A Black "DC Fem" Speaks
I think that means "Washington, D.C. Feminist," but that's just a guess. Here's her comment on my blog item about Obama throwing his granny under the campaign bus:
Why is it always OK for older white people to be racist? This notion that Obama threw his grandmother under the bus by mentioning her in a speech about race in America is ridiculous. He brought up her racism to remind us that we all harbor some resentments and that some people (like his grandmother) are able to transcend those and wholeheartedly embrace people who don't look just like them.People continue to accuse him of maligning Granny and Geraldine Ferraro keeps insisting that she is the real victim here and everyone sympathizes and feels sorry for them. But this loud mouthed pastor said some truly prejudiced things and people are acting like he's Hitler. Why is there never any slack cut for old black people? These are the folks who lived through Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement. Sometimes they shoot off their mouths and say things that are truly ignorant and divisive. In the black community, we tolerate their tirades because of the systematic racism they endured in their lives. And we realize that the time has come to rethink that tolerance.
That, to me, was the point of Obama's speech. That there is plenty of blame to go around but we need to move past that. Those of us in the black community need to stop letting our elders say whatever they want to and apologizing for it because of their unfortunate life experiences. And white Americans need to come to the table with the realization of white privilege in America and the willingness to listen (really listen) to what's going in the black community. Maybe then we will finally end the two America's and just have one the way it should have been all along.
No, the government did not create AIDS to kill black people -- that's ignorant and ridiculous. But they did infect black men with Syphilis to study it's effect on human beings. Anyone who doesn't believe that can look through Bill Clinton's records to see the day where apologized on behalf of the government for that despicable act. So unfortunately, because of the true experiences of one group of people, you can manipulate a few gullible members of our society into believing that even worse things have occurred. The way Republicans have manipulated so many into thinking that unregulated free market economy is the greatest thing in human history. Now that your house is in foreclosure, do you still believe that?
Posted by: DC Fem at March 21, 2008 7:29 AM
Here's my reply:
There's are so many distortions in what you wrote above, I don't know where to begin. Also, I haven't had coffee yet, so I'll just take on a few:Was she even racist? Or did that idea suit Obama's needs vis a vis his need to slink out of the Wright controversy. I've blogged before about his, uh, memory issues, vis a vis his "forgetting" that his sister got off a Greyhound bus from Africa and didn't come off a plane.
I was talking to my boyfriend last night about the idiotic idea that it's racist to avoid some questionable character on the street. I live in a neighborhood where there are some, let's say, ruffians. If I see a young, thuggish looking guy in a hoodie coming down the sidewalk toward me, black, latino, or white, I'm going to feel a little scared, and I'll walk in the street like I'm going to get my car. Furthermore, black men are in prison disproportionate to their number in the population. Jewish people have also had a tough time throughout history. The prison isn't filled with guys named Moishe, Max, and Schmuel. Tell me that you're about to cross paths with a young, thuggish looking black guy on the streets there in DC and you just walk past him like it's an old lady carrying a bouquet of lilies home. (Or a young thuggish looking guy of any race.) It's prudent, as a woman, to be street smart and to be "better safe than sorry."
Furthermore, Jews, throughout history, have plenty more than blacks to complain about, and while some do have a persecution complex, they aren't sitting around saying "The Holocaust is the reason we can't make it in the world." And neither, frankly, are my friends who are black and who are achieving things.
Furthermore, I don't see people high-fiving Geraldine Ferraro. She's been pretty roundly criticized.
I don't think racism by anybody is nice. I experienced anti-Semitism as a kid -- kids chasing me around, calling me dirty Jew, etc. And then I went to college at the University of Michigan, where I was thrilled to be in an environment where not everybody was white, like where I grew up, and I sat down at the end of a lunch table of black girls one of my first days in Alice Lloyd dorm, and they looked at me like I just squatted and left a turd in the middle of the floor of the lunch room.
What Obama did, if his granny was even "racist," was wrong because you don't reveal private people's private conversations or actions publicly. Note that there are no photos of my boyfriend on my blog, and if I refer to him, I just call him "Gregg." I am a public person, and he is not. While it's not a secret who he is, and it's pretty easy for anyone who reads here to figure out his last name and read about him, I didn't need him to even ask me before I decided that I would not "take him public" in his association with me by posting photos of him.
The point of Obama's speech is the point of every speech by each of these three sleazebags who are running: To get elected.
PS What are you actually DOING to change things besides leaving blog comments? I see lots of wind from people like Wright, but how about starting a program like I have. I go talk to kids at inner city schools to demystify making it. My next talk is next week (although we're waiting to hear back from a teacher on Spring break so it may shift), and I'll be there after that on April 16th, and I'm starting to bring in other speakers, too. My goal is to do one talk a month, although I got sick in January, and that screwed things up a bit.
Oh, and I'm whiter than a sheet of typing paper, see above, but Jesse Owens came and talked to my elementary school class, and I was very influenced by a woman my mother knew, and decided that kids in inner city schools would be helped by positive role models who show the step by step process of doing something cool and meaningful with your life.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 8:19 AM
And then another reply from me with the bit I forgot:
Forgot this bit. Corrections to your quote follow:The way Republicans have manipulated so many into thinking that unregulated free market economy is the greatest thing in human history. Now that your house is in foreclosure, do you still believe that?
1. We don't have an unregulated free market, but if we did operate in a more capitalistic way we'd probably be doing much better (George Bush is the biggest big Democrat we've had in office in a long time, starting with that prescription drug bill he signed that will break us all...and handouts for Bear Stearns are the antithesis of free market capitalism).
2. My house isn't in foreclosure because I was taught by my dad never to sign anything without reading and understanding it first. If you can't understand it, you get somebody who can understand it (a lawyer) to read it and explain it to you until you can.
I don't own a home because, much like all those people who took out those insane loans, I can't afford one (at least, not in the community I want to live in). I'm what's called a Personal Responsibilitarian, a term I made up. I'm also a fiscal conservative. Don't spend money I don't have, and all that. Shocking concept, I know. And if I do buy something, I buy in bulk from Costco, if possible, and I buy my clothes and jewelry slightly used on eBay, on the 75% off rack at the designer resale store, or on clearance in January and August at Loehmann's. I use my credit card like a debit card, and pay it in full every month. And I bought my first new car ever, which I paid off at a rate of about 30% over the rate I was supposed to pay on my loan, to build my already excellent credit. If do someday buy a house, the loan officers will be chasing me down the street and begging to me to go with them.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 8:28 AM
Oh, and I'll pile on a comment from Crid, who got it exactly right, and in about one-tenth the number of words:
DC Fem, follow the fucking links.Amy's item ("Obama Rats Out His Racist Granny") is deceptively titled: OBAMA'S GRANDMOTHER WASN'T A RACIST, and the (revised) anecdote by which he implies that she is horribly twists the facts.
*That's* what you need to know about this guy. That's how horny he is for the White House. Maybe American voters need this extremely weird racial psychodrama in their lives... I personally don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong. Nonetheless the fact that he's willing to pander this way doesn't make him more admirable.
Quite the opposite. He's not into the truth, and he's not into his own loving flesh and blood.
Note to Gregg: send flowers, say as little as possible the next few days, act naturally.
eric at March 21, 2008 9:17 AM
eric, we get the feeling that Gregg's too laconic to act natural.... Like, how would you know?
Listen, Condi Rice is having a bad morning. Twenty minutes after she apologizes for the intrusion into Obama's records, it's reported that Hillary and McCain's records were violated as well. So this story is about to fall out of people's conscioness.
Let's all make and extra-special effort to remember that this speech, which most will recall as rhetorical highpoint, included an inexcusable deception about someone he's said to love very much.
Crid at March 21, 2008 9:24 AM
deception about someone he's said to love very much
Well, he iz a politician, no? Remember, "the insurgency is in it's last throes" or "Mission accomplished" or "I never had sex w/ that woman".
The Mad Hungarian at March 21, 2008 9:40 AM
Has anyone asked grandma how she feels about this? It seems that everyone is rushing to defend the honor of someone who may not mind being used as an example to further the cause of her grandson (who she probably loves very much).
Jen at March 21, 2008 9:44 AM
Precisely Jen!
(Fair disclosure: My grandfather, a wonderful man whom I loved and admired, had never met a black person in his life he liked. He was not ashamed of this, and would freely admit to it. But that was a long time ago... and yes, he is long ago deceased.)
eric at March 21, 2008 10:06 AM
"Has anyone asked grandma how she feels about this? It seems that everyone is rushing to defend the honor of someone who may not mind being used as an example to further the cause of her grandson (who she probably loves very much)."
Of course not, because then everyone might not be able to get all indignant and might actually have to address the other points made in the speech.
sam at March 21, 2008 10:08 AM
In what way would this woman's feelings be relevant?
Crid at March 21, 2008 10:08 AM
Maybe Barack went to Grandma and said "Grandma, remember how you used to refer to my Daddy? Can I use that? Thanks Grandma, you're the best!"
But we would still have to lick our wounds about the bus terminal scandal.
eric at March 21, 2008 10:17 AM
Amy's point seems to be that "public" people shouldn't talk about what the "private" people in their lives do/say. If she doesn't care if he talks about her, then using that anecdote seems appropriate.
Jen at March 21, 2008 10:18 AM
The point is that the next President will inherit Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, China, a new Cuba, Darfur, the economy, social security, energy policy, medicare, and a whole host of things that will pop up, so who the hell cares about a few trivial events that speak nothing at all about his wisdom or character? If we get caught up in these distractions, or ludicrous topics like slave reparations, we will be stuck with the same old status quo.
eric at March 21, 2008 10:31 AM
"who the hell cares about a few trivial events that speak nothing at all about his wisdom or character?If we get caught up in these distractions, or ludicrous topics like slave reparations, we will be stuck with the same old status quo."
I agree. I think what the current nitpicking means (And not just here; I mean in the media at large as well) is that this primary season has gone on too long. With a month to go before Pennsylvania, the pundits have nothing headline-grabbing to talk about so they start in on this stuff.
Jen at March 21, 2008 10:39 AM
> events that speak nothing at
> all about his wisdom or
> character?
I await evidence of each.
Crid at March 21, 2008 10:42 AM
And when you're commenting on a blog that's linking about a bunch of other blogs, it's a little silly to infer manipulation by media elites. We think the world and all of Alkon, but hers is apparently is a kitchen-table operation composed first to give dating advice. Who are you calling a "pundit"?
Crid at March 21, 2008 10:46 AM
Has anyone asked grandma how she feels about this? It seems that everyone is rushing to defend the honor of someone who may not mind being used as an example to further the cause of her grandson (who she probably loves very much).
Sorry, but what woman wants to be publicly identified as a racist? (Except maybe one who's married to a guy who runs around in a pointy white hat.)
I just love the justifications people are coming up with.
Face it, he threw granny under the bus to save his political skin.
In a word: Ick.
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 10:47 AM
eric and jen -
Is there anything in any speech or policy position that Obama has presented that give you any reason to believe that he's going to do anything productive or positive?
Or do you just "feel" that he's the best choice?
If Obama is just another race pimp, I think that is relevant. We don't need a president that is dedicated to getting revenge on a large portion of the population of the United States.
brian at March 21, 2008 10:47 AM
Just as men often don't tell women what they really think, white people often don't tell non-white people what they really think.
If black people want to move forward, it's all up to them. White people have done all that can be done. It is not possible to redress the harms done to people in the past. It is unjust to punish people today for things done by other people in the past.
White people are growing less willing to shoulder the blame for the failures of black people. African blacks prosper in the US; native black don't. It's obvious that something besides white racism holds back the black community.
Black people must give up their anger and move on.
Jeff at March 21, 2008 11:01 AM
From what I read of Obama, I find him inexperienced, lucky to be where he is (legislation pushed through as if it were his as a "kingmaking" move), and showing bad character under fire, and even when not under fire (how do you belong to a church where the guy spews all sorts of racist and anti-American crap, and by that I don't mean mere criticism of American policy?).
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 11:06 AM
Brian, I never said that I have any evidence or "feel" he is the best choice. Frankly, my mind is still open at this point. I don't think he's the only one getting picked at either, but that is the particular topic of discussion on this thread.
And Amy, I don't think he went and asked his grandma if he could call her a racist in public, but his book has been out for a decade; according to him, his family read drafts while he was writing it. Referring to her in passing in a speech seems less likely to be offensive to her than being discussed extensively in a book. But here I am inferring things about a woman I don't know. I'll shut up now.
Jen at March 21, 2008 11:09 AM
Racists are usually pretty up front with their beliefs, and are happy to justify them. And to be clear, this is what Obama said:
I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.
That's hardly throwing her under a train.
Brian- When you started comparing Obama to Stalin or Marx of Pol Pot or whomever, I don't take you in any way seriously.
eric at March 21, 2008 11:12 AM
He apparently told this story differently in the book. A commenter here says:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987984/posts?page=37;q=1
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 11:19 AM
And come on, a little common sense here. What grandmother, with a half-black grandson, spouts off about fearing black men in front of the kid...even if she does fear black men?
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2008 11:21 AM
eric: Brian- When you started comparing Obama to Stalin or Marx of Pol Pot or whomever, I don't take you in any way seriously.
It's obvious that reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. It was Trotsky to whom I compared Obama. You are deluding yourself if you think that an accurate comparison to a leader of collectivist thought is unserious. Prove that the comparison is inoperative or shut your pie-hole.
You can ignore me. I prefer that marginal thinkers not hurt their brains anyhow.
brian at March 21, 2008 11:23 AM
I've read about half the book, which includes that anecdote. That's the basics of the story, yes. But everything in the book is discussed in the context of race. She may not have told him at the time that she was scared because the man was black, but when he was an adult and writing the book she (presumably) allowed the story to be told in a way that strongly implied that race was a factor in her fear. The book doesn't stop there in the discussion of his grandparents and race; for example, he talks about how they felt about their daughter marrying a black man (not happy about it at first but ultimately accepting).
And are we sure that the speech refers to the bus story or could it have referred to another (undocumented) incident?
Jen at March 21, 2008 11:39 AM
>> And come on, a little common sense here. What grandmother, with a half-black grandson, spouts off about fearing black men in front of the kid...even if she does fear black men?
A human one? A disappointed one? What kind of question is that?
Brian- OK, I'll bite. In what way is Obama just like Trotsky? Nationalizing the trade unions? Spreading workers rights through the use of military power to Canada and Mexico?
eric at March 21, 2008 11:51 AM
> a woman who once confessed
> her fear of black men who passed
> by her on the street,
She didn't.
Crid at March 21, 2008 12:00 PM
Well, I'd say that nationalizing the health care industry (and regardless of what he says, that's what his and Hillary's plan ultimately leads to) is a good start. His play towards effectively eliminating the southern border is another. Trotsky wasn't big on nationalism or sovereignty, if memory serves.
The primary difference between Stalin and Trotsky was that Stalin believed the capitalism was a stopping-point on the way to communism, and that it would necessarily destroy itself (although he was not against giving it subtle ideological pushes). Trotsky felt that it needed to be fought directly (hence "permanent revolution").
Obama isn't quite so overt or violent as Trotsky. He believes that he can talk everyone to death. And his so-called "progressive" ideals are certainly post-capitalist. He uses the same phraseology as other communists when he talks about taxing the rich.
And I didn't say he was "just like" Trotsky. The exact quote was:
Again, reading comprehension.
brian at March 21, 2008 12:31 PM
Let's all please take another moment to review the Jamie's link and comment from the other day. Maybe you still think everything's OK, because these drastic times require drastic storytelling or whatever.
But here's a little tale for the entire extended Crid families, including travellers new to our clan by birth and marriage----
If --in pursuit of any achievement-- you misrepresent me in the Obama family manner, I'll take the following steps.
(1.) I will publicly denounce your assertions in all media and channels, be they electronic, print or verbal. To the best of my ability I'll prove to everyone within the reach of my communication that you've suffered a failure of integrity presumably sufficient to disqualify you from the goal you sought to ensure by your deceptive rhetoric. At the very least, your audience will know you've got a wackjob family member who makes Billy Carter look like a friendless wallflower.
(2.) At the next family gathering (or appropriate public context, never in private), I will get all up in your face and be shouty and intrusive and say that you must never ever pull any of that shit again or I will go goddamn Travis Bickle on your ass. Then I'll kiss the side of your forehead. Then I point an index finger three inches from the bridge of your nose, and say "And I fucking well mean it."
Crid at March 21, 2008 12:40 PM
Taxing the rich is hardly a Trotsky specific concept, unless you would include Warren Buffet at the Trotsky table. Mr Buffet, a somewhat well known capitalist, favors increasing the tax rates for the wealthy. He also favors the estate tax as a check on wealth accumulation that he feels can be a threat to democratic priciples. Bill Gates is also on board with these concepts, and he isn't advocating forced collectivization, so maybe there are nuanaces outside the realm of scary old Communist revolutionaries.
The souther border has been a problem since there has been a southern border. All those Latin Americans didn't just slip in under Clinton's watch. How does Obama's stated plan of enforcing our borders with additional personel and technology differ greatly from the Republican alternative?
And we are in a de-facto nationalized health care system already. Medicare exists. Veterans Affairs exists. Drug coverage exists. Indigent people receive medical care at taxpayers expense. The question is how can these costs be effectively managed, and how can we begin to cap the cost increases that have grown 4 times faster than wages. No candidate, short of Nader, is suggesting we adopt a European style nationalized Health Care System
eric at March 21, 2008 1:19 PM
"But they did infect black men with Syphilis to study it's effect on human beings."
untrue. The men were left untreated for the syphilis they had contracted on their own. They were the control group. The researchers did NOT cause their infections.
The truth is bad enough. No reason to exaggerate it.
winston at March 21, 2008 1:21 PM
I have to believe that DC Fem gets the inconsistency in Obama's story about his grandmother. I feel quite sure she knows it lacks veracity. But in an attempt to mitigate the duplicity of Obama's rhetoric and the militancy of Wright's theology, she offers this,
In truth, we do cut them slack. But never, never, never must we "cut slack" for racist ideas.
It's not OK for black people to be racist. It's not OK for black people to call for mass confiscation of the assets of white people. It's not OK for black people to beat up white people just because they are angry about the past. This shit is not OK. We shouldn't cut slack for it.
Obama lied about his white grandmother. He goes to a radical, anti-white, racist, black-nationalist church. It appears Obama doesn't like white people very much. Why should I cut him slack for that? I shouldn't.
Jeff at March 21, 2008 1:29 PM
Love love this blog. I never wouldda thought anything of the granny comment until now.
PurplePen at March 21, 2008 1:52 PM
What Warren Buffet "feels" is irrelevant. And if Gates believed so much in wealth confiscation upon death, he wouldn't have committed to getting rid of most of his money before he croaks. He may be against wealth accumulation in principle, but that's a far cry from the coerced redistribution of wealth that Buffet (and now Ben Stein) advocate. And what we have in this country is not taxing the "rich", but the "highly compensated". There's a difference. Taxing the "rich" would bankrupt Paris Hilton and leave most of the working class the hell alone. Instead, those who work hard are punished while those who inherit their wealth are sheltered. Consumption taxes are the way to go.
Obama's certainly not in favor of border enforcement - he supported the Amnesty bill. Of course, maybe your definition of "serious" and mine differ. I favor kicking all illegals out by any means that is logistically feasible and actually CONTROLLING the border. Of course, that's not going to buy me the votes of the illegals, but I don't really care much about that.
Just because we're in a de facto pseudo-nationalized healthcare system doesn't mean we ought to go whole hog. The proper response is to completely dismantle it because it is a comprehensive failure.
Ask a vet about the care he gets from the VA. Ask doctors how much they like dealing with Medicare.
There are certain groups of people who should be getting their health care paid for by the government, among them veterans and those who were promised such care in their old age. But the VA system is decrepit.
Someone that posts here frequently floated the idea of a "medical mastercard" whereby the actual costs of care are known and seen by the recipient of said care, but the payments are handled by whomever. Some kind of incentive to keep costs within reason would be useful there too.
Getting rid of the employer tax exemption for insurance would do wonders for liberty AND costs.
But you don't hear Hillary! and Obama talking about that. No, you hear them talking about mandating insurance or some kind of tax-financed single-payer system. Which would be orders of magnitude worse than the present situation.
brian at March 21, 2008 2:04 PM
Amy -
What Obama did, if his granny was even "racist," was wrong because you don't reveal private people's private conversations or actions publicly
Sorry, while I am not an Obama fan, this is bullshit. Both my brother and I have talked about my mom (his step-mom) in a similar manner on his blog read by thousands daily. When it is relevant to the conversation, there is no reason not to mention people one knows personally to make a point. One could split hairs and accept that the disclaimers that go with such mention paint her in a slightly less negative light, but the affect is the same.
My mother actually read a post where she was mentioned in the body and further elaborated on by me in comments. Her response to it wasn't to get upset that we both went into some detail about her anti-gay rights stance. Rather, she really appreciated that we also talked in some detail that she also took care of not only our uncle, while he was dying of AIDS, but also a couple of folks who lived in the house he ran for people with AIDS. But then we weren't throwing her under a bus, any more than Obama did so to his granny, we were making the point that believing homosexuality is wrong or sinful, does not make one inherently bigoted, merely wrong.
Hell, Ed's made some comments about me that would likely embarrass most people. Now granted, he knows that it is virtually impossible to embarrass me, but he has never even thought to ask if I mind. Why? Because as my brother, he already knows that I could give a damn. Mind you, some of those comments have led to me getting emails from old friends, some of whom really wondered about me.
In a situation where you know the person being discussed might have a serious objection, then it would probably behoove the speaker not to mention them. But even then, it's between them and their family. If the family member chooses to go public with a scathing response, then it's likely to really backfire on the speaker. So be it. But I think that Jen is right, her feelings on the matter are relevant.
And I daresay, if she believed that talking about her could help put her grandson into the whitehouse, then it is highly unlikely that she had any objections. I think that I have been clear about my feelings for republicrats and politicians in general, I really don't like them. But I am far more keen on attacking their positions on issues, than trying to bash them for being what they are.
eric -
...so maybe there are nuanaces outside the realm of scary old Communist revolutionaries.
Not in brian's world. It's all black and white, with his extremist ideology being correct and everyone else being a radical lefty, bent on a socialist totalitarian state.
DuWayne at March 21, 2008 2:56 PM
This blog loves you back, Purp.
Crid at March 21, 2008 3:27 PM
Thank you for telling me what I believe, DuWayne.
brian at March 21, 2008 6:37 PM
Aww thanks.
PurplePen at March 22, 2008 9:21 AM
Oy, no problem brian, though I was actually mentioning it to eric. But any time I can help...
DuWayne at March 22, 2008 4:17 PM
is obama's grandmother still alive? apparently. yes i realize that question reveals my extreme ignorance of obama's family. don't really care. i say some things though about my dead grandmother that other people probably find highly offensive and disrespectful of her. but i knew my grandmother pretty well, and they didn't. if there is a life after death, she's laughing her head off at every single word.
that's my random point. i don't actually like obama, but it has nothing to do with this comment he made. don't really care what he says about his family, he knows them - obviously - better than i do. i don't like him because he has too much in common with brian, completely belittling other people's opinion because he thinks he's the only intelligent life on earth. (by the way brian, you're not)
kt at March 22, 2008 11:34 PM
Actually, kt, I am. You just haven't come to terms with it yet.
Besides, I only belittle those with provably stupid opinions.
brian at March 23, 2008 6:48 AM
whatever brian. where's scottie when i need him. you belittle everybody.
kt at March 23, 2008 9:23 PM
That's not true. I don't belittle Amy. But then again she doesn't say stupid shit. Or crid for that matter.
But every so often we get an influx of new posters that just spout stupid shit and need an object lesson in life. That lesson usually takes one of three forms: The world does not care how you feel, Government is not your friend, or The world does not revolve around your penis.
Amazingly, we've seen all three of those here in the past few days.
brian at March 24, 2008 5:19 AM
everyone says stupid shit at some point. amy, crid, and most especially you. how about starting from the premise that perhaps you're not entirely correct on every aspect of life and consider the idea that someone else might have something intelligent to say from a different perspective. people don't have to agree with you to be intelligent. the world doesn't revolve around your penis either. still can't find scottie.....
kt at March 24, 2008 8:19 PM
tttt
test at April 1, 2008 7:54 AM
tttt
test at April 1, 2008 8:00 AM
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