Match Dot Con
A woman wrote me on an online dating site. Her profile said she was 42. I'm 37, which isn't a big age difference, so we went out. We had a blast and were planning to go out again when she e-mailed and confessed she'll be 49 in August. She seemed really cool, had a great sense of humor, and looked older than 42, but was definitely still cute. Should I be worried she might have other surprises in store?
--Numbers Racket
On the bright side, you don't mention discovering that 125 really is her weight -- from the knees down.
A seasoned shopper on an online dating site doesn't just wonder if everybody's lying, he expects it. People will tell you right in their profile that honesty is extremely important to them -- then sandwich that claim between more fudge than you can buy in one of those candy stores you see in the mall. And, because men and women have different hard-wired preferences for what they seek in a partner, they lie about different things. Men tend to lie about their height and income (and get photographed in front of a Jag -- the one parked next to their beater Nissan). Women are likely to lie about their age and weight ("more of me to love" equals "plan to pick me up for dates with a crane").
Deception has always played a big part in romantic marketing. Mascara is a lie. Wearing a slimming color is a lie. Frankly, deodorant is a lie, but let's hope the masses continue to embrace olfactory dishonesty. Of course, in person, control-top pantyhose only control so much. Online, people can get away with much more. When they create their dating profile, they aren't lying to somebody's face, they're lying on a resume they're sending off into the ether. And, they aren't doing it as themselves, but as GolfBeast or ChocolateLuvr89. So, you see "Husky dude with most of his hair and a quirky sense of adventure..." -- instead of "Male-pattern-balding, out-of-shape weirdo, teetering between thoughts of suicide and mass murder, seeks model."
Many of these hyperbolists seem to forget that there's going to be some point of reckoning. Or, they keep telling themselves they're planning on losing the weight or rolling off the couch and looking for a job. If they can just entice you into going out with them, they'll have you so charmed, maybe you won't notice or care that they have, oh, antlers and a tail.
As for Miss 42-and-counting, try to have a little compassion. Guys tend to go for younger or much-younger women, and guys on dating sites do searches with an age cutoff, which means she never gets the chance to be judged for her looks instead of her age. In the flesh-and-bones world, this would be like giving guys in a bar the ability to click a box in the air to make every woman over 45 disappear. Regarding your worry that she might have "other surprises" in store, consider it a good sign that she confessed her real age after the first date. If you don't think she's too old for you, keep dating her, and see whether she seems inclined toward convenient dishonesty. There's a good chance you've heard the worst of it -- assuming she's free of confounding medical issues like an undescended testicle.
Amy, your advice is good as usual, except for one little tidbit of info that isn't quite right. "49" shouldn't lie about her age. If she's attractive and fun, and apparently she is, she probably has all the male online attention she can handle. I am in the above 50 age range, and when I was doing online dating, I had my choice of guys, including younger ones. Maybe it's a midwest thing, but lots of over 50 guys seem to be able to get to what's important, that the woman is fun to be with, shares some interests, and she wants to be with him. Being able to cook was a double plus, and my extra pounds didn't deter many. Don't feel sorry for "49", she is probably doing quite well.
been there at April 8, 2009 3:36 AM
I'm trying to figure out exactly what the problem is. He likes her but he's complaining about a number? If her age was an issue health-wise or different interests, they wouldn't be clicking anyway. Ask me it's the woman who should be getting wary. He's making mountains out of molehills and creating problems where there aren't any. Has he been 100% honest? Not one little white lie? Maybe seven pounds instead of seven years or $7,000 income.
T's Grammy at April 8, 2009 5:33 AM
I think Amy read it quite right: she gave the wrong age, so that she would have a chance at younger guys. That's a bit of dishonesty that does bother one a bit, but only a bit.
As for why this is a problem for him, aside from the "white lie": unlike women, guys are generally reluctant to date women much older than themselves. A year or two doesn't matter, five (which he thought he was dealing with) is getting psychologically noticable. Twelve years certainly crosses most guys psychological limits.
bradley13 at April 8, 2009 5:41 AM
Bradley13, I think you've probably gotten it about right. As you said, most men are okay with women a little older than they are, but after a point, attraction decreases as age difference increases. There are exceptions, of course.
If that's the case, then maybe LW's concern is less about "what other surprises is she hiding?" than "she's just too old for me." And if he feels the age difference is just too much, maybe he should just tell her, "listen, I really dig you, but I can't get over our age difference. Sorry."
old rpm daddy at April 8, 2009 6:43 AM
I think LW is right to at least wonder whether his date is hiding bigger stuff. We encourage people to look at the details of what their potential partner is doing before getting too involved, right? And he's doing that. But I don't think he can make a judgment call based on one white lie. If the age difference is truly not a problem, then he should continue dating her with his eyes open. If it is, then he should let her go find someone who likes her better.
I remember when I was dating online. One guy was 40 pounds heavier than his picture indicated. That was enough for me to end it. He was probably a fine person and I hope he went on to find someone he clicked with, but lying about his weight was a real turn off.
MonicaP at April 8, 2009 6:53 AM
I don't know; there's a lot of practical problems for a long-term relationship (assuming that's what he's looking for) with a twelve-year age difference. For instance: She'll be reaching retirement age when he's still in his prime earning years. What if she decides she wants to travel while he's committed to his career? Nonetheless, if the LW has thought all this through and he's OK with it, go for it.
In the past few years, several of my family members who are into geanology have figured out that our paternal grandmother was probably 5-6 years older than the age she always claimed. (She died in 1987.) There's no birth certificate so no way of knowing for sure, but some family papers and photos have given us a few hints. We figure she might have done this, and her family was probably in on it, because back then a woman who reached 20 or so without being married was considered an old maid. (It was a cultural thing in the turn-of-the-century rural South.) We always thought her to be 18 when they married; she was probably more like 24. We don't know if our grandfather, who passed in 1983, ever knew or not; if he did, he never told anyone.
I want to add an observation: it's always an interesting exercise in cases like the LW's to reverse the genders, and see what the reaction is. I daresay that a guy who fudged his age on a dating site and then got dates with a woman 12 years his junior would probably be considered by a lot of people to be a creepy old man.
Cousin Dave at April 8, 2009 7:32 AM
Unless you are planning to have children, the age shouldn't be the big issue. I would be wary when one of the first things you learn about someone is a lie, but she did come clean fairly quickly. My advice would be to keep seeing her if he likes her and ignore the age lie if no other surprises pop up.
I think a lot of women actually don't see all of the weight they have put on. A friend from a dating site told my wife that her doctor had suggested gastric bypass surgery and she couldn't believe it because, "I'm not that big." She is over 300 lbs and on the dating site lists her body type as "a few extra pounds". I don't think she realizes that she is way off.
When I put my first profile on a dating site, I wrote it highlighting my positive aspects trying to drum up interest. After being single for a while and getting more comfortable with myself, I got more real. I wrote something like, "20 lbs overweight, balding and I spend too much time on my computer" and I put in a clear facial pic and a full body shot. I got way more email because it didn't sound like BS.
BTW, I met my wife on the site and she listed her body type as average and she wears size 6 jeans.
Steamer at April 8, 2009 8:35 AM
Is size 6 still average?
hamsa at April 8, 2009 9:08 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642133">comment from hamsaThere's huge size inflation in America. I'm thin but 5'9" and wear a size 6 -- or smaller. This should not be.
Amy Alkon at April 8, 2009 9:19 AM
Women have always lied about their ages... but if it really bothers him, just don't date her any more. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to date a younger guy, but I'm not in her shoes. One of our friends, who is a fairly successful, very fit corporate attorney, ONLY dates older women.
Think of it this way: If he met her at a bar, or the grocery store, or wherever, she'd probably be justifiably offended if he asked her age at all (at least right away).
ahw at April 8, 2009 9:45 AM
It's not really the age, but the fact that she's already now a proven liar ... the only question is, not if she's a liar, but how big of one is she (and how much dishonesty is tolerable to you). If someone lies about one thing, they'd lie about other things too. No not "everyone" lies - I don't (in my experience only liars think everyone lies) - but there are different levels of dishonesty. Lying about her age does not necessarily mean she would lie about serious things.
Since it wasn't a big thing she lied about, and since LW obviously likes her, my advice would be to keep going out with her for longer so one can better judge her character in general. If she has truly problematic traits, they'll most likely reveal themselves over time anyway. It would be stupid to throw away what might be a great thing (based on LW's description), over something like this.
My last girlfriend - who I met online - also lied about one or two big things. Her excuses seemed reasonable, so I gave her a chance, and over time her other character flaws did indeed reveal themselves and it turned into a small disaster. But the only way to find out is to continue; nothing ventured, nothing gained.
DavidJ at April 8, 2009 10:14 AM
I don't think people should lie about their age online, period. Men or women. Get your ass in shape, please, if you can, though, and then you'll have a killer photo that's accurate.
The lies might get you dates, but the can also cost you a serious connection. It's a risk-reward calculation.
However, I might "lie" about my age - I'm a 44 y.o. f - in a very obvious way, by saying that I'm 95 or 110 or whatever. It gets a laugh, and if I stick to the story, they'll just have to work it out for themselves.
Age IS important for people seeking to get married and breed. That's when the truth in advertising becomes essential.
vi at April 8, 2009 10:47 AM
I just turned 50 a few months ago, and I must admit, I was considering lying about my age if I ever went back on the dating website that I had been on. At this point it was more of an ethical musing on my part, because in the past, I had lied about my age and then had to come clean to the guy, which I did on the first date, like the LW did. It was a very uncomfortable feeling, because then the guy doesn't trust you.
I think the best idea is to put your real age, and then post a smoking hot picture of yourself. I would always get positive feedback, but it did bug when when the guy would add "... for your age" onto the "you look amazing".
I discovered that chronological age is irrelevant anyways, because everyone ages differently. I would usually just look at the photos and if they were tall and fit, and their faces looked pretty good, the age wouldn't matter. I would usually wind up with guys in their late 30s early 40s, but younger or older sometimes too.
I like the idea of putting my age at 110 for a laugh, and that way you remain mysterious...
Chrissy at April 8, 2009 11:53 AM
I think it's okay to lie about your age online in order to avoid getting culled during the search process. You might be perfect for somebody who's missing you because of 1 or 2 lousy years.
But then you MUST put your real age somewhere else in your profile, like in the introduction, so that potential mates can make an informed decision. To withold this info is basically saying, "what you say you want doesn't matter to me."
I went on a decent first date with an oldish-looking 45-year-old guy, who I would've gone out with again, until he said goodnight by confessing that he was actually a youngish-looking 56-year-old.
Okay, so I'm shallow. I simply don't want to date a guy who's 15 years my senior. Plus, all of his achievements seemed a little less impressive, now that he's had ten more years to achieve them.
Had this guy been honest upfront, I wouldn't have agreed to the date, which is why he lied, of course. BUT, he could have then spent the evening with someone else. Someone who doesn't find age an issue.
biscuit at April 8, 2009 11:57 AM
> As for Miss 42-and-counting,
> try to have a little
> compassion.
Why should we have compassion for old women when you won't let us feel compassion for fat ones, Amy? [Or, other way around: Why forgive men their fascination with slender women when you won't forgive them for admiring youth?]
And, no two ways about it, youth is a fundamental component of beauty. We give flowers to girls because everybody knows that the blossoms will wilt by morning; it's a way of urging them to live in the moment, while everything's firm and glowing.
Look at advertisements for any service or product dealing with vitality, sex appeal or grooming. The models are always young. Doesn't matter if it's exercise gear or weight-loss pills or vitamins. Even if it's obvious that the market for the product is people in their 40's & 50's, the models will be in their late teens or twenties.
Even boner pills! I'm not sure we've ever seen gray hair on the woman in a photographic Viagra ad... She always looks 2/3rds of a generation younger than the husband, as if he was ten years into a second marriage. Even if she's old enough to have gray hair, she'll be a neatly-dyed blond.
People want what they want.
I just wanted to give that sentence its own paragraph, and it's so good that it's worth repeating: People want what they want. Women want tall guys, they want rich guys, they want whatever they want, and it's the same with men.
Years ago I did a bunch of dating through BBS systems. (Basically, local internet chat & blogging.) The "point of reckoning" was the whole point of it... I never lied to anyone about what they'd find when they met me at the party or picnic or coffee house.
Some of the women were insanely pleased that I was telling the truth, because they'd been told horrible lies by men through computers in the past. I remember three different ones who said the same thing: "It wasn't the weight [or height or whatever], it's that he lied to me....
I almost believed them, but not quite. People want what they want. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I'm sorry if you feel excluded.
For example:
> I think it's okay to lie about
> your age online in order to
> avoid getting culled during
> the search process.
That's lunacy. It begins a relationship with dishonesty and manipulation, and it warns the other person that your never going to take their boundaries seriously.
And it's deeply pathetic.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 8, 2009 12:36 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642182">comment from Crid [cridcridatgmail]Why should we have compassion for old women when you won't let us feel compassion for fat ones, Amy?
Do I really have that much control over you?
Also, I feel for fat women, but I also feel they should read and listen to Gary Taubes and they won't be fat anymore.
Here's the link to Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400033462?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1400033462
Another helpful book, Diets Don't Work, by Bob Schwartz:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0942540166?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0942540166
Amy Alkon at April 8, 2009 1:02 PM
> Do I really have that much
> control over you?
We hate it when women so obsessed with being 'rational' are so inconsistent.
How about a couple of books about how women shouldn't allow themselves to get old, too?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 8, 2009 1:08 PM
You can't keep from getting old, Crid. You CAN keep from getting fat.
ahw at April 8, 2009 1:58 PM
"It wasn't the weight [or height or whatever], it's that he lied to me....
You can believe it, because that's exactly how I felt. I like a bit of chunk, so I could live with 40 pounds. I figured, with all the guys on the dating site, I could probably find one who was attractive and nice to spend time with who also wasn't going to lie before we'd even met.
I don't see a problem with getting culled. I WANTED to be culled. Online dating is like buying stuff on eBay. With all those options, it's hard to get to the stuff you like, and narrowing down your options helps you sort the crap from lucky finds.
MonicaP at April 8, 2009 2:06 PM
> You CAN keep from getting fat.
Yeah, but whose feelings are we talking about here? If guys are into young women, then that's that, right?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 8, 2009 3:07 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642206">comment from Crid [cridcridatgmail]Actually, I should launch the Gary Taubes Diet Challenge here. (He has no such thing.) But, I haven't dieted for maybe 15 years, and recently, we were shooting my book cover, and I hadn't been eating too well or exercising, and a photo really does put on 10 pounds. I thought, crap, it's Wednesday, we're shooting on Sunday -- so I ate no carbs from Wednesday to Sunday...and ended up weighing what I did in high school...not that I was fat before, but I wasn't quite that thin. And I didn't starve myself: I ate bacon, eggs, cheese, and green vegetables swimming in oil. And something interesting happened: my energy level was even higher. I feel almost like I did when I was 17. So, although I don't need to no-carb it to stay thin, I have pretty much stopped eating carbs. I drink wine sometimes at night or when I'm out with Gregg, and when we do go out, I'll order dessert. But, I just can't give up the feeling I have from not eating flour, sugar or easily digestible carbs (potatoes, etc.)
Coming soon -- want to see how this effects everybody else. Oh, and P.S. I now weigh LESS than I did in high school -- but not on purpose. Just a side-effect of this. And not to worry, boys...naturally round enough that it looks good, not scary.
Amy Alkon at April 8, 2009 4:53 PM
> I WANTED to be culled.
'Zactley.
> like buying stuff on eBay.
Yep, only an Ebay where the seller won't tell you which category the goods belong in. Is he selling you a dining room set, or Hummel figurines?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 8, 2009 8:33 PM
This isn't bait and switch, because the guy is not committed to anything beyond one date. From that point the online profile is irrelevant: it's wysiwyg. I couldn't recognise people from their profile photos - not because they were lying & cheating, but just because a photo captures one 125th of a second of a person's life, and it's not a lot to go on.
I'd say forget the profile the moment you meet in person. All bets off. Clean sheet. Clean sheets.
Norman at April 9, 2009 1:54 AM
> the guy is not committed to
> anything beyond one date.
Still a waste of time, anticipation/enthusiasm, gas + parking, and integrity.
Not the end of the world, but let's carry Monica's analogy a little further, but pretend Ebay is a little more conversational.
So you're in the market for some golf clubs, and Amy's selling a pair of snow skis. And so you log into Ebay and say, "I want some golf clubs." And Amy types back at you, "I have some sporting goods for sale, they're exactly what you want!" And you say, "Are you selling golf clubs?", and she replies "I'm certain these goods will make you very happy!" So then you meet somewhere to do the transaction. What's she going to say? "You ought to give snow skiing a chance! It's a popular sport, more popular every year!"
...You decline...
She says "You're not even giving these skis a chance to make you happy! I'm selling them at a fair price! I deserve the price I'm asking for!"
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 9, 2009 2:12 AM
Crid - if age were a deal breaker, the guy could easily say so in preliminary emails. If he gets an equivocal reply like yours for Amy's golf clubs, he can end it right there.
But in fact this guy, having met the woman, is now in two minds. Which suggests that (a) her behaviour was acceptable to him, not a deal-breaker at all, and (b) her behaviour was effective as a strategy in making first contact. I don't see who has lost out in this particular case. He doesn't even know if he's worried about it, which is why he's asking Amy if he should be. Could be he's onto a winner!
Norman at April 9, 2009 5:40 AM
As a point of interest: I once belonged to a pre-Internet dating service. This service was fairly high end, or at least made a pretense of being so. The way it worked was, you went to one of their offices, did your profile, and then paid to have their (very expensive) photog take photos and shoot a video of you. The photos were copied and went into books around the area where the company had offices. The videos were also copied and distributed. When you went in for a look-see, you went through the book. If you liked someone you saw, you could also watch their video. At that point, you could fill out a form for a date request, and they would send the person you requested your contact info. Everyone was first-name-only until the requestee agreed to a date.
The relevant point is that, as part of the workup, they verified your age. They also measured your height and weighed you. So it was impossible to lie about these things in your profile. You had the option to withhold your weight, but they advised not, since doing so was considered a big red flag by most date-seekers. I don't recall for sure if withholding your age was an option -- I don't think it was.
Cousin Dave at April 9, 2009 6:44 AM
"I WANTED to be culled."
Exactly for me as well. I saw many women saying that to date them you must be 5'10", have a full head of hair or no facial hair. I don't meet those requirements. By posting thier preferences, these women saved me from wasting their time and my time. I wasn't looking for a lot of coffee dates, just a few that had the potential to go somewhere.
It's interesting that many women see no problem with putting in a height requirement which men have absolutely no control over, but just let a man say that he prefers slim women and he is branded as shallow.
Steamer at April 9, 2009 8:42 AM
> if age were a deal breaker,
> the guy could easily say so
> in preliminary emails
That's the point. He did, and she ignored the boundary. Why should she expect a satisfactory outcome? Do you think he shouldn't have doubts about anything else she has to say?
(Just two days ago a friend [also 50] told of going out on a date with a woman for the first time. The conversation about her romantic ventures grew ever more entangled. Two and a half hours on, he realized he was out with another man's wife.)
Amy's point holds: People tell lies. I think Biscuit is wrong to say it's OK to be dishonest to avoid getting culled. (Her precise word was "lie".) I think Amy's wrong for saying the 42yo needs "compassion". (Don't you think that by the fifth decade of life people should know how to get their needs met through honesty?)
It you're happy swinging that snow ski through the fairway, then we're all happy for you. Meanwhile, if a woman tells me she's interested in tall young black men who enjoy country music and theme parks, I'll stay out of her way.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 9, 2009 11:46 AM
Crid - That's the point. He did, and she ignored the boundary.
Actually, the OP is silent on this point, so I think you are inferring it.
Why should she expect a satisfactory outcome?
What makes you think she expects it? I think she hopes for it, perhaps based on her knowledge that she almost passes for a 42-yo.
Do you think he shouldn't have doubts about anything else she has to say?
Sure he should. As he should when meeting anyone for the first time, before trust has been earned, on both sides. She's slipped back a bit in the trust stakes, but he's not that bothered.
Would you really say to a person -especially a woman - who lied about their age, "I can never trust you. We can never meet again."
Norman at April 9, 2009 12:06 PM
"It's interesting that many women see no problem with putting in a height requirement which men have absolutely no control over, but just let a man say that he prefers slim women and he is branded as shallow."
Tell you what, the day men stop judging women on breast size is the day I'll feel badly for men being judged on height.
Back in my B-cup days I'd walk into a club and have short, average looking men stare me up and down, their eyes would stop at my chest and they'd look at me with absolute disgust.
No, I couldn't afford to spend thousands of dollars on implants and even if I had the money, I wasn't about to have my chest wall sliced open and a sack of liquid metal stuffed inside.
I also think its beyond shallow when a man whose gut makes him look 6 months pregnant rants about how ugly 'fat chicks' are.
General rule: the uglier the man, the pickier he is about the woman's looks.
Back on topic: I don't blame the guy for not wanting to get involved with someone so much older and the lying would put me off anyone too so I can't blame him for hesitating to get involved with her.
JoJo at April 9, 2009 12:23 PM
>Actually, the OP is silent
What's an OP?
> I think you are inferring it.
Let's not confuse the cases. Biscuit was ready to tell a lie, Amy thinks liars deserve "compassion", and the actual letter (as presented in the post) paints a distractingly abstract picture anyway. (Could a sane 37 year old not recognize that a woman was twelve years older?)
> As he should when meeting anyone
> for the first time
But they're beyond that first meeting now! You keep shifting the context, Norman. You want the liar to be credited with forgiveness before her dishonesty has been made plain, you want him to develop all this caution long after he should have.
We're talking about a linear process here. Got it? Linear.
> Would you really say to a person
> -especially a woman - who lied
Gender gets no flexibility for honesty.
> about their age, "I can never
> trust you. We can never meet
> again."
Why are you putting words in my mouth? (You wouldn't have to script out a soap opera crisis if you had more faith in your principle.) He wouldn't have to say anything... If this were a matter that meant a lot to him, and he'd made that plain going in, I think he could have just turned and walked away from the initial meeting. (Maybe a twenty-second "Pleased to have met you today, but I have another appointment" would have been appropriate... But maybe not. People want what they want, Norman.)
I'd have expected no better if I'd made false representations in order to build excitement and snag a meeting. Would you?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 9, 2009 12:29 PM
The first two paragraphs of Jojo's comment describe a handsome standoff...
People want what they want.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 9, 2009 12:31 PM
If we take the LW at face value and assume all he's worried about is whether she told other lies, I think the answer is, probably not. In dating ads, women usually lie about physical qualities like age, weight and looks. He's met her in person, so he already knows what she looks like. If he's OK with her age, he should go for it.
Rex Little at April 9, 2009 1:26 PM
"It wasn't the weight [or height or whatever], it's that he lied to me...."
If the man had lied about, say, his income being *lower* than it actually was those gals would have gotten past that awful, awful betrayal. Certainly by the time his limo took them back to the lear jet.
So it wasn't the lie, was it? It was the heigh, weight, etc. They just didn't want to say that.
Deceptions in an online profile are self-deceptions. In the end, you are no more attractive for having fibbed about yourself. By fibbing on your criteria, you are increasing the chances of meeting people who really did not want to meet you. Oh sure, you may find a person who, upon encountering your glittering soul of eternal goodness, realizes that your 30 extra pounds and no job is immaterial. But realistically, that person will simply be griping about you--by name--to friends next weekend. Properly so, I say. You wasted their time by fibbing.
Spartee at April 9, 2009 1:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642331">comment from JoJoTell you what, the day men stop judging women on breast size is the day I'll feel badly for men being judged on height.
That's along the lines of what I wrote to lead off the column. I'm guessing shortypants wouldn't go for a woman shaped like a Dumpster...but according to his terms, wouldn't that be "lookist" of him? Whoops!
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2009 2:08 PM
Wow, I can relate to this LW at least in the fear of what else his date was hiding. I was dating this guy who got in a very public fist fight. Several acquaintances saw and questioned me about what had happened, since he is a fairly soft-spoken person, and everyone thought it was very unusual behavior on his part. I waited for a while for him to say something to me about it, but the next couple of times we hung out, he never did. Then when I asked him, he very convincingly claimed that he didn't know what I was talking about and there hadn't been any fist fight. But enough people had seen it that I knew there had been. So I started listing off people who had asked me about it and he finally broke down and admitted to it. He told me he was afraid I would think of him as a violent person. We'd been dating for several months and had spent a lot of time with each other for about 5 months before we'd started dating. Based on what I observed, I thought of him as a caring person. I had asked initially because I wanted to be there for him if he needed to talk about it. There was that fear of what else he was hiding, I couldn't live with it and we broke up. I still wonder sometimes what the fight was about.
On the other hand, I think its common and almost socially acceptable for women to lie about their age, especially as they near one of the milestone ages like 30 or 50. Amy's right that its more of a white lie and she obviously felt bad enough to admit it very early on. But once a lie comes out, its really hard to get trust again. She'd probably do better to just not put her age or else, like Chrissy said to put that she's 100 or something and leave people to their own assumptions. A flattering picture probably would get her a lot more dates than fudging about her age anyway.
Lily at April 9, 2009 3:57 PM
You have to have a picture, and if it's a good one, the age doesn't matter to guys that don't care anyways. The ones that care about age care for a specific reason, probably because they want to have kids, want to show off a young trophy girlfriend to their friends, or enjoy playing the wise elder role in a relationship (any other reasons? probably lots).
After lying about my age and having to come clean about it, I didn't do it again, and found that it wasn't an issue with a lot of guys. The most important thing they care about is if you're good looking and have a nice body, and that you're not crazy. After having loads of bad experiences on the internet, they're just grateful to have a pleasant date. You're better off eliminating the guys who have an issue with age.
I went on so many coffee dates with guys that I met on Lavalife, that I could write a book. I must have spoken to thousands and actually met in person (20 minute coffee date) about 200. It's a great experience for personal growth and figuring out who you are and what you want, as well as seeing what's available on the market. It also makes you like men a lot more and realize how hard it is for them to meet a nice woman. Then when you meet a great guy, you have lots of context to appreciate what you've got in front of you.
Chrissy at April 9, 2009 5:51 PM
> I think its common and almost
> socially acceptable for women
> to lie
That reminds me of the first book I ever read about poker, which said that at some private tables, it's considered almost ethical to cheat. In the forty years since, I've not found the casino (or private table not hosted by criminals) that felt that way about it.
> especially as they near one of
> the milestone ages like 30 or 50
Because those particular birthdays mean things to the liars? Does this mean you can lie about things as long as it means a lot to you personally?
{Me? I'm six-foot-one, and independently wealthy. OK? OK. And I'm 37. Straight teeth. Perfect eyesight, great hearing. Thanks for asking!)
PS- It's good that you dumped that boyfriend. Point-blank denials deserve to be trusted
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 9, 2009 5:53 PM
I'm friends with a guy I met on an on-line service. We dated briefly but ended up being "just friends" although we're really, really good friends. Although I don't do the on-line thing anymore (and never will again as it is super el-weirdo, icky), I love reading his profiles.
He lies. He lies hugely, totally, enormously. He lies on-line, in person, to himself and he'd lie to me, too, except I'm onto his ruse.
He doesn't, of course, mean to lie. It's just the nature of the medium.
Honestly, who is going to write the truth when most of us can barely stand to think it?
I don't expect him to write, "50 year old, hopeless mess, barely employed, hasn't had a decent episode of sex in 4 years seeking 32 year old beauty with great sense of humor, a trust fund that can support us both and the libido of an LA Laker." It would be true, but if he had balls enough to write that, he wouldn't be the mess he is.
Yes, it sucks to be lonely and to feel desperate to meet someone. Still, spending hours on-line chasing each other's b.s. can only compound the feelings of hopelessness. Get outside. Live. Do something -- anything -- that's real and engaging. If you meet someone that's great. If not, you've at least got a life you can be proud of living.
belle at April 10, 2009 7:01 AM
> Why should we have compassion for old women
> when you won't let us feel compassion for fat
> ones, Amy?
Wait, 42 is old now? Or even 49?
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha.
Gwen at April 10, 2009 7:07 AM
If you're into 30-year-olds, 42 is ancient.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at April 10, 2009 8:32 AM
Mainly, my problem with lying about your age on dating sites is that it's so unnecessary. The larger ones have so many people looking for love that you're bound to find people who likes your age/height/weight just fine. An attractive woman in her late 40s (or even 60s) will have no trouble finding interested men.
MonicaP at April 10, 2009 11:24 AM
Unless the person believed you, like this lw seemed to, I'm not sure if its an ethical question. I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the letter writer's date that when she realized he took her claimed age seriously, she came clean. There are factions of society that do not take it at face value when a woman tells her age. Or at least there seemed to be when I was a kid. I grew up hearing women joke about how a friend of theirs had been 29 for the past 10 years. Once in school one of the boys asked our teacher how old she was and she replied, " It is never polite to ask a lady her age."
From my background, it doesn't seem ethically wrong to fudge the numbers on your age, as long as people know you're doing it. But it does seem kind of silly. Lying about one's age to an audience that knows you're lying, seems like a bizarre exercise in denial that everyone else is forced to humor. I think the practice comes from attitudes that are (thankfully) becoming increasingly irrelevant. One commenter mentioned her grandma, who unmarried at 26 would have been considered an old maid. Given that its been less than 100 years since that attitude was prevalent, I don't want to be very harsh on 49-year-old wanting to be 42. I'm still at an age (22) where I'm trying very hard NOT to look younger than I am, especially when I go in for job interviews and such. I don't want to be harsh on women who are trying to look younger... since I might reach that point someday. Hopefully never :p I'm hoping to age gracefully, like Sean Connery.
p.s. I've never heard of "ethical" cheating in poker before. I'd imagine there are many places where it would suit your interests not to test that particular concept :)
Lily at April 10, 2009 5:41 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642508">comment from LilyI'm 45. 45. 45. I'm really 45. Just turned it in March. Next March, I will be 46. The March after, 47. I was less knowledgeable and more of a muck-up at 44. Or, you could say, I'm more knowledgeable, and I've learned from a few of my mistakes during the past year. And I'm in the best shape of my life right now. So, I'm quite thrilled to be 45.
Amy Alkon at April 10, 2009 5:49 PM
Amy - You are self-aware and comfortable in your own skin. Those are rare traits and that's why you're a role model for me.
Lily at April 10, 2009 6:15 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642512">comment from LilyAww, thanks -- it's been a process!
Amy Alkon at April 10, 2009 6:47 PM
I found my husband-to-be on eHarmony. I tease him that it was the best $200 I ever spent.
Yeah, we both wanted hotties, but neither one of us is a supermodel but we are attractive enough and attracted to each other.
I preferred one my age or younger, he preferred one give or take a few years. I like them younger than me b/c I feel young for my age and people always think I am a few years younger, but I told the honest truth about everything and so did he.
I liked that they did the matching b/c at 45, I clearly wasn't picking my own well or I would have already found a good one.
He isn't perfect, but then again, apparently I am not either!
Linny at April 13, 2009 8:21 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642769">comment from LinnyLinny, you sound pretty cool, and like you've figured out how to do life pretty well.
Amy Alkon at April 13, 2009 8:26 AM
Why can't everyone just get over calling people shallow or mean for not liking older women or fat women or women with small boobs versus big ones...whatever. Truth is, everyone likes what they like, and if they pass you over for someone 20 years younger..too bad. You're old. You're fat. Get over it. Noone should tell anyone that the choices they make are not right, especially these days where everyone wants to do what they want, when they want, with absolutely no accountability for their actions.
So, if you don't like short men or bald men, or you don't like fat women of old women...thats just great...that is our right to choose whoever we want. If you are one of the ones who keep getting passed up: quit complaining, go to the gym, or go get yourself 50 cats.
mike at April 13, 2009 9:08 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/match-dot-con.html#comment-1642778">comment from mikeWise and entertainingly cranky words, mike.
Amy Alkon at April 13, 2009 9:13 AM
@Crid, OP is original post. And the internet is a series of tubes.
Hasan at April 13, 2009 9:46 AM
I know you can't change your age, and you can change your weight. I have lost and gained back weight, at least, a dozen times. I hike, bike, swim am very active, but people assume I am a couch potato. Heck I don't even have a TV!
The thing is that everyone has their addictions, it is just that excess weight is exposed to the world. Hatred of overweight people, women in particular, is the last accepted prejudice. Most people don't say, "Well, just quit smoking or just give up drinking because they have been educated about how difficult it is. When Amy says ("more of me to love" equals "plan to pick me up for dates with a crane"). Well, I know a lot of this is tongue and cheek and very amusing, but that one hurt a bit.
Anyway, I have posted my ads on regular dating sites with full photos, but I have read the men's ads and 99/100 say, "slim, slender, thin, athletic or average. My solution was this: I simply go to dating sites where there are men who either tolerate, or actually enjoy zoftig women. It is funny, many of them are embarrassed that they like big women and are teased about their preferences.
What the heck, it is the skinny women's turn anyway. We rubenesque women had all the fun in the 16th and 17th centuries and Marilyn Monroe was a size 16.
If you are large like me, there are "Big Beautiful People", "Big Beautiful Women", and "Large and Lovely" sites to be found. If you want to know about them, feel free to contact me.
I wish we would be more tolerant of each other's differences. I think it is sad that 49 thinks she has to lie about her age, but I can't judge. I only know that I try to be honest about who and what I am. We are all just trying to do the best we can with what we have.
Sarah at April 13, 2009 3:12 PM
I wouldn't lie about my age on a dating site, but I understand why Miss-42-and-Counting did so. Plenty of people put arbitrary age limits on their online profiles, on the (probably correct) assumption that *most* people they'd be interested in would fall into those age limits. However, many of those people -- maybe most -- in real life would consider people that are younger or older than those age limits. As long as she 'fessed up really quickly rather than waiting to get caught, the age difference doesn't faze him, and he likes her, I don't think it's necessarily proof that she's going to lie and cheat in general.
JoJo -- guys looked at your B-cups in "disgust"? What's up with that? I haven't found that my B-cups have been a detriment to my dating life at all. Most models are A or B cups, for Pete's sake! If your ass and legs look good and you're generally in proportion, most guys will be perfectly happy -- delighted, even -- with average-sized breasts, at least in my experience. There are even dudes out there who prefer small-to-medium breasts.
Gail at April 13, 2009 8:20 PM
Well said, Gail.
In my 20's, I had the stereotypical hourglass figure and was into girlie things like makeup, clothes and hair. I turned heads on the street.
In my 30's and a struggling single Mom, I gained a lot of weight and lost interest in makeup, clothes and hair. Chasing after a kid, I went with the comfort of jeans, kept myself cleaned and groomed and money went on stuff for said kid (little things like food, clothing, shelter and medical care for her) instead of make-up and perms/styling. I turned heads on the street.
Now, I'm older, lost 70 pounds (though I've gained some back after acquiring trouble walking, got to curb that) and still go with the comfort of jeans and see no need to go back to spending my hard-earned money on make-up and perms/styling. Or dye. There's gray in that hair now that I'm 51 and a grandma but I'll be damned if I cover it up. I wear it with pride. I earned every gray hair on my head. When I wrinkle (good genes, my mother didn't wrinkle either, also see above about not wearing make-up and don't exactly worship the sun), I'll likewise wear them with pride.
Guess what? I still turn heads on the street. Men still flirt shamelessly. And I still love it! :)
Two things I have found make a difference:
1. Kids. I always got more attention as a single mom when my daughter wasn't with me. Kids are a turn-off but I can understand this. Even with a kid of my own, I wasn't interested in any single dads. Interestingly, the grandkid doesn't seem to be as much of a turn-off to the guys. Less likely I'll be taking full custody. Don't think they realize how big a part of my life T is.
2. Attitude. I find that when I'm in a good mood, smiling and feeling self-confident, I turn far more heads than when I'm in the dumps and glowering at the world. Also understandable. A smile really does go a long, long way. And I do think this too is a bit of what Amy means when she talks about how women treat men. Though I would also add, guys too need to realize how much more desirable they are when they're pleasant.
T's Grammy at April 14, 2009 7:12 AM
Re: B Cups. I once had a male friend tell me that anything more than a handful was pointless.
MonicaP at April 14, 2009 8:17 AM
The problem with DD cups is they become knee cups. Gravity is not kind.
Gimme a pair of solid Bs any day.
brian at April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
As my friend also said, "When she gets old, they're just something to kick around in the shower."
MonicaP at April 14, 2009 11:31 AM
MonicaP, your friend did not tell that correct. It is, "anything more than a mouthful is a waste." I may be old, but I am not dead.
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