point because of the example. I also didn't mean to allege it was your propaganda but it did sound similar without the follow up explanation. The response cleared it up.

Posted by: Scott at September 5, 2007 2:16 PM

Scott, probably my fault for trying to sum up a complex problem in one sentance.

Hi Ellie!! Yay for more girl gamers!

Posted by: Shinobi at September 5, 2007 2:45 PM

Er.. Elle... read much? Doh.

Posted by: Shinobi at September 5, 2007 2:46 PM


Yeah. This is actually one of my 'issues' I was actually a video game design major for a year before I wised up (I wanted to write/ design games and revolutionize the wild frontier. They were teaching me to draw pretty pictures.) I've done a lot of reading on game design, game psychology, gender issues in gaming, and a lot more (I'm even writing a few articles). (If you haven't read it already I highly recommend Got Game: How the Gaming Generation is Changing the Face of Business Forever)
And to avoid cluttering up (oh so patient) Amy's blog with dork talk, feel free to email me at It would be nice to talk about this with someone who doesn't think I'm stark raving nuts.
/geekout over

Posted by: Elle at September 5, 2007 6:49 PM


"If the characters are men the game is focused on guys and if the characters are women the game is focused on guys."

Lara Croft is a character created for male players. One of the designers once said in an interview that they chose a female character because,

  1. Women move more elegantly,
  2. A player would be more likely to emphatize with a female character, and
  3. They wanted to give the (mostly male) players something nice to look at.

Point two may sound a bit weird, I am quoting, or rather, paraphrasing this from memory, but the idea was that they wanted the player to play the game with and for, not against, the character, and they thought this would be more likely with a female character.

Besides, in the second half of the 90s the whole gaming industry was very male oriented, and a lot of gamers felt a bit uneasy about female gamers too, just take this comic as an example.

"I guess my question is what would the character have to look like or what would the game style be in order to cater to women? Ugly female characters?"

No, definitely not. I have no surveys to back it up, but I'd say men are more likely to like an ugly woman than most women are. But they probably should have small breasts. Just look at your average magazine ad. If the ad targets men, the models have big breasts, if it targets women, the models have small breasts.

A good example for games that go well with a female demographic is the Final Fantasy series; most Japanese games in fact. This may have something to do with the fact that cinema audiences in Japan tend to be 80% female.

Posted by: Theodor at September 5, 2007 9:01 PM

Oops, sorry for double post.

Posted by: Theodor at September 5, 2007 9:02 PM

Sorry-ass bitches
I think I know what they need:
More cunninglingus

Posted by: Lena at September 5, 2007 10:55 PM

Leave your dicks at the door, boys!

They're collecting tips in advance.

Posted by: Doobie at September 6, 2007 4:10 AM

You know, it's the language of the promo that turned me off. I like web communities, and I even like some of the ones designed for chicks. But the way the lady makes this sound is so much the "pity party". It's not a celebration of women, or even a discussion of female "issues", it seems to be dedicated towards "what makes you a victim?".

It's THAT attitude that repulses many of us. Have you been abused? Are you in a loveless marriage? Hard pregnancy? How have you been victimized today?

It's true, many people do go to the Internet to discuss the things that have traumatized them. It's the anonymous-ness that appeals to us, often (who wants to confess that they've let themselves be taken advantage of), as well as sometimes it doesn't hurt to have someone go "You go, girl" or "You were right to do what you did". But its one thing to be working through a problem (sometimes simply by writing about it) or seeking advice, it's another to be wallowing in this victim mindset where you all feel persecuted and demeaned.

Btw, Theodor, I was just going to mention the Final Fantasy & Kingdom Hearts games! These appeal hugely to women; I think it's because the characters aren't overdrawn (for one) and because the storylines are not "frag fests". I didn't know the factoid about Japanese audiences though. Interesting!

Posted by: CornerDemon at September 6, 2007 7:10 AM

Lena speaks the truth
the cunning linguist heals all
my promise is kept

Posted by: martin at September 6, 2007 11:49 AM

Martin on a leash
How skillfully he serves me!
Victory is mine

Posted by: The Story of 'Oh, Lena' at September 6, 2007 1:26 PM

A game has been won.
Who is really the master?
A leash bonds both ends.

Posted by: 'Ode to martin' at September 6, 2007 2:06 PM

Leashes don't matter
My labia are open
Dive right in, Martin

Posted by: The Devil in Miss Lena at September 6, 2007 4:19 PM

leashless gyration
climaxic stimulation

Posted by: martin the exorcist at September 6, 2007 7:35 PM

I don't know, Martin
Should I get out my strap-on?
Vanilla or kink?

Posted by: Lena "Pushing the Envelope" Cuisina at September 6, 2007 8:20 PM

Getting out of hand
Seriously, Labia?
Get a room you guys

Posted by: Shinobi at September 7, 2007 7:22 AM

Come on now, Lena
You won't be needing your toys
martin's got your kink

Posted by: magic suitcase martin at September 7, 2007 7:24 AM

Curiouser and
Curiouser, what do you
Think will happen next? o_O

Posted by: Flynne at September 7, 2007 8:29 AM

Relax, Shinobi
Bend over and crack a smile
Lena's coming in!

Posted by: Lena at September 7, 2007 8:29 AM

ACK! Lena's so bold!
Will Shinobi give it up?
Film at eleven...

Posted by: Flynne at September 7, 2007 8:46 AM

Alas sweet Lena.
Shinobi lures you from me.
Be sure to get pix.

Posted by: martin the scorned at September 7, 2007 11:13 AM

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