TO: Amy Alkon, et al.
RE: Too Funny

A clever girl, but a bit overly involved with herself.

She needs to attend the forthcoming Mensa Annual Gathering in Denver. She'd have a wonderful time spoofing everyone.

Some guy M would probably catch on, slap her around a bit and say something like, "Who are we talking to now?"

Then he'd call for a 'crash cart', reaching for the defib paddles. Failing that, as most hotels don't have crash carts, he'd ask for a taser....

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Wanna play 'doctor'?]

Mensa?!

When it comes to Mensa, I'm in agreement with this guy:

http://ask.metafilter.com/22917/Getting-into-Mensa#366350

From Mensa's website:

Annual subscription costs: $52.00 (for US membership)

Cost for Test Evaluation: $30.00

Cost for Supervised Test: $30.00

Cost for Home Test: $18.00

Mensa is kinda like Who's Who Among America's High School Students... basically a scam to get money from those pathetic, introverted individuals who need to convince others that they're really special, because they can't do it through the greatness of their actions or accomplishments.

I do have to add that I don't like him dissing introverts, who, in general, are simply people who don't thrive on being in groups of people as much as extroverts do.

Ya know for not being mind readers we men can figure out emotion and body language. When we ask whats wrong we know something is wrong, when women say nothing we let it go, after al we made the effort

Now if some woman comes up to me on a date and starts in on how she named her cats after an abotion case I'd want out after all that isnt stable behavior.

If she has an attitude about her that is just daring me to reject her I will - I dont need the fucking drama that sort of relationship would produce

If I were at a speed dating event and heard about the crazy PETA abortion cat lady who was a work aholic laywer with a doctorate in economics who just also happeded to be an astornaut, a political cominator and god knows what else I would show up either

And, on a metaphorical level, who wouldn't chose a girl who pulls off thorns instead of devoting herself to sticking them in?

And for an honest test of this hypothesis of hers, you'd have to go in as the lawyer, etc., but without all the aggression and attitude. I know human rights lawyers -- like Ben Schonbrun:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0509-02.htm

These are generally people who are passionate about making the world a better place, and who are excited about their work. I generally find that inspiring, and so do probably a lot of people. If you truly are a human rights lawyer, and you talk passionately about your work, men might find that attractive. Plus, passionate = into sex, perhaps?

Meant wouldn't show up

I know a fair number of men who would love to argue abortion both morally and legally (if you're reading this, hi babe!). I love love love heated debates. But: there is a time and a place. I would NEVER immediately spout off about the insanely boring investment banking products I spend my days ensuring are running properly. That just isn't an interesting way to start a conversation when you first meet someone.

After a few dates it is nice to discuss "work" even if it's not that exciting. After all, when you start to care about someone and are interested in him/her as a person it's nice to hear about what they do. But the first date (esp. the first few minutes!) is NOT the time or place to immediately discuss that. It's not that most men prefer the boring florist over the economist - it's that when she was playing the role of the economist she threw it in his face right away like he'd care. If a guy I just met started on me about his latest research project I'd go into an ADHD coma while staring blankly into space - I need to be "into him" before I can listen to something like that w/ interest. Otherwise he comes off as a poor conversationalist, boring, and unable to recognize the signs of a coma (as I'd be in one).

Her experiment was a decent idea but horribly executed and proved nothing. Well, it did prove something: that she has no idea how to conduct a real experiment.

"boring florist over the economist"

lemme rephrase: florist over the boring economist...but then again, boring is subjective. I personally think economics is far more exciting than flower arranging. It's totally subjective...but listening to a person's econometric research project is, objectively, much denser and heavier than what florists do (not putting florists down here, but you don't exactly go get your PhD and have to take advanced calc to prove formulas in flower arranging).

Ooo, Heidegger. Maybe the guy just didn't dig Nazis. Now if she had said she was reading Schopenhauer I'd've ripped her clothes off on the spot.

Great post. Just curious, is your server strong enough to survive a farking/digging/... whatever?

Hmm, Ellie Mae Clampett..

You know what men find attractive (in my experience, anyway)? A woman who is fun, alive, confident and comfortable with herself. I've never been a sylph, but have never had trouble attracting relationships when I'm in a good space with myself.

The author of the article seemed to go out of her way to be none of those.

Oooh, I would love a Farking, a Digging, a Metafiltering, and a whatever else. And yes, my server can take it!

A friend of mine is much heavier than this woman is, but she's smart, fun, kind, and has tremendous style and sex appeal, so men are always drawn to her.

P.S. Just so you know, more traffic means more $ for me from Pajamas' ads on my site. And while I love more traffic in general, and more readers of my work, more money is especially nice!

TO: Amy Alkon
RE: [OT] This 'Guy'

'Mensa is kinda like Who's Who Among America's High School Students... basically a scam to get money from those pathetic, introverted individuals who need to convince others that they're really special, because they can't do it through the greatness of their actions or accomplishments." -- Amy Alkon

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

As for his focus on 'introverts', well....it just goes to show you how ignorant he is. The Ms that go to events and organize their own Special Interest Groups are hardly what anyone in their 'right' mind would call 'introverts'.

The life of Denver Mensa is in the SIGs. One of my favorites was Social Pre-Adjustment; go to Brewery Bar II and eat their stunning green chili until the sweat rolled off our foreheads and we laughed like crazy from the endorphin rush. Then off to Social Readjustment at Spikes, or some other biker bar, for pool and beer.

The group was made up of an eclectic collection ranging from medical pathologists from a major Denver hospital, through assorted US Postal Service letter carriers, military officer and NCOs, a clerk from the Colorado Supreme Court to some guy built like Bull from Night Court and a voice like he had a double-handful of gravel in his throat...who owned a junk yard. [Note: He was the SIG coordinator for Best Bars and Derelicts. His SIG's claim to fame was that it had been thrown out of ever dive in Denver, for being too rowdy.

I helped with that on a couple of occasions. I'm particularly fond of going at it with one rabid feminist postal worker.]

Introverts? Yeah. Right....

[Note: This 'guys' credibility has some serious problems.]

RE: On Topic

The girl seems to be intelligent. But that doesn't mean she's a 'good' person. [Note: See discussion down the hall from here about Will Smith's opinion about Hitler.]

But Mensa doesn't care about your motivations.

Based on your report, she'd fit right in. And probably (1) have some fun, (2) meet people who would see through her games for who she REALLY is, (3) learn something and (4) meet the right guy for her.

After all....

....the distaff did.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. It took the distaff seven years to figure it out, though.

Gee. I see a character in Bradbury's "The Watchful Poker Chip of H. Matisse". How long as a Cellar Septet, Chuck?

"I've always been "easy,""

Yeah really? You busy tonight?

Rather than speed dating, someone needs to start a dating analog to the slow food movement. When I was separated from my wife a few years a go I could go on 3 dates and still not know if I even liked the girl. But maybe that's just me.

How terrible, really. People have enough problems dating around without others intentionally trying to ruin their encounters. I believe that it wasn't the woman's display of 'intelligence' that scared the men off, but that the men were intelligent enough to pick their battles and decided that this didn't need to be one of them.

Did it also not occur to Tanya Gold that perhaps some of those men may have been as truthful with her as she was with them? If she did and the thought outraged her (as I suspect it would), then even more shame on her. To that, what would she recommend to a group of women faced with similar circumstances? Would she heartily endorse that they go with the grouch in the corner who says he's got a PhD, or would she rather steer them towards the guy who ISN'T obviously looking for a fight that night?

Really! I would like to see the day where this bullshit 'testing' of men and women comes to an end.

"A friend of mine is much heavier than this woman is, but she's smart, fun, kind, and has tremendous style and sex appeal, so men are always drawn to her."

can you expound on this a bit, please? everything i've read, to date, in your columns and/or on your blog indicates that you believe men never want women who are fat or less than beautiful.

Truthfully trina, we dont

But men are far more pragmatic then women, generally speakng, and many of us are willing to settle

Ever wonder why women are asking why all the good guys are married?

Its becuase they might found somthing close enough to 'perfect' to make them content and stopped wasting time on people who wouldnt pay attention to them

Nah, curvy is okay. And it ain't the Proust. I worked very hard to be able to read Remembrance of Things Past in French and yet something about her still seems less than appealing. Methinks bitterness is her true enemy.

Ugh, Amy. Why do you say you're easy, as if it's a badge or something? For one thing, you just finished saying how choosy you are, so it isn't even true.

Actually, this experiment was interesting to me, although it was poorly carried out in her overacting. For one thing, in spite of her fat flaw, (which Amy was pleased to point out - in case we didn't notice it) - a very large proportion of speed dates did ask her out the second time, and not because she lost weight. I think it's because she smiled so much. I read once that the best thing you can give a man is a smile, and that's why all the models in ads (tv, not fashion) are smiling all the time. To have a beautiful woman smile at a man is so great for him! And yes, it works with beautiful men, too! I am such a sucker...

Speaking of, Chuck(le), is it true Mensa people are just that much more beautiful than other people, as well?

Ugh, Amy. Why do you say you're easy, as if it's a badge or something? For one thing, you just finished saying how choosy you are, so it isn't even true.

Donna perhaps you have what I call "received values," that it's awful to have sex right away. I don't. I'm joking about it in the way people do, but I like sex and I have it when I want it, and on the first date if I feel like it. I know that sometimes means a guy won't be interested in a second one, but as with the convo with the shrink, I know the consequences. Another way I've said it is, "I've always found it cheapest to give away sex for free."

Thanks, but don't correct how I live or how I say I live. I slept with Gregg before the official first date. I met him at The Grove, at the Apple store, we went and had Orange Crush for three hours, and then he had to go to Tunica (Mississippi) for a week. We talked on the phone that week, and when he came back, he came over to take me to dinner, but we never left my house. In short: I'm easy, and it's always worked fine for me.

You want to hold out six dates to have sex with a guy, go for it. I'm a hot blooded post-Jewish girl, and life is short, and I'm going to spend a lot of mine naked in bed (among other places).

People who are in Mensa and announce it are like people who let you know they went to Harvard, slipping it into conversation the first time you meet them.

"A friend of mine is much heavier than this woman is, but she's smart, fun, kind, and has tremendous style and sex appeal, so men are always drawn to her."

She's French and exotic, dresses as if styled by a top Hollywood costumer, and her last boyfriend was black. Black men seem to care a lot less about weight. It isn't that fat women can't ever find boyfriends, it's that they diminish their chances to a great degree.

Girls should be taught that they need to be attractive to attract the best men, and how, exactly they accomplish it, not the big lie that what's inside is "all that counts." Sure, the inside counts for a lot, but will any men get to see that if the outside isn't what they find attractive?

You get, as lujlp mentioned above, the guys who have to settle for fat girls.

We all get dealt some genetic cards and we have to do the best with them - but if possible, don't handicap your chances, girls, by being overweight.

It must be really fucking hard for people to understand or else Amy wouldn't be in business. But the rules for dating are simple: Be clean. Be nice. Have fun. Lather, rinse, repeat till you find someone who makes you want to come back.

Mensa: LOL

Another thing on Mensa: If you're intelligent, I'll know it by talking to you. You don't have to tell me you got exemplary test scores.

And regarding her alleged success with men in her florist incarnation -- two things: I'm wondering if she dressed differently (sexy instead of frumpy). Also, guys will often give a girl who seems nice the benefit of the doubt, go out with her once or twice before deciding she's got the intellect of a houseplant and they just can't do it.

I’m 49 and still find myself dating from time to time. I was married once, and figured out a long time ago that you have to be happy with yourself being single. I would have liked to get married again, but I’m not making the same mistake twice. The next time I meet someone I would consider a life long partner, I think we’ll just live together and take it one day at a time instead of falling into that mindset of being hooked at the hip forever.

I thought that as I got older, dating would get harder and I would meet fewer women. I was wrong. I seem to get a lot more interest out of women today than I ever have in my life. I’m not really sure why. It seems as thought there are a lot more women out there looking at this age than I expected. I try to keep myself looking good to some extent. I’m almost six feet tall, 200 lbs, my hair is turning gray and I’m going to leave it that way. I’ve had a lot of women tell me that I have ‘Richard Gere’ eyes. OK, I think that’s good. I have three Harleys and love to ride, best psycotherepy in the world. A lot of women like riding so I get asked to take them for a ride a lot. It's a great way to get aquianted. I also have a Bachelors of Science degree in computer science so I’m usually in a good job making decent money. The thing that women say they like most about me is my sense of humor. I get that from my mom. But the point is, that over the years, I have made some effort to look at myself as a whole package. If you don’t, how can you expect anyone else too?

Speaking of my mom’s sense of humor, here’s an example. My mom is a little old lady with an old Lincoln Towncar and the engine died in it. She saw an ad in a Pep-boys flyer for a new motor for six hundred bucks. So she called them up and asked about it. They told her that a motor for her car would be about 3200 bucks. She asked, “What about these six hundred dollar motors?” The guy at Pep-boys said, “Lady, I’ll be honest with you, you wouldn’t want one of those motors, there are made on assembly lines and about two hundred different people put their hands on those.” Mom said, “you happen to be talking to a little old lady from Detroit who knows that ALL motors are made on assembly lines, what the hell did you think, they we’re going to chisel one out just for me?” The man was speechless.

But the thing I’ve found that makes it hard for us to settle with somebody these days are the deal breakers. I don’t mean so much ‘high standards’ just standards to start with. I think some women have too many and I probably do too. Here are some of mine.

NO Drugs. I grew up around them so much, I thought Pulp Fiction was the story of my teen age years. I feel like most of the women I meet are doing something. Hell, I live in Ocean Beach, what can you expect?
NO Kids. I grew up in a family of six kids. I hated it. I had to play parent to my younger siblings and I think that soured me on kids for the rest of my life. I’m 49 and I think having kids at this age is sheer madness.
NO fat women. I just don’t find it attractive and could not crawl into a bed with a big blob. Tall women on the other hand are just fine, I’ve dated a few over six foot two and love them.
NO women who are looking for a meal ticket. They are out there.
NO married women. I get this all the time, “Oh, I’m still married but we’re legally separated and waiting for the divorce to be finalized” then you find out they’re not really legally separated yet, still living together, then it’s OH SHIT, how did I get into the middle of this. Big mistake.
NO angry women. I am just the kind of man that makes them angry. Why pour fuel on the fire?

So by the time I find the one woman in the county who doesn’t have any of my deal breaker problems, I figure out that I have one of hers. Oh well, life goes on. I think the secret to a successful love life is matching baggage. We all have our baggage, we just need to find someone with the same set.

I have to agree with you about MENSA. I had a friend try to talk me into it once, (I have over a 140 IQ which is their requirement), but I didn’t because I think people who tend to group together because of their similarities create a boring sameness. Being intelligent doesn’t necessarily make you interesting.

i just have to mention the deliciously ironic fact that mensa in spanish means stupid. in common, crude street spanish it's used to call someone a retard.

the notion of doing your best with what you've been dealt genetically - which implies that anyone (well, maybe almost anyone?) can look good enough to feel good about how they look - is much more palatable than the notion that only the perfectly skinny and beautiful will ever be wanted by anyone.

and, even having looked at the photos of tanya, i'd argue that if she were joyful instead of bitter, and if she dressed differently (did better/more with what she has), she could look good to both herself and someone else...?

but then that leaves me with a technical question, and i swear i'm not being snarky, at least not intentionally. i do genuinely wonder about this: what does a woman who puts a lot of time and energy into makeup and clothing that enhance (disguise?) her actual looks/figure -- what does she do about what i'm guessing is a vast discrepancy between her public image which wins her the man (or woman or whatever) and the way she looks in the morning when they wake up together and her make up is either completely gone (washed off before bed) or smeared all over the pillow case and/or her face and she doesn't have the schmancy costuming to cover up with?

The guy at Pep-boys said, “Lady, I’ll be honest with you, you wouldn’t want one of those motors, there are made on assembly lines and about two hundred different people put their hands on those.” Mom said, “you happen to be talking to a little old lady from Detroit who knows that ALL motors are made on assembly lines, what the hell did you think, they we’re going to chisel one out just for me?” The man was speechless.

I just love your mother.

And trina, about Mensa in Spanish, that's rich!

And you're right. If she looked like fun, like the kind of girl who's always bubbly (without being an idiot), she might attract a few guys.

I have yet to meet a guy who likes troweled-on makeup.

Not everybody can be perfectly skinny and beautiful (and not all skinny people are so hot looking) but being "bien dans sa peau," (comfortable in your skin) counts for a lot. And people who are tend to project more happiness and good feeling than people who aren't.

Ms. Gold's little experiment had one huge flaw: she impersonated an obnoxious woman and a ditz, but she didn't try the third alternative...behaving like a good conversationalist with a smart sense of humor and a bit of self-confidence.

Instead, she "proved" the theory that Men Are Assholes without examining the fact that she set up the experiment to get that result.

The one element she left out of the equation completely was kindness and decency. Men and women alike, in my experience, are looking for that above all, if they're kind and decent themselves. And if they're not, why would you want to date them?

> this book I just ordered

Ohfer Chrissake.

In about 1993, some satirical source asked its readers to what good use they'd put their hardback copies of Hawking's "Brief History of Time." Many readers reported that it was a good width for when a piece of furniture had a broken pediment, and you needed to even it up again so it wouldn't wobble. I'd used mine to jam open the northwest window of my Brentwood one-bedroom, the one just over the stereo's perch of bricks 'n boards, which brought in a nice breeze from the kitchen. I noticed that the handsomely dark-toned, never-creased paper cover resisted fading even in the Southern California daylight, which was important... Because this window was where the eye first fell when guests walked in the front door, and I wanted them to know exactly what kind of host they were dealing with. And they always did.

What, the fuck, are you going to do with "Non-Aristotelian Systems and General Semantics"? Something for the dog, I'd wager. The pages are probably too shiny and non-absorbent for use during cleanups, but I bet they can be crumpled and put under a towel to cushion her sleep-basket or something.

> that she's not only
> overweight

I think she looks good. Women are shaped like that.

> dresses about as sexy
> as Miss Hathaway

I'm even cool with the clothes. That's a sexual shade of red, and the tailoring offers no lies about what's underneath.

The tell is in her posture:

• Her lips aren't parted for the smile in either photo.

• In the outdoor shot, her hands are poised as if for devotion, or as if one part of her interior life is handing off a payout in coins to another part; She is not thinking of her admirers, even as she looks us in the eye.

• Her feet are in the posture that white middle-class women have when their uptight parents force them to take dance classes at age 6. (We see now that the child was not destined for glissade.) I have this theory that the girls who don't outgrow this default stance are letting us know they've never really had a deep formative experience thereafter; they've maybe never changed the voltage of their relationships with their parents & teachers, or maybe never again tried to do anything interesting and challenging with their bodies. I'm kinda serious about this. The guys who played football in high school walk differently than those of us who didn't, and for the rest of their lives.

She's cute! You're right about the snotty article though. But there are a lot of people without an idea in their heads who try to make a living by writing things. Young women often fall back on snooty, feminist-seeming themes, as if to score points for being righteous. We shouldn't take it personally. Girlfriend needs to pay rent.

PS- In one of my few genuine Celebrity Encounters™, Joan Rivers buried my ass with a shitstorm of one-liners during a five-story elevator ride. Just for practice.

Okay, well I love submitting links to FARK, I'm choosy too and the metafilter/digg crowd, well bleh. (Nah, I just waste too much time at FARK, don't need more than that.)

But you may want to ask your webmaster to stick all those crazy javascripty things that allow a user to make it very easy to submit your pages to the various sites.

I asked, because well, FARK melted Glenn Sacks' server last week, and sometimes, as I've seen at other sites, there are some real cretins that come along for the ride.

I could never get through "A Brief History Of Time," but I'm doing a lot of thinking about thinking, and predispositions humans have toward irrationality lately. This is a book that was a big influence on Albert Ellis, and I've read about Korzybski for years in Ellis' work, so I ordered the book. A more consumer'y book on thinking that I read in an afternoon is Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts. I read really tough stuff all the time; I usually don't mention it.

Anytime you want to FARK something on my blog, you be my guest! Do let me know if it gets on the FARK list, and I'll ask Gregg to ask them to give us more bandwidth. It's always an option, so no big deal.

TO: Amy Alkon
RE: [OT] People....People Being People.....

"People who are in Mensa and announce it are like people who let you know they went to Harvard, slipping it into conversation the first time you meet them." -- Amy Alkon

Sounds like people who tell you, first time you 'meet' them, you're a syndicated columnist.

But, actually, Amy, you didn't find out about my membership in Mensa until some character challenged my mental capabilities on your blog-site.

So I asked them to show me their Mensa membership number.

Ever since then, the people here suffering from low-self-esteem over mental capabilities seem to want to hammer me. Just like the ones with low-self-esteem vis-a-vis courage like to try to hammer me because it came out I did time in the Army as an airborne-ranger.

Whose problem is this? Mine? Hardly....

But it is kind of nostalgic....seeing the same sophomoric tripe I've seen 40 years ago, in high school.

So, Amy. Are you 'ashamed' of what you are?

Why should I be?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Nobody lights a candle and hides it under a bushel. -- Some Wag, around 2000 years ago.]

P.S. Isn't it interesting that despite all your complaining about my capabilities, I don't spend nearly as much time expressing my low opinion of yours.

P.P.S. Anytime you want to get back ON-TOPIC, it's fine with me.

Or we can start talking about you.....

Sounds like people who tell you, first time you 'meet' them, you're a syndicated columnist.

Chuck, we've never met.

Oh, I see, 'meet' them.

What do you suggest I do, title my site "Anonymousbroad.com"?

can we not let this chuck guy derail this conversation?

despite her poorly carried out experiment, i think tanya does have a point. i think there are indeed a lot of men out there who are intimidated by women who are smart, assertive and dynamic. (now is the time for lots of people to tell me otherwise...)

so far, in my own life, i've observed and experienced it quite often. i have a dear male friend who had a domineering, critical, controlling mother and as a result he cuts and runs at the slightest display of female power. it has cost him some awesome girlfriends. maybe therapy would fix his issues or maybe he just needs to be with a woman who is meeker than he..?

in my own life, my latest burly rock climing boyfriend made for a great climbing partner and adventure mate, but it was such a continual source of ego-bruising for him to be with a woman who is smarter and generally more dynamic than he. he flat out told me he was afraid of me, intimidated by me, and it was really a huge issue when i beat him at scrabble. having my man be intimidated by me is extremely unappealing.

there's an unspoken "truth" in the rock climbing world which is that women don't want to date men who can't climb harder than them. you gotta be burlier than yer girl. me, i'd be happy just to be MATCHED by my man in terms of gusto, joy, energy, assertiveness so that i don't out-assert, frighten and intimidate my partner just by being smart and sassy, full of mischief and eager to suck the marrow out of the bones of life. someone please tell me there are men out there who don't find all of that SCARY.

i think tanya does have a point. i think there are indeed a lot of men out there who are intimidated by women who are smart, assertive and dynamic.

Sure there are, but the answer isn't wishing those men death. It's just realizing that it may be a little harder to find a boyfriend if you're smart, assertive, and dynamic...and even harder if you bring "assertive" into your relationship.

By this I don't mean you should be some pushover. But, that being a demanding bitch isn't going make a man love you. I'm writing about that this weekend. Women make a big mistake by telling a man what to do. Men tend to find this emasculating. If you want a man to do something, you ask diplomatically, in a way that doesn't make him feel wrong or like a failure.

If you're truly powerful and secure you don't have to be Fidel Castro in your relationship. It's the weak ones who put on a show of strength who do that.

If you want a man to do something, you ask diplomatically, in a way that doesn't make him feel wrong or like a failure.

can you give some examples of what you mean, pleez?

"Honey, I'm having the worst time finding my something or other in the garage. Do you think you could help me?"

As opposed to, "The garage is a total mess. You need to clean up all that crap you've amassed."

You let a guy help you solve a problem and come to the conclusion himself about what needs to be done, and then take action. Now, if he doesn't come to that conclusion, perhaps you need to revisit the issue, but again, without kneecapping him in the ego, and making him feel bad -- like he's failed.

This isn't the best example, but I'm in a rush because I have a work deadline in half an hour. If somebody else can come up with something they want their boyfriend or husband to do, post it and I'll do the translation.

Oh, in short, you don't get a man to take action by making him feel like a disappointment to you. And men tend to bristle at being given orders.

About Women and makeup.

Showgirls in Vegas wear it for 'somebody'.
Can't be the women in the crowd. According to you, it can't be the men,either.
So, who is it for? Them?

Glamour Magazines "Trowel it on" their cover girls. Playboy "trowels" it on theirs too.
Are you saying both magazines play for the same market?
Ergo, "Somebody" is indeed attracted to the Heavy Make Up look. Maybe it is just a small, but very influential group of Magazine Cover Photographers?

I think many men prefer women to like neatly & prettily madeup. But, in todays world, none will admit it. On the other hand, NO woman ever misses an opportunity to point out how "badly" another woman's make is applied, or how they "think" it makes her look.
Of Course, maybe their Husbands/boyfriends/SO's are admiring a woman who is confident enough to go out Made Up!

The days of the "Au Natural" woman are long past.
And Good Riddance.
(and yes, I do dress up when we go out. Tie , wingtips and all)

so, davis, how does your woman handle the make up issue when it comes to going to bed/getting tousled/waking up together? how do you feel about how differently she looks when she's dolled up for the hot date vs. The Morning After?

I wear piles of makeup on TV, too. You need to be able to see somebody's features properly when they're on stage or on camera.

Guys tend to be turned off by a woman who, in day-to-day life, looks like she's going on camera or dancing in a Vegas chorus line.

Women on magazine covers, ads, etc., are heavily retouched -- so you can't tell how heavily made up they are. If you ever see, for example, Cameron Diaz, on a magazine cover, she won't look like she's ever had a pimple in her life. And I believe she's had lifelong trouble with acne.

I'm not suggesting women go makeup free, but there's a line between looking put-together and looking like the man in the big purple Escalade will be around for you any minute to take you to your next...client.

The days of the "Au Natural" woman are long past.

are not. are not. are not. i mountain bike, ski, rock climb, ice climb, camp, backpack, etcetera. make up makes no SENSE in any of those activities. i have naturally curly, thick hair and long, dark eyelashes. boyfriends have said they couldn't tell when i had mascara on or not so i don't bother. i do shave my legs and pits and wear deodorant and perfume. i love getting dolled up but it doesn't involve make up, just sexy clothes. when i had a schmancy museum job i wore make up for work, for board meetings, for art openings, for gallery dinners, etc., but since i dropped out of that world and became a mail carrier, now i'm outside all day and i walk 10 miles a day on my route. i don't wear make up for that, but still i get asked out or complimented on my looks or whistled at weekly.

I do not go out in sweatpants, etc. -- I'm basically always dressed, and often dressed to the nines just to go to a cafe to write, because I love dressing up. But, I'm not necessarily more attractive with lots of makeup on; in fact, I can be less attractive. I always wear pink lipstick when I go out, at the very least. (And sunblock and a fine dusting of translucent powder over that.)

How cool, trina, that you're a mail carrier. I bet you have a great ass.

and legs.

interesting that you say you can be less attractive w/make up. i had a boyfriend who was an artist and we were always going to openings and hoity-toity events where we'd get all dressed up - when i put make up on for one and asked his opinion about it, he said he preferred me without. he also bemoaned the fact that i lost a pants size when i became a mail carrier. he liked me curvier and ever so slightly plump.

ugh. sorry to "go all ME ME ME" on you. my point is simply that natural can be beautiful - and i think natural is MORE beautiful than hoochie mama.

I'm with Crid: I think she's cute. Okay, I'll be honest. I look like Tanya (my skirts tend to be shorter, though, because I have great legs), so I'm going to stick up for her to a certain extent. As someone else said, it's too bad she didn't complete her experiment and tried "fun and smart" because from my own experience that's a winner with men, too.

Trina & Amy
I'll admit there are times and places for evrything. And, Yeah waking up in the morning, nobody is at their best. Not a problem.
I said "I prefer" that look.
I don't expect 'showgirl' looks while rock climbing.
But, neither of you addressed my point.
In fact you are both afraid to adress it, being so caought up in your Me,Me,Me screeds.

If not for men, OR women, then who?
A secret cabal of magazine & TV execs who like their woman that way?
I still say there a largish number of men who tell their woman the like the "Natural" look, when, in fact they do not. They are just going along, to get along.
This might explain the current intrest by guys in Amy Winehouse. It is not because of her singing....

Another thing to hate about this is that it completely discounts the power of vibes. She deceived one batch of guys and got one result that she didn't like. Then she deceived another batch of guys and got another result she didn't like. Yes, certainly: The guys were all working an angle too, and a setting like that is going to be fraught and insincere. But almost by definition, speed-dating isn't a good sample of a person's company.

I did address is, davis, you just didn't pay attention. Women on magazine covers often do not look overly made up because they are airbrushed. Their foundation doesn't look troweled on - the don't look like they're wearing foundation.

Men like women to look pretty, beautiful, and sexy. Makeup is supposed to conceal flaws and highlight beauty. When there's so much makeup that it's the first thing a guy notices, this is bad.

Oh yeah, and I do have to add...Me! Me! Me! Me! (I was feeling starved for attention.)

Did address IT, I mean.

Sorry.

ME! ME! ME!

There, feel much better now.

Women's magazines are also designed to sell products...to women. That includes makeup.

"...you don't get a man to take action by making him feel like a disappointment to you. And men tend to bristle at being given orders."

I assume that this truth is gender neutral in a romantic relationship between healthy individuals (excluding consensual sex games). Does what you have read (or encountered in the letters people send you) suggest that this approach is generally well received by women?

The other night, at a Christmas party, I met a dermatologist who looked like the actress Jane Adams -- to me, a turn-on.

Not just trying to make nice, but generally interested, I asked her all sorts of stuff: where she went to school, how long extra for the specialty (and why); dividing her practice between public and private hospitals; etc. She answered 'em all, interestingly.

When she asked about me, I changed the subject back to her. Not that I have anything to hide; it's just that I'm not all that fascinating.

No matter. At the earliest opportunity, she excused herself. And I hadn't even got around to showing her my rash!

It's rough out there...

Does what you have read (or encountered in the letters people send you) suggest that this approach is generally well received by women?

Many women seem not to understand this, or they're just too impatient to hold back and do things the way that preserves the guy's ego and the relationship...which, in the long run, costs them.

Gregg does tell me what to do, and that's fine; in fact, I appreciate it. Now, he isn't micromanaging my entire life. But, there are certain areas I need help in. I have ADHD, am bad at figuring out when I should leave to get someplace, and find driving in traffic nightmarish. He told me I needed to leave at 3:30, and he was right. And he tells me other stuff like that that I really appreciate. And I ask him to pick what I'm going to have for dinner if we're in a restaurant. Now, I've been choosing my own dinners for a lot of years. But, I realized early on that whatever he ordered was always better than what I ordered. He'll figure out what I'll like better than I will, so why not let him?

Not all women are comfortable with a man telling them what to do. I don't feel insecure or powerless, so I find it relaxing to have Gregg pitch in when he knows better than I do.

Since he's a man, if I have to tell him something (for example, "I hate that shirt, never wear it again"), I instead say something about how the shirt is "okay," but he looks great in his blue shirts. He gets the message. And if I want him to do something for me, I ask him sweetly, I don't tell him to do it. (He has a mother, and I'm not her.) With a little extra effort -- beyond what it takes to just snap orders at somebody -- you can have a really nice relationship with somebody.

If a man at a speed-dating session were to act the way Tanya did, I'd go running for the hills. I'm successful and over-educated, and I like successful, educated men, but if my date started off the conversation the way she did, I'd think he was confrontational, bitter and arrogant.

I guess what I'm saying is that women also hate insufferable asses.

"Women don't want to believe it -- and I get fired from papers every time I say it -- but men, by and large, except for a few chubby chasers, don't want fat girls."

I think it's odd that a significant number of women would feel annoyed at reading the above and want to retaliate against you for stating it. Why exactly do women have so much difficulty with the reality that the vast majority of men prefer slender women? Just about any woman can lose excess weight and improve her appearance. If a woman does so, her life will be all the better for it. However, a man's social status and economic position are subject to the vagaries of luck and fate, and he can do little about his height. When it comes to improving their attractiveness to the opposite sex, women seem to have it far better than men.

To add to Jamie's comment, when you tell men that women prefer tall, attractive men who are financially stable and successful (the last by far being the most important), with the exception of a few loud whiners, most all men will understand and agree. It may not be fair but it is what it is. Most would respond with 'yeah, and it sucks' and lament their lack of social standing but few men (maybe none) would be clamoring to have the Advice Goddess culled from the local rag. I have to agree--men are much more pragmatic. I wonder what the source of this disconnect is?

Doc, I suspect you're correct when you say that men are much more pragmatic about this issue (and perhaps others). Why exactly is this?

I wondered about this for an embarrassingly long time until I came across this post, written on Usenet:


Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most guys who aren't incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which
women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success are remote.

Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive
they are to men in general. They assume that any man is just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it's because he
approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to
have sex with them.


The same writer also wrote this:


How many women have you overheard saying, "That man finds me sexually worthless"? Typically a woman rationalizes away a man's lack of interest by saying he is commitment-phobic, or he is a man who "cannot love," or he's gay, or he "has issues," etc. How many women state the obvious: "I'm just not attractive to most men"?

The weird thing is that lots of women are well aware that they have physical flaws; a few women might even understand that they have personality flaws. But few women seem able to understand what a given level of flawed-ness translates into.

That book "He's Just Not That Into You" was like a great intellectual leap for women, as if many women did not even have the concept that a man might not want to have sex with them (or keep having sex with them). Women have been sold the huge lie that every woman is equally entitled to the same storybook relationship with her dream man. And women generally believe it because they don't hit on guys and get rejected hundreds of times.

Do you think anybody needs to write a book "Dude: Chicks Don't Dig You"? "Dudes" already know they don't get much love from most chicks.

All that's true, but it's masculine nature to shrug your shoulders and try again tomorrow no matter what... Even if you're a poor, fat guy who was trying to score outside your league. Even if you struck gold the night before. Even if you got married the night before.

Everything after "Usenet" should have been italicized, as it was all written by one Usenet poster. I made an error when putting up that last comment.

Amy, you are so good at turning a phrase, and suggesting alternate ways of behavior or communication, as you just showed in how to ask someone to do something, that perhaps this is just a semantic disagreement.

Let me point out that it is you who refers to yourself as easy. There is no positive meaning to that word as used about either a woman or a man, which is why I dislike it. As you describe yourself, I'd say you like to make your own choices about when to have sex with someone. Now that's positive!

As far as counting dates with a man, I've always been bad with numbers...

Yeah, I've reclaimed it, like I've reclaimed "bitch." And I think being easy is a much better choice -- for me -- than being difficult. But, I think the truth is that you took issue with it -- the behavior, not just the word.

Crid: true that! I think this is the same reason a couple of guys can literally be beating the shit out of each other one moment and an hour latter be buying each other beers, each insisting he was the cause of the fight. Note that this not always true and mileage may vary; however, the key word here is pragmatic. A man may not like another man but it really takes so much less effort to just be friendly and drink PBRs together than to carry on a grudge.

Jamie: again, true that! Being single, there have been women who were, er, less than attractive (both in personality and physical appearance) who were under the impression that just because they were willing to spread their legs I would be instantly attracted to them. They were less than pleased with my response (or lack thereof). Hell hath no fury and all. And this was me trying to be kind but firm that I was not interested! Women by and large have no idea what a psychological kick to the man-biscuits it is to be scornfully rejected. However, it is a great lesson that life is not fair and the sooner one sheds illusions otherwise the better. Indeed, with more women entering the dating pool as the seeker, and not the sought, some small degree of equality will emerge. As Amy has pointed out in the past, there are an increasing number of men (myself included) who are fairly tacit about dating, dropping out of the dating pool, and refusing to engage in a feminist-inspired 'battle of the sexes' (i.e. refusing to date belligerent bitches like Tonya Gold). And I don’t mean ‘bitch’ like Amy is saying al a ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ (by Sherry Argov), ‘bitch’ here meaning a woman who is decisive, appropriately assertive and self-empowered and not abrasive and acrimonious like Ms. Gold.

But I talk too much. [Stepping off soapbox and putting down Miller Light]

Happy New Year (or 幸福な新年 in Japanese)!

Great to have you back, Doc.

And to answer your earlier question, I think feminism is partly to blame (why women get me fired from papers for saying men don't like fat women). It promotes the silliness that men "should" like you for what's within, based on a lack of understanding of biology, and the ensuing idea that male and female behavior is taught, not genetically driven.

Speed dating? Cringe. I can't imagine how this works for anyone but to each their own. I don't see myself ever employing this technique to meet a man but why would I try to prevent those who want to try it from doing so? Maybe they just get a big kick out of meeting a large number of potentials quickly. That was her first problem. She was out to get speed dating period -- just because it's not her cup of tea. And, yes, it was as stupid as trying to make someone drink coffee instead of tea because that's your bag. To each their own. I don't get it either but if no one was interested in speed dating, it'd die in the marketplace. They are and they harm no one so leave it the hell alone and just don't buy if it don't appeal to you.

That was her problem number two. She purposely marketed herself as unappealing then was surprised that no one bought the product in the soiled, ugly, unappealing brown wrapper. Then she consulted advertising experts and packaged the product right and was surprised when the product was picked up? Is she for real or what? But then again she is buying the frumpy clothes instead of pretty... so maybe she just doesn't get why packaging works on others and not her? (Though I notice she does wear makeup.)

As far as what attracts men: When I was in my 20's, I had an hourglass figure and wore some makeup and had money for the latest fashions etc. and turned heads. In my 30's, single parenthood took a toll. I gained weight and couldn't afford a new wardrobe every year. In fact, I often had to buy ugly clothes I hated to provide for my daughter before myself. I've recently lost between 70 and 80 pounds and I quit wearing the makeup in my 30's. But I am what I expect a guy to be: neat and clean and with something between his ears not to mention a sense of humor.

I noticed two things in my 30's when my daughter was growing up that still seem to hold true as I turn 50. 1. the kid's a turn-off. No one approaches when the kid (daughter or grandson) is around. 2. A smile is the best make-up in the world. When I was in a good, self-confident mood with my head held high and a smile on my face even when I was heavy in dumpy clothes and overweight in my 30's, I still turned heads. When I was in a bad mood, feeling very poor me and hating the world for the situation I put myself in and hence scowling at it, men stayed the hell away and I don't really blame them. (I had some bitterness to work out, believe me.)

Now my hair's half gray and I too refuse to dye but that's because I'm proud of my age (c'mon, I'm about to turn nifty-fifty) because it says something about the length of road I have traveled and because I've lived and learned from living life day to day. I've lost a good deal of the weight and still have some to go (a little more than half-way to my goal) but my attitude is improved and I'm turning heads.

The biggest thing I wonder about men is where are all these supposedly committment phobic guys? It seems we wind up breaking up eventually because I am very committment phobic and they get to a place where they want to marry or live together. No effing way! I am very envious of Amy's relationship with Gregg. That's my idea of an ideal relationship. And what she says about how you ask something just makes sense. Which guy would I most respond to one who orders or one who suggests? A guy orders me around, he's gone. I'll listen to someone who shows concern and makes a suggestion. Why should we expect guys to react any differently?

In short, a smile is the best beauty secret for man or woman. I know nothing melts me more than dimples and, if they're accompanied by a pleasant remark, I'm putty. It mystifies me when women want this from a man but treat men like they've no right to want the same from us. Someone mentioned Richard Gere above. I'm a big fan of the Howard Stern show and Artie Lange is a hoot but if I got to pick between him and pretty boy Richard...

Donna, you sound very wise.

And about my relationship with Gregg, I spent a lot of years not partnering up with anybody while looking to meet a guy who had what I was looking for.

A tip for girls: Little old ladies are the seers of dating. They can look at a guy and tell you whether he's a "keeper" or not. The little old ladies from the old folks home next to my favorite cafe always tell me "You hang onto him, sister" (meaning Gregg) and my grandma did as well. He's just an old lady magnet.

And he great to his mom. A more well-known clue to character.

I was walking around downtown pheonix behind these two women. The slender one said life wasnt fair but "it is what it is" when her fat, not heavy but fat, freind said it doesnt matter people needed to get over physical apperance.

I couldnt help but interject, I said I agreed with her and people should get over the trivial stuff and focus on what was on the inside, Ithen pointed out a homeless man taking a nap under a bus bench and sugggested she ask him out on a date.

The expression on her face was priceless
Just LOOK at him, was what she blurted out

Isnt it amazing how pointing out someone lower on society popularity pole they suddenly drop their demands that everyone 'be fair'

Everyone has had some good input on this subject, so I'm just going to add a coupla cents to it. I have found that in both men and women, a sense of satisfaction with themselves is very attractive. When people are at ease with themselves, they are at ease with others. As I once told a dear friend of mine, who was constantly anxious about whether she would ever find a boyfriend or a husband, "Listen honey, lighten up and take care of yourself. The right guy will come along, but if you're radiating desperation and neediness, he's going to keep on going! Desperation is NOT pretty."

I think feminism is partly to blame

Amy, I'm still waiting to see what you *don't* blame on feminism.

I can think of a few novels that predate the 20th century feminist movement by at least a hundred years where the plain-but-plucky heroine wins the affection of the Gentleman In Question. And I was raised with such homilies as "beauty is only skin deep," and "it's what's inside that counts" even as recently as the 1960's.

I blame feminism for my beer gut. *sniff*

I'm not saying it's justified or anything, but it's still they're fault, not mine.

I think that people in the past, despite the sayings to make the homely ones feel better, always had a sense of realism, that the plain daughter wouldn't marry well.

Feminism -- what feminism has become, anyway -- promotes a sense of entitlement, and the idiotic idea that men and women are the same, and male sexuality is thus wrong...that men are evil for having visually based sexuality...and that it's not simply a function of differing male biology. Different, but not wrong.

Feminism isn't, for example, to blame for meth use or the spread of radical Islam. But, it does plenty of damage by taking an irrational view of human nature, based not in biology, but in wishful thinking that the Andrea Dworkins of the world would be just as hot to men as the Salma Hayeks, etc.

As lujlp points out above, when's the last time the "beauty comes from within" wimmin went for homeless guys?

(Female biology, of course, directs women to go for providers, and to care less about looks...which is why you see beautiful young models out with scary little old men.)

"...it's still they're fault.."

I blame feminism for my lazy grammar, too! ;-)

Amy, the "biology" argument is selective and only goes so far. "Biology" should be telling you to pop out a baby a year, but I see you've managed to circumvent the bits of biology that don't work for you.

Regarding a sense of entitlement, it's not like that's exclusively a female preserve either. I've seen plenty of men, when turned down (even quite nicely) by a woman who may be out of their league (or just not interested) respond with "stuck up bitch!" rather than, "oh well, life's not fair."

"I've seen plenty of men, when turned down (even quite nicely) by a woman who may be out of their league (or just not interested) respond with "stuck up bitch!""

Wow. Where do you hang out?

Male sexuality is visual. That's not something that's variable, far as I can see. Sure, there are variations within male sexuality, but the visual thing is the same across cultures, whether there's television or not.

And when I "circumvent" biology, how do you know that isn't biology at work as well? I can't make myself want a homeless man, or a guy lacking in ambition. Guys, on the other hand, will hook up with girls who just want to be married to a guy with a paycheck or who work in a nail salon until they meet said guy -- not that there's anything wrong with that. Extraordinarily powerful men marry cocktail waitresses. It generally doesn't work the other way around. Powerful women want more powerful men. It's biology.

Again, are there exceptions. Sure. Generally speaking, men going for youth and beauty and women going for power/status/providers is the rule.

Wow. Where do you hang out?

In my 20's, I had a good friend who was drop-dead gorgeous. Think young Michelle Pfeiffer as a redhead. I witnessed this scenario multiple times when we were out on the town. The guys might not say it to her face, but mutter under their breath or corner me on my way to the ladies room and ask, "why is your friend such a bitch?" And she was a really nice person, never got snotty with anyone unless they were really drunk and/or obnoxious.

That's unfortunate, Deja

I think experiences like that would have 'cured' my desire to go out at all.

So what your saying, deja, is your freind is as shallow as most guys for rejecting men without 'getting to know them'?

Cause if that is not what you are saying then you are promoting a double stanndard wherin men have no right to rejcet arbitrarily or get upset when rejected bbut women do

deja pseu has a point. The male side of this is the "why don't women like nice guys" argument. It's the belief that you can be a drooping sadsack of a loser, but if your heart is good, you'll snare a supermodel. None of them are interested in the plain-but-fun girl they really have a shot at. I'm sure you've seen plenty of these types, Amy.

There's a general and widespread sense of entitlement today, of which feminism is just one example. The signal attribute is that people deserve all the good things in life, just because. And it's making a lot of people unhappy. Happiness comes from what you do and what you are, not from what comes to you, in my opinion.

lujlp, I'm not *promoting* anything, or defending the author of the article Amy posted. I'm just saying that there are overblown senses of entitlement on both sides of the aisle.

I'm also saying that there were men and women out there with overblown senses of entitlement (or at least the with desire to mate out of their league) long before the feminist movement.

Frankly, it was a combination of feminism and seeing how badly my mother fared financially after my parents' divorce (she'd been an SAHM for 17 years) that made me determined to be my own provider. So I've never been that swayed by guys with a lot of money; I was focused more on finding someone who made me laugh and shared my values. I was lucky enough to find him about 15 years ago.

The whole, women don't like to be told that they should stop being fat thing is interesting to me.
I don't know why we are surprised that it pisses people off to hear that you're never going to be happy because you have too much cellulite on your ass. In a society where young girls are raised on such films as Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, shall I go on? How can we be surprised that women are all expecting their very own "Happily Ever After."

(And I know, being fat is a "choice" but for some people it is a choice between being fat and permanantly starving themselves http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/healthscience/snfat.php?page=1)

I bet though, a lot of the women who are really upset by what Amy is saying, probably aren't really that fat. I mean, if I had two cents for every time I had to listen to some not fat girl talk about how fat she is I'd have my own island filled with hottie cabana boys by now.

I truly think that there is an unrealistic standard of beauty going on in this country. Along with an unrealistic standard of "committed relationship = lifelong happiness."

You may blame feminism... I blame Disney.

I try to dispel the myth that men "should" like you simply for your personality or that they're somehow bad people if they don't. I explain how male sexuality works -- it's visual. And it isn't just a question of weight: If you want to attract men, you need to be as attractive as possible. You'll have the best choice of men that way.

You can choose not to optimize how you look -- but you should understand that it will likely diminish your options.

Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, and women's magazines aren't to blame - they reflect our biology, and men's propensity for young, beautiful women (what we consider beauty being reflective of health and fertility, and the ability to pass on a man's genes).

Those fairy tales were around long before Disney took them over. I spent far too much time reading those as a kid, and I must admit, they left me with a somewhat warped perspective on how life should be. I wasted a lot of time in my teen years wondering why the whole ugly duckling to swan things didn't just happen. Took a long time to figure out that it doesn't just happen....you make it happen!

When women giggle, its the universal signal for a man that she likes him.

After chatting online for some time, my wife and I first talked on the phone, and despite being woman who ran 40% of a half billion dollar firm's operations, she still giggled like a girl, and afterwards, felt like a fool for doing so. Even today she is embarassed about it.

I had no idea what she looked like, but given her personality, intelligence, quickness, and fire, I'd have settled for something far less than what walked up to me from the bar. ( Even though she had carefully dressed to hide her appeal, I was still stunned. )

But, had she been overweight or not well-groomed, I would have stayed friends, but not more than that.

She has said the same to me, and despite being giddy and giggly that night, she was judging me ever more harshly. After all, that was her job at work.

Women need to realize that a good man will have just as high standards as you do. Your personal appearance reflects your character as much as your commitment to your job or your intellect.

Working out, knowing how to communicate with a good person, dressing right, and having a good attitude are unversally attractive. Once these basics are in place, then the real fun can begin.

Wow, Amy! Thanks. That meant a lot coming from someone I looked up on the internet because I liked her advice in our local free weekly.

It works both ways but sometimes, deja, psychology overrides biology. You're different because you watched your mom suffer. I like short men but have always suspected it's because my father was short and my mother tall. He'd try to beat her but she'd hit back (about the only two good lessons I thank her for is that and encouraging reading) and it was a draw. I think weirdly as a result, I feel safer with short men. Oddly enough, they aren't as drawn to me. The guys I've dated (with one exception and there was no chemistry though we're still great friends) were all my height or taller (though at 5'6" my height is short for a guy). I know in my head that's an illusion and a short guy can be every bit as dangerous as a tall one but I still like short guys (Richard Gere and Neil Diamond excepted).

I think it's important to note that we're also talking about the initial attraction here (with speed dating all you'd get is a first impression). These things could change when you get to know a person. The hunk could be as wacko as Tom Cruise and the plain overweight guy could be your perfect soul-mate. (Though I'd doubt the homeless guy or gal would. Frankly, there's got to be some bit of having your act together.)

A note on generalizations -- quoting my friend Satoshi Kanazawa, from a phone interview I did with him...

SATOSHI: "Evolutionary psychology as a science is not yet at the level of experimental physics. We can’t explain everybody. We only explain the general patterns. And the average man. So there are many, many men who like small breasts, including yours truly, so I can’t claim that theories explain everybody. (As for the guy who likes androgynous women)…I would say he’s an exception. …Theories are generalizations."

Her best line was "Let's not talk about me". In my experience, men (and often women) want to talk about themselves. So, if you listen well, people usually think you're charming, witty, kind, rich and great looking.

A lawyer, a doctor, a florist... I wonder what kind of results she may have encountered had she tried being herself?

"As lujlp points out above, when's the last time the "beauty comes from within" wimmin went for homeless guys? "

Are you seriously equating a few pounds of junk in the trunk with being homeless?

People become homeless as a result of mental illness and/or substance abuse. That heavyset woman was not being shallow when she reacted with horror at the idea of dating a schizo/druggie/wino, she was acting like a rational person. If she'd rejected dating a heavyset man, that would have been shallow.

I'm old enough to remember when people still said things like: "you can't judge a book by it's cover" and "beauty is as beauty does" and "beauty is only skin deep". It seems over the last 30 years or so, our culture has gotten ridiculous on the subject of looks.

I'm not saying men should date women they find replusive, but I'm sick and tired of men with guts hanging over their belts whining about how much they hate fat chicks, and jokers who haven't bought new clothes or changed their hairstyles since the Clinton Administration complaining that stylish women won't give them the time of day.

Amy,

The Guardian woman has to to seek help. Dr. Ellen Kenner has a radio show called Rational Basis of Happiness.

Here is an excerpt from my post, WRITING DOWN NEW RESOLVING THOUGHTS.

Relationships:
Keeping in touch with friends from my trips to around the world, e.g., Hungary. Down the road - when all the "pieces of the puzzle" are in place - searching for the right one... [Editor's note: Maybe I will find my future romantic partner on the dance floor? I have "two left feet," but I want to take dance lessons someday... I got very inspired by the documentary on Herräng Dance Camp.]

All the Best,

Martin Lindeskog - American in Spirit.
Gothenburg, Sweden.

So, manipulatively pretending to be a type of female which attracts 20% of men works better than manipulatively pretending to be a type of female which attracts 0% of men. Who could have predicted that?

"As lujlp points out above, when's the last time the "beauty comes from within" wimmin went for homeless guys? " Are you seriously equating a few pounds of junk in the trunk with being homeless?

I meant it as shorthand for "having no money."

As for men with big fat guts, if they're rich men with big fat guts, women will line up to date them. And men will line up to date gorgeous women who make minimum wage in nail salons.

RE: Deja's comments on male entitlement, I had a male friend in the mid '90s who claimed to have been brushed off by Cindy Crawford. I would not have believed he'd ever met or even seen her in person except that he complained about it so vehemently. The word "bitch" also popped up several times. I pointed out that she was married, and that she was a celebrity probably tired of being annoyed by ratty boys like himself, and that he would have had no place to take her after a date because he was still living at home with his mother. I don't think he heard any of it.

Has it occurred to this Einstein that "human rights lawyer" is code for "drooling left wing lunatic", and that would scare away any guy with a three digit IQ?

GREAT discussion. I have only one thing (hopefully interesting) to add, and it's about the whole "men find women who are [smarter/stronger/faster/whatever] than they are intimidating." Of course, you can't generalize, but generally, a man who's confident in himself, with a healthy self-esteem, will probably not be daunted by a woman whose prowess exceeds his in some areas. That being said, maybe it's when the woman's prowess exceeds his in his OWN area of expertise that freaks guys out. My husband defers to me in matters of politics, how much we have in the bank, educational choices for the kid, and lots of other stuff. He's good at fixing computer problems, but I'm better at the various programs we use, for instance. But I'm not a mechanic, and I'm not good at plumbing, woodworking, electrical repair, and all that stuff - if it has moving parts, he can fix it. If I were as good as him at that sort of stuff, it might make him feel threatened. But you know what? That's just one of those guy things. It's not a failing, it's just a feature of the standard model, and you can't blame them for it.

That's my particular pet peeve among the harmful effects of feminism - the idea that women and men are basically the same, and that the differences are cultural, not natural - nurtured versus natured. I don't believe that. I think that women and men are wired differently, and you just have to except that. Then again, I likely guy-y guys.

Men who are attracted to androgynous women? That's one thing that turns me off to no end.

Another mom story here.

My mom is old and had polio as a child so now she has post polio syndrome in her old age which breaks down to having bad joints. I got her a membership at a local health club which was pretty much older folks so she could go there and soak in the hot tub which made her feel a lot better. She call's me up one saturday morning and says, "Thats it! I am Never, Never cutting my hair short as long as I live!" I said what's wrong, she said, "Nothing pisses me off more than talking to someone in the hot tub with short hair and not knowing whether it's a man or a woman! And further, it's downright scary when they get out of the tub and you still can't tell!" Ok mom, stop, your ruining my breakfast.

Just discovered your blog. Love the way you write.

And I love your perspective. Bookmarked ya.

The archtypical male such as Americanus Robustus is not off put by intelligent women. She might be able to ponder Proust, or haggle over Hegel, but likely as not she can't fix a flat tire. And even if she can, she shouldn't have to. No matter what feminists claim, women still prefer a man who opens doors and performs the myriad other courtesies that a gentleman does by habit. Americanus R. is easy to spot because his speech is punctuated with archaic words like "sir" and "ma'am". He is usually taciturn until you get to know him, often answering complex questions with "someone had to" or "it needed doin'". He meets his superiors eye-to-eye, and to his inferiors he is polite even in the face of abject stupidity. His vices can be erased by a toothbrush, a hot shower, and twelve hours of sobriety. Women folk need to reacquaint themselves, especially advice columnists, with what it means to be a man. Americanus Robustus is alive and well, and more numerous than you imagine.

Bikerken, did your mom ever consider that maybe the short-haired woman in the hot tub had been battling cancer and lost her hair due to chemo?

TO: Amy Alkon
RE: On Meetings

"Chuck, we've never met." -- Amy Alkon

Earlier in this thread you're alluding to me trotting out my membership the first time you read one of my posts.

And you couched it in terms of 'the first time we met'.

So. I recollected that your web-site comments about how you're so proud of being a columnist.

Now, when I mention that, you say we've never 'met'.

Well....physically....no; we haven't.

The only way we've met is via the internet. And you're obfuscating......as I would expect of any 'journalist'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.]

TO: trina lindsey
RE: Easily!!!!!

"can we not let this chuck guy derail this conversation?" -- trina lindsey

And I agree.

Can we PUHLEASE get back ON TOPIC???!??!?

I'm tired of talking about me.

Heck. Ever since I suggested that this lady look into Mensa as a source for her 'cure', you [Amy], and your ilk, have been trying to hammer me, just because I'm a member of Mensa and think she would fit in to that 'interesting' group.

I offer a cure for her woes and I'm 'damned' for it?

Hooooow niiiiiiice.....

Regards,

Chuck(le)

P.S. Regarding our ever having 'met'....

....the way you wear your hair in the photo (upper left-hand corner) reminds me of something that scared my second daughter (age 1.5) half out of her mind when a friend of Ex-#2 showed up for a Halloween Party.

If you consider that justification for 'killing' me....so be it. But it IS the 'truth'. Ask Ruth.....

stubby & mark william paules,
i'm so happy to hear (read) what you've both written. hallelujah!

P.P.S. As I warned you....

....unless you laid off the ad homs, I'd start getting 'up-close and personable' too.

You didn't seem to quite catch on.....

Deja, she's not talking about women who lost their hair, she's talking about women who have plenty of hair and cut it to look like a mans. Remember,"Heres Pat" on SNL. When I was in the Navy, I met a masterchief who it took me waaaaayyy too long, (over half an hour) to determine her sex. She was about fifty, medium build and a man's navy style hair cut, ruddy complextion, couldn't tell by voice. I was really kinda confused. I didn't want to say the wrong thing and refer to her as a guy or a woman and be wrong. That would really get you off on the wrong foot. Would it really have been that bad if I would have asked, "What are you?" What my mom is talking about is someone just like that, when their head is wet in a hot tub and you just meet them, whether it is a man or a woman generally has a bearing on the conversation. If I can't tell, I won't talk to them. I don't know why anyone would want to look in the middle. But what do I know? I'm a proud dinosaur.

Chuck, you're a guest here. Act accordingly. Don't post numerous tedious posts, and don't threaten me.

You brought up Mensa in the discussion. I addressed it in the discussion.

My hair is not part of the discussion, and frankly, I doubt anyone cares what you think of it.

Regarding your complaint that you knew I was an advice columnist from coming to my site -- as if this somehow compares to insecure and pretentious people dropping how they went to Harvard into conversation when you first meet them -- or how they're in Mensa...uh, this site started to promote my column. It's a personality-driven site. So, yes, my picture and what I do and lots of details about me, and even about my little dog are front and center.

And on a more pleasant note -- thanks, Chris in Toronto...hope you'll request my column in a paper near you?

What brought you here?

Seven hours two minutes to go and one last change to disagree with Amy this year!

I think she has weird energy about fat girls.

Year after year we see these posts about masculine preference for skinny women, with bonus clucks about "chubby chasers" and coupons redeemable for an apology that ends with "But the science is indisputable!" And year after year, fat and unconventionally-shaped women seem to do no worse in their bonding than anybody else.

If Amy would cop to being a simpleminded fashion slave, this might be cool. As it is, we get the sense that she, being a kinda skinny broad, is trying steer the market in the direction of her own personal price/value sector. That's not a crime against humanity, but it doesn't have much to do with human hearts, human nature, or the shape of what the average human being is likely to be in 100 years.

Don't drink and drive. 6hrs 54 mins. I gotta niece in the future (New Zealand) who wrote an email back at me to laugh at our four-wheeled cars and dual-core computers. 2008 is gonna be GREAT, just you wait and see.
No reason t

Women folk need to reacquaint themselves, especially advice columnists, with what it means to be a man.

Regarding the "especially advice columnists": Never assume. My boyfriend's a man the way they used to make them.

"I spent a lot of years not partnering up with anybody while looking to meet a guy who had what I was looking for."

amy, are you willing to say a little more about this? ...about the decision, about being single for a long time, did you feel stigmatized while single, anything noteworthy about that time in your life...?

Stigmatized? Not at all. Then again, I tend to not look at things from the perspective people are "supposed to." I'm content being alone, and I'd rather have no boyfriend than the wrong boyfriend. Being a girl, it generally isn't too hard to get sex. And I had high standards -- especially for finding a guy who was ethical -- and I waited around till the right guy showed up. About five years ago, December 12, at the Apple computer store at the Grove.

Howdie! Found you by Instapundit. Well, let' see now:



Mensa - Check

Introvert - Check

Answers "Yes" when asked "Does this make by butt look fat?" - Check

Divorced - Check (see above)



From the conversations at the first speed date, I might have found her appealing as long as she presented her claims as an interest rather than a challenge. I would be there to find a friend, not help a stranger deal with 20 years of psychodrama.



The second conversation set made her look like a ditz, and so amusing to others -- certainly less threatening. But endlessly dull. "Is this a fork?" [giggle, giggle] To me, bleah. I'd be polite, but move on.



I've encountered something like the first conversation before. When she ramped up the intensity drifting toward self-righteousness, I had to cut her off: "I'm not your therapist," I said, "at least not until after you bought me dinner and at least two drinks."



That evening actually turned out well.

I wouldn't date her, and it's not because she thinks she's smart. That little tirade of hers makes her far more unattractive than her weight does. I thought no way long before I saw her picture, and I wouldn't have changed my mind no matter how hot she turned out to be.

The "Human Rights Lawyer" talked about herself. The "florist" asked questions.

I think that may have been the difference maker right there.

"I have yet to meet a guy who likes troweled-on makeup."

It is absolutely disgusting.

I want an ultra brainy girl and a woman with big...

Short version: A's in school D's in... Tall (above 5' 7") would be nice too.

I know you're out there. Long term romance (20 to .... years) definitely in the cards.

She's not an "insufferable bitch". She's just fallen for the typical answer to "how do empowered womyn behave?" She should be pitied. And then she should die childless and alone so evolution can work its magic.

Girls who are incredibly hot can get away with acting like asses. She is not incredibly hot.



You gotta be burlier than yer girl. me, i'd be happy just to be MATCHED by my man in terms of gusto, joy, energy, assertiveness so that i don't out-assert, frighten and intimidate my partner just by being smart and sassy, full of mischief and eager to suck the marrow out of the bones of life. someone please tell me there are men out there who don't find all of that SCARY.



Let me make this quick. Why do you need a man at all? You're better than me in every possible way and haven't even hinted in your post that you might need a man.



I need to be the complement to my woman, to be needed. If you can do everything already on your own, then all I am is a drag on your life. I don't know if other men feel like this.



I've also dated the hopeless chick that needed me to do everything for her, that's the other extreme of the spectrum and also very unappealing. I want to have children, not date them.

"Tanya, when you read of men in the Middle East burning -- or stoning or knifing -- their women in "honor killings," do you shrug it off as no biggie?"

Unfortunately Amy, that is probably exactly what she would do, and in fact probably does do whenever news of this sort of thing comes across the telly in front of her. I'm not sure if you have noticed, but feminist organizations in the United States have gone out of their way to refuse to engage, or even comment upon, the monstrous abuse of women, not just in Muslim countries, but even within Western countries if the victims happen to be members of minority or immigrant communities. Actually, it is unfair of me to single out feminists in the United States, as I believe the same to be true throughout the West.

Why this gaping blind spot? Not sure, but I can speculate. I think it has something to do with cultural and moral relativism - a belief that we in the West have no right to judge other cultures by our own standards - even when the standard in question is the most basic, minimal one possible. The irony is that in their subjective striving to be "open" and "accepting" toward other cultures, they become objectively condescending toward, and judgemental of, those cultures in the extreme - to taken to its logical extreme, this passive stance might lead to the conclusion that American feminists view Western women as deserving to be protected and non-western women not.

Then there is the phenomenon that I alluded to in a previous post on that dreadful teddy bear incident in Sudan: The profound loathing that elites in our society have for our own culture combined with their irresistable urge to genuflect before Eastern cultures. To critize the barbaric practices toward women in some other countries runs counter to these impulses, which seem to trump all other considerations.

Hey, Amy. While you're reading that Korzybski brick (excellent choice, by the way) be sure and read the A.E. Van Vogt Null-A novels along with it. And remember: The map is not the territory.

Chuck, did they teach you to threaten women at Ranger camp or is that something you learned on your own ?

relationships based on NEED are doomed. i WANT a man to be my adventure partner and playmate,among other things - someone to suck the marrow out of the bones of life with. it's really wonderful to bike, ski, climb, etc with your lover.

Thanks, Bill!

And Dennis, I've blogged about this before -- a number of times. Here's one of those entries:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2007/11/dont_get_gangra.html

Here's a comment on it from somebody from NOW:

My name is Jessica Brown. I'm the President of the Nevada chapter of NOW, and I was doing a Google search and came across this blog. I am appalled at the lack of research Ms. Alkon has done, and, as a result, the ridiculous conclusions she has reached. Does she really think that NOW members weren't horrified of the news of the gang rape in Saudi Arabia? Of course we were. And we spoke out against it.

Ms. Alkon, a simple search of the site does not constitute research. NOW has been speaking out against Muslim (Christian, etc.) fundamentalism for years.

Don't start bashing until you have the full story, folks. And the next time the Republicans puts up Christian fundamentalists as nominees to the Supreme Court, you can depend on NOW for being the only organization to send grassroots lobbyists (regular folks, not professionals), to fight hard against it. We are working our asses off.

Posted by: Jessica Brown at December 20, 2007 1:31 PM

And here's my comment in response:

Jessica, how would you suggest I find what NOW stands for if not for a simple search of the NOW site? Does one need a degree in library science? Is there a trove of hidden microfiche I didn't get the decoder ring for?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at December 20, 2007 2:10 PM

I suspect that NOW has finally heard the criticisms of people like Christina Hoff Sommers, others, and me, and is finally speaking out. NOW has enormous media dollars and support among women. If this was a big issue for them, wouldn't they have made it heard?

Chuckles, if you're threatened simply by her photo you should meet her in person. The hair is fabulous and she looks you right in the eyes when you talk.

I'm a neo-Aristotelian, fully in favor of teleology. I live in Dallas, and I can't find brains and breasts in the same body in this town. I've even searched for an intellectual escort service. I'm willing to pay for a decent conversation with a woman.

Let's have a tea and discuss Korzybski's argument.

Now, now. Just kidding! (Well, at least about that tea thing. Kinda.)

Amy, I hate to say it, but there are a LOT of bitter women like ‘Tanya’ out there who always assume the worse of men, treat them like c$%p, yet expect the men to worship the ground they walk on.

They're shooting your whole gender in the foot. I got so fed up with the abuse and listening to women I know bad mouthing other men that I quit dating for a couple of years. (Word of advice ladies: making a man listen to you rant for half an hour about all men being scum because one guy you dated in high school hurt your feelings is not going to get you a second date.) If I hadn't met my current girlfriend, who actually treats me like a human being with feelings, I'd probably still not be dating and perfectly happy about it.

On the bright side for women, it's making those of you who actually treat men the way you want men to treat you a hot co