Dear Letter Writer: Don't worry about it. Alkon has an elaborate set of rules that apply to dating, which specify precise behavior patterns by men, applied in excruciating detail. In real life, men don't act exactly right at every second, so if you flubbed up, so what.

You liked the girl., You asked her over. She snubbed you. It is crappy, but go on to the next girl.

Alkon may be right in one regard. When you see a nice girl, before you allow a huge painful crush to develop, ask her out first. She snubs, then so what.

BTW If a girl kisses you, go for it. But remember, women are inconsistent, unreliable, fickle, yet covetous, jealous and possessive, small-minded, materialistic and status-conscious.

It might be better to just ring up the "adult" ads on Craigslist for a while until you find something good. Which could be a long wait. That ain't that much out there.

It's because he forgot the fondue!

Before I was done reading the first sentance of the first post in knew who it was.

Im thinking our man of many ass based monikers probaly got his first nickname in the prison showers

Should he have basically written her off the afternoon when she stood him up? You don't ask someone to meet you by the pool, then not show up without calling, unless you were in car accident on the way over. And even then, only if you're rendered comatose.

Patrick, I would be shocked it that actually were the case. More likely she said something like 'oh, I'll probably be at the pool later on' and he said 'oh, I might be there too' and then something came up and she never went. She probably didn't think it was a date because he was too chicken to make it explicitly clear.

And then he ruined it with the 'I know where you live and I'm creepy as hell' text msgs.

"It's because he forgot the fondue!"

And his Seals & Crofts eight-tracks!

I can see two errors in LW's approach:

First, the attempt to win her with the overly sensitive approach doesn't usually work. It makes you a nice guy, or platonic friend material, but you wind up categorized with the same group of people as the lady's female friends.

Second, inviting her up to your condo for drinks, soft music, and a massage was kind of creepy; she might have preferred a more public setting where she'd feel a little less vulnerable while getting to know you. You might have been better off saying, "Hey, I know this club where they play cool jazz and serve great food!" This would make you sound more gallant and less, let's face it, lecherous.

The point has been made, yet I cannot stress this enough: women HATE it when men they aren't already sleeping with offer them massages.

Seriously.

Ew.

Thanks for posting that. I don't want guys to get the wrong idea just because Mr. Needs Attention Really Badly thought this column's comments section would be a good place to troll for it.

Guys: Offering a woman you are not having sex with already a massage makes you look creepy and loserish and clueless about social interaction.

Here's what it looks like from the woman's point of view: I've been waiting and waiting for this guy to ask me out, flirting and giving hints, and when he finally does ask me out he goes from 0 to 120 in 2 seconds.

I'd run in the other direction.

"Here's what it looks like from the woman's point of view: I've been waiting and waiting for this guy to ask me out, flirting and giving hints, and when he finally does ask me out he goes from 0 to 120 in 2 seconds.

I'd run in the other direction."

You forgot to add: "And then complain to my female friends about how I get no dates."

(Not *you*, of course, but women generally.)

A yes, "waiting and waiting" and "flirting and giving hints."

God forbid you should actually SAY something.

Patrick, that's a good question. I reached a point in my dating career where I adopted a rule of "you stand me up one time, without a good explanation, and that's it". It's not clear that the pool thing was really a date. But there's that text that she didn't respond to. I'm not sure what to make of that. I personally think texting is a crappy way to ask someone out, but I'm probably an old fuddy-duddy on that.

At this point I'd probably let it chill for a few weeks. Then, if I'm still interested, maybe try one more time asking her out on a proper date, in the proper way. If she doesn't respond positively to that, write it off.

LW, if you are still hoping to have some kind of relationship with this woman, my advice would be to call (not text) her and say flat out, "Hey, I realize that the massage offer probably came off as coming on to strong. Sorry about that. Would you like to (suitable public outing) this weekend instead?" If she says no, do as Amy says and move on.

I have a friend who does stuff like this. I'm constantly having to edit his e-mails to women because he goes overboard with the flowery language too - like, after the first date, he'll write some glowing commentary about how her voice flows like a river and her figure is that of a Greek goddess.

He's an ivy-league-educated doctor, so this is sort of his style of writing and thinking, but it comes off, as Dawn says, like going from 0 to 120 in 2 seconds.

This is ALWAYS creepy, guys. Even if you're dancing around at home, so excited by this girl, be chill.

lovelysoul: you edit a guy's email to his dates? Isn't that kind of creepy?

I mean: if I had a girlfriend who's best male buddy was fixing her emails to me? Yuck! I'm trying to date her, not him.

Give him advice, sure. Edit the emails, or even read them, no way!

lol. Well, maybe. But he needs help. These aren't intimate messages, just after the first date kind of thing.

He kissed her and she didn't resist. Then it was I'll see you at the pool and then nothing. Maybe he's a crappy kisser and that was all she needed to know.

Lovelysoul, did your friend miss out on the day his literature class discussed Shakespeare's poetry? "My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun..." ;p

No, that's the kind of stuff he writes...which would be lovely if he was actually in a relationship with the woman, not just after one date. Same thing as a massage. As much as you want to hurry things along and be that intimate, DON'T.

Once you come off as "too strong" or "too creepy" it's over. You do not have another chance. Do not apologize and ask her on another date. Absorb all this great advice and use it with the next cute girl at the pool.

Now, if weeks or months from now cute girl #1 sees you talking to another cute girl, she might wonder if she blew you off too quickly. If she starts the flirtatious behavior again, you are back to square one, and can proceed very slowly.

Regarding the pool, it is possible that she didn't see it as plans made, but merely a "hey maybe I'll see you..."
I was just recently dating a guy and it was going really well until a few days ago he told me he was taking his daughter for a walk in the park, and when I replied I too was going for a walk at some point that day he said (via text) wouldn't it be nice if we ran into each other. No plan, no time - to run into him would have been coincidence.
Well, since I didn't see him he got all weird and insecure (strange text messages after that) and then he pulled the disappearing act. WTF? I don't like people going weird on me if there were no plans made!

And Sphincter man, you sound bitter. There are a lot of great guys and girls out there, but if you can't find any (or many) great girls it's because they sense your negativity and are hiding till you've passed by them.

I saw a movie recently in which the female protagonist received a text from a guy she liked asking if she would be free later. She happily related the news to a couple of friends. Luckily, these friends wasted no time in cluing her in: "Honey, texting is the new bootie call."

If he doesn't have enough testicular fortitude to actually speak with you, he isn't worth dating.

And I couldn't agree more strongly with all the women here about the ickiness of the relaxing massage text.

Do you think she inferred that from my offer of a "stress reliever," and is that where I went wrong?

Yes - but.

It was probably too late. You were already at the kissing stage, you must have had some idea whether she was really hot for you or not - "I even kissed her, and she didn't resist" doesn't sound like she was trying to tear your clothes off (I mean that metaphorically, even when you both don't want to move too fast the desire to comes through pretty clearly). It sounds more like she was thinking "I'll give in to the kissing then I can go home" and since then she's dumped you. Tough luck and she hasn't handled it well, but them's the breaks.

You've got two choices now - suck it up and move on, or obsess over it and replay every move in your mind for a few months/years. Either is fine, I tend to choose the latter too - but in future don't go with "dinner, but wait there's more!", if you want to push it further after a standup just go with a simple invite and keep your 'hands-on' approach quiet until it's appropriate. Usually you'll know when.

The thing is, if the woman isn't already sleeping with you, she's going to find the massage offer creepy -- unless it comes as a spontaneous (or seemingly spontaneous) idea in the context of hanging out.

Seemingly spontaneous? Amy, are you recommending player tactics? It's a good idea but hard to pull off convincingly...

And I couldn't agree more strongly with all the women here about the ickiness of the relaxing massage text.

Right?? Time for a new email address!
Seriously. The LW reminds me of the guy I dated a long time ago, who said to me as he dropped me off at my house "please don't let this be a one-time thing - I have such great plans for us!" Huh? I don't think so. It was just a dinner date. The guy scared me. He was just a tad intense. o.O

"I saw a movie recently in which the female protagonist received a text from a guy she liked asking if she would be free later. She happily related the news to a couple of friends. Luckily, these friends wasted no time in cluing her in: 'Honey, texting is the new bootie call.'"

It's also the new "I'm working in an area where I can't have a private phone call right now, but would still like to make plans to see you and since we are in the 21st century I thought I would make use of the technology available" call. Just sayin'

"It's also the new "I'm working in an area where I can't have a private phone call right now, but would still like to make plans to see you and since we are in the 21st century I thought I would make use of the technology available" call. Just sayin'"

It's also the new "I'm texting you from work because my preferred plan for tonight fell through and it's too late to get anyone else" call.

This and Flynne's comments remind me of a guy I went out with about 10 years ago, if for no other reason than the inherent creepiness factor.

We had one date, which was more of a "let's hang out" than an actual date with a plan. After not hearing from him for several days, he called me after midnight on a work night (when I had to be up and at 'em at 5:30 am) to tell me that he really cared about me, and wanted to be with me. He was rambling about kids and a house and where we would live.
He went on to say that I was, of course, going to have to change myself so that I was more "appropriate." At the time, I had platinum hair with orange tips, 11 piercings (mostly in the ears), and two tattoos. After one date, he wanted me to take out my piercings, dye my hair brown, and get my tattoos removed.
I can't remember exactly what I responded with, but it's almost certainly not printable....

Dammit, I have the Rubber Ducky song from Sesame Street stuck in my head. I think Little Richard sang it. At least that's how I hear it now.

Hmmm. Angsty-angsty weirdness. Ok. My turn.

I went out for drinks a few months back with a girl I work with. We'd only met at work two or three times, but I liked her. Figured it was worth a shot.

The night proceeded rather nicely. We had a few drinks. We started getting very close - leaning into and on each other, walking from one pub to another with our arms linked. At the end of the night I went back to hers and - using Amy's advice - used a quick break in the loo to look myself in the eyes and convince myself that girls liked when a shy guy (me) showed he had the balls to make a move.

We kissed.

Very shortly after that, she told me that she was very sorry, that she was confused, that she'd just come out of a relationship and didn't know what she wants.

I accepted that we didn't know each other very well, wondered to myself if I'd maybe moved too fast and resolved to spend some time with her getting to know her. We went out a few more times, went for drinks, spent a day wandering about at the zoo, that kind of thing. Eventually I asked her if I was likely to get a second chance - she knew I liked her; was there any chance she felt the same way? No. Never, I'm afraid. I pulled back from our relationship, feeling somewhat hurt and confused. I thought she needed time, when actually I simply mistook us holding hands and kissing for her actually liking me. Silly boy.

Eight or so months later on and we're back to being friendly. We occasionally go for drinks. We get on really well. I recently stayed over at hers - we had a few in the pub and then headed to hers, put on a movie and fell asleep together in her bed. Nothing happened - we were watching a movie and fell asleep. We both woke up in the middle of the night, rearranged ourselves in the bed more comfortably and that was that. Morning; no awkwardness that I could sense, but not really anything else, either.

So:

First 'date', we hold hands, we link arms, she invites me to hers, we kiss. Sadly, she's confused, she doesn't know what she wants, no-one knows what's going on.

Shortly-thereafter 'date', she says she doesn't think there's a relationship in it for us.

Recent eight-months-later 'date', she asks me in, takes me to her room and we sleep together in her bed.

Question: What. The. Actual. Fuck?

Advice genuinely and greatly appreciated. I really like this girl. Massively. But I don't think I do the creepy thing and I'm willing to let it go and move on if that's what I should be doing. Yet it feels like I'm getting positive signals from her. There aren't many plutonic girlfriends of mine that I've kissed or slept in a bed with. What do I do?

Congrats donald your the emotional equivelent of a eunich

Ok. When I said 'genuinely and greatly appreciated', I anticipated something less cryptic than being called 'the emotional equivelent of a eunich'.

Are you saying... actually, what are you saying? I don't get it.

Donald - I feel for you. Though I'm a woman, I've been in the same boat in the past: thinking if I waited long enough and was a good friend, something would happen. So here's my take: she's either spending time with you because you give her the attention she wants and she doesn't have to take on the responsibility of being in a relationship, or she thinks you and she are on the same friendship page. It's likely a bit of both. If she told you she'd never feel that way about you, take her at her word. It sounds like you like her too much to be just friends with her, so do yourself a favor, and back away (quickly). I'm doing that now with a guy I've had feelings for for awhile. It hurts to acknowledge you feel more than the other person, but it happens to everyone. If you keep down this road, you are prolonging the agony and creating a pattern for future relationships. Keep it friendly and professional at work, and don't hang out after. Trust me, there's always someone else down the road.

meg, thanks for the feedback, though it is almost 100% not what I wanted it to be. I recognise it as making sense and it seems to come from exactly the same vein as all the other hard-hitting-but-ultimately-right advice that comes across this forum.

I guess I'll put it into action from today. :(

Donald, I'm not going to sugarcoat this. If things played out exactly the way you described, then it seems to me that something happened that first night - right before she was suddenly "confused" - that changed her mind. "Confused" is an easy way out for people. But she wasn't sounding confused before, so my guess is that she didn't feel the chemistry when you kissed.

I've had dates, where I really expected there would be chemistry, but when things got a little physical, it just wasn't there. Nobody's fault.

It could be that you're a bad kisser, but no one can really assess that. If you have any exs you could ask, then do so. But, usually, it takes more than just a bad kiss to turn a woman off.

Afterwards, you let her put you in the "friend" category, which, as guys here will attest, is pretty much the kiss of death to any romance. Those only work out in romantic movies. Trust me, if a girl sleeps with you platonically, you're practically in the "gay friend" category, which is even worse.

Received, understood and appreciated.

New request: can everyone else, from now on, just sugarcoat things? :) I'm suddenly beginning to feel like the biggest loser ever.

:/

Oh no, Donald. Don't feel that way. This happens to all of us. Everyone gets rejected. Often you never know why. It could be that she's still hung up on someone else, and she was trying to move on, but she thought of him, and knew she couldn't yet. Or maybe she's gay. There are a million reasons that have NOTHING to do with you.

But if someone doesn't seem into you, then move on. That's a life lesson we all have to learn the hard way. If someone's into you, you won't have to guess what's going on. You'll know.

If someone's into you, you won't have to guess what's going on. You'll know.

I live and hope. :)

Donald - you're not a loser, just unlucky. You don't come across as creepy and from what you say you weren't creepy. I agree with the readings here about the chemistry just being wrong or it being about her not you.

This is one of those embarrassing things that happen to us all. It's about you being human, not about being a loser.

That's appreciated, Antonia. Thank you. 'Human and unlucky' puts me better light. :)

I guess I just have a lot of living, loving and learning to do yet.

Donald - don't we all *snort*.

Sack up Donald. Being able to look at the mess you wished could have been a romantic relationship, see it for what it is, *learn* from it, and move on with your head held high and eyes forward (looking for the next girl) is *exactly* what it will take to get the next girl.

Your not a loser if you learn from this. The advice here was solid - listen to it and apply it. When you get mixed signals from a woman, it's almost never about you. And even if it is, you behave as though it's not. It really is like lovely said - when they are into you, you will know it - because that woman will make SURE you know it.

A couple of other tid-bits . . .

1. Never ask a woman if you have a chance with her romantically. If you have to ask, you probably don't. Worse - if you *did* have a chance, by asking her, you just gave that chance away. It's kind of a submissive move, and will rarely increase your chances with your romantic target. It's a bad habit to form. Break it early.

2. Save sleeping with your romantic target for after sex. Trust me on this one. If you are horizontal with a woman you are interested in (and by that point your actions should have made it loud and clear that you are interested) and do are not upping the physical contact quotient, she will wonder what's wrong with you. Or WORSE - will wonder what is wrong with her! Either way, you don't want to send that signal.

Good luck!

Ick. I hate my crappy grammer. How about this:

If you are horizontal with a woman you are interested in (and by that point your actions should have made it loud and clear that you are interested) and are not upping the physical contact quotient, she will wonder what's wrong with you.

The Goddess writes: Guys: Offering a woman you are not having sex with already a massage makes you look creepy and loserish and clueless about social interaction.

This reminds me of Amy's column several years ago, "A Man and His Kneads..." about some creepy guy who would attend parties with his wife, but would go around giving massages to all the ladies. When she asked him to stop, he complained that he felt like he was in handcuffs because he couldn't be his usual warm, friendly self.

Yeah, right...he was just trying to be friendly, the masher. Amy wisely advised the wife to stick to her guns and tell her pervert husband to keep his hands to himself.

"I texted her, inviting her over for "drinks, soft music, and a nice relaxing massage to ease the stress of the work week." No response. Amy, I just meant a back rub, clothes on, like I once gave a female friend. I've never thought of a massage as having sexual connotations"

Oh please, either you're in the closet, asexual, or you really wanted to bang her silly. I never realized men actually existed who pretended such obviously sexual interests were non-sexual, as if it's something to apologize for. The irony is if you'd been more overt about your intentions, she probably would be more interested; clearly she had been interested initially. Take this as a lesson learned. With women like this you pretty much have to strike while the iron is hot. She wasn't put off because you came across as being sexually interested in her; my guess is she was more put off by your unwillingness to act on your own interests and your seeming apologetic nature for them ... she gave you all the signals, you didn't respond, you're out the door and she moves on to the next one. (If you were really looking for something serious though, then don't worry, this wasn't relationship material, at least not at this 'phase' she's in.)

And whaaaat - you gave a female 'friend' a backrub without even having any sexual thoughts? Come on, I don't buy that, unless the friend was really ugly I don't think this is even possible - any red-blooded male would've felt at least a twinge of engorgement. That's just normal.

"I'm suddenly beginning to feel like the biggest loser ever."

Don't be silly, this doesn't make you a loser. All this crap is normal, trust me, everyone goes through these 'learning phases' at one stage or another, some just later than others. Check that low-self-esteem nonsense at the door, permanently.

"I'm suddenly beginning to feel like the biggest loser ever."

Don't be silly, this doesn't make you a loser. All this crap is normal, trust me, everyone goes through these 'learning phases' at one stage or another, some just later than others. Check that low-self-esteem nonsense at the door, permanently.

Noted. To be honest, although I think there's a definite element of low self-esteem floating around in my head, that sentence was perhaps slightly flippant. I'm not quite so self-deprecating in real life and I was mostly just feeling a bit foolish, given the sound and - with hindsight! - obvious advice I was given.

I'm working on 'positive me'. Calvin and Hobbes helps. It's nice to be reminded of how utterly perfect the world can be if you look at it with the right attitude. :)

"Question: What. The. Actual. Fuck?"

Hey, men have been going 'WTF' and scratching their heads for centuries trying to figure out the logic behind the way women think and behave. At some point you have to accept that none of it really makes any rational sense, throw your arms up in the air, and just try enjoy your life in spite of their whacky randomness.

"But I don't think I do the creepy thing"

You probably by and large don't, but we live in a society where culturally, people have become over-hyper-paranoid about the concept of "creepy", and it's also just the "new" general insult that people throw around to feel better about themselves. Don't play that game, you can't win - and never take it personally, it's not 'you'.

"Yet it feels like I'm getting positive signals from her."

Some women just mess men around and keep them on a string because it feeds their own egos to have a 'fan club'. Bonus 'ego points' if they get a man to behave in a way they can call 'creepy' or to say they have a 'stalker' (of course in 99.9% of cases it'll be clear they don't actually feel any threat, as the word "creepy" should imply). Again, learn to recognize these behaviors, and that it's 'not you', and walk away. So maybe you are getting positive signals, maybe not. Whatever, who cares, it's all just BS isn't it; best just to do your own thing and enjoy yourself.

"Whatever, who cares, it's all just BS isn't it; best just to do your own thing and enjoy yourself."

And take anything I say with a pinch of salt; I'm pretty jaded and cynical. And single at the moment - but frankly, happier than ever.

I have on several occasions used the "oh, my back is so sore...if only SOMEONE could rub this knot out!" line on guys, followed by the "oh damn, my boobs fell out into your hands!" move. It's always worked.

But yes, this is creepy. Creepy why? Because like I said above, a back rub is usually not just a back rub. 'Platonic' as he may have felt this text to be (and if he did, he doesn't understand the point of offering someone you're interested in a backrub) it comes across as an ueber-lame attempt at a booty text.

http://www.viruscomix.com/page458.html

Saying you'll see someone at the pool is the same as saying you'll see them at the grocery store, or in the mall... if/when you bump into each other. It's def not a date. LW threw this in to make it look like he was rebuffed further, when, in fact, she was probably just making convo. LW's over-dramatization of this event sheds light on his personality.

Also, studies have been done on our revved-up techno world of emailing, texting, & IM-ing, and it has been said that today's youth, who text more than any past group before them, have fewer "people skills" than any past generation, and that their level of people skills will continue to decline as long as the non-face-to-face communication continues. ie: when you have something important to ask/tell someone, it's best to at least pick up the phone or knock on their door, make direct eye contact, and speak to them face-to-face.

I agree, as a woman, the ick factor of the massage offer was off the scale.

Lovelysoul hit the nail on the head with her comments re: friend & gay friend categories... i 100% agree!

I just recently had a guy with 5 lines of IM on a dating site ask what part of town I lived in and if I would like a foot rub. No names exchanged, no rapport building, nothing. He claimed he was just being friendly. This column really needs to be required reading for anyone seeking a relationship.

*Sigh*....

Railmeat so hit the nail on the head w/ his(a him I think from the icky moniker) tidbits 1 & 2.
As a somewhat aggressive female, I often got those passive types liking me and that is such a turn off! If you have to ask me if you can kiss me-you can't! If you just kiss me, I just may kiss you back.
If you ask if there is a chance for us, if there was one, there probably isn't anymore.
Donald, you sound nice but you were in her bed and didn't put the moves on her so move on-you lost that one, there will be another.
I am so glad to be getting married and off the market-it was a lot of work, a lot of fun, a lot of heartache, etc.
My "to-be" is more passive that I would like but is working on it and I am working on being a bit less overpowering. Calm, quiet dude from England, loud boisterous chick from NJ and somehow making it work b/c inside we want the same things, even if our outward parts seem so different.

icky moniker? icky???

Clearly not a sailor . . .

: )

Are these GUYS that write in for real?

Or just utterly clueless?

At least you gave him a nice direct reply.

Sort of on topic. I think I broke one of your asking women for contact information rules the other day. I asked my waitress for her e-mail address instead of her number. Closest 'excuse' for that was I had forgotten her difficult name (she is Chinese, recent immigrant) and my guess was right, her e-mail was first name, last name.

Unfortunately, there was a year at the end of that. If it is her year of birth, she is way on the young side for me, but old enough to drink.

We did exchange e-mail.

A different odd thing happened later that made me laugh. Will send that to you in an e-mail.

Way off topic: I have been feeling your publishing pain for a couple of weeks. My series is coming out in paperback as soon as I get proofs approved. Down side, my file mangling has been delaying that for a couple of weeks already.

I don't think I'll ever truly tolerate the "guy should always make the first move" deal you advocate Amy. I know it works in many if not most cases but I'm so bloody tired of this expectation of the guy taking all the risks in dating. Then having to listen on and on to the feminist and/or traditionalist women party line about how horrible men are. The ones the really cheese me off though are the aggresive women who years later come back and say, "I just couldn't stand him anymore, he was such a wimp". Yet, thats exactly what they were advertising for. One was a stereotypical grrl power attorney for a county DA, even spouting "and some guys can't handle a woman who has her own opinion". Her lawyer side ruled all her actions, she had to be in control and everything seemed to be a competition.

linny said:
"As a somewhat aggressive female, I often got those passive types liking me and that is such a turn off! If you have to ask me if you can kiss me-you can't! If you just kiss me, I just may kiss you back.
If you ask if there is a chance for us, if there was one, there probably isn't anymore."

At which point I'm now guilty of sexual assault in some gals minds and could end up on a sex offenders list.

Sio said: "At which point I'm now guilty of
sexual assault in some gals minds and could
end up on a sex offenders list."

Oh, please! Stop whining. We're not talking about grabbing some woman off the street and planting one on her while she fights and kicks. It's actually not all that hard to see if a woman is into kissing you without actually asking her (and yeah, being outright asked is nearly always a huge turnoff). Every guy should know how to do that before he's out of the 10th grade, for Pete's sake.

Do you need step-by-step instructions? Apparently you do, so here goes.

Stand close. Make eye contact and hold it for a second. Brush her arm or hand or back. (NOT her ass or breast, and for god's sake don't insert your hand under her blouse. Oh, you'd be surprised.) Lean in, and if she doesn't recoil, flinch or otherwise indicate that she finds you repulsive, give her an initial, light but lingering, non-tongue kiss (because there is no bigger turn-off than having some dude coming at you with his mouth open and tongue out unless you're good and ready for it). Note -- this initial kiss is not a peck, but it's also not sloppy and wet. Linger but don't lick, or at least not yet. Got it so far?

If she doesn't want you to kiss her, she'll pull back at either the arm brush or as you lean in for that initial kiss. See? You've kind of asked her without the annoying question part! And she's had an opportunity to accept or politely decline (by flinching, pulling back or saying no). Isn't that neat? No cries of rape, no annoying wimpy questions. Everyone wins.

As to whether you give her a deeper kiss and get all tongue-y on her -- if she returns your initial kiss and your touch, go ahead and give it a try. If she stands there like a stone or immediately pulls back after the kiss, leave it alone.

If you need further instructions on getting to second base, you're going to have to pay for lessons. I'm done for the day.

To clarify, asking her on a date should be outright, specific and verbal: "Would you like to go for a glass of wine on Saturday night?", not "maybe I'll see you at the pool later." Asking for a kiss should be subtle and non-verbal.

And that, my friend, is how you eventually get laid.

Which brings the question"When's the last time Amy got laid?".

And Gail is exactly right.

Changing topic slightly Amy, your new column is linked on your front page but doesn't appear in the list of columns. This is still the most recent one.

I'm a new soldier in the Alkon Army and am loving both the banter and advice on this site. I agree...this post in particular should be required reading for all men in the dating world.

Dating and mating IS a funny dance. It may not seem worth it sometimes, but it beats being a hermit. Everyone dances a little different but the basics are the same and hard-wired. Don't be a creep, mind your manners, and it's OK to make a mistake or look like a fool now and then. You'll eventually find a partner you like dancing with more often than not. :-)

I'm not sure why (maybe global warming or soy products or something) but many men seem to have developed this thin-skinned ego they bring into the social scene. I was guilty of it myself early on until I got helpful advice and enough rejection to develop a thicker skin and get over myself. I still make mistakes and am still learning, but I've met some beautiful, amazing people in the process. That's the point.

Whether it's "grow a pair" or "man up" or whatever the cliche' du jour, women seem to prefer men who ACT like men. That doesn't mean being aggressive to cover that little boy ego or growing a Patrick Dempsey crop o facial hair, it means being confident but respectful and so many other things already written about here by wiser people than myself.

It's not an exact science. Hell, even the heroes in Disney movies were frustrated and confounded by their love interest(s)...but they lived a fuller life for having done so and got what they wanted in the end. Nuff said.

As for this part, "...I saw him at the iPod display and saw how cute he was and flirted my ass off -- to the point where he would have had to have an IQ of 25 to not know I wanted him to ask me out." Damn, I've got to hang out by the iPod's more often! Not everyone gets as lucky as Gregg did, but it's more likely to happen if you're open to it.

Speaking as another 6'4" guy from downtown Detroit, better manners will get you more offers or at least improve the odds.

Welcome to the Alkon School of Hard Knocks! Excellent first post. Glad to have you onboard!

> If you don't like it, there's the jar of vaseline and the box of Kleenex.
The kleenex, ok, I know what that's for. But the vaseline?

Gail was actually quite helpful. Some people (myself included) do need such lessons for whatever reason. Bear in mind that whatever practices and ideas are standard fare here in the US, not everyone comes from that.

What some people here consider flirting is utterly incomprehensible for a variety of people. This is not simplified with the expectation that people be polite, professional, and overt at all (including personal) times.

Specializing in a technical field or one that requires constant professional behavior AND academic study aggravates that. Some people just need more overt flirting or conversation.

Ummm, Brennan - if you're going to be a single guy for some time, you can incur - how shall we put this - the occasional friction burn. I assume that's what the vaseline is for.