Karol's Got A Point
A lot of posturing about the detention centers. No discussion of what we do with people who enter the country illegally in lieu of putting them in detention centers.
— Karol Markowicz (@karol) June 19, 2019
More:
Bernie supports every far our idea out there and even he isn't for open borders. And if the election becomes "Democrats openly want to do nothing about illegal immigration" vs Trump's detention centers, pretty sure the latter wins.
— Karol Markowicz (@karol) June 19, 2019
Update -- question I posted on Quora, per a Courthouse News piece I saw:
Is the Trump administration right that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on cold concrete floors?
As Sanders said, "Open Borders? That's a Koch Brothers' Proposal!"
Cesar Chavez would agree.
And so would agree Paul Krugman, who, writing as an economist, writes:
https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/the-curious-politics-of-immigration/
> Just a quick note: my take on the politics of immigration is that it divides both parties, but in different ways.
> Democrats are torn individually (a state I share). On one side, they favor helping those in need, which inclines them to look sympathetically on immigrants; plus they’re relatively open to a multicultural, multiracial society. I know that when I look at today’s Mexicans and Central Americans, they seem to me fundamentally the same as my grandparents seeking a better life in America.
> On the other side, however, open immigration can’t coexist with a strong social safety net; if you’re going to assure health care and a decent income to everyone, you can’t make that offer global.
I think Karol is right about who will win when its Open Borders vs. Trump, but I'm not sure.
jerry at June 19, 2019 11:50 PM
So I'm hearing about babies having their clothes taken away and being forced to sleep on the floor.
I'm hearing about people being put in very cold rooms (50s Fareheit) and detained there for several days before their hearings.
I'm hearing about people not being allowed toothbrushes and soap.
So maybe I'm misinformed. But if I am properly informed it sounds rather horrific.
If you're going to detain people, a certain basic level of comfort needs to be provided. I'm talking things like toothbrushes, showers, soap. Basic food. A mat, pillow and a blanket to sleep on. A change of weather-appropriate clothes.
If it were up to me, I'd also hire more judges and lawyers at the border to process people more quickly.
NicoleK at June 20, 2019 1:55 AM
“If you're going to detain people, a certain basic level of comfort needs to be provided. I'm talking things like toothbrushes, showers, soap. Basic food. A mat, pillow and a blanket to sleep on. A change of weather-appropriate clothes”
Not my problem. I am in favor or immediate deportation to avoid these issues.
No one should be able to flout our laws and then dictate the conditions under which they are detained.
Isab at June 20, 2019 6:20 AM
> If you're going to detain
> people, a certain basic level
> of comfort needs to be
> provided. I'm talking things
> like toothbrushes, showers,
> soap. Basic food.
Do you want to pay for it?
Does the nation you are in now do that for anyone?
Because I think the media are playing you for a fool. You're talking about a standard of living that's already better then that in the source nations which these people have chosen not to improve to the North American standard of excellence.
And since it's not your money, it's a lot of fun to watch television and imagine yourself to be the moral exemplar for a crisis in which you play no part.
Difficult to take you seriously though, even if you were over here. And you are not.
Crid at June 20, 2019 6:22 AM
"Not my problem. I am in favor or immediate deportation to avoid these issues."
This is how Eisenhower handled it. And he didn't just send them back across the border. He shipped them to Vera Cruz, near Mexico's southern border.
One thing that's become clear to me is that there are significant chunks of the executive branch that are being massively insubordinate on this issue. It's clear that their actions all along have been to create a crisis where none existed. Trump needs to fire some executives, and then relocate some federal offices to El Paso.
Cousin Dave at June 20, 2019 7:03 AM
Also: The Left has done a great job of establishing, in a lot of people's minds, the equivalance: illegal immigration = all immigration. Thus, if you are opposed to illegal immigration, you are a racist nativist. This has really amped up the FUD factor that makes the issue difficult to discuss. I wish Trump would make a statement like this:
"We must control our borders. We cannot afford to offer refuge to everyone in the world who thinks they deserve it, and open borders are a pathway for terrorists and disease to enter the country. But once we have secured our borders, we need to reform our legal immigration system. It is unnecessarily bureaucratic and arbitrary, and it is preventing many people who would be valuable American citizens from entering. And, we cannot allow visa programs like H1-B to displace American workers while holding immigrants in a state of indentured servitude.
"The American people have made it clear that securing our borders is a necessary prerequisite to immigration reform. I ask Congress to pass measures to secure the borders, so that we can begin the vital work of reforming the immigration system."
Cousin Dave at June 20, 2019 7:14 AM
Most of those complaints about the boarder make sense NicoleK. There are just too many people coming over and they don't have the facilities to house them all. Which is why
"I'm hearing about people being put in very cold rooms (50s Fareheit) and detained there for several days before their hearings."
makes no sense. Essentially they have 10 rooms of people for every room currently built. Congress refuses to provide funding for purchasing currently built structures. Building new ones will take too long to make a difference. The current solution has been tent cities. And there the problem is the heat not the cold.
Trump has made good faith efforts to resolve the issues. The Democrats have made it clear they aren't interested in any of that. Instead they view the border problem as a positive for the next election. So like Isab and Cousin Dave I'm supportive of immediate deportation.
Also, you can't fire them CD. Unions and all that. But you can reassign them to wonderful new job . . . in Nome Alaska.
Ben at June 20, 2019 7:26 AM
It's a lot more than just Mexicans and Central Americans. I'm really surprised we haven't had more Venezuelans - maybe we have and it isn't reported? but I am surprised that the number of Central Africans[*] showing up at our border is leaps and bounds greater that it has been.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/us/border-africans-congo-maine.html
When ebola shows up in Ecuador, that will probably put a stop that port of entry to the Americas.
[*] someone needs to tell them the bad news that the USofA is a racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic cesspool and they should seek asylum elsewhere. I really don't want them to be disappointed when they find out that streets are not actually paved with gold.
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 7:58 AM
If it were up to me, I'd also hire more judges and lawyers at the border to process people more quickly.
They've been asked for.
Guess which branch of government is in control of the purse strings. Guess who has been slow walking those requests.
Remember, putting kids in cages wasn't a problem until 20 Jan 2017.
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 8:00 AM
Also, you can't fire them CD. Unions and all that. But you can reassign them to wonderful new job . . . in Nome Alaska.
Oh, come, now, what has Nome done to you? as a popular USAF saying puts it, why not Minot?
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 8:02 AM
Oh, come, now, what has Nome done to you? as a popular USAF saying puts it, why not Minot?
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 8:02 AM
The reezin is the freezin.
Making F.E. Warren looking like a veritable paradise in comparison.
Isab at June 20, 2019 8:17 AM
CBP says that an overwhelming majority of asylum seekers don't show up to their asylum hearings when turned loose into society and told to come back for the hearing. The last time I read something about it, I believe the number was 94%.
Those folks are not seeking asylum, they seeking a way in. And if they travel with children, because the court says the government cannot separate parents and children for an extended period of time, the chances they will be let loose to come back voluntarily for their asylum hearing are much greater. So, they pick up a child or two along the way. CPB estimates that a large percentage of illegal immigrants traveling with children do not know the child and are not related to him/her; the child is a beard.
The Obama administration struggled with these kinds of issues at the border. The Trump administration is struggling with those issues. The next administration will struggle with those issues. Until Congress is willing to do something about our overly bureaucratic immigration system, this will be an issue.
Unfortunately, we've got a political party in our country that believes more immigrants, legal or not, equals more votes for them. As a result, that party does nothing to solve the issue, but full-throatedly berates the opposition party for any solution it proposes.
And, because of that, the opposition party has a club with which to beat that party, it resists actually solving the problem and losing that club.
That Trump is not a sympathetic character makes it easier to berate his administration for any failures at the border ("mean orange man") and ignore the Obama administration's same failures at the same border.
Ideally, in a two-party system, we could work out a compromise. However, we've got a presidential election coming up and it's all-out no-holds-barred war between the parties right now and this can be turned into a campaign issue with which to club the other party.
Conan the Grammarian at June 20, 2019 8:45 AM
Of course they'll vote. What's another crime? and the feeling is that they'll vote for the party offering the most free shit.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/new-jersey/2019/06/19/nj-next-offer-drivers-licenses-undocumented-immigrants-new-york-new-jersey/1485004001/
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 12:01 PM
It is my understanding that the people who are turning themselves in at these checkpoints are being lawful. It isn't illegal to seek asylum.
I'm not talking about tents, I keep reading articles about freezing rooms that they are putting people into on purpose to make them cold. I agree it doesn't make sense, and sounds expensive, but apparently it is to deter people. (Though my thought was the temperature was exaggerated and it was AC put at a temperature comfortable for the workers in their uniforms, which might feel too cold if you're a Mexican in skimpy, wet clothes coming in from the heat. AC is a big complaint of European tourists as well in the US)
Look, we don't have to let everyone in but we do have to deal with the lines of people waiting to for us to decide to let them in or not.
It could be set up in many different ways. You could have food trucks selling food and blankets. You could have NGOs setting up food trucks of free food and blankets.
But why are congress people not being allowed in to see the facilities? I'm also reading about these centers being moved to military bases where there will be no accountability and no one will be allowed in to check on conditions. What's up with that.
Again, am I being misinformed? Is there an article or site out there countering the information?
Because at this point what I'm reading sounds so awful to contemplate that it MUST be fake, because if it isn't then it is so god awful fucked up beyond belief.
So if you all have evidence that babies AREN'T being stripped naked before being thrown onto the floor of an empty cell, I would love to hear about it because I agree, it sounds impossible. It HAS to be impossible.
NicoleK at June 20, 2019 12:19 PM
So if you all have evidence that babies AREN'T being stripped naked before being thrown onto the floor of an empty cell, I would love to hear about it because I agree, it sounds impossible. It HAS to be impossible.
NicoleK at June 20, 2019 12:19 PM
All that money for tuition at Oberlin, and you never learned that you can’t prove a negative.
Isab at June 20, 2019 12:51 PM
Kamala has some thoughts, tho I don't think she meant for anyone to come to this conclusion.
https://twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1141346734947426305
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 1:13 PM
"I keep reading articles about freezing rooms that they are putting people into on purpose to make them cold. "
It's South Texas/Arizona in June. QED. There isn't enough air conditioning in the world. Ever been to Phoenix in June? I have. I'm well acclimated to heat, but it's too hot in the daytime to do much of anything, even for me. Last year, when I was there at about this time, I took a photo of my rental car's outside air temp display one afternoon. It showed 122F, which is 50C.
"So if you all have evidence that babies AREN'T being stripped naked before being thrown onto the floor of an empty cell, I would love to hear about it because I agree, it sounds impossible. "
How does one prove a negative? "Sir, you've been accused of a bank robbery. We're going to need for you to account for your whereabouts, for every minute of every day that you've been alive. If you can't do that, we will assume you are guilty."
Cousin Dave at June 20, 2019 1:15 PM
But why are congress people not being allowed in to see the facilities?
Because they're not on the relevant oversight committees? it's not a tourist destination or a whistle stop on the campaign trail.
I'm also reading about these centers being moved to military bases where there will be no accountability and no one will be allowed in to check on conditions. What's up with that.
Yes, the poor folks will be housed in buildings called *checks notes* barracks. I believe these are also used to house enlisted members of the armed forces. Did you also hear that some of those facilities were used as internment camps?
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2019 1:19 PM
I watched a story about one of these Congressional visits on the local news a few weeks ago. The anti-Trump Congressional-delegation-with-an-agenda showed up unannounced and with TV crews and photographers in tow.
They were told they could not bring their TV crews and photographers inside with them. In addition, they were told that this was not a zoo and the people inside were not on display; that they would need to schedule a visit in order to be allowed inside - for oversight reasons only. Both of these rules set them off on a "do you know who I am" rant.
I worked last week in a Red Cross shelter for people who lost their homes to local flooding. The Red Cross has similar rules. Local politicians were not allowed to come inside and use people's misfortune as their photo op. The TV news crew was not allowed inside and could only interview people who agreed to come outside and talk to them.
Conan the Grammarian at June 20, 2019 2:31 PM
"Democrats are torn individually (a state I share). On one side, they favor helping those in need, which inclines them to look sympathetically on immigrants; plus they’re relatively open to a multicultural, multiracial society."
Apparently, you go deaf when someone else talks about illegal immigrants who are immediately given benefits they did not earn. Immigrants allowed into your city in violation of existing law.
What justice would a conspiracy to violate 8USC1182 actually bring, if it were enforced? What penalty should an officeholder sworn to uphold the Constitution and its laws suffer for doing that?
There are plenty of things wrong with the existing American population, some of which stems from the same misguided hand-them-someone-else's-money scheme. Why even take a bus to the job an illegal will risk their life for if I can sit at home and watch Oprah?
A bleeding heart wets everybody.
""We must control our borders. We cannot afford to offer refuge to everyone in the world who thinks they deserve it, and open borders are a pathway for terrorists and disease to enter the country. But once we have secured our borders,..."
Cousin Dave, Obama said nearly the same thing ten years ago -- but what incentive does any pol have to do anything but lie at this point?
Getting political power is the most important thing ever to some people, and paying for votes in any way possible is the way to that power.
Radwaste at June 20, 2019 3:03 PM
It is one thing to be empathetic to people who got caught in a hurricane, but many of the countries south of our border brought disaster upon themselves. Is it our fault that Venezuelans voted in Chavez just because he promised free stuff? Or that Mexico is so corrupt? Venezuela was so rich and they pissed it away. Argentina at one time (20 yrs ago?) was among the rich countries of the world and they screwed it up.
I am also not happy about admitting people who hate america or whites or Christians (either legally or illegally). Let them hate us from a distance.
cc at June 20, 2019 3:03 PM
"CBP says that an overwhelming majority of asylum seekers don't show up to their asylum hearings when turned loose into society and told to come back for the hearing. The last time I read something about it, I believe the number was 9
94%"
This is the exact opposite of true. Asylum seekers show up for their hearing 90+% of the time, according to the DOJ. And with the program Obama initiated (and Trump cancelled) it was over 95%.
Illegal immigration are far less likely to show up for hearings.
MIke at June 20, 2019 7:11 PM
AOC apparently called these detention centers "concentration camps".
You can't walk the other way to avoid a concentration camp.
Radwaste at June 20, 2019 8:05 PM
on Twitter plenty of ppl are for open borders but, short of a small contingency of libertarians, I've yet to meet anyone in real life who supports that
As a libertarian myself, it baffles me that libertarians take such a view. They have to realize that open borders are incompatible with a welfare state.
Even if open borders are a libertarian philosophical ideal (and I can make a case against that), it makes no sense to push for them until the welfare state is eliminated. Even then, a libertarian political system won't survive an influx of too many people who don't believe in such a thing.
Oh, and not to be a grammar Nazi, but the word Karol is looking for is "contingent", not "contingency".
Rex Little at June 20, 2019 9:36 PM
✓ Radwaste at June 20, 2019 8:05 PM
Crid at June 21, 2019 12:44 AM
"This is the exact opposite of true. Asylum seekers show up for their hearing 90+% of the time, according to the DOJ. "
What's your source for that? Because DHS says the opposite. asdfasd
Cousin Dave at June 21, 2019 6:32 AM
This incident has become a farce because Cortez is too vain to acknowledge legitimate criticisms of her statement. Rather she's doubled down, demanding that she's both literally correct and that critics are misrepresenting what she'd claimed and how she characterized those claims (they're not).
Someone genuinely motivated by concerns about detention centers would have tried to restore the focus on that issue long ago. But she's been fixated on litigating her statements and intentions via Twitter.
What's genuinely offensive, is that it's pretty obvious that she used the term 'concentration camp' to be dramatic. But this time even the people on her side objected to her hyperbole. And the press didn't rush in to defend her like they typically do. So when she had to actually justify her claims, it because quickly apparent that she hadn't thought past the detection center = concentration camp part.
stephanie at June 21, 2019 12:49 PM
Like many of her generation, she has not learned to argue or debate based on facts and evidence, merely to cast aspersions and make grand proclamations based on feelings.
Conan the Grammarian at June 21, 2019 4:34 PM
Conan,
Can you please tell me the percentage of congressional representatives from other generations that have learned to argue or debate based on facts and evidence?... as far as I can tell it doesn't seem like the numbers are so great.
We have entire clusters of boomers in congress who completely deny scientific reality.
Whatever your criticism of other generations might be... your own isn't doing so well in terms of following facts and evidence... climate change denial doesn't help make your case here.
In terms of facts and evidence though... semantic games aren't facts or evidence... it is people playing with defintions.
Facts and evidence would be things like what are the specific conditions in the so-called "detention center" or "concentration camp"?... do those conditions meet humane standards?... are the people safe?... are they being treated with human dignity?... are their specific cases being sorted out quickly, efficiently, and in accordance with local and international law?... etc...
That is a factual discussion... labels are just marketing.
Artemis at June 21, 2019 8:53 PM
Go away Artie.
Conan the Grammarian at June 21, 2019 11:19 PM
See Conan... this is the problem with many in your generation... you have not learned to argue or debate based on facts and evidence, merely to cast aspersions based on feelings.
Artemis at June 22, 2019 4:24 AM
No, Artie, we've just grown tired of your brand of stupid. Now, go away.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2019 6:00 AM
Conan,
There you go casting aspersions again... you know, if you were really just uninterested in the conversation you could choose not to respond at all.
My point stands that your criticism of AOC is kind of silly given your own history.
Keep freaking out over the fact that younger folks will be pushing you out... that is the only option for the future so you should either get used to it... or learn to properly engage in discussions where you don't start off assuming that you are the one in a position of power or authority.
Artemis at June 22, 2019 9:39 AM
Conan cannot argue his way out of a wet paper bag. Glad to see you won't go away, Artemis.
Oh and Conan, AOC was right, those are concentration camps.
The Encyclopedia Brittanica defines it as:
"Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."
She didn't say NAZI concentration camps. Your point has no basis in fact, sir.
Jacquelope at June 25, 2019 4:57 AM
That's pretty sad, Artie. Pathetic even.
Conan the Grammarian at June 25, 2019 2:28 PM
Conan,
Why are you brining me into this in your response to Jacquelope?
If you are trying to insinuate that we are the same person you are off your rocker... I have no clue who that person is.
You do realize that there is a whole world of people out there who do not share your perspective, right?
Artemis at June 26, 2019 7:15 AM
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