Kick the son-of-a-bitch to the curb and get some self respect. Love yourself enough to know that you will not be someone's slice of cake. You want to be the whole cake!

Does he really want an open relationship? Or does he want an open relationship for himself and not you? As stated above, the letter writer should ditch this guy and find someone who shares the same outlook/values as herself.

There is an argument to be made for the open relationship.

Speaking very generally, one should have as many lovers (L) as ones finances (F), social skills (S), libido (I) and lifestyle circumstances (C) allows.

L = f(F,S,I,C).

Of course, L is a function of time because the independent variables (F,S,I and C) are a function of time too.

For most people, most of the time, L is less than (sadly) or equal to 1.

This has nothing to do with morality but is more a sad commentary about the difficulty associated with achieving the right values of F, S and C.

I was in an open relationship for two years. I am now in a monogamous one. A (healthy) open relationship is NOT something you bully another person into. And it is NOT some sort of weird compromise between what you *really* want and your fear of losing the person you are with.

Amy gets more info then is posted in the letter, and while the lady does seem to have self esteem issues from what little is in the letter I dont see the guy as being a jerk.

He wants something different, she wants him to change, and he is defensive about it.

Thanks for the spot-on advice, Amy. You raise a compelling case for pursuing an open relationship. But at the same time, you respect the woman's convictions for not wanting one. In fact, you show more respect for the woman's needs than she herself does. "Is there something wrong with me, for not wanting an open relationship?" Ah, no. You want what you want. Kick the manipulative jerk to the curb, and find someone who respects what you want.

Lujlp, I think the guy would be more firmly in the "not a jerk" column if he were to, as Amy said, be willing to move on if it is such a big deal to him to have an open relationship. Emotionally healthy people do that rather than try to bully their partners into something they don't want. This seems go be just a more extreme version of last week's letter about the guy who didn't like his girlfriend's scent. To be in a relationship without needing to surgically remove your backbone, you have to figure out what your dealbreakers are. I, personally, do not see anything morally wrong with an open relationship, as long as both partners have discussed it and given consent. The LW is uncomfortable with her boyfriend sharing his bits with other women. No one should have to consent to something like that just to be in a relationship.

My girlfriend and I had tried an open relationship for a while, but all of the guys she wanted to sleep with kept dying in mysterious accidents.

Lujlp, I would agree with you if the LW hadn't said "We can't discuss the issue because he gets so defensive and riled up, civil conversation is impossible. He accuses me of looking down on him and finding him "disgusting," which I don't. He almost has me convinced that the only successful relationships are the open ones, and that I'm one of a minority of people who want monogamy."

Besides the fact that he has his facts all wrong, he, he uses guilt to get his way. He spends all his time trying to convince her that she is wrong, and making her feel like the bad guy. He wants her to do what he wants with no regard for what she wants. That is manipulation and that makes him a jerk.

I also get the impression that the LW's boyfriend wants an "open relationship" because that way, he gets to play the field and feel very secure that his girlfriend will be home waiting for him because he knows that she won't stray. He wants, as Amy said, his cake and a bunch of other peoples cake too. I would be willing to bet that if he actually found a girl who did agree to an open relationship, jealousy would take over and he would be singing a different tune. He wants to be able to sleep around, but doesn't want his partner to do so. And, because he knows that she won't,he thinks he can get her to agree to it anyway, feeling secure that he will be the only one doing it. he will get the best of both worlds and she will get nothing. But that is just an assumption on my part based on what I get from this letter and from my experiance with guys like this.

Regardless, it seems to me that these two are just not compatable. Neither of them are wrong for what they want (the boyfriend is certainly wrong for how he is handling it though...they both just want different things. They need to go thier separate ways and find someone that can give them what they want instead of spending all thier time trying to change their current partners into what they want.

Not compatible.

I know plenty of poly folks, and the BF here should go join that community.

Most people are NOT poly, and there are also vast amounts of people who DON'T cheat. Go find one.

We can't discuss the issue because he gets so defensive and riled up, civil conversation is impossible. He accuses me of looking down on him and finding him "disgusting," which I don't.

Well, she should. If the shit fits, he should wear it.

He almost has me convinced that the only successful relationships are the open ones

It would have been funny to see him tell that to my grandparents, who were monogamously together for 69 and 1/2 years before they passed.

Say good-bye to him, LW. It's all well and good to want to be in a relationship, but as was said above, you don't compromise your backbone to do it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: You need to grow a backbone where your wishbone is. Life is too short to live up (or down) to someone else's standards.

The fact that the LW even had to W the L makes me believe she's gonna cave in order to keep the guy.

Be careful what you wish for. A guy I know wanted an open relationship. The girl he was living with said okay, if that's what you want. Only problem was, it turned out to be much easier for her to find a playmate than it was for him. Surprise!

They broke up. Another surprise!

Prickley, that happens a LOT. Especially if the girl is bi.

Yeah, I know. I tell my husband, in the seventies it was the guys that kept preaching about "free love", "if it feels good, do it", blahblahblah. So us wimmin got liberated and jumped into the pool, baby.

Not our fault if it turned out a lot of those cowboys were "all hat, no cattle".

There are so few single, datable men who are not terrified of getting a woman prego or being falsely accused of abuse that she will stay with him.

I'm sure if this LW wrote to Feministing she would get a different answer to her question that will be more to her liking. Because, after all, having all the sex you can with no accountability or responsibility is what Feminism is all about.

Opps...I mean abortion is what feminism is all about...my bad.

I remember not too far out of college, a party-time acquaintance, who 'had' to marry his HS girlfriend, proudly announced to us guys that he & the Mrs. had "decided to have an open relationship." I'm sure it was pretty 1-way, based not only on her sad look at hearing this joyous news, but since he still looked like a jock, and she ...well, still looked more than pregnant 5 years after childbirth (shame - sweet girl). I was just about to say to him - strictly for a reaction - "Then you don't mind if I nail her?" - but luckily realized first that he was the kind of guy who would have punched my lights out. How sad ...

[change of topic]

This is off-topic, but I wanted to post it for all who felt entitled to give Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie a hard time based on the spurious reportings of a truly-awful newspaper that they were going to break up (and had the temerity to try and do it in a civilised way, rather than hauling everyone repeatedly through the courts):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/feb/09/angelina-jolie-news-of-the-world-brangelina

I'd also like to mention for everyone who has jumped on the "oh but these people are awful" bandwagon that Angelina Jolie just donated $1,000,000 dollars to Haiti.

I'm not declaring these guys paragons of virtue - far from it - but I would genuinely love to know where the unabashed hatred comes from. My opinion? Petty jealousy.

[/change of topic]

The key to successful poly and open relationships is:

If you don't want one, don't be in one

The LW clearly doesn't want to be in one, and the guy is being an ass about it, so this is clearly just incompatible and she should send him on his way. Not that he sounds like someone who could actually successfully have a poly or open relationship, he sounds way too selfish to be in one. But that's another matter.

Oh yeah Mike, it's all the fault of women for actually wanting to be treated as real people! OMG!

The only thing LW needs to know is they aren't for her. Period. Therefor, neither is this guy.

And the majority of people still want monogamy, even men. Whether they manage it long term is one thing, but it's an ideal worth shooting for. If people who cheated spent that time/energy on their spouse, they'd have better marriages.

Shock horror - guy wants to screw other women while having a sure thing at home when he lucks out at the bar. News at eleven.

The sad thing is that as others have pointed out, most likely if she agreed she would have more offers than she could handle, while he would be scratching around in the "last drinks please" crowd. Guys always think there will be an endless stream of women when they're unattached, but I can see jealousy setting in real fast here.

Hell, she should take him up on it just for fun.

But really, yes I agree - if it's not for her then don't let someone pressure you into it. The majority of people are monogamous, not necessarily because they want to be, but because they want their partner to be, and it's part of the deal. I don't agree with you momof4 - I don't think cheating is good, but it's fear of losing your current relationship that holds most people back, not a desire for monogamy. Poly and open relationships tend to be unstable (one partner falls in love with another and gets jealous, etc), but that doesn't mean they're not desirable in the 'forbidden fruit' kind of way.

Aw, Ltw, you said what I was going to say, and better, too! Yep, he thinks he'll get laid a whole hell of a lot, but the only action he's likely to get is at closing time when everyone's got their beer goggles on.

This fellow sounds awfully manipulative, but she doesn't need to let him manipulate her. The fact that she asked Ms. Alkon in the first place tells me she hasn't quite bought the nonsense he's been trying to sell. Good for her.

The other point that nobody has brought up yet: The LW helped him down the road to manhood a bit. Enough that now he wants to go exercise his new skills and leave his teacher behind. I suppose that's human nature, but it's still pretty darn unappreciative. I saw a case like this once (other way around): a friend of mine was dating this gal who, well, she wasn't really that attractive, at least not to my eye. Her face was kind of a funny shape; she had a lot of skin problems, and she needed to drop a few pounds. And she didn't seem to know how to look good; she never wore makeup and wore frumpy clothes. I was never sure what attracted them to each other, but they were a nice couple.

One day they were in a car accident and her face was badly injured. She spent months in recovery, but as part of the deal, she got worked on by a top-notch plastic surgeon. And when they got done with her, her face was movie-star gorgeous. Plus she lost 25 lbs. on a regulated hospital diet. That gave her confidence, and she went out and got a new wardrobe, got someone to show her how to do makeup, and just generally did all the things to make herself attractive that she never did before. And during all those months of therapy and recovery, he was right there with her.

So you probably guessed the ending: after she fully recovered, she unceremoniously dumped him and set out in search of greener pastures. That's pretty much what is happening to the LW, except that instead of being dumped outright, her boyfriend is trying to put her on a shelf. LW, here's what you need to do: Remembering the old adage that the best revenge is living well, if your boyfriend can improve his life skills and then take them out to seek his fortune, then so can you. Are there aspects of yourself you'd like to improve? Something you've always wanted to try but never had the nerve to? Now's the time. If your BF won't dump you, you dump him, and then make your life all about yourself for the next year or so. Work on something you think would improve your odds in a relationship (or elsewhere), and then you go out and try your new skills. And two years from now if you and your hot new BF run into your ex wandering around by himself somewhere, well darn shucks.

Uh, Mike? I've been a woman. Heck, I've been a woman for 51 years now. And while I've been off the dating market for quite a while, I can say with some authority that your supposed male terror of abuse accusations or getting women pregnant didn't much interfere with me getting laid when I was single. Indeed, it's my experience that faced with the opportunity to get laid by a passably attractive woman, most men lose all cognizance of the reproductive function of sex, at least temporarily.

You had sex with most men? Wow, I am impressed.

Not. It is common for women to assume the male sluts they bed represent all men.

Dana, does that mean there was a time when you were NOT a woman? What were you before you were a woman?

Of course, you're correct about men being non-selective if the opportunity presents itself...but...

Men know the difference between a "passable" woman who they can have sex with, and someone who wants to take them for their money. It is well known in guy circles, at least from my experiences, that the easy ones who are also looking for a piece are the safest ones to play with...

The ones to be wary of are the 35-40 childless/no prospect women. Stay away from them as they are licking their baby-making chops, especially if you make a good salary!

I know several men where I work that are absolutely terrified of dating, terrified of losing all their money, careers, house, car, dog....all because there is no equality in divorce/child custody laws. Why take a chance when you can find someone like you out there with no strings attached?

"but it's fear of losing your current relationship that holds most people back, not a desire for monogamy. "

Or, a desire for their partner to be monogamous, and realizing that reciprocating that is part of the deal. Most of us who've been around lose the desire to keep going around. I'm quite content at home now, but racked up quite a score in college. Even if Dh was cool with it, I just wouldn't want to be bothered with the work required.

Amy, this one is near the top of my "favorites" of yours columns.

Perfect advice too.

"Or, a desire for their partner to be monogamous, and realizing that reciprocating that is part of the deal."

That's a nicer way of expressing it momof4, fear was a poor choice of word on my part. But it doesn't change much what I was saying - that monogamy is in effect a deal or compromise, not a natural state of being. Both sides agree to forgo other opportunities so that their partner will do the same - which is the real goal. It doesn't mean that they don't want to sometimes.

old rpm daddy - unfortunately, I tend to phrase things well when I've thought and done them myself before. Not quite like the LW's bf (thank goodness), but I have quit a perfectly good relationship because I thought there would be women galore once single - older and wiser now. But thank you.

"He accuses me of looking down on him and finding him "disgusting," which I don't." That's his feeling and he's trying to put it off on you.
He needs someone to tell him not to so he can do it anyway. Even though you're not playing codependant(at least in this way) he's imagining you are anyway. That anger that's really for mommy is being directed at you.

He accuses me of looking down on him and finding him "disgusting," which I don't.

Dave, I doubt he really feels like she thinks he's disgusting. It's a classic manipulator technique, put your partner on the defensive by making these accusations and she'll fall all over herself trying to make it up to you. Abusers often do this by claiming their partners were flirting with the dry cleaner or someone, then the partner stops talking to the dry cleaner, then any man she doesn't know, then before she realizes it she's isolated from everyone else but him (I use "she" here because these manipulators tend to be male, but I don't know if it applies to female abusers as well). And I count separating one's partner from the rest of the world as emotional abuse. Not at all saying that this guy is an abuser, but he seems to be (clumsily) trying to manipulate her into the kind of relationship he wants.

Over the past 30-odd years I've known a fair number of couples in "open marriages," and couples where one partner had an affair that came to light.

Some of the latter category of couples' marriages survived, though battered for sure.

Of the first category, the failure rate was 100 percent. One of the breakups was surprising, a couple who had a long-term "relaxed" marriage that seemed tres European broke up... the word "explosively" comes to mind.

It's a small statistical sample, but my observation seems to indicate "open marriages" are far less stable than simple adulterous ones.

@ S Browne. Well, when something explodes, you hear it. The perfectly content, non-explosive relationships are the ones that go unnoticed. My own open relationship ended non explosively (although bittersweetly--hey, a break-up is difficult, no matter the circumstances).

I've seen a ton of monogamous relationships go down in flames (with and without cheating involved). But I'm NOT concluding (based on my personal observations) that open relationships are more stable than monogamous ones. Or that any kind of relationship is more stable than any other kind--it has to do with the individuals involved. If a match dates a stick of dynamite, there are gonna be fireworks eventually.

That's very true, sofar. I know a lot of open couples now, as, for the past few years, my fiance have been "semi-open". We don't have intercourse with others, but foreplay is ok as long as we're in the same room and we both feel comfortable with the other couple. Those are simply our rules, which we are both happy with, and I think the citical componant of any relationship, whether monogamous or not, is that both people can willingly follow the rules and act with integrity about them and towards each other. It doesn't matter so much what the rules are. But if one person is really straining against the rules, full of resentment, either for having to be monogamous or being expected to accept openness, it won't work.

Very cool, lovelysoul. It always amuses me when people are shocked about open relationships and assume there's all kinds of free-wheeling crazy sex going on. And while that CAN, sometimes, be one of the rewards of an open relationship (if that's the *kind* of open relationship you have), people don't often realize the amount of maturity, communication, respect, patience and courtesy that goes into them. Come to think of it, those are the ingredients of any good relationship, whether open or monogamous.

ie, basically what you just said.

My wife and I have had an open relationship since 2003 and it works for us... but it has to work for her first (before it works for us)...

When a man comes on to her and she is seduced, I am always present... It is a wonderful thing to behold... she then has two men pleasing her.

There is an alternative to jealousy. It is call compersion. Beats Viagra!

pretty simple. Not compatible, LW, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise. He has changed, now he likes and wants in his life something you aren't ok with. So stop wishing and go fishing. Plenty of less stinky fish in the sea.

It was a very good day for the crooks. Bad guys, paedophiles and corrupt politicians are able to sleep more soundly now that the most significant surveillance publication on Earth has gone.