The thing couples fight the most about: money. Where and how his wife and kids lived isn't the issue. If you've been his girlfriend for two years and his saving/spending habits haven't changed by this point in his life they're never going to. If its a concern now just imagine how you'll feel down the road when you're married and his debts are yours.

And I can kinda see giving him another chance because you love him, and he's an amazing person, and he's working hard to be financially responsible, but "we get along well" seems really ... tepid.

Girlfriend, if you stay with this guy, you'll end up in that basement or supporting him while he lives with YOU. Don't know why your standards are so low, but you need to go off somewhere and have a serious, realistic look at yourself. The only woman who'd consider this guy a catch is one living in a homeless shelter, and she'd probably have a few doubts.

The biggie happened last week. I'm not clear what the "biggie" was - perhaps Amy could clarify. Is it (a) that he was married and has children? Or (b) that they lived with his parents? Or (c) that they lived in the basement, not the main house? Or (d) something else?

If the problem's just money, and you like the fellow, you can stay together but you need to have your eyes open. No joint accounts; no joint ownership of anything. You may be happy to give him an allowance and have a house-husband. But who exactly is going to pay the bills? So long as you are very clear on this, it could work, if you are both very honest. As he's 49, I guess your choice of men is limited.

If the problem's dishonesty, it's a different story, unless you think it was reasonably explained by his sense of shame, because you can fix that. But if he's just generally dishonest, I'd stay clear of him.

Norman,

Was it you who wrote a few months back something along the lines of: "Feeling sorry for someone is not loving them."

I think this is quite apropros here.

Oh my. This could be my ex-husband, were it not for the fact that his parents didn't want him in their house, so bought him a condo! (After they sold the trailer we had lived in, and the house that he lived in that his brother had owned. That he kind of trashed, by just not even keeping up with the usual maintenance. Total irresponsibility on his part. And his parents enable him, and he lets them, naturally. Not the way I wanted to live. They still give him an allowance. And the fact that Ex is 39, not 49.) But seriously, LW needs to look in a different part of the gene pool. Not the shallow end, for sure. Catspajamas is probably right, though. This guy is 49 years old, and not likely to change much regarding his spending habits. Time to grow a backbone where the wishbone is, for both of them.

LW didn't exactly say they were considering marriage, but if that is the case, then please first check the laws in your state. In my state, assets automatically go to both partners equally without a prenup when you tie the knot. Unless you want this financial tumor sucking the life out of you, don't do it.

Sounds like another case of "I can fix him." NO, YOU CAN'T. Please accept that for your own well-being.

Well, I think this LW is going to break up with this guy soon. It sounds to me like she realizes what a dick this guy is, since she concludes by saying: "I don't know if I'm more upset because he lied or because he put his wife and kids in a basement for so long." So it sounds like she's got her values straight. Because as much of an issue that money is for a couple, the lying and the ill-treatment of loved ones are worse. You can sometimes work around monetary issues, as long as you keep your finances separate. Lying and the other stuff? Not so much. It reminds me of a guy who I briefly dated (met him via on-line dating). He seemed OK on the first and second dates, though he did allude to some credit card debt on the second date. Third date, he tells me he has M.S. Which was fine--a kind of heavy thing to reveal so early in a relationship, but what else does one do in such situations? When is it appropriate to reveal something like that? Anyway, I told a friend about this, and he said that if this guy was telling me that on a third date, that he was definitely not done with making shocking revelations. I was skeptical of such generalizations, till date #4. On that date, at the end of the evening, he basically told me he was gay--but didn't want to be so, and therefore he was going to date women and marry and have children and a white picket fence in the suburbs... but just fantasize about men. So would I please continue dating him? He used a lot more obfuscating language, but that was the gist. So obviously, I wasn't going to go out with him again, and tried to convince him that he was in denial about his true nature and he'd be much happier if he was honest with himself. Anyway, I thought I'd never see him again, but he called, and I foolishly agreed to have dinner--I guess I had it in mind that I could convince him to be out of the closet. I felt kind of sorry for him. In any case, by this point, it was kind of a sitcom episode, and I was curious to see what might happen next. So: on that meeting, it became clear to me that he was crazy. Not just wacky-crazy, but certifiably crazy, likely a paranoid schizophrenic, if mildly so, highly intelligent and able to hold down a job and have an apartment.

I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt but this guy has no visible redeeming features. Living at you parents house for a short amount of time (2-6 months) cause shit happens is one thing, years are you kidding. His wife and kids had to live in his parents basement for "several years". Unless he's hot as shit and worships the ground you walk on drop him. He's either the dumb cute one or he's a leach, maybe both. Now if your loaded and just want a permanent cabana boy you should probably aim higher than a 49 yo free loader, my opinion. However to each her own, if you really into him then make damn sure your finances are COMPLETELY separate at all times. No joint anything ever. He could always be that trophy house hubby, but if your looking for more you won't find it with him.

Also he's both a free loader and a liar. If he's ashamed of his situation and he does nothing about it (4 years in the parents basement is doing nothing) then he's lieing (sp) about being ashamed.

Why is she angry? The guy is a deadbeat. She knows that and she wants him to change. This is typical chick logic......... 1. Don't accept what is and expect him to be different.
2. Blame him for wasting your time. 3. When a guy wants you to be different (lose weight) cry and stamp your feet that he doesn’t accept you.
4. He has to accept you but you don’t have to accept him

I can see what DavidH is saying too...

But really, why doesn't everybody stop projecting on guy, and give all a break. NO-ONE has the lowdown on boyos situation, and a friend of mine lived in his car for 6mo after getting divorced... it isn't pretty when somebody's life craters after stuff happens, and it can take years after to get back again. Maybe before he lived there with the ex and kids, he lost his job, or the jobs went away, or he got sick... Does he pay a boatload of childsupport and alimony to the ex? That can EASILY keep you in the basement, esp. if you loose your job.

Or it may be exactly as everyone says and he's still living like a teen. We just don't know.

To the person that wrote in to start with, yes, she should dump him. Regardless of his situation, he will never live up to her desire, because she has already said what her problem is. On the other hand if he isn't sponging off her, why can't they continue to be as they are? There isn't anything that says that they can't be 'travelling companions' from here on out, if they enjoy each other's company. Making a REALLY big assumption that she is close to the same age as he is, what difference does it make where he lives? Are we talking someone who needs marriage as an end unto itself?

Also? His parents are likely in their 70's or older, and they are probably going to start needing his help soon. Maybe he already does... That may be a valid reason to stay in the house, because it's coming.

My advice to HIM is to take a good long look at her, and at yourself. What is it she likes about you? What is it she hates? If she wants to change you into something you are not, let it go. If she wants you to clean up around the edges, maybe those are things you would like too. Why did you lie to her about this? Did you think you would change, or that she would change her mind? Have you had this money problem your whole life? Money is a nasty divider...

But she has laid her cards on the table here, and now you can decide what should be done. Just be mindful of her motives...

Ultimately all we know about this is her perspective, but without a lot of fact...

"If the problem's just money, and you like the fellow, you can stay together but you need to have your eyes open. No joint accounts; no joint ownership of anything."

For that matter, maybe she has no desire to marry or even cohabitate with this guy. (Sort of like Gregg and Amy, or me and my boyfriend.) Then you could make the argument that his finances don't matter, because you're never going to be sharing them anyway. And I guess I could get behind that ... to a point.

I bought my first house when I was 25 and worked two jobs for years, trying to keep my head above water and maintain my financial independence during a bad job market. I place such a high value on that, it would be very hard for me to be in a relationship with someone who didn't care about it at all. And it's not even to say one person is "right" and the other "wrong." I don't care about driving nice cars, while other people wouldn't be caught dead driving something more than two years old. Different strokes for different folks, and all - it's maybe more a matter of compatibility than anything else. Maybe her boyfriend would be better off with a woman who also lived in HER parents' basement.

I'm with SwissArmyD here, it's a bit of a leap with such limited info to bring out the knee-jerk reactionary "OMG girl you gotta dump him!!!111!" guns. I know it's always good for one's ego to push some random guy into a 'loser' box and kick him, makes one feel one's own status is higher for a few brief moments, but come on. I can't stand a leech either, especially not a male one, but nobody is perfect, and presumably there are other things that could make this relationship work (if only people stopped expecting perfection and chanting "dump him dump him" at any sign of a flaw - OK, a big one in this case). You can't allow someone to leech off you though. But I tend to believe people can change IF they want to. As was pointed out keep finances strictly separate. Lay down as a condition that you're not going to live with the parents (unless he has to because they're sick or something). Suggest - or even insist - that he go for debt counselling or something. See if you see visible signs of improvement.

Maybe she isn't the biggest catch either, and time isn't exactly on your side at that age for finding Mr or Ms Right, is it?

If you want the relationship, lay some ground rules where your "minimum standards" are. If it's just not possible for him to work out a way to meet those, then let it go.

It sounds like this guy has a self-destructive and self-sabotaging streak. Not being able to hold onto money is probably similar to other additions like gambling or overeating. Perhaps he should see a psych to figure out why he does that.

And do not, under any circumstances, loan the guy money :/

If it were only living with his parents then I'd say we may have jumped to conclusions. However combine that with his inability to hold onto money and I think the judgment maybe harsh but fair.

I'm curious though what kind of basement he lived in. If it's a three story apartment building and he had the basement apartment I wouldn't see it as such a bad thing. I had friends growing up that had basements larger than 2000 sqr ft.

The big problem comes from the inability to hold onto money. Child support maybe and issue though. I got the impression from her "(I'm frugal and he can't hang onto a dollar.)" that he likes to spend it as opposed to being broke by circumstances.

I completely agree with David J's comment:

"if only people stopped expecting perfection and chanting "dump him dump him" at any sign of a flaw".

Yep, this guy seems to have some flaws, but what relationship have you seen lately that is perfect? How we choose to deal with issues is important. There's something to be said for tenacity if it's warranted. Our MTV/Short Attention Span values can prevent us from having some meaningful relationships. However, the other comment that rang so true to me was Amy's:

"Instead of pretending not to see the dealbreakers so you can make the deal, be honest about your standards, and hold your dates up to them from the start."

If more people took this advice, she'd be out of work. Happily, I would imagine.

I'm not clear what she's asking, or maybe she's just venting. But I do agree that we shouldn't cry, "dump him" so fast. I've learned that depending on how my girlfriends and I frame complaints about our guys, we can ellicit whatever response we want to hear at any given moment, and when you're really annoyed, it's easy to paint the worst picture, so everyone will support you in venting about what a "jerk" he is.

However, she is saying definitively that he's a liar. That, to me, is worse than being a poor breadwinner. It's obvious she'll have to be the money manager in the relationship if it ever goes anywhere, but that's not insurmountable. A lot of couples handle that well. It's the lying part that's troublesome.

Yet, if she's this judgemental, he may have simply been afraid to tell her, and why is it really her business anyway? Sounds like this happened years ago. If his ex went along with living in the basement until their divorce, why is SHE so upset by it? Is it because he's still living in the same basement he shared with his ex? lol

If I were in the LW's shoes, it wouldn't be the fact he was still in the space he'd shared with his ex that bothered me so much as the fact that at 49 he was living with, and leaning on, his mommy and daddy. I'm a landlord, and I rent some really tiny, cheap studios. I'd far sooner date a guy who rented one of those $315/month studios, but stood on his own two feet, than some guy who hadn't had the balls to get out of his parents' house by middle age. That he was willing to move his wife and kids into his parents' house rather than do whatever it took to keep them in some place, *any* place, of their own, is even more damning.

This guy is a Peter Pan, and I'd bet he's unhealthily enmeshed with his parents, too. I'd run a mile.

Yes, but he's 49 and has only lived with them for the past 4 years, so it's not like he's a Peter Pan that never left home. As others have suggested, he may also need to care for his aged parents and help maintain the home at this point. She really doesn't say, except that he got himself into debt. It may have started like that, and now, it's just the most sensible living arrangement. We really can't know.

I'm also a landlord, but in my area, there are no $315 studio apartments. That may not be such an easy option depending on where he lives.

Times are tough, and there may well be valid economic reasons that this guy doesn't have money, but the LW doesn't mention any - just says he can't hang onto a buck. If he needed to live with his parents to care for them you'd think he'd have said that up front, instead of lying about his living and debt situation out of shame. If he and his family lived in the basement for several years prior to their divorce that suggests his debt isn't due to alimony and child support. Its not so much a "biggie" that his family lived in his parents basement, but its worrisome that it took him this long to tell the LW.

Yes, there may be other stuff going with this situation. Maybe this guy has a really good excuse for his debt problems, or maybe he's the perfect guy in other respects and the LW and he are mad enough about each other that they're willing to work on this together. But really all we have to work with is what the LW has given us: an apparently lackluster two-year relationship that's short on trust, long on deceit, and with apparently no improvement in sight. Maybe some of us sound harsh but I don't think the LW is venting. I think she wrote to an advice columnist for advice. Here's mine: don't tangle your life up with this guy more than it already is. Date other people. Find someone who tells you the truth and makes your heart go pitter-pat.

If they have been going out for two years, hes not likely to be a socially and financially inept vagrant. We are not told of the circumstances as to why he is in debt, or why his family lived with the parents. The only fact I can see here is that she is a shallow tight arse bitch. All by her own admission. They are hardly close being that she didnt even know where he lived for so long, so her only insight into him 'not being able to hold onto a dollar' is probably what he spends on her. As a self confessed 'frugal' it is easy to assume she doesnt pay for anything.
It is better to live like a king and die like a pauper than to live like a pauper and die like a king.

And why is it if she is so perfect and such a great catch that she is still single at near 50 years of age. And if she is younger it would be obvious that she is only upset that he doesnt have as much money as he appeared to have. Only in the very sickest of people would money be an attraction.

Al,

Just because a person is single doesn't mean they are not a good catch, but she's not single anyway. She's with the near Senior Citizen living with mama.

A good proportion of women find monetary stability attractive.

There's a lot of sick bitches out there!

Why do some of you use every situation to verbally assault the opposite gender? There's no need to throw out the b word here. Nothing the LW said warrants that assumption or an attack on women in general. Besides, it's just an unattractive term that makes you sound harsh and bitter.

Anyway, good points and well-said catspajamas. It is the lying that is more worrisome than his debt. Yet, the first lie -"I live near my parents" - isn't that horrible, considering when you're first dating and maybe don't want to give out all your embarrassing info yet. And I'm not clear whether the other lie was by ommission or if she asked him repeatedly about his wife ever living there and he lied straight to her face.

However, what comes through clearly in her letter is that she feels contempt for him, and that is really the leading sign that a relationship will fail. If she has so little respect for him this early in the game, she should get out and find someone she can admire and trust.

And really, guys, that is true for you too. How can you have a good relationship with any one woman when you show contempt for the whole gender? I've watched men rail against women with their wives sitting right there. Do they not realize she's also a woman? Same goes for women who bash men. Whenever you show contempt, even indirectly, you're really eating away at the relationship. It's usually a long, slow death, but in the end, that sort of contempt and disrespect destroys relationships.

lovlysoul, you say a lot of sensible things, thanks.

"Why do some of you use every situation to verbally assault the opposite gender?"

Cuz it's funny, lovlysoul(snicker)!

"How can you have a good relationship with any one woman when you show contempt for the whole gender?"

Cuz it produces humor, which often times leads to sex.

And I AM one of those bitches!....who doesn't find profanity necessarily a verbal assault...especially in extraordinarily jovial situations....or unnecessarily mundane ones.

kg, I kind of thought you were being facetious, but I wasn't sure.

Personally, I don't feel it's all that healthy for women to promote that term, even for humor. It's too often used in a degrading, abusive manner against us.

I guess it's kind of how some rappers think it's ok to use the n-word now. But, to me, coming from the south and seeing how my (white) parents fought against those sorts of degradating terms during the civil rights movement, it's discouraging.

The b-word is used so much in domestic violence that it bothers me to see girls now wearing it on their t-shirts like it's cute slang. What are we saying to men, "Call us 'bitches'...it's ok with us?" Well, then, what else can we expect? Frankly, I don't think many guys here are using the term humorously.

CeeCee, I agree that guy was wacky, but he wasn't dishonst! At least you knew upfront what you were getting into and realized, no thanks!

but..but..but..CeeCee used the d word first......, and now kg has used the sc word, surely thats much more bader. I just have to know what the n word is.....somebody please tell me.
Ok my apologies to lovelysoul for the b word, I had just woken up and wasnt thinking and dont want to be on detention or locked in a basement today. I wouldnt mind normally but the wife and kids make such a racket in there.
My point was that she sounded very shallow. If it were me, I would have lied and told her I had done that in the hope that she would f word off and find someone else with their head equally shoved up their a word. Maybe he has got bags of money and just wants rid of her. For many years I had a full length viking beard just so that toffy nosed pompous twatts wouldnt come near me. Worked like a charm, met a lovely genuine little english backpacker and got married as well.

"She's with the near Senior Citizen living with mama."

OK Hold on a minute... I am 44 and do not feel AT ALL like I am a near Senior Citizen. Please...

Al: "And why is it if she is so perfect and such a great catch that she is still single at near 50 years of age?" Ow! Please, let's not assume she's desperate and somehow sub-standard based solely on her possible age. It kind of pisses off those of us who are around that age and still happily free-range.

Some women actually do what Amy suggests: "... be honest about your standards, and hold your dates up to them from the start." That's certainly what I'm doing, in between soaking my dentures and polishing my "spinster" vanity plate.

Yeah, have you ever heard of divorce? A lot of us great catches find ourselves single at this age - not because we're deficient, but because our chosen spouses are idiots, going through some mid-life crisis. It hardly means we aren't worthy. My ex would kill to have me back now...but too late. I found someone who truly appreciates what a great catch I am.

Al is assuming she's never been married, but I'll bet that's not the case at all.

maybe she'll get along with his mommy. maybe his mommy will leave her the basement in the will. does mommy wipe his ass too? i thought i made poor choices with men! i'm only 40, but i think if in 10 years i was still making poor choices like this one, i'll just shoot myself. its pretty sad that angry girlfriend even needs to write a letter to an advice column for this one. i just wish i knew which part made her angry. oh, and the best is, after she moves into the basement, the kids can come for visitation and they can pitch a tent!

"The b-word is used so much in domestic violence that it bothers me to see girls now wearing it on their t-shirts like it's cute slang. What are we saying to men, "Call us 'bitches'...it's ok with us?" Well, then, what else can we expect? Frankly, I don't think many guys here are using the term humorously."

I think you are genuinely concerned, but it's misguided. You are using the domestic violence example as a template for relationships. Yeah, I'm sure the men and women who revert to domestic violence as a means of conflict management will also use profanity as a acute form of expression. Conversely, however, many people who use profanity would never consider domestic violence a life-style choice.

People dictate the way others treat them, but it is clearly expressed by actions less than words.

When I tell my main squeeze, "Bitch, get in my bed!" He's pretty happy about it.

Then, does he say, "Whore, turn off the TV?" To each his own, I guess. It's certainly not a template for relationships. I'm not against profanity...just THAT profanity.

You've obviously never lost a friend to domestic violence, or maybe experienced it, so it doesn't have that sting for you.

No, he says, "Get your fat ass in bed then, ho!" It's a total blast.

And I haven't lost a friend from domestic violence, but I've had a few who have had shitty abusive relationships. As I have comforted and loved them through them, I have also reminded them that they let this person into their lives. I reiterate that WE dictate the way other people treat us. Then I tell them to pick better next time around. I say, "Bitch, please! Don't you want a man with integrity??!!!"

Maybe your friends would have an easier time differentiating who to let into their lives if you didn't also call them "bitch". Seems to me it gets a little confusing to tell the difference between friends and abusers that way...especially if you express what a "total blast" it is to be called a "fat ass ho".

It's hard enough for most women to spot an abuser without us glorifying verbal abuse as somehow fun and sexy. I'm glad it works for you (until the first time he truly means it), but that's not an ideal dialogue in my opinion.

May I offer

http://www.heartless-bitches.com

as one example of not taking ourselves too seriously when using that particular word?

Thanks.

catspyjamas:
Some women actually do what Amy suggests: "... be honest about your standards, and hold your dates up to them from the start." That's certainly what I'm doing, in between soaking my dentures and polishing my "spinster" vanity plate.

Thats fine by me, honesty is great but being realistic is too. There are a lot of Fat horrible bush pigs out there who wouldnt settle for anyone less than brad pitt with twice the money, and before you all start screaming. There are just as many men wanting nothing less than angelina without the kids(or before them lol)
So if your soaking your dentures but want a man with perfect natural teeth....its unrealistic. Im not being personal, just pointing out that that there are millions of people around that are all too good for each other. If your happy single thats lovely...but humans arent usually, thats why Amy has got a job doing what she does.
kg:
Conversely, however, many people who use profanity would never consider domestic violence a life-style choice.
This reminds me of an email I got the other day, slightly off topic but the same point, I dont know how true it is but bloody funny if it is.
Female abc reporter interveiwing the head honcho of our army who was taking a bunch of boy scouts on a tour of some army base somewhere.
her:so what are you going to do with the scouts today
him: we will do a tour and introduce them to some archery, orienteering and riflemanship.
her: your going to let them use guns?
him: well yes, that will be part of the day
her: thats a bit irresponsible at their age isnt it
him: i dont see why, we will be training them in proper safety operation before they get to pick up a weapon
her: but youll be equiping them to become violent killers
him: i dont see how, you're equipped to be a prostitute. are you one?
Sudden end to interview. lol

lovelysoul, I dont go much on the young girls walking round with bitch t shirts and car stickers, but I do appreciate them advertising it. The worst part about that is the fat bellys hanging out from under it and strutting round thinking its as hot as hell and growing into another one of the ' i only date the rich and good looking' mob.

And yes I officialy have too much time on my hands and do not condone giving people guns.

lol @ flynne
I see that the term 'slut' is having a facelift into the female equivalent of 'stud' and being used with pride by many women these days too
Bring on progress, makes me wish I was 20 again

Let's hope "bastard" and "prick" become just as popular. Yet, somehow, I can't see young men wearing that on their T-shirts. Why? Because using those derogatory terms and dressing like sluts is how women are trying to "empower" themselves in a way that men also find acceptable, even titillating...so, in essence, it's not "empowering" at all. That's just giving in to a negative definition of ourselves that men find appealing.

I dont think thats the case, and I dont think they were or I implied that they dressed like sluts, that would imply cheap. These were high powered successful women. It was more to do with stating female power,equality and freedom. Its all how people look at themselves i spose.
Women often veiw prostitutes as being victims yet most prostitutes would tell you they are simply exploiting men for money and they hold the power. In different situations both would be true
In the vast majority women indeed do hold the sexual power.That is why most religeons are born. Both Muslim And Christians have struggled to control womens sexuality.(or destroy may be more accurate)So they are born thru male insecurity. Women are the only creatures on earth with an organ devoted purely to pleasure. It is a shame that many feel this is a burden.
I am sorry I offended lovelysoul so deeply with the b word. My appologies to Amy for all this going off topic too.

I'm sorry this has gone off topic too, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Al, c'mon....Muslims and Christians practice religions that were born because of "female sexual power?!" And "Women are the only creatures on earth with an organ devoted purely to pleasure. It is a shame that many feel this is a burden." Are you kidding?

I submit that those religions, particularly Muslim, are some of the most oppressive towards women....and the vagina is devoted more to childbirth than sexual pleasure. If any organ is devoted exclusively to sexual pleasure it is the penis! Ask almost any woman this...no matter how great you think you are in bed, it's clear the act of sex is definitely slanted towards the pleasure of the male, not the female (though our Meg Ryan screams may lead you to believe otherwise).

Please, all I am saying is that women are playing into a certain degradation that men would NEVER allow. We call ourselves bitches and sluts...and we even think it's "our" idea...but it's more a media thing for women. I mean, we have Paris Hilton as a role model -that says something about our culture - and it's telling us to dress like sluts and call ourselves "bitches" and "fat ass ho's".....and, I'm sorry, but that just didn't originate from a woman...it signals a male influence...so who really has the sexual power?

Maybe you should look up the female anatomy and do some learning. Have you forgotten you have a clitorus. It is indeed what I stated it was. If you only use your vagina during sex it is no wonder that you feel sexual enjoyment is primarily for men. That is indeed a sorry thing for you indeed. Your biggest sexual organ is your brain if your sexual thoughts are suppressed this too will result in your attitude to sex being what it is.
muslims are pretty straight up about their control of women, if you feel sexual they will just chuck rocks at you till your dead, if its not public knowledge yet your father or brother will slit your throat. Christians are a bit more pycological about it they relegate sexual feeling women to a substandard class of people as being prostitutes and sluts. You cant really take away the words but if the connotation of being bad is removed from them it would lessen the control. You are supporting that by advocating that it is bad.

You keep saying 'our' as if you are a victim of everyone elses thoughts. Is paris Hilton your role model, are you being told to dress like a 'slut' You can do, dress, think as you like, YOU are in control of your life. And other women should be able to dress sexy if they like without being labelled a slut or prostitute or made to feel less worthy as a person.
I was playing pool online the other day and my opponent called me a bastard everytime i sunk a ball. I just smiled to myself as he was admitting i was playing better than him.
You dont have to be a victim if you dont want to be. And just because you feel you are so victimised doesnt mean other women think they are, you are using the collective to justify your own feelings.

well I can go either way on this, as said above hard times and ridiculous child support divorce payments and penalties exist --- my now millionaire bro was deficient to the point of no passport to do what turned out to be his turnaround - and he was shamed into living at inlaws, now at very cool costa Rica place and paid off...

other hand -- a bf last year finally admitted he had not been taking care of his aging father, rather an insidious combo of co-caretaking, I marched him around one night to apts he could afford, that is one way to check if he is serious - wasn´t - likes the comfort

hey you guys how did this turn into a paris hilton talk? don´t mind but really....

I don't really know how to comment on any of this. It's getting ridiculous. You didn't say "clit", so I only assumed you meant vagina. This all started because somebody was defending calling this LW a "bitch."

For the record, I dress sexy and have lots of great sex with my boyfriend. I'm slender, blond, and blue-eyed, which is considered pretty much the sexual "ideal" in this country, so I'm not some unattractive, bitter, sexually-repressed woman writing this and crying "victim".

But I'm also the mother of a teenage daughter, and friends to some women who've been severely abused...one who was killed by her boyfriend last year. If you guys don't get what I'm saying...that it seems unhealthy to have girls walk around with degrading, demeaning terms on their shirts, or to laugh it off when men call them "fat-ass-hos"...well, then, I guess that sort of stupidity has become ingrained in our culture. I was just asking you to look at it more critically.

When people think of themselves as victims, they see the world though the victim filter. I read Al's comment and understood that he meant the clitoris and religion as a way to control women, it was very plainly stated. I don't think of myself as a poor oppressed woman however, I guess that's why.

BTW Al, I'm 49, single, and quite perfect!

This has nothing to do with me being a victim. First, you attack the LW, so I defend her against being called unnecessary and degrading names, and now, I'm being called names and labeled a victim. It seems impossible to have a decent dialogue about what's cultural responsible here without being personally attacked.

The fact is there is a high prevalence of domestic violence in this country...that's not me being a "victim"...that is just the simple truth...that there are women (and men) being victimized. Yet, according to you all, just saying anything about that means you're viewing YOURSELF as a victim.

That's like saying if I want to talk about conserving our forests, for instance, then I must view the world from the perspective a tree. "Well, if you see the world through the tree filter..."

I am not a tree. I am not a victim. However, there are trees, and there are victims. It's too bad we can't talk intelligently about this without getting personal.

What is this guy's ethnicity? In some cultures, it is considered much more acceptable to live with your parents than in others. Is he a recent immigrant or first generation kid from one of these countries?

All hail the clitoris - the only human organ that is just and only for FUN!

lovlysoul, I can see where you're coming from. There does seem to be a trend lately towards girls in their teens and early 20s dressing in what my mother likes to call "skankwear" - everything cut low, and short and two sizes too small. I also blame Paris Hilton, and Britney Spears, and all those "celebrities" who are constantly filmed wearing almost nothing. Girls are inundated with these images, and told constantly that they're "hot", and what's "hot", and that they deserve a "hot" guy, and some of them - whether as a result of a lack of decent role-models or the ability to think for themselves - model themselves on these images. Its all about the appearance, the surface - as long as he's "hot", and has a cool ride, and buys you stuff - that's all that's important. Shallow.

I was always taught that people will treat you the way you present yourself. (Despite that I still spent several years in the late 70s soaking my fully-clothed self in the bath tub to shrink-fit my jeans. But after a while I grew up.) If you dress in "skankwear" 24/7 you'll attract a certain type of guy. If you're stupid or gullible enough to wear a t-shirt with "bitch" written across the front be prepared for the assumptions other people will make. If you're sticking it out there expect people to look. Its every woman's right to dress as she wishes but we have to realize that people will make assumptions, fair or not.

As Al says, nothing wrong with "dressing sexy" when time-and-place-appropriate, but women who expect respect should learn that there's a fine line between sexy and whatever the heck Pamela Anderson has turned into.

As for "hot" guys - none of us are perfect, but I find when I get to know and like someone they start to become more attractive to me. I'm not looking for flawless teeth (and just so we're all clear mine are all my own), or perfect hair, or hair generally for that matter. I'm looking for the guy that's smart, and values my smarts, and thinks my ass is gorgeous, and can live with my bad hair ...

lovelysoul
I agree I was far too personal, but to state that sex is mostly only enjoyed by men and that all women are faking it(meg ryan screams) was way out there I thought. Im sure you are a lovely person, you have tho in my opinion painted a victims picture to some extent. Great if thats your argument and not personal. If I was surrounded by people in abusive and fatal relationships I would be asking myself why that is.
Personally I cant stand scankware. But in retaliation for the harm religion and repressed sexuality has done for the minds of women(and many men)I am all for doing whatever feels good, and the reality is skankware on one person is sexy on another, that comes back to being realistic. And sexy is born from confidence so if it makes you feel good its all fine by me.
Ok, so back to the actual subject. Being the argumentative, antagonistic sort of bastard that I am, I think it time to have a go at Amy(shock horror)
We only know two things about these people,
He is not a finacial genious and has told a porky pie through embarassment, and she is a tight arse. My reasoning is that so many assumptions are made from such a small amount of information, that it would be impossible to stick to such a small point. If there was more to the letter than this, maybe we could have a little more background, but then its her show and I think she is really cool too.
Chrissy, we have a saying in Oz
GO YOU GOOD THING.
unfortunately im not perfect and not that happy about being 40
If anyone would like to abuse me privately, or just have a chat my email is its_bundy_son@yahoo.com.au

Thanks, cats and Al. I agree with you, Al, that this is difficult due to the limited information...not just with the LW but ourselves. We know almost nothing about each other, yet one comment can be expanded into a typecast, complete with the negative views one is assumed to have, then there are personal attacks made based on that misinformed judgment.

I just don't want to be known here as some sexually-repressed victim...because that is definitely not me.

I really don't mind "skankwear." I think I spent most of my 20s in spandex, and even now, I enjoy wearing sexy clothing (though my taste and budget have gratefully improved).

My comment was purely about the odd use of the term "bitch" - how, on one hand it is a mean, degrading and abusive term, yet, on the other, it is used almost like "girlfriend" -"Hey, bitch, how ya' doin?" and women wear it on their shirts as a badge of honor - "I'm a bitch."

It's just curious to me why that is - why we try to normalize words, like the n-word too, that originate as hurtful and degrading....and still remain so...yet, we also try to make them cool and sexy at the same time.

I mean, it would be great if they just evolved into cool, sexy words without the other connotations, but that's not what happens.

And, certainly, as someone who lost a friend last year to domestic violence, my gut reaction is that the term "bitch" should not be trivialized by women, and especially young girls, who may not realize the mixed message...or what type of guy that can attract.

But anyway, if we get each other so wrong, I wonder how wrong we get the LW. Does anyone ever write back and let us know what happens?

Oh, as far as the "Meg Ryan screams" comment, I'm sorry if that was out there. At the risk of being labeled a "victim" again just for saying this, but my point was just that orgasm is much more easily attained (usually) by men than women. I thought that was a pretty well-established fact.

All hail to the mighty clit (lol), but it's a more fickle instrument than yours....and a lot of men (sadly) don't seem to even know where to find it, or once found, what to do with it.

But I'm not complaining...it's great when in the right hands...or...whatever...

I did definately use the b word in the mean, degrading and abusive context.Frugal= scum to me.
If you sent ten people into a bar and GAVE them 100 dollars each, there would allways be 1 or 2 that would sit there all night accepting drinks from everyone, would probably request the most expensive and wouldnt get up to buy a round all night, then at the end of the night as everyone is pooling their last coins for a cab, they would drive off in a taxi leaving the others behind, muttering 'why should I pay for the taxi, they had as much money as me, they are just irresponsible bastards.
There are two ways to be rich, earn a lot of money, or never spend any and soak up everything around you. It is one thing to turn people away with distain when you dont know them, but quite another in my opinion to do that to people who you would supposedly care for, and this woman has known him for two years, knows also that he allready supports one family and may even support his parents too. She cares for him so much that instead of inviting him to her place she writes to Amy hoping that she will justify her thinking. Worse still a bunch of people pipe up with what a loser he is and dump him quick. The majority of the human race is absolutely pathetic. Shame Shame Shame. And if thats her biggest problem in life she ought to think herself very bloody lucky

Ok thats off my chest lol. I still dont know what the n word is...Please put me out of my misery.

Lovelysoul, you are dead right about women on the meg Ryan subject, for many anyway. My point is that it is not naturally meant to be this way and that women ARE the more sexual beings, whether they appreciate or utilise that is a different point again I suppose, the clit point is solid proof i would have thought, but it is also backed up by several thousand billion dollars worth of beauty products and advertising.
The phrase 'nice girls dont do that' would be the most damaging words ever uttered to girls. A young girl who touches herself is treated with near hysteria whilst the attitude to boys is 'boys will be boys' This is why a clit is far more 'fickle' than a penis, as a lot of women dont know what to do with it and feel dirty touching it. It is also very unique to each individual woman, depending largely on her attitude or the attitude forced on her usually ironically by her mother.
Ok where do men fit in here as far as knowing what to do with one, lets see. Many women dont know what to do with it so we wont learn from them, many that do realise that it is there, expect a man to know how their individual one works and (sadly)lie there thinking silly clutz instead of actually showing them, and in America it sounds like you have to be rich to get near one in the first place. Add to this that if you were rich you'de probably just pay for it and be done with all the embarrassment. So the fact that men obtain orgasm more easily than women is not too surprising being that women dont learn to do it themselves. The fact that this is not the case with women who are in touch with their minds and bodies, would indicate that it is sexual repression that is responsible for this rather than a difference in anatomy.

On the positive side, there is not much better in life than helping a woman break through some of these barriers, Although sadly the psychological side can often never be outgrown or overcome.

Al, it's not that simple. I've been touching mine most of my life - and my parents weren't religious, quite liberal, really, so nobody told me it was "bad". But, the fact is, it's just more difficult for most of us women to reach orgasm (with someone else, not necessarily by ourselves). Maybe God intended the clit to be "just for fun", but he could've done a better job at placement in my opinion. If you read the surveys in women's magazines, there's a fairly large percentage of women who admit to never having orgasms during intercourse.

I don't think that's really the fault of our lovers in most cases...or our parents or upbringing (some of the horniest women I know were raised Catholic - all that hell and fire and brimstone talk is an aphrodisiac for some people). It's just anatomy, and the fact that it's harder for us to reach a position of maximum stimulation.

That said, I agree that the poor guy in this scenario was being unfairly condemned, but I also think she was too. We don't know that he's supporting his parents - they could be supporting him. As you've said, there's just not enough information to go on here, so it's best not to judge either of them too harshly.

Ide love to hear the reasoning behind
(with someone else, not necessarily by ourselves)
Im not saying your wrong or having a go at you personally. But it does seem hilarious that with the extra stimulation of an actual man it becomes more difficult.
I figure that the placement would make it in reach of either partner in any position. I love talking to women about orgasm, nothing seems to make any sense at all. lol If there were a god he must be rolling round on the floor laughing at us all the whole time

Why doesn't that make sense? I think the reason it's hard for women to help men understand what to do for them individually is that they get this kind of reaction.

Yes, it's great having an "actual man", but many men think it's enough just to stick it in and thrust it around...and if you try to tell them differently, their egos are hurt...or they act like something is wrong with you, that you're not a real woman or you're sexually-repressed because you don't get off as easily as those porn stars they watch. (I have a male friend who is a porn star and he tells me that the women aren't getting off for real...too many stops and starts and camera angles to contend with...but a lot of guys think it should be as easy as it "looks").

I'm not saying that's you, but sometimes it's just too sensitive an issue to bring up with the guy you're with.

I'm lucky that's not the case with my boyfriend now, but my ex-husband used to get "hurt" whenever I'd touch myself during sex. But since, I've had guys who were fine with that - and my boyfriend is like, "whatever works" - toys, vibrators, etc. That's so freeing....because a lot of times it's hormonal. Certain times of the month are harder than others.

I mean, we don't have as much testerone as you, and that's probably as it should be from an evolutionary standpoint. I honestly don't think we women were meant to be the sexual creatures...not as much childrearing would get done if we were as focused on getting laid as you guys are. lol

Women are more sexual, that's why there is so much focus in religion and culture in general about controlling them. Fortunately it's only mind control, nobody in the Western world is actually castrating women (you know, cutting their clitorises off). My personal orgasm record was 15 in one day, and there are many who have vastly surpassed that number.

I've met a lot of the same type of guys at lovlysoul has, and the problem is that they're either selfish, or overly sensitive to any kind of feedback. The smart ones will do what you tell them that you want them to do (which you have of course said in a very seductive way, and not screamed at them), and the ones that won't aren't worth bothering with anyways.

For the guys who don't already know this, the woman always comes first, and the easiest way to get her there is oral. It's incredibly difficult for a woman to come during intercourse, so don't pressure her to perform like a porn star. Once she's come she won't fall asleep, it usually energizes her and then it's your turn to get off. Usually she'll be very happy so you will be well taken care of.

I don't know very many women who are the victims of abuse, and the few that I have met, I feel sorry for them that they made a bad choice. Some men have anger management problems, and the signs are there from the beginning. I read the book Amy recommended, 'The Gift of Fear', which I thought was brilliant.

cool...feedback...lol
I agree totally on the ego point, all points actually. I have a mate thats 40 and is the absolutely hopeless like that, several actually. I had many deep conversations with a girlfriend he did have for a short while, (she was the sister of another good friend and we have all known each other since we were kids)and was appalled at how stupid he was. I felt deeply sorry for each of them.
I do feel that there should be no issue too sensitive to bring up with a partner and those things should never go unspoken. My advice to lovelysoul on your ex would have been to belt him over the head with a large lump of wood and grow tomatoes on him in the back yard. But that is not really very productive(unless you really like tomatoes)(and my advice is mostly crap anyway)
I am a little surprised that the focus from you both seems to be clitoral more than psychological, as without the brain working the clit doesn't either, or to a lesser extent. Thats why my focus before on psycological suppression.
Lovelysoul I find it incredible that there would be people that think porn is real but I know your right and we could probably feed the world on tomatoes from them.
I believe that there are two types of female orgasm, they would be better described as a climax for clitoral, and what they call vaginal orgasm, to be an actual orgasm, which isnt really vaginal but more of a mind,body, soul kind of thing. I think many women strive for climax rather than orgasm and orgasm cant be acheived without considerable mind stimulation. Climax can by just physical stimulation, I am presuming that is what you mean lovelysoul by it being easier by your self rather than with a man, would I be right in thinking that this then confuses what women are trying to acheive as they then expect to orgasm with a man but may have to resort to just getting to climax and this is then difficult because the man doesnt allways know your particular technique.
Just a note on me, I am happy to be critisised and enlightened and instructed. It is all usually constructive in some way.
Chrissy, again, GO YOU GOOD THING. And appologies AGAIN to lovely soul as I did sound kind of demeaning, its my warped sense of humor and less than eloquent writing expression skills.

Thanks, Chrissy, for backing up my points.

Al, I agree there are two kinds of orgasms - clitoral and vaginal. Maybe a third, which is the two combined (absolutely the best!). That's personally what I strive for and rarely achieve. It takes focus, and for me it sometimes gets confusing or distracting during intercourse - trying to follow the pace of my partner while still maintaining enough clitoral stimulation. Maybe I'm just not a good multi-tasker. lol

Yet, as Chrissy said, oral is the easiest way for women...at least when you have a partner who is both into it and good at it, or willing to learn. From what I hear from my girlfriends, I've been pretty lucky in that regard because all of my major partners (including the ex) have enjoyed that, whereas some say their men don't or won't.

My little sister just told me yesterday that her husband never does oral and refuses to learn, and I basically encouraged her to leave him (she was on the fence anyway). That for me would be a dealbreaker.

The porn star, by the way, refuses to do oral too. He's just a friend, not a lover, but he told me that he never does that with girls he dates, and I scolded him that he couldn't really consider himself a proper lover otherwise, porn star or not. He said, "I'm not putting my mouth where some other guy's d--k has been." This from a kid who gets paid to have sex in all manner of degrading ways.

But he is very well-endowed, and actually, the few guys I've dated who weren't really into giving oral were also very well-endowed, so I considered that it was kind of a laziness on their part...that they thought they didn't need to, since a lot of women probably went after them due to their size and they figured their penis alone was enough to please a woman.

Anyway, it's really not too difficult to become an excellent lover if a guy wants to be instructed and won't take things personally. That's assuming the woman knows what she needs, which I guess some don't, but you would have to speak to that.

As far as self deprecation I'm still waiting for Armani to release a "Small dick big wallet" t-shirt. I have designed a similar bumper sticker that will be going on my vette in a few years.

As far as the domestic abuse angle. Predators are looking for girls with low self esteem (or at least shaky), easy to control and manipulate. Wearing a shirt that says bitch and having the associated attitude makes you less attractive to abusers. If you exude the "I don't put up with shit" vibe the abuser will usually look the other way, but only if you actually mean it. Now the derogatory comments like "fat ho" etc. are only indicative of problems if they are one sided. If one partner gets to lambaste the other (especially in public) constantly and the return is a smile or crying that's bad. Now if fat "fat ho" is followed up with "pencil dick pony boner" the relationship is odd but not unhealthy by default.

Thanks Al, and I'm glad to just contribute to the conversation.
Any of the guys I've met who wouldn't give oral, didn't get any from me, because I'm all about fairness. If I was feeling a bit mean, and wanted to make a point, I would give a tiny demonstration, and then say, too bad you'll never get the whole enchalada.
Everyone feels things in their own way, so however people want to define orgasm is their own business.

what's so terrible about this is that the LW boyfriend pretended to have his own place. So the relationship was based on lies and even now he still doesn't seem to be upfront about his financial situation ...and she's still dating him. Honesty really is high up there on my list of a good relationship.

It seems to me that the LW is hoping for someone to tell her it's ok to leave this guy.

I remember an episode on 'Rosanne' years ago that touched on the subject of guys that dont 'go down' quite funny but i didnt think it was something that actually happened until conversations later about the show. I figured they must be closet gay. I remember thinking that it was one of the most bizare things I had ever heard.
Comming from a porn star that is hilarious, but when I think of seeing that in porn i have allways got the feeling that they are trying hard not to actually touch anything.

Al said: I did definately use the b word in the mean, degrading and abusive context.Frugal= scum to me.
If you sent ten people into a bar and GAVE them 100 dollars each, there would allways be 1 or 2 that would sit there all night accepting drinks from everyone, would probably request the most expensive and wouldnt get up to buy a round all night, then at the end of the night as everyone is pooling their last coins for a cab, they would drive off in a taxi leaving the others behind, muttering 'why should I pay for the taxi, they had as much money as me, they are just irresponsible bastards.
There are two ways to be rich, earn a lot of money, or never spend any and soak up everything around you.

Al, you're full of crap.

Most people who are rich are rich not because they soak up everything around them, but because they *DON'T SPEND MONEY STUPIDLY*. Frugal doesn't mean taking drinks from everyone in the bar, then driving off in a taxi. Frugal means not being in a bar in the first place, because it's a whole lot cheaper to buy a case of beer and have a couple of friends over to sit around the back yard. Frugal doesn't mean taking off in a taxi to skip out on the bill. It means driving a ten-year-old car, or walking, or taking public transit, 'cause taxis are expensive. It means a thousand other things, like taking lunch to work because it's cheaper than going to McDonald's, stocking up on staples when they're cheap because 10% saved is even better than 10% earned. It means living with your old CRT television, because a flat screen would be an unnecessary cost -- and for many people, it means not even paying for cable.

It means that if you can't afford to pay cash for something, you don't buy it. It means learning to do more with less. It means shopping yard sales and thrift shops. It means cooking from scratch instead of relying on expensive packaged foods and carry out.

None of this makes a person scum. It makes them smart with money. And spending freely with money you don't have doesn't make you a great guy, it makes you stupid and irresponsible. Not to mention a really bad bet as a partner.

"Most people who are rich are rich not because they soak up everything around them, but because they *DON'T SPEND MONEY STUPIDLY*." No, many rich people spend their money quite stupidly (I hope very much to be one soon). Who the hell needs a vette, farrari, yacht, 4 ct. diamonds, etc. Yet the wealthy buy all this shit and more while many (at the same time) give shit loads of money to charity. So I have to agree with Al, though there are more than 2 ways to get there. Two of the ways to become wealthy, one is making (or inheriting) shit loads of money and not spending it all another is being a mooch. Spending wisely is not a bad idea but prudent and frugal are two different things. Prudent is getting a new energy star 27" TV because it will save you money on electricity (No need to get 110" supper monster). Frugal is using your used toilet paper with news paper and stuff you find on the street to heat your house by burning it in the stove.

Sorry, you're wrong, though some of the difference may have to do with your definition of "rich." Most Americans with a net worth of $1 million or more are self-made. They're generally small business owners, drive older, modest cars, are still married to their original spouse (divorce is expensive!) and live in middle-class neighborhoods. Most have only owned one home.

Perhaps you don't think of $1 million net worth as "rich," and compared to people with yachts, it's not. But it's a helluva lot better than most people ever accumulate, and certainly better than the guy living in the basement is doing.

And what's prudent about spending money on a new television if the old one still works? Personally, I'd rather have real estate.

Neither of you mentioned WORKING as a way to get rich. My ex is extremely frugal - shops at yard sales, buys his clothes at thrift stores, has never owned a "new" car. He's also one of the hardest workers I've ever known, and beginning in his late teens, he began to amass a small fortune through hard work...all while most of his peers were still partying.

But he's also the type who will buy the bar a round of drinks or grab the check before anyone else, so it doesn't mean he's stingy. Dana is right - frugal has nothing to do with stingy.

My ex has a lot of other faults, but I give him credit for his frugality and hard work, and I know a lot of self-made people like him now. As much as we'd like to think all rich people are lazy, trust-fund babies, statistics show that a lot of them are "the millionaires next door", driving the old Buick and shopping at Costco.

Dana, you and I posted at almost the same time...and said a lot of the same things. :-)

No, I mentioned precisely the working hard and being prudent with spending. That's usually the best way to do it. If your not prudent or frugal (I was going by a more popular culture definition of the word which is frugal=stingy=asshole) no matter how much you make you will find a way of spending it. Look at all the washed up rock stars. One big hit and they get millions. A prudent person would clear his debts and set up an investment portfolio and spend a little bit of play money. A frugal person would do the same thing but spend little or nothing on play money. The average Rock star will buy a limo with a jacuzzi in it, certain of his next hit so he/she can buy an even bigger limo with a larger jacuzzi.

"Perhaps you don't think of $1 million net worth as "rich," and compared to people with yachts, it's not. But it's a helluva lot better than most people ever accumulate," BTW are we talking about net worth or are we reffering to liquid assets only? Being a millionaire (at least one million total worth) isn't that hard anymore but the worth of that million isn't as much as it used to be. A good education, stable job and no really bad habits can get you there is 25 years quite easily.

I think the easier it comes to people the more likely they are to spend it fast and foolishly. Rock stars and lottery winners are good examples of this, "easy come, easy go" approach, and many end up banckrupt later.

But we must remember that their foolish spending drives the economy. You can't look at it in isolation. That spending trickles down. I'm seeing it in my line of work, which is property rentals. If nobody buys the big screen TV, then maybe my tenant gets laid off, then he can't pay me. So, whereas I personally save and invest, I say let the the rich fools buy as much as they want.

Al ~~ The "n" word is "nigger". It's too late at night for me to elaborate, and I've been offline for a while because of traveling and am just now catching up, but thought somebody should finally tell you. If I can contribute to this conversation I'll try later, though I think it's all pretty much been said.