Class Half Empty
My wife and I are newlyweds. We went to breakfast, and I ordered coffee, and she said she wanted only water. The waitress kept refilling my coffee. A couple times, my wife took sips. The waitress asked if she wanted coffee, and she declined. The manager also asked politely, "Nothing to drink for the lady, just water?" Later, my wife took another sip. I told her it wasn't proper to keep drinking from my coffee, and she should've ordered her own. Now I'm the bad guy. Her comments before she refused to talk to me at all were that the rudeness was "all in (my) own mind," and, "What are they gonna do, throw us in jail?" and, "You're just criticizing me to put me down." Was I wrong?
--Doghoused
Why not take home the silverware and condiments, and maybe a chair or two? After all, they do say "Let me show you to your seats." And why order food at all? After the guy at the next booth gets up without finishing his breaded veal chop, just reach over and grab it. When the waitress comes around, say, "Thanks, just water for me, and a nice empty plate. Oh, and would you mind heating this up?"
Does the corner diner really need to bring in a legal team to have you sign off on the terms of your breakfast? ("Initial here: Drink refills are per person purchasing a beverage.") Life is filled with unwritten rules, "social norms," that everybody just knows and follows -- which is why, even without signs all over the diner, when nature calls, you don't see some guy striding up to the pastry case, unzipping, and doing his business down the side.
Is a little beverage grifting really such a big deal? You could argue that a $2 cup of coffee sets the restaurant back about 10 cents -- that is, if they give you the dry stuff and you brew it over a fire and drink it on a park bench from a cup you pulled out of the garbage. The restaurant owner's got a right to charge $65 a cup if he wants, and if you've got a problem with that, well, collect some cockroaches, hire a busboy, and yell "eggseasytoastbacon!" at home.
Don't let the big grown-up girlparts fool you; your wife, like all of us, is basically a large, easily wounded child. This means being right isn't enough: You have to communicate your rightness without putting her on the defensive. An emotional appeal is wisest, per 18th century economist Adam Smith, who wrote that sympathy motivates people to put others' interests before their own. So, instead of telling her she's wrong, tell her you feel bad, like you look like a total cheapwad, and worry aloud that the waitress, who's tipped on the total of the bill, will feel ripped off. Another emotional appeal might be in order to break your wife of her hit-and-run method of conflict resolution: You're dumb. You're wrong. You're mean. Conversation over. Oh, and could you pass the cream?
Since you're only now discovering how your wife takes her coffee -- without paying for it -- you might explore whether her ethics in general hinge on whether jail time would be involved. While mystery is essential to romance, that's not supposed to mean agonizing over whether your wife will end up in bed with the neighbor or just stand at the salad bar eating out of all the containers until she spots the SWAT team gathering at the supermarket doors.








Another thing he could have done was gone ahead and order that second cup of coffee for "himself" since she drank half of what he thought he had in way of coffee anyhow.
Too bad he found out too late but I'm wondering about that. Did he never take her out for a cup of coffee before they wed? Or did she wait until she had him trapped before she sprung the cheap on him? Man, I'd be watching my back if I were him.
T's Grammy at September 3, 2008 3:56 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, Caspar Milquetoast is in the house!!! This guy simply needs to grow a pair.
As a former waitress/ bartender, I can say the waitress probably didn't appreciate the extra running she had to do to fill one coffee cup twice as often as two coffee cups, and then have the check shortened the price of that cup of coffee that she delivered on continually. Then again, this woman probably thought tipping wasn't really necessary either, so any appeal to her sensibilities about tipping on the entire bill would probably get ignored.
I recommend the movie "Waiting". It's incredibly crude and disgusting, but it gets the point across. Just because someone is in the service industry, doesn't mean you get to treat them as a lower form of life and crap all over them. Especially over a cup of coffee.
On the flip side, this woman revealed something about her character rather cheaply. I hope her husband realizes what he's in for.
juliana at September 3, 2008 4:43 AM
I don't think this is an issue of her being cheap. I'm cheap (I don't even need to dress it up as "frugal"), but I don't take things that aren't mine. That's being a thief, regardless of the value of what is taken. Sure, if I pay for a meal, I will take the remainder home to enjoy as another meal or snack. But I don't steal sugar packets or napkins or fill my take-home box to the salad bar or otherwise get something for nothing. Being cheap means differentiating wants from needs and setting spending priorities. It doesn't mean never paying for anything, it just means consciously deciding what to buy. (Why, no, this isn't a hot button issue for me at all. Why do you ask?!)
MonicaM at September 3, 2008 5:58 AM
MonicaM, you've got it right. When my girls were little, and we'd be out at a restaurant, it'd be one thing to give one a sip or two of my coffee or tea or whatever, but if they wanted more than that, I would always order another cup, and let them finish what I had started out with. It's just common courtesy. I would never think of taking sips of BF's coffee; that's beyond cheap, that's over-inflated-sense-of-entitlement. Besides, he'd smack my hand (albeit lightly) and tell me "get your own!" o_O
Flynne at September 3, 2008 6:57 AM
Being cheap means differentiating wants from needs and setting spending priorities. It doesn't mean never paying for anything, it just means consciously deciding what to buy.
Absolutely! How much misery could be prevented if people just realized that if their date is a sweetheart to them, but rude to the waiter, that makes them not a nice person!
That said, given the paucity of info in the letter, we've got two possibilities. One is that the new wife is clueless, but educable that what she was doing was rude. The other is that she's NOT clueless, but is defiant and has a sense of entitlement.
I'd agree with Amy that a non-confrontational way of dealing with this is the most effective route to take. But if she's such a wounded child inside that this is the only way to address her anytime something goes wrong, then that's gonna get old quickly.
Quizzical at September 3, 2008 7:09 AM
Well said MonicaM! There is certainly a distinct difference between frugality and a sense of entitlement. Unfortunately it seems the LW's wife, as so many people today, have this sense that they deserve more than the next guy. Well, honey, if you cured cancer, I'd think about it. Until then buy your own coffee for god's sake!
Also, the whole "wounded child" thing: dear lord. This woman clearly needs to grow up and get a clue. The LW shouldn't be expected to play games just to make her understand that what she's doing is unacceptable. A grown woman acting like a child is just pathetic!
Serafina at September 3, 2008 7:25 AM
"Her comments before she refused to talk to me at all..."
To me, this is the scariest part of the whole mess. If this is how she handles differences, I feel really sorry for this guy.
Steamer at September 3, 2008 7:57 AM
The waitrix should've invited Miss Sippy Cup out to the Waffle House parking lot for a little rasslin' match to settle the score and had hubby pass the hat.
Little Shiva at September 3, 2008 8:15 AM
Umm....has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, this is A LOT of drama over a few sips of coffee?? Seriously...his account of a "few sips of coffee" has you people judging her character?? Wow - has he just found out that she is this cheap? How could she treat the waitress like this!!??? "I'd watch my back if I were him"???!!! "I hope her husband realizes what he's in for"??!!! What the fuck??? Did I miss a paragraph where she revealed she was a pedophile or something?
SHE TOOK A FEW SIPS OF HIS COFFEE!!! On the grand scheme of things, this is barely a blip on the radar!! It's not like she's, oh, I don't know...JUDGING AN ENTIRE PERSON BASED ON 1 SMALL, SECONDHAND ACCOUNT of a...coffee sipping!?!?! Let's get a grip here!! Especially seeing as coffee is usually free with the purchase of a meal. The writer mentions nothing about the food they ordered...and I will assume they did order something (if we take that assumption away then he is writing that they went for "breakfast" and all he ordered was coffee)
I think the problem here is the hubby - why all of a sudden, after dating and marriage, is a coffee sip such a huge problem that he feels the need to reprimand her? I am sure over their first date he thought it was cute that she declined dessert but took a bite or two of his cheesecake...so the problem now is his perception, not her behavior.
Say What? at September 3, 2008 8:17 AM
Umm....has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, this is A LOT of drama over a few sips of coffee?? Seriously...his account of a "few sips of coffee" has you people judging her character?? Wow - has he just found out that she is this cheap? How could she treat the waitress like this!!??? "I'd watch my back if I were him"???!!! "I hope her husband realizes what he's in for"??!!! What the fuck???
Say What?: At first glance at the letter, I was to your way of thinking. That is, a few sips is nothing, and maybe this guy was being really nit-picky and critical about it. And I thought that if this is the kind of situation that they can't fix between them, then they're in trouble already. Then I read it again, and saw how both the manager and the waitress did things that seemed to be commenting on the two of them drinking out of the same cup. If that's an accurate assessment, then maybe the husband's observations are a bit more on target, since those two also seem to have noticed it. It's still possible that he was making a mountain out of a molehill, but given what sounds like her immature, overblown response to the situation, I worry about her maturity. True, this is ultimately a small matter, but it does matter. It's an issue of degree, not of kind. I mean, if it were me who was sipping out of my husband's cup, I'd likely note the waitress and manager's reactions and get my own cup. And if I were preoccupied and didn't notice, then, when my husband brought it up to me later, I'd be thinking "yeah, you're right! I didn't realize." I wouldn't be digging in my heels, and then refusing to talk to my husband.
Quizzical at September 3, 2008 8:38 AM
"Umm....has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, this is A LOT of drama over a few sips of coffee??"
It was enough that both the waitress and the manager asked if she would like to order her own. If the manager gets involved, it's usually fairly significant. I'd say the LW was downplaying the issue, though it seems counterproductive.
"Let's get a grip here!! Especially seeing as coffee is usually free with the purchase of a meal."
I don't know any restaurants that include coffee at no charge. Usually they will offer free refills, but not waive the original charge.
Besides, it's not like the cost of the coffee is going to be that much after paying for the meal. I agree with the comment above that he should have just ordered a second cup so they could both have one, or, if she wanted to keep sharing his, then that's fine, but at least they wouldn't have been stealing from the restaurant.
WayneB at September 3, 2008 8:42 AM
The last two commenters are getting at the heart of the matter - the waitress and the MANAGER are making pointed comments to this couple. The wife is putting her husband in an awkward and embarrassing situation, and she's completely oblivious to it. I don't know if husband communicated this to her: "Honey, when the manager came out and spoke to us like that, I felt like sinking through the floor". maybe it would have helped explain things, maybe not. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that wife is one of those self-absorbed people who would completely miss the point. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but my ex was like that...just sayin'...
todthemod at September 3, 2008 9:46 AM
Sorry folks - waitresses and floor managers don't give a crap if some woman takes a few sips of coffee from someone elses cup. Do you not think it's possible that the waitress was kindly asking, just in case the woman had changed her mind? And perhaps the manager was concerned that the WAITRESS had no done her job...and that's why HE wandered by??? Honestly - I often don't want an entire dessert for myself and choose to share one with my dinner companion. There has never been a waitress or manager take exception to that!!! Nor have I ever been bothered when I sip from a friends drink (if she is trying something new and offers)...
You have all still failed to prove that your judgement is fitting...
Wayne - I don't know about where you go for breakfast, but I have a weekend tradition of Saturday breakfast. EVERY restaurant I go to includes coffee with the meal. Sure - if you order a simple toast you pay for coffee. If you order 2 eggs, bacon, etc...coffee is always included. And refills.
My guess? This guy was miffed for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the coffee incident but used this as a way to let out his frustrations. I would put money on the theory that he wasn't very nice about it either...which, as Amy stated, doesn't really put the criticized person in the best frame of mind!!!
Say What? at September 3, 2008 11:34 AM
I would be fucking mortified if my partner started sipping off my beverage while we were out. Forget about how the waitress and manager felt about it - I would have the urge to crawl away as quickly and quietly as possible.
Thank gods that my partner would probably be more embarrassed than me, in such a situation.
DuWayne at September 3, 2008 11:58 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/class-half-empt.html#comment-1586972">comment from DuWayneMy boyfriend would be similarly horrified. I hear about it whenever he spots somebody walking around the supermarket eating salad bar food or snacking out of the bins. You buy a cup of coffee, YOU get refills. Your wife wants coffee, she gets her own cup.
I don't know about you, but I hate feeling ripped off, no matter how small the ripoff. I bought earrings on eBay, and one turned out to be missing a bead, making one shorter than the other. Grrrr. I wrote to the lady and asked her if she'd noticed this. She was horrified and said she'd refund my entire purchase price, plus shipping. No need. That's all I needed to hear. I suggested she toss me back a dollar in PayPal...just needed to know it wasn't intentional. And stand-up lady, guess what: she gave me $3.50.
All in all, a dollar, or the probably $10 or $11 I'd paid for the earrings isn't going to break me, but it seems we have modules hard-wired in us for cheater detection, and this sort of thing is bound to make the waitress and manager feel ripped off...whereas whatever the price of the tip (what, 15-20 cents) on a cup of coffee is surely isn't going to be be a big deal to the waitress if it's disconnected from the emotional issue of being screwed.
Amy Alkon
at September 3, 2008 12:07 PM
Are we still talking about coffee? Man...even religous people aren't this rigid in their judgement of complete strangers of whom a short blurb has been written about!!
People - the waitress doesn't care!!! The manager doesn't care either! If you don't believe me, take an opinion poll. The next time you are in a restaurant, ask your waitress how she would feel if someone at your table took "a few sips" of your beverage (I am using the writers words, so you should as well). Ask the manager after that...see if he/she would become involved in this great travesty!!!
The only person who cared was he writer!! And he tried to PASS THE FEELING to someone else! And you guys are falling for it!! This guy did not want to admit to his feelings so he tried to use the manager and waitress to justify himself. I am sure if he had just said "I don't like that, would you mind if we got you your own cup?" things would have gone MUCH smoother...!!! But no - he is trying to say that the MANAGER and the WAITRESS were insulted and that she was doing something BAD and ILLEGAL!! That is not only FAR from the truth it is sooooo passive-aggressive it makes my head hurt!!
Say What? at September 3, 2008 12:20 PM
Say What -
I hate to break it to you, but I have worked in a few restaurants and in every one of them this would have been a problem. The waitress probably was concerned because she's required to report, even if she doesn't care and the same is likely true of the manager (if he wasn't also the owner).
Go into a Denny's, for example, and try that. I can damn near promise that no one working in that particular location probably cares in the least about it. That doesn't mean that they won't do something about it. Anywhere from the most common, passive agressively just tacking a second cup onto the bill, to flat out telling the customer that they need to order another cup of coffee.
And no matter how minor a crime it might be, it's still fucking theft. Not to mention it's fucking embarrassing for the new hubby. And it would be for me too. I may not have a lot, but if I go out for a meal, I expect to pay for all of it.
DuWayne at September 3, 2008 1:09 PM
There is a big difference between sharing a desert and sharing a drink that comes with free refills.
The desert is one item, bought and paid for. The coffee or pop continues to be refilled. If everyone is sharing from the same cup, that's more refills. If he had bought a beer and agreed to share it...so what. It's the fact that it's bottomless that's at issue here.
I have had sips of other people's drinks -- say they buy a cool martini -- and I'm trying to decide if I'd like to order that or stick with something else. That's a whole different cup of coffee!
moreta at September 3, 2008 2:56 PM
Poor DogHouse:
In the grand scheme of things its a pretty small problem for the restaurant. Having said that its a little cheap and tacky to (a) keep sipping from your husband's coffee when both he and the restaurant staff are clearly bothered by the behaviour, and (b) to get on your high horse with your husband and stop speaking to him.
Dog, you could have done one of several things: removed your cup from her reach, ordered her a cup of her own, or left a bigger-than-usual tip (or paid for a second cup) as an apology. Of course any of these actions would also have ended up with you in shit, because I think, based on your letter, that you've married a petulant and childish person. I also think, because you've taken the step of writing to Amy about it, that you also suspect your new wife is petulant and childish.
Good luck with that.
catspajamas at September 3, 2008 3:00 PM
Marriage involves some little arguments masking the bigger issues. This is pretty typical, in my married experience. It is just a dumb cup of coffee, but it's also a bigger problem.
The hard part for the married person in the fight is to sit down and really figure out what was the bigger issue hidden in that silly cup of coffee.
Here, I think his new wife is acting childish and she also offended his values, without meaning to. That's what a new marriage is all about. Sex, and finding out all about someone else's value system and angry buttons (usually the hard way). Oh, and making lots of dumb mistakes you cannot un-do or un-say with your relationship can be involved too. There is this myth out there that somehow if you are married and love each other that it'll all work out. At those happily-ever-after movies, they don't mention that you have to try harder than ever to behave and honor the relationship or it will end up bitter and sucky.
Her childish behavior should not continue, and she is at fault for that. But new husbands are known for their inability to tread gently. He probably offended her too when he bluntly called her on what was bothering him. They both have a ways to go in communication skills, I suspect. Usually childish people are a matched set. It takes two to create and continue an argument like this. The advice Amy gave about trying to go gently and build some trust between them was good advice. If he can offer the olive branch, and if she can see how much her silent treatment huts him, she might realize how stupid she behaved and try to trust him next time.
JenniferS at September 3, 2008 3:11 PM
Are there really, really that many passive aggresives out there??
CatsPJs, the mature, adult way to confront someone who is doing something you don't like is to simply say to them "I don't like that". There is no need to be passive aggresive and pull the cup away (you are sending a message and hoping they understand rather than actually communicating). If hubby wanted his own coffee, without sharing, he could simply say "sweetie, why don't you get your own coffee...I would really like all of mine". It's direct and shows exactly what HE wants from his drink.
DuWayne - I disagree with you completely!! I have also worked in many restaurants and have known the owners of just as many. As a graduate student in sociology I would be more than happy to arrange an experiment!! Care to wager?
Say What? at September 3, 2008 3:24 PM
So, Say What, let me get this straight: you think that coffee is "free"? You only care about something if others notice? Or does it have to be a big deal only to you in order to matter or be a question of ethics?
Do this in front of your kids, and you show them it's OK to cheat. What's a few % on a test, a Coke from the convenience store or WalMart. "They" have big pockets and they won't miss it, so it's OK?
Hey, nothing is free. The rest of the patrons - and, ironically, you, in the price of everything in the café - paid for that.
Radwaste at September 3, 2008 3:30 PM
Say What? @12:20PM:
Read your first paragraph: Man...even religous people aren't this rigid in their judgement of complete strangers of whom a short blurb has been written about!!
Now read your second and third paragraphs.
Notice something?
todthemod at September 3, 2008 6:00 PM
Radwaste:
Please show me the legal disclaimer that says that "free refills" must be consumed by the person who pays for the coffee and I will see a LEGAL reason for you. Other than that it is just a debate on how you "feel" about it...in which case no, I don't see a problem with taking a few sips from someone elses coffee (assuming the other person is ok with that). If you can provide me with the documentation that the restaurant has provided, in advance of the purchase of the drink, clearly indicating the full conditions of the "free refills" clause and said documentation states that the purchaser of the beverage is the only one that is allowed to consume the beverage, then I will agree that there has been a breech of contract here.
The wife removed some coffee from the husbands cup. Assuming he is the one paying for the coffee, she has "stolen" from HIM - not the restaurant. If the wife is paying for the meal then she is entitled to all of the coffee and the refills and he is stealing from HER.
The restaurant only claims to provide "free refills". If the husband decided to pour it down the sink, that is HIS choice as the consumer. The restaurant makes no claims as to how the consumer may treat the beverage. It has only promised to refill the beverage in an unlimited manner.
So back to my original claim - this is a problem between the HUSBAND and WIFE!!! The coffee was paid for and the restaurant makes no legal case for theft (as they do not make any conditions as to how the beverage is to be treated in order to have it refilled). The HUSBAND did not want his wife to drink his coffee but did not OWN that feeling. The WIFE was AMBIVILENT about the coffee (she said no to coffee, yet drank his). Neither one of them actually COMMUNICATED properly!! And THAT is the problem here...not some stupid issue of the "theft" of a few SIPS of coffee!!!!
These 2 do not communicate and he, in particular has totally repressed how he actually feels and projects those feelings onto complete strangers.
Say What? at September 3, 2008 6:01 PM
"Now read your second and third paragraphs. Notice something"
Tod - no. You will have to express yourself a little better.
Are you insinuating judgement on my part? When I say "Ask them", as in "please go and seek out answers on your own and investigate your opinions". Do you feel this is "judgement"??
Or when I indicate that a certain behaivor is "passive aggresive"?? That is not judgement.
By "judgement" i am referring to the fact that people are saying thing like "Beware of this woman" and "I feel sorry for this guy" because his wife...took a few sips....of his coffee. Wow...it just seems like a very, very, very, very rigid view of the wife. In one sentence these people have come up with this judgement. Harsh...but hey - if you feel it's reasonable to wish this guy luck because of this horrible, horrible thing that has been done to him, by this nasty, bitch of a woman...then go right ahead. I just think it's...harsh and judgmental.
Say What? at September 3, 2008 6:10 PM
Just a reminder, Amy is an advice columnist, generally providing advice about relationships. Blog comments are just an open forum to discuss these little things, not a court of law. And they are fun and you can learn somthing. I love the wit an humor, especially so when someone gets their panties all up in a wad.
Based on the information we see in the letter, the woman is just a jackass. Doesn't think she has to buy coffee, and won't discuss it with her new husband? Not only a jackass, but a passive-aggressive bitch.
Of course that's just an observation based on the LW's perspective. If she wrote the letter, it would be from her perspective, and we'd probably be saying the guy is an anal retentive asshole, and perhaps the MF word.
This is funny stuff.
Just remember there are three sides to the relationship argument: his side, her side, and the truth. And that's not counting the waiter and manager's side.
Personally, I think you should pay for your coffee, and not act as though you are entitled to it.
If you want to catch up on fun p/a stuff, check out passive dash aggessive dot com, a site I learned from Amy's blog and love to visit now and again.
Sterling at September 3, 2008 8:33 PM
Say What?:
You are correct in your interpretation of my comments - very perceptive of you (and that is a judgement on my part). Yes it was a cheap shot, but sometimes I can't resist 'em. If I seem prejudiced towards the husband, I probably am. As I mentioned before, I had an ex who indulged in this sort of bullshit. If I told her that I didn't like it, she would dismiss my complaint as trivial, respond with an angry outburst, or would give me the silent treatment. The husband's account sounded awfully familiar.
I kind of agree with Sterling above...and I do apologize for the cheap shot.
todthemod at September 3, 2008 9:05 PM
I think there are really two issues here:
1) Was the wife's behavior rude because it was essentially stealing?
and
2) Did the restaurant care?
As far as issue #1 goes, I can see how her behavior constitutes stealing - I understand why everyone sees it that way, since she did, technically, steal a few sips from her husband's cup. But I don't think we have enough evidence on which to convict her of being selfish, childish, cheap, or a theif. She might be a cheap theif. She might also be oblivious, or she might be watching her caffeine intake and in denial about her coffee habit, or she might have even thought she was displaying closeness with her new husband by drinking out of the same cup as him. We don't know. What we do know is that she took, in his words, just several sips, and we do know that he reprimanded her for it. To me, that introduces at least a 50% possibility that the problem is him.
As for issue #2: I don't know for sure if that particular waitress and manager were concerned about the theft of a few sips of coffee, or if they were merely asking to be polite, but my gut goes with polite. I too have worked in many restaurants, and I personally don't think I would have ever gotten mad about the coffee issue, because the net worth of the amount of coffee she potentially "stole" would be so small, it would not significantly affect the bill, and therefore would not significantly affect my tip. Same line of thinking would go for the manager - could her behavior be interpreted as stealing? Yes. Is the amount of money she is potentially stealing from the restaurant worth any fuss? No. 1 pot of coffee probably costs about 20 cents to make, if you figure that 1 bag of beans costs 5 dollars, and 1 bag of ground beans probably makes at least 25 pots. If she drank just a few sips out of one cup, and a few sips amounts to 1/10th of a pot, then at most she drank 2 cents worth of stolen coffee.
Of course, it's possible that the waitress and the manager were offended based on principle, not on actual money lost, but - and again, this is just my own experience with the restaurant industry - I never had a manger who spent time standing on principle or arguing moral issues. They were always all about the bottom line. They were also usually far too BUSY to even notice things like petty coffee theft.
Not to mention the fact that, as a restaurant, you pretty much sign up for this behavior when you introduce the "bottomless cup". Some people will pay for the bottomless cup and only DRINK one cup - thereby saving you money. Other people will buy the cup and drink the pot. It's just the cost of doing business. I bet the manager would see the wife's coffee-sipping in the same light.
Jessi at September 3, 2008 9:08 PM
This isn't so much about money as it is about behaviour, and the wife knew it. How else to explain her overreaction: "What are they going to do, send us to jail?" followed by the silent treatment.
Class Half Empty sums it up.
Say What: "CatsPJs, the mature, adult way to confront someone who is doing something you don't like is to simply say to them "I don't like that"." He wrote, "I told her it wasn't proper to keep drinking from my coffee, and she should've ordered her own." Yep, sounds like she reacts well to the non-passive-aggressive approach.
catspajamas at September 3, 2008 9:43 PM
My sympathy is with the LW for the most part, especially since his wife evidently responds to conflict with anger and the silent treatment. [Say What?, I think that's the real reason people have been saying things like "I feel sorry for this guy", not the fact that she sipped from his cup.]
But (in reference to catspajamas' point), there is a world of difference between saying "I don't like that, it makes me uncomfortable" and saying "It isn't proper to do that." One is being direct and non-passive-aggressive, but the other comes across as a patronizing lecture. If LW makes a habit of being direct in that way, he's probably causing some relationship problems of his own, unless his wife is a saint, which she clearly is not.
The Other Lily at September 4, 2008 7:53 AM
I've read most of the comments from both sides of the argument, and I thought it might be important to point out that I've read this advice letter before. I had to stop myself while reading it for a moment because I've seen the exact same letter written in to either "dear Abby" or "dear Margo." Unfortunately I cannot remember which columnist it was written to, or on what date, and though I skimmed through some of the older columns, I didn't find it, so I cannot link it at the moment. I just thought it might be interesting information for some of you who are suggesting that the LW is over reacting and trying to justify his side of the argument. At first I really thought his wife was the problem, and she very well may be a problem, but I also have to confess that I believe the husband is just as much of a problem. Probably in a different way, but still it seems he is fishing for backup to a stupid argument that most likely shouldn't exist in a "SEE they all agree with ME!!" sort of way.
Ann at September 4, 2008 8:15 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/class-half-empt.html#comment-1587219">comment from AnnI had to stop myself while reading it for a moment because I've seen the exact same letter written in to either "dear Abby" or "dear Margo."
Without reading it, I can guarantee you they didn't answer it with a reference to Adam Smith. Robert H. Frank builds on Smith's work on emotions as motivators in Passions Within Reason.
Amy Alkon
at September 4, 2008 10:17 AM
No, I don't think they did reference anyone, whichever columnist it was. It could even have been on "Annie's Mailbox," but I don't think so because I don't read those often. I acutally don't remember the response at all. I just know that I've seen this letter in another advice column. I read them from time to time. I admit I was pretty surprised to see the same letter pop up in your column that had appeared in one of those others. If the LW reads your blog or your columns on any kind of regular basis I doubt he could have expected any other kind of response from you than the one you gave. Which is why I sort of think he's trying to prove to his wife that she is the one who is wrong by getting as many people he can to agree with his side of the story. I wouldn't think there are many people who would disagree with him, but seeing him ask for verification of his correct opinion more than once, to different columnists makes me wonder about him.
Ann at September 4, 2008 11:14 AM
In all fairness, he may have done a simultaneous submission to several columnists just to increase the odds that he'd get a reply from at least one. How long ago did you see the other letter?
The Other Lily at September 4, 2008 12:02 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/class-half-empt.html#comment-1587260">comment from The Other LilyWhile I've been a bit behind in my mail lately thanks to the onslaught of the Sadly Pathetics (the so-called "progressives") attacking my website, I usually answer all my mail pretty soon after getting it -- whether or not it will make my column. I think I answered this for a column I wrote about a month ago. Of course, it's possible I had the letter for a while -- I think I might've -- before answered it for the column. Will see if I can find it.
Amy Alkon
at September 4, 2008 12:17 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/class-half-empt.html#comment-1587261">comment from Amy AlkonOkay, I got the guy's question 6/28/08 and answered it 14 minutes after it hit my e-mail box!
Amy Alkon
at September 4, 2008 12:19 PM
The Other Lily, you have a very good point, and I feel really silly for not thinking of that until you pointed it out.
Ann at September 4, 2008 12:57 PM
You know, this letter looks pretty familiar to me, too. I thought it might have been published in Dear Prudence on Slate, but I've just been through the archives and didn't find it. Maybe Miss Manners? I'll look for it... bored anyway.
ahw at September 4, 2008 1:11 PM
Impressive turnaround, Amy! I'll have to remember that next time I need to ask for advice. ;-)
(Of course, since I read you regularly, I can probably come up with a pretty good guess as to how you would answer anyway.)
Who is attacking you this time, and why?
The Other Lily at September 4, 2008 1:35 PM
Say What?, I believe the husband wrote the letter after the issue escalating to the wife giving him the silent treatment, which is wrong, so wrong. Newlyweds, and she is already being that manipulative...not a good sign, he probably feels that he's in over his head. I'd bet she didn't treat him like this till she had the ring on.
As for your 'it's only a little so it's not stealing', I'm afraid I can't agree with you. The fact that the waitress and manager spoke to her makes me wonder if it doesn't happen a lot, and they are on the losing end. A dime or a grand, taking something that doesn't belong to you, or taking advantage of people's generosity is wrong.
Not to mention that it's tacky as hell, no class whatsoever.
crella at September 4, 2008 1:49 PM
I like what Ann was saying about" "SEE they all agree with ME!!" I was a waitress for years, and I might have laughed quietly in the back at the cheap bitch on tabel four; but, I never would have said something to her in an attempt to indicate she should purchase a cup. I mean, get real! Waitresses work for the gratuity of other people. Why waste my chances for a decent tip?
kg at September 4, 2008 1:54 PM
I regularly read 'Dear Abby' and 'Dear Margo' just as I do with Amy's column (and other advice columns as well - kind of aid on my profession). I really can't remember this submission ever being made in any other column, for the last three years or so. I don't think it's fair to judge the LW because of something he 'may have done', but nobody's sure if he really did.
As for the problem itself, I think it is a small issue taken out of proportion by 1) an overly sensitive, tacky wife who can't stand critic, and 2) a husband who could use some assertiveness skills. Although sometimes it is difficult for me to understand Amy's rhetoric (English is not my first language), I believe this time her advice basically goes in that direction. Please correct me if I'm wrong...
(and sorry for any misspelling and/or grammar mistakes. As I said, English is not my first language. In fact, it is not even the second one, hehe).
Lourdesv at September 4, 2008 1:54 PM
Well, I can't find the letter in the other columns I read, but...
Just because you're not going to get arrested for something doesn't mean it's OK to do it. The situation is a bit like going to a buffett with another person, only ordering a water, and then eating off of the other person's plate. Not the same degree of tackiness, but it's in the same category. Restaurants make their money by selling food and drink, and if everyone did this type of thing, it would add up to substantial losses for the restaurant. On the other hand, there's something to be said for choosing your battles.
ahw at September 4, 2008 2:51 PM
"Radwaste:
Please show me the legal disclaimer that says that "free refills" must be consumed by the person who pays for the coffee and I will see a LEGAL reason for you. Other than that it is just a debate on how you "feel" about it...in which case no, I don't see a problem with taking a few sips from someone elses coffee (assuming the other person is ok with that). If you can provide me with the documentation that the restaurant has provided, in advance of the purchase of the drink, clearly indicating the full conditions of the "free refills" clause and said documentation states that the purchaser of the beverage is the only one that is allowed to consume the beverage, then I will agree that there has been a breech of contract here."
You've gone to a lot of trouble, including the employment of a straw man, to defend simple mooching. I suggest that you are habitually unethical, and frequently hide behind the letter of law as if it applies. I further suggest that this sort of behavior is the reason America is brimming with legislation aimed at forcing courteous behavior from boors.
To address law, briefly - and I think that you do not actually know this - a crime is actually an action in violation of a statute. No more, no less. As such, the law must be specific. For example, if there were a law, with penalties, for handing your tea to someone else, the same act would be totally legal for any substance which was not tea. Or, which simply did not meet the definition of "tea" in the statute.
My point stands: restaurants set up their service based on costs. Mooch, raise the cost, and you raise the price, period. There's your reward. Thanks a lot.
Radwaste at September 4, 2008 3:04 PM
Talk is cheap, and he used his cheaply. A simple action would have been much better. Simply order another cup for yourself (without asking her), give the old one to her politely and kindly, and done is done. He's got his own cup, she has as much coffee as she wants without having to ask for it, and she realizes that her actions are reciprocated by his actions, and not his pouting.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing should happen on a first or second date, not as newleyweds.
kasaoka at September 4, 2008 4:40 PM
I thought the letter looked familiar too, but I do believe it was still an Advice Goddess column. If you search around, you can find Amy's columns as part of the on-line archive of several of the newspapers who actually pay her. While we get a new-to-us column here every Wednesday, I'm guessing its not the latest one that newspaper subscribers are seeing. That would be a silly business plan!!
moreta at September 4, 2008 5:38 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/class-half-empt.html#comment-1587355">comment from moretaWise, Moreta. I actually put them up about a month after I transmit them, and about two weeks after the latest papers run them.
Amy Alkon
at September 4, 2008 6:36 PM
Any idea how long they knew each other before they got married? From the sounds of things, I'll bet they got married extremely fast. Maybe they met just before he got sent off to the war zone, and now that he's back, they're both realizing that they're total strangers to each other. They're probably both quite young too, maybe 19, because this situation is pretty idiotic to fight over, and their reactions on both sides are immature.
Chrissy at September 6, 2008 8:50 AM
Say What? writes:
On the subject of drama, we're talking about a person who probably isn't here reading this blog. If she is, she can get over it. I'm seeing an incredible amount of irony in you taking us to task for what you perceive as overreacting. Uh, hello? Pot? Kettle?
We're looking at a situation that was presented in a column and commenting on it. We're not driving over to her house, sharpening our fingers at her and hiring a tatoo artist to print "La Cheapa" on her forehead. Take a Lithium, dude.
Patrick at September 7, 2008 3:58 PM
I'm reminded of a ploy that a waitress friend of mine told me about. At a restaurant where she worked, customers would ask for water with extra lemon. When the water arrived, they would squeeze out the lemon and add the sugar. Free lemonade. Or they could use Equal and make free diet lemonade. That's so cheap. If my date did that, I'd be so mortified, I'd politely excuse myself and leave.
Patrick at September 7, 2008 4:06 PM
I'm reminded of a ploy that a waitress friend of mine told me about. At a restaurant where she worked, customers would ask for water with extra lemon. When the water arrived, they would squeeze out the lemon and add the sugar. Free lemonade. Or they could use Equal and make free diet lemonade. That's so cheap. If my date did that, I'd be so mortified, I'd politely excuse myself and leave.
Is that really so awful? Suppose the person doesn't want either calories or caffeine -- how many restaurants have options for that? They're pretty much limited to water. Now, if they'd enjoy that water more with lemon and Equal, what's the harm?
The Other Lily at September 8, 2008 9:16 AM
Lemonade is not caffeinated and her restaurant offered diet lemonade. As for it being awful, I guess it depends on your perspective. Personally, I wouldn't like the idea of watching my date squeezing wedge after wedge after wedge of lemon into his drinking glass of water, then dumping in multiple sugar packets and stirring the five minutes or so it would take for the sugar to dissolve, gleeful over have deprived the restaurant of the mere chump change it would have cost simply to order a glass of lemonade.
Patrick at September 8, 2008 10:50 PM
Have to agree with Patrick on that one! If I ever went out with someone that cheap, I'd only make that mistake once.
T's Grammy at September 9, 2008 5:03 AM
If the restaurant offered diet lemonade, and/or if the person doing this were visibly "gleeful" over the small savings, then I would have to agree as well.
Just pointing out that there are circumstances where people to exactly this for other reasons than cheapness.
The Other Lily at September 9, 2008 10:00 AM
Wow, I should have come back a few more times after I didn't see any more responses the first day.
Probably too late now, but since Say What asked, I generally eat at establishments where the price of a breakfast is under $10.
Regarding whether the waitress or the manager care - waitresses and managers, especially at lower-priced establishments, are frequently under pressure to minimize food costs and maximize revenue, because the restaurant is operating close to the profitability line. Sharing anything that gets refilled is going to cut down that profitability. In this case, from the restaurant's point of view, it's not so much the money LOST, but more the money NOT ACQUIRED.
Again, however, I would say the new husband did not handle this well, and when the waitress asked, he should have ordered another coffee, but declined a cup, and told the waitress that they would share.
WayneB at September 11, 2008 10:20 AM
Okay, I don't know if anyone commented about this or not, so here goes.
Let's say hubby ordered all-you-can eat salad bar for himself ... let's say $5 for 1 person. Then, childish wifey takes "nibbles" off his salad plate every time he fills it up. In reality, they are now eating all-you-can-eat for TWO people, but only expect to get charged for 1 order. Sure, a few sips of coffee is much cheaper than a plate of salad, but it is still an item that each person is supposed to order on their own.
When we go out, I order my own coffee at the end of the meal, but I don't generally order a soda since I can't even drink a small portion of it on my own. Instead, I'll take 2 or 3 small sips of my husband's. We tell the waitress ahead of time, she asks if I'm sure, I say yes, and that's the end of it. If refills are included, they generally get served long before the glass is empty, so my couple of sips don't make a difference. However, if the restaurant frowned on this (as the waitress and manager coming to the table obviously suggests), then I would order my own soda, lemonade, or whatever.
The wife here is either extremely cheap, or she's the horrid type who is always trying to get away with something. The hubby wrote in wondering if he did wrong since his wife is so upset ... much like a spoiled child when told "no". The only thing hubby did wrong was not insisting that she get her own cup. The baby wife needs to grow up and realize that, in affect, her actions ARE theft.
Franki at October 17, 2008 8:18 PM
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