Some Hotels Allow Dogs, Some Hotels Allow Women
Just like some hotels in the U.S.A. are beginning to allow dogs, welcome to Saudi Arabia where progress is allowing lone women to stay in hotels by themselves -- providing they send word to the police first. From an AP story:
Women in Saudi Arabia can now stay in a hotel or a furnished apartment without a male guardian, according to a government decision that comes as the country faces increasing criticism for its severe restrictions on women.The daily Al-Watan, which is deemed close to the Saudi government, reported Monday that the ministry issued a circular to hotels asking them to accept lone women — as long as their information is sent to a local police station.
The decision was adopted after a study conducted by the Interior Ministry, the Supreme Commission of Tourism and the religious police authority known as the Commission for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.
Saudi women, under strict Islamic law, suffer severe restrictions on daily life: They are not allowed to be anywhere with an unrelated man, cannot drive, appear before a judge without a male representative, or travel abroad without a male guardian's permission.
This can be tough for Saudi women like Fatima al-Timani, forcibly divorced from her husband by her family. From another AP story:
Fatima said her husband, a hospital administrator, followed Saudi tradition in asking her father for permission to marry her in 2003."My brother reported good things about him, so my dad accepted his proposal," said Fatima, a computer specialist who was 29 when she married.
She said her father knew that Mansour came from a less prominent tribe than hers, but that he didn't mind because he "cared about the man himself."
A few months after the wedding, several of Fatima's relatives, including a half brother, persuaded her father to give them power of attorney to file a lawsuit demanding an annulment, she said.
Then her father died, and Fatima said she'd hoped the case would be dropped.
But on Feb. 25, 2006, police knocked on the couple's door to serve Mansour with divorce papers — which said his marriage had been annulled nine months earlier.
"We were shattered. How did this happen? Why?" Fatima asked.
Saudi lawyer Abdul-Rahman al-Lahem, who used to represent the couple, said local interpretations of Islamic law hold that relatives of a married couple have the right to seek an annulment if they feel the marriage lowers the extended family's status.
He said authorities are reluctant to overrule such annulment orders, believing they are private matters within extended families.
Fatima took the couple's 2-year-old daughter and 4-month-old son to live with her mother, who had persuaded her to let Mansour deal with the legal issues on his own.
But after three months without her husband, Fatima and the children sneaked out of her mother's house and flew with Mansour to the western seaside city of Jiddah, where they sought to live in anonymity.
Saudi police soon discovered them and imprisoned the family for living together illegally.
"The police told me I either return to my (mother's) family or go to jail," Fatima said. "I chose jail."
"My children and I were thrown in a cell with women sentenced for pushing drugs, practicing witchcraft and behaving immorally," Fatima said. Authorities allowed her to send her daughter back to live with her father, but the infant stayed with Fatima in jail.
"He learned to speak in jail, he learned to walk in jail and his teeth came out in jail," she said.
Every time I read things like this, I get furious. Wait for it. Some no-talent ass-clown will try to tell us that this is really 'freedom' and that this woman is being 'protected.'
And Muslims have the gall to come here, fret over our 'oppressive' society, and demand changes? Screw them.
Jeff at January 22, 2008 12:53 AM
Just think, if oil wasn't useful, this society would have wiped itself out 50 years ago.
brian at January 22, 2008 4:30 AM
Yes, funny how the Bushies were so keen to "liberate" Iraq while their good mates in Saudi Arabia continue to keep people in slavery and export terrorism. If only there was someone running for the presidency that offered any hope of a change in that situation. You don't need to look any further than the primitive, bullying nature of Arab tribalism to see why Islam is such a fucked ideology.
GMan at January 22, 2008 4:43 AM
This is BS but at the end of the day you're not going to win a revolution overnight. Hopefully little stuff can keep changing and add up.
"My children and I were thrown in a cell with women sentenced for pushing drugs, practicing witchcraft and behaving immorally,"
I find this statement amusing because it's an awful explanation. Sadly in her society what she's doing is immoral and she's judging these other women for being immoral. I have a feeling a lot of them shouldn't be in prison
scott at January 22, 2008 6:15 AM
I certainly don't agree with the oppression of women in many of these societies, however I don't agree with hating an entire society or thinking that they "would have wiped themselves out 50 years ago"...it's a much more complicated issue. I look at these societies and I think that they simply have not developed as quickly as western society. Almost everything you read about the treatment of women in Arab countries you can find in our own history. Now - this is not to condone the treatment of women in these countries but I really believe that hating and trying to force Western beliefs on other countries will only make the problem worse. Revolution will happen at it's own pace (as it did here), and we need to be understanding of that and ready to intervene when the time is right. If you try to force change on an entire culture you will only succeed in making them want to preserve it!!
Jean at January 22, 2008 7:21 AM
Shudder. Just the image of family being able to divorce you from your husband. While that could be useful if your daughter (why do I doubt this happens to sons) is being beaten or something and refuses to leave his sorry butt, it is far too controlling. Frankly, even in that case scenario, she has to find the courage to leave. It's one thing to convince, another thing to force.
I think we've got to stop being so PC about this and call it as we see it. But, of course, as long as they've got the oil, it won't happen.
Donna at January 22, 2008 7:53 AM
Jean, I have to respectfully disagree with you. You sound like one of those mothers with a rotten bastard of a kid who keeps thinking that 'If I just give him his way and don't damage his self esteem,he will grow into a mature civil adult." Spank his god damned ass and tell him his behaviour is not acceptable and will be punished. Nobody lives in the world today by themselves. The Saudi's do to some extent in their country because so few people would ever go to visit such a lunatic asylum out of justifialbe fear. But that blocks them off to the norms of the outside world, which they are trying to change to meet their standards, "Islamic Law".
>>>Almost everything you read about the treatment of women in Arab countries you can find in our own history
There is some truth to this comment, but it IS in our history, and most everyone elses.
>>>but I really believe that hating and trying to force Western beliefs on other countries will only make the problem worse.
Jean, is it ok to 'hate' barbarism and intolerance or do you think that these atrocities don't really rise to that level? Because honorable civil people do not condone treating women and 'infidels' like dogs, then we are wrong because we 'hate'? I think you have the 'hate' shoe on the wrong foot. Is it really a 'western belief' that these abhorrant practices are wrong and should not be allowed anywhere?
Jean, what you're doing is abdicating from passing judgement. I don't know or care why, but you seem to think that we don't have a right to pass judgement on someone else's actions because we are all not perfect. Well, we may not be perfect, but if we didn't try and change the world for the better, then we are all reduced to the lowest common denominator, which is the cult of islam.
Bikerken at January 22, 2008 12:29 PM
Making a comment because, for whatever reason, it mortifies me when someone who happens to have the same name as I do posts on a place I've posted before (not on this article [well, until now]) with a completely different view than I have. I wonder if that's an ego thing or... something...
Related to the topic at hand: How awful that a couple that apparently had no quarrel with one another and wanted to live together could be torn apart by one family. I wonder how the husband's family felt about the situation, though I guess (according to that society) their opinion wouldn't matter. Even though there are several situations in which I wish you could force a couple apart, I think I would much rather leave it up to the individuals at hand than let families decide a couple's fate (because, let's face it, some families would split up couples for completely arbitrary reasons here, too).
As for the "progress" relating to hotel stays-- facade. Total facade. They're still being kept tabs on no matter where they go. What "progress" is that? If it's something being celebrated, then, boy, people sure don't have any idea of what 'real' progress is.
Jean Moczy at January 22, 2008 1:48 PM
Yes, funny how the Bushies were so keen to "liberate" Iraq while their good mates in Saudi Arabia continue to keep people in slavery and export terrorism. If only there was someone running for the presidency that offered any hope of a change in that situation.
As long as Saudi Arabia is the #1 most-important country in the world as far as oil as concerned, and as long as oil continues to be the most important fuel source for the world, you won't find a major party candidate like that. (Yes, I know that they're not the #1 source of oil for the U.S., but the U.S. isn't the entire world.)
Almost everything you read about the treatment of women in Arab countries you can find in our own history.
Honor killings? Being forbidden to drive vehicles? Being beaten by religious police for wearing too-short skirts or for eschewing abayas? Divorces forced on legal adults in marriages of long standing with multiple children? I missed those in our history. Also, we have slavery in our history, but I don't refuse to condemn societies that practice slavery in 2008. Saudi Arabia is an extremely wealthy country that is extremely oppressive in a wide variety of forms. Yes, I criticize it, and I'm going to KEEP criticizing it until it experiences some real changes. You know, such as allowing women to decide for themselves to whom they want to be married. And since when did believing in the rights of women become a "Western value"? I see it as a universal human value. Just because it's not practiced universally doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
marion at January 22, 2008 11:06 PM
Amen Marion!
Bikerken at January 23, 2008 1:52 AM
Actually Bikerken, I am an educated woman with no children, let alone a "rotten bastard" of a child. Having studied as much as I have, I have come to the conclusion that the entire human race is capable of being horrible in the name of their beliefs. If you were born in the days of the Puritans, chances are you would have been a witch hunter! If you were born in Nazi Germany, you would have likely hated the Jews with the same passion as most everyone else! If you were born in the South a hundred years ago you likely would have participated in lynchings! The list goes on and to be quite honest, if the majority of your peers started condoning the use of violence against Muslims (or whatever group happens not to be in favor) and consequences of said violence were null you would also likely be out there murdering and beating people for your beliefs..or at the very least offering the club to another person to carry out the beating. It's in you, me and everyone on this board. As you can see - I don't have a high opinion of human beings in general, regardless of their race, religion or country.
All that being said - I neither condone nor like the practices in Arab countries. Unlike marion, I recognize that complaining and whining about it will not change a thing. Revolution is bound to happen, but from within Islam. And it will happen slowly, as it did here in the West. What we need to do is provide the tools to help the revolution, but only when their culture is ready for it. Think of it like your friend who is in an abusive relationship...you can't FORCE her out of it. You can only wait and be supportive and when she is ready to get out, you can mobilize.
Jean at January 23, 2008 8:11 AM
That's all well and fine, Jean, if their disease wasn't killing me. They definitely are not keeping it to themself. The point of this thread is that it is spilling into other societies. To use your own analogy, I can't do anything if a girlfriend refuses to leave a husband who is battering her but if he hits me, I'm sure as hell gonna 1) hit back, probably aiming at the male of the species most vulnerable point physically speaking and 2) call the Goddamn cops and have his sorry ass put away even if it pisses my girlfriend off.
Donna at January 23, 2008 9:31 AM
Their disease is killing you?? What symptoms do you suffer from Donna?? You are much more likely to be a victim of violent crime commited by a non-muslim than by a terrorist. Your children are more likely to be violated by a home-grown good old American psychopath than by a muslim. You let the media fear-mongers try and tell you that your life is in danger but it's not as fearsome as you would think. I teach a psychology of self defence course and believe me - one class with me and you would be scared to leave you house!! And not because there are terrorists out there!! Propaganda in Nazi Germany had everyone believing that the Jews were the scourge of their civilization...that all of Germanys woes could be blamed on them. Why, an article in this very blog site has said the the Bush administration has told 900 some-odd lies to the American public about the terrorist threat in the US. That's a lot of lies!! Think maybe the "evil doers" aren't the only ones with a propaganda machine???
When I read some of the comments here I'll tell you what really scares me...I see an entire people (and anyone who has a differing opinion) being demonized. If some people from this board were in charge we would have the 50's back in place...where accused "communists" are sanctioned, black listed and tossed in jail. And I would be tossed in for being a sympathizer..just because I disagree with you.
Jean at January 23, 2008 10:21 AM
"That's all well and fine, Jean, if their disease wasn't killing me. They definitely are not keeping it to themself. The point of this thread is that
it is spilling into other societies."
How so? Most of Muslims are getting killed in their own back yard by the invading foreigners. It appears to me that they are the victims, who have no other options except terrorism to get their message crossed.
Can you name one non European country, which prospered by practicing Western style democracy?
Chang at January 23, 2008 3:47 PM
Jean, I’m just a little confused as to what you are speaking out against. The original story on this thread was about the oppressive practices of Islam. Islam has practices associated with it that are downright murderous. All we are saying is that civilized people of the world need to speak out against it. And you come along and tell us we’re just like the Nazi’s because we are speaking out against oppression???? Go pedal that garbage somewhere else. The only people who advocate killing muslim women and children are usually muslim men. That is what is really wrong.
Bikerken at January 23, 2008 4:59 PM
Jean, I live in NY, upstate not the City but I'm sure you get my point about what hit too damned close to home... Like fuck, their disease ain't killing me. I didn't lose anyone I know personally, lucky me, but a good percentage of the people around me did. And with all the violent crime in NYC, I've never known this many people affected by it.
Jean at January 24, 2008 7:55 AM
Bikerken...I don't really see a lot of intelligent "speaking out against oppression" comments here. What I read is a lot of anger and hostility against an entire group of people, without taking into account the diversity of beliefs within said group. I am simply warning people of the path this sort of thinking tends to go.
Some of these comments I am speaking of:
"Screw them"
"this society would have wiped itself out 50 years ago." (opinion based on no study of historical sociology)
"the primitive, bullying nature of Arab tribalism to see why Islam is such a fucked ideology"
"You sound like one of those mothers with a rotten bastard of a kid" ouch...pretty nasty based on knowing nothing about a person, except that they have disagreed with you.
"Spank his god damned ass and tell him his behaviour is not acceptable and will be punished" also considered child abuse in most places
"their disease wasn't killing me" Jews were also called vermin in Germany.
"civilized people of the world " my point being is that we aren't necessarily all that civilized anyways
"Go pedal that garbage somewhere else" Thanks for making my previous point for me. Civilized people listen and think with a logical mind and keep their emotions at bay and name calling should be done by children, not adults.
Jean at January 24, 2008 7:58 AM
For the other Jean in upstate NY: Granted - 9/11 was huge. I do not take that away from you and those around you. I do have to point out that there are many things closer to home to be afraid of than terrorists. For example, in 2005 there were 16,885 fatalities due to drunk drivers (from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration). That makes one death every 31 minutes. That death toll includes children who were riding their bikes and playing when a drunk driver plowed into them and smashed their bodies until they were dead. Now when your children are out there playing and you can't see them, ask yourself is more likely to kill them?
Jean at January 24, 2008 12:30 PM
Jean, you're hopeless, but our society allows you to have your opinion and nobody is going to beat you with a cane, or put you in jail or saw your head off with a dull machete, as it should be. You keep talking about fear, we are not going to be goaded into fear, we are disgusted with the actions of these people and we are brave enough to speak out about it. You are perfectly free and safe to dispute or criticize anything you want. But you don't even seem to acknowledge that if you were in Saudi Arabia and were to say anything against islam, they would kill you like we would swat a fly. But you don't speak out about that? Your moral relatvism is way over the top, but you're free to say what you will, maybe you should start to appreciate that freedom a little more.
One of the weaknesses in American society is that we have grown up so totally free that we don't know what oppression is really like, so we tend to minimize it and only see what we have been taught in the US to be wrong as the worst behaviour in the world. There is a failure of realizing scale here. Everytime I see someone making comments like that, I know that they have never had any of the experiences like I have like when I saw the Sultan Of Omans daughter burned at the Stake in Oman. Her crime, 'she was caught in a locked room, with a man not of her family, fully dressed mind you.' There really is right and wrong Jean. There is good and evil. You really should take a little trip to a muslim country for a while. But remember, be sure to have a man of your family's permission and check in with the police when you get to your hotel.
One more thing, you seem to have some real upside down ideas about right and wrong, bravery and fear, good and evil, you're not islamic by chance? Are you?
Bikerken at January 24, 2008 11:48 PM
16,885 over the whole country vs. 6,000 in one city and you think it's the same percentage. I give up.
Donna at January 25, 2008 7:25 AM
Ok Bikerken - you totally missed my original point. My original point is that if any of us were born in Saudi Arabia, we would most likely BE DOING THE OPRESSING!! I would very much like to hear that YOU are Muslim, Bikerken. A Muslim, woman born and raised in the Middle East. Then and only then do your words and opinions signify a change coming.
And Bikerken...you use your very own yardstick for measuring "right and wrong", "bravery and fear". You are not all knowing, or perfect by any means. You just think you are because you are stuck in your own image of self-rightousness. Because the concept of right and wrong fluctuates and evolves in societies. What was deemed "evil" in America 50 years ago is now changing and evolving. Just look at any woman who is divorced now - it is acceptable. My grandmother was divorced in the 1940s and she was called a whore and married men propositioned her, thinking that she was easy. So - 50 years ago it was "evil" to be divorced, but now it's not. So...was our society wrong back then, or are they wrong now? What yardstick of morality are we measuring by? What about abortion? Whose "morality" is right?? There are differing views on it...so which yardstick do we measure the morality by? Pro-Life or pro-choice? Now don't get me wrong - I am not comparing any of these issues with the current topic - I am simply saying that we can't toss words like "evil" and "wrong" around when the definitions of each are completely arbitrary. There is no final definition of evil, because everyone thinks that they are good and just. All of my arguments are about this - let's not sit in pious judgement. There are more proactive things that can be done...but unfortunately it can only be done when the winds of revolution start coming from within Islam. And they are, you know. We don't hear about it on the new because it's not sensational or exciting - it's slow to come but it will.
And Donna - so you wouldn't mind terrorism as long as it's more people being killed over a larger territory? Drunk driving isn't so bad because it doesn't look as scary on TV?? Um. Ok. That's...rational. You go girl!
Jean at January 25, 2008 11:20 AM
"Everytime I see someone making comments like that, I know that they have never had any of the experiences like I have like when I saw the Sultan Of Omans daughter burned at the Stake in Oman. Her crime, 'she was caught in a locked room, with a man not of her family, fully dressed mind you.' There really is right and wrong Jean. There is good and evil."
When the Virginia Tech massacre happened last year, there was an outcry throughout the world denouncing the lack of gun control discipline in the U.S. A lot of the victims were from the foreign countries and they rightfully so complained of our relaxed gun policy. Have you seen any Chinese soldiers lately in Washington D.C. to make sure our gun policy is changed, so it is par with international standard?
Each nation has its own way of maintaining law and order to preserve what they think it is important. The Muslims are determined to kick the meddling foreigners out of their countries. Also, they want to stay away from drug, porn, pork, alcohol and rock and roll.
Here, in U.S., you do not go to jail even though you committed the crime if you can afford a good lawyer. If you get a public defender, your chance of going to jail is higher even though you did not commit the crime. Some people might think that that is very inhumane as the justice is determined by how much money you have.
Don't be too arrogant.
Chang at January 25, 2008 2:55 PM
Chang, you are talking about the actions of one lone wacko. He was not a billion and a half people strong worldwide cult. I think there is a big difference. Get a grip.
Bikerken at January 25, 2008 6:04 PM
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