Spot on! There are differences in the way a woman will fiddle with object around her when she wants to leave and when she wants you to ask her out. Also, when a woman touches a man it isn't a tap or a "hey there" touch, its more like a caress. Maybe he should look for those signs.

Chinese proverb:
Man stand long time with mouth open before roast duck fly in.

Well... as far as I know it's a Chinese proverb and either way I like it.

"it's not like women bang pots and pans together in China."

It took me a good minute to collect myself from this one...funny stuff, Amy.

I have difficulty reading signals. I guess that's why I don't talk to women at the gym. Nothing ruins a good workout like a staff member coming over and saying, "Mrs. X wants you to leave her alone." That hasn't happened yet, and I'm not about to let it.

OK, OK, Miss X. I don't hit on married women.

Why does social interaction have to involve "hitting on" someone? What the hell ever happened to casual converstaion? Noticing that someone at the gym who's headband is a shocking pink could start a little conversation:

"Woah. Get a load of the bright pink headband!"

"Yeah, guess he/she's supporting Breast Cancer Awareness."

"Oh, is that what that's about? *silly grin*

"Yeah, didn't you see Sunday's Patriots' game? Randy Moss had pink gloves and cleats, and half the refs were wearing pink wristbands!"

Etc. and so on. Might not lead to a date, but at least the other person knows you can be a bit little observant!

"If you can't hear what a woman's body language is telling you, it's probably because the loudest sound in the room is your low opinion of yourself."

Too true, years ago when I still looked up to red bricks for their vast level of intelligence, I had gone to my weekly bar with my friends for a fun night out. At the end of the night I was lamenting how not one woman had thought I was attractive and my friends told me about a very striking bartender who had done everything except light a neon sign to let me know that she was interested.

I didn't see it in the slightest, and no lie; the very thought which crossed my mind when I entered the bar was that "With my hair braided like this I look like CRAP! NO ONE IS GOING TO THINK I'M CUTE.

...Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

The LW is being deliberately obtuse + he comes off as passive-aggressive. Perhaps he's not seeing the signs because they're not being directed to him.

But I do question whether signals such as eye contact and fidgeting qualify as flirting. Are these deliberate, conscious, behaviors?

There are simply some men who do not speak "hint".

Perhaps if there were a course in body language one could take?

Perhaps if there were a course in body language one could take?

My suggestion: Watch people in bars and other dating venues, like restaurants and coffee shops. Observe how they behave with each other.

The risk is, sometimes a man will be wrong: She really wasn't flirting and was just being friendly. As long as you're not dragging her back to your cave by her hair, it'll be OK.

Also, there's http://www.universalclass.com/i/crn/7550003.htm. I've never taken it and know nothing about it, but there might be more out there.

Damn, take off the period at the end of that link and it'll work.

Perhaps if there were a course in body language one could take?

Well, that's kind of what I had to do. I must be on the autism spectrum somewhere because I reached adulthood with no ability at all to interpret body language. I read books on it, and I went to places where people meet and spent hours watching how they interacted. They probably thought I was some kind of voyeur. In a way, I guess I was, but I had to do it. I wasn't going to be able to fully participate in adult life until I did.

Even today I'm still not terribly good at it. A few years ago, I was traveling on business, and I went to the hotel bar one evening just to have a beer and chill a bit. There was a big group in and the barstools were all taken, so I took a small table. A few minutes later, another group comes in, and they can't find a place to sit together, so they stand near my table, and I wind up in their conversation. Then, an attractive lady from their group detatches herself and asks if she can sit at my table. I say fine, and we chat. Over the next several minutes, it starts to occur to me... "Wait a minute, there's something going on here... I think I know what this is..." Eventually the clue-bat hit me, but it took a while. She was a local who was with a group that was attending a meeting at the hotel. She was married, as was I. I won't say I wasn't tempted, but... no, that can't happen. I wound up walking her out to her car; we hugged and she left.

Guys are tone-deaf to that kind of stuff -- at least I know I am. I'm long-since married and probably out of the dating game forever, so the whole thing is mostly of academic interest to me.

But I had a curious experience the other day, that I guess is sort of relevant to this discussion: My wife accused me of 'allowing' a woman to flirt with me at a social event. I did not have even the foggiest idea of what she was talking about, and I would have put it down to wifely paranoia except that my 15 year old daughter agreed emphatically with her mother. (And, of course, for daughter & mother to agree on anything is about as common as a double solar eclipse, and I fully expect to see pigs flying whenever that occurs).

And my daughter is like: "But, DAD, didn't you see what that woman was doing? She moved her arm this way and she turned her head that way ... and she said this and she smiled at that, and ... blah, blah, blah ..." And I'm like "No, I didn't notice anything." (Which was 100% true, by the way!!)

And, anyhow, the bottom line was that they both kind of rolled their eyes at me and let the whole matter drop -- Thank Goodness!

And when I think about it logically, it probably does make sense that the other woman might have been flirting with me: She is in her mid-fifties, two- or three- times divorced, and living in genteel poverty; whereas I'm 60-ish and a reasonably successful professional. But at the time all this was allegedly happening, I didn't have a clue!

Concur with these last posts--I think that guys are often clumsy at reading some of the more subtle signals, being the more direct of the sexes, whereas women zero in on them (especially when observed in other women). Both men and women give off plenty of cues, unconciously, but many men are simply oblivious. A gal may THINK she's flirting and the guy takes it as friendly or the other way around....in the case of john w's real life example above, if both of your female loved ones see it, then rest assured they are reading the intent of the "flirter" accurately....each sex reads its own the best. Me personally, when women flirt with my hubby, (and they often do), I take it as a compliment and tease him later about what "catnip" he is.

> each sex reads its own the best.

I completely concur Beth. I was out with my, now boyfriend, when we were just getting together at a restaurant. I am a person who loves to interact with everyone and happened to make quite a bit of small talk with the waitor. I wasn't flirting and my bf knew I wasn't, but the waitor winked at me several times. I didn't take it as anything much, but when we left the restaurant my bf expressly told me that I had been hit on quite hard.

Who knew? Apparently not me.

If a woman bends over in front of you, and shows you her underwear, is that a hint?

If a woman bends over in front of you, and shows you her underwear, is that a hint?

She's telling you to kiss her ass.

Um...either she wants to be your girlfriend or your urologist?

Why not hook up with a urologist? Kill two birds with one stone.

@John: "But at the time all this was allegedly happening, I didn't have a clue!"

I'm not very good at it myself. I remember being at a restaurant with my wife and the kids, and my oldest daughter told me afterword, "Daddy, that waiter was so flirting with you!" News to me.

I myself have Asperger's which means I'm quite clueless about interpreting signals from the opposite sex.

I recall a few years ago I was at the deli counter at Safeway, and told the woman behind the counter that I was looking for something lean and low-fat. She said "I'm lean and low-fat." However, I didn't do more than be friendly as there was a family crisis going on at the time that weighed heavily on me.

Besides, I didn't want to make a full of myself at the Safeway I regularly went to.

When I was in college, I took one evening class started at 7 PM.

One evening, an attractive female student at the same class ended up climbing up stairs right in front of me on the way to the class. I never talked to her before. We were alone at that moment.

She was wearing a tee shirt with a tight blue jean. Then, she decided to tuck her tee shirt. She unzipped her blue jean first, then she tucked her tee shirt, and then finally zipped her jean. She did all of this while climbing the stairs right ahead of me. I did not say or do anything.

After all these years, I keep asking myself the same question. "Did I totally miss something that evening?"

After all these years, I keep asking myself the same question. "Did I totally miss something that evening?"

Not necessarily. There is a not-too-well-known tourist attraction in Yellowstone National Park called "boiling river" where a hot spring flows into a river in such a way that the water stays warm enough for swimming even in mid-winter. There are signs that say "No nudity" but they aren't always enforced. And in the winter time the air is usually kind of foggy with maybe a 30 or 40 foot visibility.

I was there a few years ago, sitting on a bench, waiting for my wife & kids to come back from someplace, and this college-aged girl comes out of the river, walks to another bench about 10 or 20 feet in front of me, and proceeds to take off her swimsuit, towel herself dry, and get dressed in her winter clothes again. She must have known darn well that I was sitting there watching her because as she was leaving, she nodded at me and said "Hi." in a perfectly friendly, but non-flirty, way.

Apparently some women are just totally un-self-conscious about that sort of thing. The incident did not bother me one way or the other (I've seen naked women before), but I think if my wife had been there, she would have had a triple hissy fit.

Adds a whole new dimension to the quandary some female LW’s have about approaching guys doesn’t it. While “Nice girls” are only supposed to send signals, a good portion of guys (myself included) have busted receivers. I remember reading in a MacLean’s a while back that this issue was one of the biggest ones women had about guys.

“After all these years, I keep asking myself the same question. "Did I totally miss something that evening?"

My friend, there was a period of about 2 years in my life after my mid 20’s when I would suddenly stop whatever I was doing and realize about how yet ANOTHER woman in my past was actually hitting on me and I had NO @#$#@ CLUE!!

I've known women with years of marriage, teaching school at various grade-levels, and motherhood of boys under their belts, who still had not grasped the idea that while hints and indirection may work well with girls, with boys it's best to be direct. If I had had a daughter, one of the first things I'd pound into her head when she started getting interested in dating was that boys are NOT just girls with funny plumbing---they think differently, and if you like one, it's a lot better to SAY SO in so many words. If you fear rejection---welcome to the wonderful world of equality!

Question;

Remember that ladies man who we all knew when we where younger? The one who seemed to have the magic touch and always had a beautiful girl all of the time? Was it really because the could talk to the ladies, or was it because that dude simply knew a woman's signals when she sent them?

Am I that apparently rare women who can't apparently tell if a guy is interested? I spent years being absolutely convinced that no man had ever looked at me twice, until a friend said at some point "He is checking you out" and I went "What?" and realised that it might sometimes happen, I just don't realise.

A guy will have to be seriously blatant with me before I realise he's doing more than just being friendly.

I try to signal that I'm interested sometimes, but from lack of success I have to conclude that either I suck at it, or I still have no insight whatsoever in if a guy fancies me or not.

Actually, I did just wait at home for a couple of years once and a beautiful sweet girl did come to the door. Ok, she was bringing my cat back (so I wasn't complaining to it) and I did have to invite her in for coffee (note to self - always have milk in the fridge) and invite her to a party a few weeks later - but she waited very patiently through my shyness till I realised she really was interested!

Made all those nights at bars look like a complete waste of time...

When my very handsome husband was about 30 years old, he went off to the vidoe store one night to rent a movie. He came home a few minutes later with the movie and we sat down and watched it. After the movie, he blurted out, "I think the clerk at the video store was trying to hit on me." I, being supportive wife asked him "What did she say or do that made you think that?" He said; "She told me she got off at midnight and asked me what I was doing later." I said "Yep, she was defintely hitting on you. It took you two hours to figure that out?" He said, "I guess so". Men are a never ending source of amusement to me.:-)

"I myself have Asperger's which means I'm quite clueless about interpreting signals from the opposite sex.

I recall a few years ago I was at the deli counter at Safeway, and told the woman behind the counter that I was looking for something lean and low-fat. She said "I'm lean and low-fat." However, I didn't do more than be friendly as there was a family crisis going on at the time that weighed heavily on me.

Besides, I didn't want to make a full of myself at the Safeway I regularly went to."

MIOnline, I would really like to correspond with you as I am currently in a very close relationship with a man that I am pretty sure has Asperger's. I would like to get some feedback as to what I should say or not say to communicate how much I care about him without either embarrassing myself or him. Being very direct does not come naturally to most women. My e mail is my name above followed by @aol.com Thanks, Isabel

Apparently the LW has trouble understanding the meaning of context... what, does he really expect a female employer to avoid eye contact with him during a business meeting? And what was that receptionist supposed to do, wave flags at him? Does he really not understand that flirting is something people do as an expression of interest (meaning that they make eye contact, touch the person of interest, and do things like fiddle with objects in order to linger in the intended's presence, not because they have to, but because they want to), rather than a necessity of communication?

Maybe it's different if you don't speak the language, at least not well. The non-verbal clues are more noticeable. Either that, or Japanese girls made it more obvious when they were interested.

Sure flirting behavior. See it 100 times a day in every comercial, half the tv shows and ads. Done by about half the waitstaff and salesgirls at every bar, resteraunt, that person who wants that seat at the metro.
Which makes it when a woman is expressing actual interest, completely covered up by all the background flirting.
No wonder guys don't see it, women have to become more obvious, but there is a big difference between more obvious and grabbing his crotch.

but all the married/committed men telling stories about how they failed to realize a woman was hitting on them are missing a point: the LW is (i infer) single and looking, which he's apt to do much better at if he keeps his eyes open.

and to this:

Remember that ladies man who we all knew when we where younger? The one who seemed to have the magic touch and always had a beautiful girl all of the time? Was it really because the could talk to the ladies, or was it because that dude simply knew a woman's signals when she sent them?

in a word, yes. (both of your guesses are correct; he knows a woman's signals--or presumes them, perhaps even before she herself is conscious of them--and is bold enough to act upon those pieces of information.)

Does it ever occur to you that these so called signals are outmoded in these "modern" times? Maybe it's time to come up with a new approach. Or not. It begs the question "How's that working out for ya?".

I've never been great at reading signs. Not blind to it like LW but I've had to be clubbed on the head a few times in my life by a gal.

I don't mean to harp on the LW too bad, but taking a thought from Amy's blog today, maybe he should commit genetic suicide?

If you can't pick up some kind of sign from and/or meet a woman for dating in late 2009 in the US, maybe your genes shouldn't go to the next level?

I hope Amy's advice works for him.

How a woman reacts to being or not being interested in a man will have some variation from female to female. It will not be this nice A+B=C equation. Whether that is best or fair or illogical is of no practical value. It simply is how the world is.

To the LW: My take on the root issue of your problem is rejection. You want something approaching a guarantee that she is interested before attempting to 'get to know her'. That is setting up the odds to be very much not in your favor. Every guy experiences rejection. Some advice about the uncertainty of it all is to try to talk to every woman you encounter (maybe about the weather or how great it is that their is a sale on Filet Mignon). No matter if she is 27 or 67 years old, no matter if you are even remotely interested romantically in her or not, whether she is in front of you in the grocery store line or sitting next to you at the gate waiting to catch a plane, try and strike up a casual conversation. It will give you valuable experiences with females you don't know. Valuable experience in terms of that important ability to instantly be able to banter, ability to handle the cold shoulder reaction from her and improve your overall ability to read women.

Glad you reminded me of these signals a few weeks ago. Actually got to use them in my fourth novel too.

And Amy is right, at least in my case, I might not notice the overt signal but if a woman is doing those things I get the idea that she is interested.

"I don't mean to harp on the LW too bad, but taking a thought from Amy's blog today, maybe he should commit genetic suicide? If you can't pick up some kind of sign from and/or meet a woman for dating in late 2009 in the US, maybe your genes shouldn't go to the next level?"
Considering the wholesale lack of compassion and understanding in the world today maybe your's shouldn't go on either.

"Question;

Remember that ladies man who we all knew when we where younger? The one who seemed to have the magic touch and always had a beautiful girl all of the time? Was it really because the could talk to the ladies, or was it because that dude simply knew a woman's signals when she sent them?"

It wasn't because he could talk to the ladies, it was because he LISTENED to them. And was either interested in what they had to say, or did a very good job of pretending to be.

Considering the wholesale lack of compassion and understanding in the world today maybe your's shouldn't go on either.

Too late, I already replicated my DNA database.

And if being snarky on Amy's blog disqualifies one from procreating, I weep for the future.

Unfortunately, some of us males are unable to learn the body language/flirty thing. It is as if people are speaking a language we cannot hear and do not even know exists.
When I was younger, I often had female friends but I never knew what thye wanted from me. My GF at that time often scolded me for being clueless(She brought you a homemade birthday cake and you dont think she is after you?) Another time, a wonderful girl looks at me and says "Do you remember the song that went "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with"? Believe it or not, I really didn't get it. Another time when GF and I started to learn to sail, cute girl in sailing club takes me alone in boat to learn and all the rest of the newbies go in the bigger boat with a guy. Cute girl keeps having trouble with her bikini and tells me people will make jokes about her and me "between the sheets" and I didn't get it.
So, yes, some of us really do need to be hit with a 2x4 and then told exactly what the girl wants.
Fortunately, I have been long married (I chased her)so do not have to worry about this sort of thing often.