You are right about those Army men. Because my husband soent time as a single soldier in the barracks and was required to keep his room clean to a certain standard, he helps with the chores around the house. But, there are some guys who just grew up around a mess and simply see nothing wrong with it. She might have one of those here.

Laugh all you want about gender differences but this is absolutely one of the reasons I could not live with my daughter -- she's a disgusting slob and I'm fairly neat.

Mind you, I'm not a neat freak and she's not quite (close but not quite) Oscar Madison. Add my arthritis (making it hard for me to step over/around the trash heaps) to the mix and we had a recipe to disaster. She's actually improved somewhat since I moved out (and there isn't anyone gonna pick up after her when it gets so bad they can't take it) and I'm comfortable enough that I just smile knowingly when she says wow, your place is so neat and say, you know that's what like happens when you pick up after yourself.

When I was sick recently and things slid a bit (meaning there was dust and the carpet needed vacuuming), it actually worried her enough to clean my place. To my shock, she did a great a job! So she has the capability which must only mean living in the city dump just doesn't bother her the way it sickens and disgusts me.

Sounds like the LW has the same dilemma. She sees the benefits in living with this person she loves and is trying to force it to work for that dream. What she needs to do is realize that it is a fantasy. Only on TV do Felix Unger and Oscar Madison live in harmony enough to abide each other. Living together will only kill the relationship if this continues to be a conflict with them. LAT's may be the only way to keep their love alive and unless they're planning children (possibly but a bit doubtful at her age), there's no reason they need to cohabitate.

I can see where the LW is coming from, but only she can decide if it's a deal-breaker for her. BF is fairly neat, most of the time. He does all the yardwork, he does laundry, and he'll do dishes once in a while. But all bets are off during hunting season! Yes, he does wash and dry all his hunting gear, but from September to January, it's all over the dining room (good thing we don't use it to actually eat in!), and the back of one chair in the living room, both rooms being extentions of each other (open floor plan. looks spacious, really not). I decided I like eating venison better than I like bitching about his crap being somewhat scattered. He does keep up with it, removes it when it's clearly in the way, and makes awesome venison kabobs. It's a trade-off. o_O

Agree that the military thing "corrects" a lot of guys habits, but I am an exception. When I was living in the barracks, I was a clean freak - kep my room like a museum at all times. I did that for two reasons - it was the professional way to be, and second (cloesly linked to the first) when any of the leadership walked into my room to inspect or conduct any other business, I wanted him to think (at first glance)"this guy is squared away, lets get out of here and go bother somebody else." It worked, they always did, so I kept it up.
But at home I am and have always been pretty much a slob. Fortunately my wife is ok with it.

I'd say she's got two choices: either hire a maid or let him get his own place. Like Amy I have been in a committed relationship for 7 years and we do NOT live in the same house. The first time we had to choose a paint color we'd kill each other. It's so much nicer to look at his trashed kitchen and know it's not my job to clean it up. And he will, eventually, but if he doesn't...oh well. :D

All these letters from women that go, in essence, "I love everything about him except [insert common difference between men and women]," make me wonder how the hell people get past age 18 without realizing that it is not just plumbing that make men and women different?

The other side of this seems to be the letters from men wondering why gals (on average...)seem to have less interest in sex as the relationship ripens/matures/ages/dies.

I wonder if prior generations, not raised with this weird doctrine of "No Innate Differences!" experienced similar confusion at the rather obvious differences between men and women.

These two can find a way to live together successfully if her BF really cares that the mess drives her insane. If he's living in the house, then he can take some responsibility for keeping it in order. He'll never be a neat freak, but he can certainly maintain a bare minimum of cleanliness to make her happy. And she can lower her standards a bit to meet him in the middle. Those of us who live with other people make these tradeoffs all the time.

Of course, if he simply won't or can't do it, then living apart is the way to go.

I'm with Ann on this. If you want to keep this relationship hire a maid. If you have to hire one that comes in first thing every morning, so you don't have to face the appalling kitchen, do it. Maybe the cash outflow will do what you can't - bring home the problem to your guy.

Whatever you do: do not keep cleaning up his messes. He'll rapidly get used to that idea and you'll grow more and more resentful.

Some people are just messy and I don't think you can do much about it. My father is very tidy and is known for throwing out the 732 things my mother dumps on the kitchen table daily. My brother, on the other hand, once physically tripped over a bag of garbage left in front of the door for him to take to the kerb on his way to work, and left it there. Later he said he hadn't noticed it, and I suspect he was telling the truth.

I had exactly the same problem at my house, and my bf and I solved it by giving him his own room- not to sleep in, but for all his stuff. This won't work for everyone, but if you have the space... He picked the paint color, furniture, etc., I don't usually even go in there and don't have to think about keeping it clean.
The best part is, he knows that if I find his crap laying around the house, I'm going to pick it up, throw it in his room, and shut the door. The advantage for him is that he doesn't have to hear me whine about his shit messing up the living room.

Whoever suggested a maid had a good idea. They could both chip in---he supposedly because he doesn't like the mess, and does like her---and she because the dump site drives her crazy. Well worth the expense, problem solved (mostly). On days the cleaning lady doesn't show, she'll just have to suffer for love.

The maid idea is good, but in order to keep the house neat enough to make her happy, the maid would have to come in every day. He should have to pay for it, in order to value it, and also to disassociate the connection she made in his mind that she exists to clean up after him, like his mommy.

If she starts acting like his wife/lover and he starts getting laid instead of getting screamed at and guilt tripped, he won't mind paying for the maid.

my personal motto is

"My dream guy owns a duplex"

i'd have to say from experience that the cleanliness of a guys home prior to
co-habitation is not always an indicator of how much he'll help clean up around the house.
An exBF of mine had an imaculate apartment when he lived by himself. When we moved in together, he left dirty clothes & dishes everywhere (thinking i was his personel maid)... we even tried the whole giving him his on room deal but then there was just one room that needed to be condemned by the Health dept. & the rest of the house was still a mess....

lesson learned, i guess. i have lived alone for 10 years since...yay!

Still dating after six years? 13.2 miles? Jeez, time to graduate.

Dating is lots of fun!

"Graduating" seems to be a big reason why a lot of people get married: "We've been together for 10 years, so we might as well take the next step." Like the relationship is all a practice run for marriage. A friend of mine was with her boyfriend for 10 years before they got married, and people were starting to treat her like her relationship was deficient because it took a decade to get a ring. Worse, she was starting to feel that way, too. Nevermind that her boyfriend didn't want to juggle a new marriage and medical school.

I'm a big fan of cohabitation (married or not) for people who are inclined to it. My boyfriend and I just moved in together, and we are committed to dealing with each other's annoying habits because we decided that we really want to fall asleep beside each other and wake up next to each other every day. And then there's the easy access to sex...

"And your idea of "graduating" is...?"

I've been with my boyfriend for almost a year and a half, and we don't plan to "graduate" either. We enjoy dating, so dating is what we'll continue to do. A friend-of-a-friend was asking me about a month ago why we weren't talking about getting married. I said, 'You're looking at it from the opposite direction. I don't need a reason to NOT do something. Now you tell me why we SHOULD be talking about getting married.'

He then asked what 'bad things' we thought would happen if we got married. I said, 'I think if we got married we would get along just fine and stay happy and in love together until we got old and died. But that STILL doesn't mean we should get married.'

I mean really, who cares?

There's an old saying that aptly applies here: if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Anyone who thinks of relationships as a deal that has to be closed before the other party wises up is operating from a position of fear. My guy knows he can leave any time he wants, but he also knows that I can too, so we treat each other very well, with great respect and consideration.

I was married once, and I refuse to be taken for granted again. Also, the sex gets boring really fast unless you work at injecting some mystery into your relationship, and a lot couples are too tired to put the work into it. Some also don't understand the importance of sex because of the puritanical ideas floating around. If you're not living in the same place, you can't get sick of each other.

I was wonderin something Amy, I'm not sure how many letters and responses you submit for publication - my local paper runs 2 on line but not in print, but why do you only post one of them here and not all of them?

I understand the 3 to 4 week delay but not the reasoning for postig only one

My wife is a self employed maid. She would be insulted if I vacuumed or cleaned the bathroom. (I know, poor me)

She only works 10-12 hours a week, so she does the grocery shopping and most of the cooking and cleaning. When she cooks, I do the dishes. What makes this work is that we notice and comment on what each other does. I always thank her for making dinner and she always points out the new bookcases or cabinets that I built for her when she shows someone through our renovations.

Even though she does the cleaning, I don't leave my stuff around for her to pick up. It's just a matter of respect. We are partners; she isn't my maid.

I love that I haven't had to clean the bathroom since I moved in and she loves it that she hasn't had to clean a paint tray. It's give and take.

Oh, it's not that I believe that there's a "next step" -- just that that's the perception. And it doesn't end there. If you get married, then you have to have a child, and if you have one child, you have to have two, then buy a house, etc. It all seems pretty exhausting for people caught up in it.

Of course, there is no reason to get married if you don't want to, anymore than there is a reason to eat chocolate ice cream if you don't like it. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with some people wanting to get married and liking the idea.

The married, two parents (biological or not, opposite sex or same sex) cohabiting model is arguably (but logically) a better way to raise children than being a single or noncohabitating parent. Of course, that doesn't matter if you don't want children.

If neither person wants to get married, it seems like that would work just fine. If both want to marry, that works too. The only issue might be if one wants to marry and the other doesn't.

The Goddess writes:

I don't want children, nor do I have any; at least, none that I know of.

How can a woman have children that she doesn't know of? I can understand a guy being in the dark, but a woman??? Reminds me of this blonde joke that I love. Q: What does a blonde say when she finds out she's pregnant? A: "I wonder if it's mine..."

My second favorite is Q: How did the blonde get lipstick on the steering wheel? A: She tried to blow the horn.

The Goddess writes:

I don't want children, nor do I have any; at least, none that I know of.

How can a woman have children that she doesn't know of? I can understand a guy being in the dark, but a woman???

Er, Patrick, I think that was the point of the joke.

I'm also 42 and know myself well enough to know I could never live with a slob, whether said slob is a friend, roommate, or lover/spouse, no matter what the person's other great qualities might be. But, I live alone. I would never think a slob would suddenly become neat in my house. I have two close friends I would never ever live with because our housekeeping styles are too different. There's nothing wrong with having boundaries, only in relaxing those boundaries expecting someone else to change and then feeling frustrated when they don't.

wrote: "You're looking at it from the opposite direction. I don't need a reason to NOT do something. Now you tell me why we SHOULD be talking about getting married."

This is the same way I looked at not having kids, which i was often asked to "justify." I felt it should be the other way around: people who want kids should first justify why they WANT them. I was told I was selfish for not wanting to raise a child, but all the reasons I heard for having kids were selfish, too. No one said to me "I want the experience of raising a happy, productive human being." I heard "I don't want to be lonely." "Babies are so cuuuuute." "We want to see what it will look like." "We don't want to be alone when we're old." "We want someone to carry on our family name." "Well, it's about time we had kids." "My clock is ticking."

www.holytaco.com/2008/09/23/worlds-most-disgusting-apartment-is-in-ho
uston/

A little clutter isn't so bad.
But, where are the cats?

Still dating after six years? 13.2 miles? Jeez, time to graduate.

Posted by: Benny "Peak Demand" cole at September 18, 2008 3:05 PM

Benny, do you smoke crack? Or, do you simply not know Amy very well?

You really posted that?

If it's that big a deal to you, and you insist on still living with him, ask him to foot the bill for a maid that'll come in 3 times a week. He needs to get that mommy doesn't live there and maybe he will if he has to pay a woman old enough to be his mommy $300 a week because he can't aim for the hamper.

I've been married to the most wonderful man for the past 17 years. He too is not the cleanest person. One day after getting upset at picking up dirty laundry I found after doing laundry, I got angry, then I thought, "If anything ever happened to him, I'd be alone." This thought alone changed my whole way of thinking. Now when I'm cleaning up behind him, it doesn't bother me, because I know that he's still here, and I'd miss everything about him if he weren't. I decided that having a wonderful loving man love and adore me was more important to me, than complaining about picking up after him.

Oh. Mah. Holy. Hell. Ya'll. Check out Andrew's link. You'd need to just burn the whole building to the ground. It's worse than a tenant meth lab.

My favorite shot is the computer--covered in unspeakable spooge and cigarette butts, but the most-used keys are lighter in color than the lesser-used ones, which are buried under ashes and butts and not even visible.

Thanks for that, Andrew. I was thinking of renting out my house this summer while I'm gone, but I think I'll just suck up the mortgage payment.

That? Would be a dealbreaker for any sane human, even if you didn't have to live there. I wouldn't want to be in the same zip code as someone who got dressed in that apartment.